zealex.9410 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. > > That. . . makes zero sense. You do understand that "instant" is not a function of effort, right? It's like saying that "this food is so good, it's practically light speed!" or "that apple is so red, it's almost frozen!" > > >Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. > > Word choice matters. "Easy gratification" would be accurate, yes, that's exactly what we're asking for. > > >Nitpicking doesn't change the essence of the request, or its consequences. It. Cannot. Happen. Simple as that. > > Why not? It used to cost $60 to play the base Tryia game, and now it costs zero. Things change. It. Can. Happen. Simple as that. > Not to its full extend. To experience the full base game you still very much have to buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > To pretend for a moment that the question was asked in good faith, my benchmark for "easy mode" is that it would be something that a random pug of 10 strangers, with no voice chat, no previous experience in the encounter, no meta builds or coordinated team comps, etc., would stand a pretty decent chance of beating the encounter on their first or second try. If at least a few of the members had some previous experience or had checked a guide and knew the basic mechanics, then the odds of clearing it would shoot way up. The difficulty would be balanced against other content in the game, such as dungeons and story missions, and therefore should be suitable to the overwhelming majority of the players. > Oh that kind of easy. I didnt understand before. Great. I love this. I forfit this argument because i cannot win against this. I saw players wiping in T1 fractals and the diference between T1 and T4 with meta group is like 95 percent dps.. You want legendary armor for a part of the game which is for 10 players but can be done by 1 experianced easily. OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > To pretend for a moment that the question was asked in good faith, my benchmark for "easy mode" is that it would be something that a random pug of 10 strangers, with no voice chat, no previous experience in the encounter, no meta builds or coordinated team comps, etc., would stand a pretty decent chance of beating the encounter on their first or second try. If at least a few of the members had some previous experience or had checked a guide and knew the basic mechanics, then the odds of clearing it would shoot way up. The difficulty would be balanced against other content in the game, such as dungeons and story missions, and therefore should be suitable to the overwhelming majority of the players. > > > Nail absolutely hit on the head. Stick on a much longer timescale for gathering materials for normal mode unique legendary gear and we are golden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Substatic.6958 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"derd.6413" said: > gw2 raids already is among the easiest in the mmo market and the whole point of raids was difficult content that isn't for everybody. > > tldr: no They are the among the easiest yet among the most difficult to get into and most class restrictive. Poor game design. I can log into WoW right now and instantly find a group for the latest Mythic Raid, which is considerably more harder than anything in GW2. Several groups. On any class I play. GW2, lol...nope. I rather they fix classes so that a group will invite anything rather than waiting 5 hours in lfg for a chrono or druid or 5 elementalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > Why not? It used to cost $60 to play the base Tryia game, and now it costs zero. Things change. It. Can. Happen. Simple as that. > > Not to its full extend. To experience the full base game you still very much have to buy it. Last time i checked you didn't have to pay $60 for that, and for that less than $60 you got more than full core. So yeah, things have changed. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > It's not about creating statics or filling them. We often pug just to fill the number, and many statics do just that. You can't just wave that away and say it doesn't concern the statics, it does. Then we're back to that TexZero's "raids aren't supposed to be pugged" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 If Ohoni (he has been doing this for 2 years now after all) would spend as much effort on learning the raids as he would spend on discussing easy raids on forums, he would be able to low man Dhuum CM by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > The probability of each situation happening in real life is exactly zero. 0 = 0, so there. > > > > Again, I'm more and more convinced that you don't understand how statistics work. Maybe stop making examples that involve "statistics." It's. . . not helping. > > In this case it is not a question of statistics, it's an impossibility. Yeah. . . not exactly making your case that you "get" statistics. > @"Linken.6345" said: >a slipery slope have a start point he/she is argueing that your position is the starting point of that slope. Which is wrong, because there's no slope here. You can't just "declare" a slippery slope any time you don't approve of a single step. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Why not? It used to cost $60 to play the base Tryia game, and now it costs zero. Things change. It. Can. Happen. Simple as that. > > > > Not to its full extend. To experience the full base game you still very much have to buy it. Not my point. The game people bought for $60 in 2012 (and more) you can now get for $0. Now, if you want to quibble over a few features locked out by that, then let's go back to right before HoT's launch, when you could 100% buy the feature complete version of the game for around $10. That's still a massive discount off the original price, and that's ok, because people who bought it at the original price had years to play the game for what they paid. The same is true here, maybe easy mode could be viewed as a "discount" of the current version, but people playing the current version have had years to play that version and obtain its rewards before anyone playing easy mode would have that opportunity. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: >Oh that kind of easy. I didnt understand before. Great. I love this. I forfit this argument because i cannot win against this. I saw players wiping in T1 fractals and the diference between T1 and T4 with meta group is like 95 percent dps.. You want legendary armor for a part of the game which is for 10 players but can be done by 1 experianced easily. OK. Well, it still shouldn't be easy to solo most of these encounters, and might not even be possible, but even if it were, it would be much more efficient if you brought a full party because it would take way less time. > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > If Ohoni (he has been doing this for 2 years now after all) would spend as much effort on learning the raids as he would spend on discussing easy raids on forums, he would be able to low man Dhuum CM by now. That's a given, but I have no interest in putting this sort of effort into learning the raids, since that would not be a pleasant experience for me. I tried that "do something, even if you hate it" philosophy for getting the Ascension, and after getting it came out hollow, happy that I had it, but still angry about the dozens of hours wasted in PvP working towards it. Never again. I will not invest my time in a gameplay mode that I do not enjoy just to get a reward, and neither will I just meekly accept that this reward is permanently off the table. The reward is only locked behind raids because the developers *decided* that it should be, and they can, and should, decide differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze Dos Cavalos.6132 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > If Ohoni (he has been doing this for 2 years now after all) would spend as much effort on learning the raids as he would spend on discussing easy raids on forums, he would be able to low man Dhuum CM by now. Exactly! So much energy for the forums but no energy to play the game :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 22, 2018 Author Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > If Ohoni (he has been doing this for 2 years now after all) would spend as much effort on learning the raids as he would spend on discussing easy raids on forums, he would be able to low man Dhuum CM by now. > > Exactly! > So much energy for the forums but no energy to play the game :( This argument is pretty funny, I mean if you hadn't spent so much time on gw2 or the forums u could be a millionaire IRL right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said: > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > If Ohoni (he has been doing this for 2 years now after all) would spend as much effort on learning the raids as he would spend on discussing easy raids on forums, he would be able to low man Dhuum CM by now. > > > > Exactly! > > So much energy for the forums but no energy to play the game :( > > This argument is pretty funny, I mean if you hadn't spent so much time on gw2 or the forums u could be a millionaire IRL right? If only raiders didn't spend so much energy trying to protect their little niche status, Anet may have built easy raids years ago and the raids would be buzzing with players while Anet was busy investing much more in raids :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > It's not about creating statics or filling them. We often pug just to fill the number, and many statics do just that. You can't just wave that away and say it doesn't concern the statics, it does. > Then we're back to that TexZero's "raids aren't supposed to be pugged" argument. Still not sure why this triggers you. They aren't. Raiding in pretty much every game is designed as a group experience. You mileage will vary if you opt to pug and without strict requirements you're likely to find yourself with people who do not care. Hence it's not designed as an experience to be pugged. It can be, but ultimately raids are built on forming groups that are willing to learn and grow together, be it guilds, friends or acquaintances. Changing it to a fully automated system removes the portion of personal responsibility and collective growth that raids have. To deny that is pretty foolish. I've already said this before but if you really want to fix raids you fix the group finding tools first and foremost. It's much better if people can find like-minded players who play around the same times as them and are willing to work together than it is to attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > Still not sure why this triggers you. They aren't. >Raiding in pretty much every game is designed as a group experience. You mileage will vary if you opt to pug and without strict requirements you're likely to find yourself with people who do not care. >Hence it's not designed as an experience to be pugged. It can be, but ultimately raids are built on forming groups that are willing to learn and grow together, be it guilds, friends or acquaintances. But you understand that this argument is a bit like saying "you cannot have a carriage without a horse." Yes, a raid with a non-pug group has its own unique character, and some people will enjoy that sort of thing, but that doesn't mean that there isn't also a role in the game for raid encounters that are designed to be reliably pugged. Progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > Still not sure why this triggers you. They aren't. > > >Raiding in pretty much every game is designed as a group experience. You mileage will vary if you opt to pug and without strict requirements you're likely to find yourself with people who do not care. > > >Hence it's not designed as an experience to be pugged. It can be, but ultimately raids are built on forming groups that are willing to learn and grow together, be it guilds, friends or acquaintances. > > But you understand that this argument is a bit like saying "you cannot have a carriage without a horse." Yes, a raid with a non-pug group has its own unique character, and some people will enjoy that sort of thing, but that doesn't mean that there isn't also a role in the game for raid encounters that are designed to be reliably pugged. > > Progress. Actually, it does mean that there's no design space for pugging. That's what designing encounters is about. Especially if you want them to be challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > It's not about creating statics or filling them. We often pug just to fill the number, and many statics do just that. You can't just wave that away and say it doesn't concern the statics, it does. > > Then we're back to that TexZero's "raids aren't supposed to be pugged" argument. > > Still not sure why this triggers you. They aren't. > > Raiding in pretty much every game is designed as a group experience. You mileage will vary if you opt to pug and without strict requirements you're likely to find yourself with people who do not care. > > Hence it's not designed as an experience to be pugged. It can be, but ultimately raids are built on forming groups that are willing to learn and grow together, be it guilds, friends or acquaintances. > > Changing it to a fully automated system removes the portion of personal responsibility and collective growth that raids have. To deny that is pretty foolish. > > I've already said this before but if you really want to fix raids you fix the group finding tools first and foremost. It's much better if people can find like-minded players who play around the same times as them and are willing to work together than it is to attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. > > > > > A pug is a group, and just like all the other AAA mmorpg, puggle raids are heaving with people enjoying the content. To make raids puggable its not the LFG that's the issue its the tuning of the instance to reflect the fact that pugs want to play them (which generally means less one shot mechanics, less bullet storms etc) for an instance to be puggable it needs represent a reasonable challenge to the average player. Something that requires repeated wipe/retry tactic/wipe/retrie... over and over will never work for a pug group - and that's why other AAA mmorpg are designed accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said: > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > If Ohoni (he has been doing this for 2 years now after all) would spend as much effort on learning the raids as he would spend on discussing easy raids on forums, he would be able to low man Dhuum CM by now. > > > > Exactly! > > So much energy for the forums but no energy to play the game :( > > This argument is pretty funny, I mean if you hadn't spent so much time on gw2 or the forums u could be a millionaire IRL right? Hard work in real life will rarely makes you a millionaire. That usually takes a ruthless personality (either by you or your ancestors whose heritage you are profitting from) that exploits other people for their own gain. I know plenty of people who put an insane amount of work in their real life jobs but can barely afford a vacation per year, let alone dream of ever have a million on their bank account. > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said: > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > > If Ohoni (he has been doing this for 2 years now after all) would spend as much effort on learning the raids as he would spend on discussing easy raids on forums, he would be able to low man Dhuum CM by now. > > > > > > Exactly! > > > So much energy for the forums but no energy to play the game :( > > > > This argument is pretty funny, I mean if you hadn't spent so much time on gw2 or the forums u could be a millionaire IRL right? > > If only raiders didn't spend so much energy trying to protect their little niche status, Anet may have built easy raids years ago and the raids would be buzzing with players while Anet was busy investing much more in raids :P That is not how it works. Fractals have an easy mode, yet we are lucky if we even get two new fractals per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > A pug is a group, and just like all the other AAA mmorpg, puggle raids are heaving with people enjoying the content. To make raids puggable its not the LFG that's the issue its the tuning of the instance to reflect the fact that pugs want to play them (which generally means less one shot mechanics, less bullet storms etc) for an instance to be puggable it needs represent a reasonable challenge to the average player. Something that requires repeated wipe/retry tactic/wipe/retrie... over and over will never work for a pug group - and that's why other AAA mmorpg are designed accordingly. I'm not denying that a pug is a group. A pug can be a very organized machine of 10 competent people or it can be a clown fiesta. There's really not much of a middle ground there. Opening the LFG to a completely automated system skews harder on the clown fiesta side in most cases because there's no discernible way to filter appropriately. This is even more evident in GW2 since we lack all forms of a proper role system. Additionally pug raids in those other games you mention more often than not have something that this crowd of "easy mode" purist are against compromising for and that's lesser quality and quantity of loot. What those games easier modes also fail to do properly is appropriately teach a what normal or even hard mode is because what is fatal in those modes has to be changed for the "pug" raids to be non-fatal. So if you want the easy mode that matches the industry standard, in which case go nuts but remember its package deal. You don't get to selectively remove the elements you don't like so you can reap all the rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > It's not about creating statics or filling them. We often pug just to fill the number, and many statics do just that. You can't just wave that away and say it doesn't concern the statics, it does. > > Then we're back to that TexZero's "raids aren't supposed to be pugged" argument. > > Still not sure why this triggers you. They aren't. It doesn't trigger me. I just find it hard to treat it seriously when it's used to ignore pugs during the discussion about a feature meant strictly for them. I mean, seriously, statics won't queue. Even if they'll have one or two spots to fill, they still won't queue. And if someone joins that static, and decides to quit after seeing one or two encounters... well, if that person would rather pug than go with an organized group, then it would speak volumes about quality of said group. Such a person definitely wouldn't quit due to the existence of queuing system. They'd quit because _the group was bad_. Therefore any worries about this system need to be considered only within the context of pug groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > A pug is a group, and just like all the other AAA mmorpg, puggle raids are heaving with people enjoying the content. To make raids puggable its not the LFG that's the issue its the tuning of the instance to reflect the fact that pugs want to play them (which generally means less one shot mechanics, less bullet storms etc) for an instance to be puggable it needs represent a reasonable challenge to the average player. Something that requires repeated wipe/retry tactic/wipe/retrie... over and over will never work for a pug group - and that's why other AAA mmorpg are designed accordingly. > > I'm not denying that a pug is a group. > A pug can be a very organized machine of 10 competent people or it can be a clown fiesta. > There's really not much of a middle ground there. > > Opening the LFG to a completely automated system skews harder on the clown fiesta side in most cases because there's no discernible way to filter appropriately. This is even more evident in GW2 since we lack all forms of a proper role system. > > Additionally pug raids in those other games you mention more often than not have something that this crowd of "easy mode" purist are against compromising for and that's lesser quality and quantity of loot. What those games easier modes also fail to do properly is appropriately teach a what normal or even hard mode is because what is fatal in those modes has to be changed for the "pug" raids to be non-fatal. > > So if you want the easy mode that matches the industry standard, in which case go nuts but remember its package deal. You don't get to selectively remove the elements you don't like so you can reap all the rewards. > no such thing as a package deal, GW2 has no gear tiers, so the reward differential is based on time. Raiders really are wriggling and Squirming to try and justify why their niche should be the only PVE players that should have access to legendary gear, but thats patently wrong, i.e its suggesting wvw, pvp and raiders should be the only ones to get access to legendary gear.... PVE is very important in GW, and PVE players (the majority) have just as much right to ask for access to opportunities to get 10 man instances abd legendary gear as any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > It's not about creating statics or filling them. We often pug just to fill the number, and many statics do just that. You can't just wave that away and say it doesn't concern the statics, it does. > > > Then we're back to that TexZero's "raids aren't supposed to be pugged" argument. > > > > Still not sure why this triggers you. They aren't. > It doesn't trigger me. I just find it hard to treat it seriously when it's used to ignore pugs during the discussion about a feature meant strictly for them. > > I mean, seriously, statics won't queue. Even if they'll have one or two spots to fill, they still won't queue. > > And if someone joins that static, and decides to quit after seeing one or two encounters... well, if that person would rather pug than go with an organized group, then it would speak volumes about quality of said group. Such a person definitely wouldn't quit due to the existence of queuing system. They'd quit because _the group was bad_. > > Therefore any worries about this system need to be considered only within the context of pug groups. > > I'm not using it in the context of filling an existing group, not sure how you got to that conclusion. I'm strictly talking about the basis of design and forming a group of 10 strangers. Full Automation fails at this. That's part of the reason why LFG isn't going to move to Full Automation even with an update should one happen. The lack of LFG at the onset of raids showcased the initial design space that was carved out for raids. Now, again that doesnt mean groups didnt pug or pug successfully, but what people here tend to ask for is a no-fail state pug raid. The big difference between what how people pugged then vrs now is people who pugged then stuck with it and some of them even formed statics based on it. Again not debating the merits of LFG, what we have now is functional, but it's not what the easy mode crowd wants. What they want wont work in the design space set out for GW2's current raids, it's really just that cut and dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Then Anet should of made raids, guild only, however they didn’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Then Anet should of made raids, guild only, however they didn’t. Does not change the intent of design. It was not designed in such a way to be pugged. Just because it can be doesn't mean that's what they are designed around. Whether you like this or not does not change the intent and certainly wont have them changing future implementation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Then Anet should of made raids, guild only, however they didn’t. > > Does not change the intent of design. > It was not designed in such a way to be pugged. Just because it can be doesn't mean that's what they are designed around. > > Whether you like this or not does not change the intent and certainly wont have them changing future implementation. Things change, devs change. Who knows, some new devs could jump on board to raids and make alterations. Probably why Anet is sitting in the gray on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I would just like to take one of my buddies, who doesn’t have a lot of opportunities to get online to hop in and try some of the raid content and see what happened to certain gw1 characters, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Then Anet should of made raids, guild only, however they didn’t. > > > > Does not change the intent of design. > > It was not designed in such a way to be pugged. Just because it can be doesn't mean that's what they are designed around. > > > > Whether you like this or not does not change the intent and certainly wont have them changing future implementation. > > Things change, devs change. Who knows, some new devs could jump on board to raids and make alterations. Probably why Anet is sitting in the gray on this one. If them taking no action to change it is your definition of them sitting in the grey that's one way to think of it. Or you know they could still be upholding their design ideas and not changing it because it's not worth it to sweat a triviality of a even smaller percent of people completing pug raids to those that don't. As in PuG it at your own risk, but be assured your experience is going to be significantly worse than what they designed it for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > Then Anet should of made raids, guild only, however they didn’t. > > > > > > Does not change the intent of design. > > > It was not designed in such a way to be pugged. Just because it can be doesn't mean that's what they are designed around. > > > > > > Whether you like this or not does not change the intent and certainly wont have them changing future implementation. > > > > Things change, devs change. Who knows, some new devs could jump on board to raids and make alterations. Probably why Anet is sitting in the gray on this one. > > If them taking no action to change it is your definition of them sitting in the grey that's one way to think of it. > Or you know they could still be upholding their design ideas and not changing it because it's not worth it to sweat a triviality of a even smaller percent of people completing pug raids to those that don't. > > As in PuG it at your own risk, but be assured your experience is going to be significantly worse than what they designed it for. Nah, Tex, it’s Anet using language like this that is keeping them in the gray >We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. If it was white, they would say that they will be adding an easy mode. Black would we will never add an easy mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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