Please Overhaul Raids.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

> > > >

> > > > But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

> > >

> > > Same old raider rhetoric, you fail to understand that the issue is the _style_ of instance the current raiding represents, ALL other AAA mmorpg and raiding communities have accepted this and moved on, they get what is good for the game, not just personal needs by a minority. The majority are not interested in the wipe/learn a pattern/wipe/learn a pattern style of instance.

> >

> > And that's fine. The raids are created for those interested. And that's also fine. It's called "diversity". *This* is good for the game. Because it doesn't offer a binary "eiter-or" choice. It gives both groups something to enjoy, as opposed to giving just one of them. And again, what *this* game offers to its casual playerbase is **vastly** superior in quantity.

>

> So then what is the argument against offering the same hand to players who would enjoy raids if they weren't so cutthroat?

 

Already got fractals or dungeons depending on skill level of the team.

[Xantaria.8726]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

> > > >

> > > > But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

> > >

> > > Same old raider rhetoric, you fail to understand that the issue is the _style_ of instance the current raiding represents, ALL other AAA mmorpg and raiding communities have accepted this and moved on, they get what is good for the game, not just personal needs by a minority. The majority are not interested in the wipe/learn a pattern/wipe/learn a pattern style of instance.

> >

> > And that's fine. The raids are created for those interested. And that's also fine. It's called "diversity". *This* is good for the game. Because it doesn't offer a binary "eiter-or" choice. It gives both groups something to enjoy, as opposed to giving just one of them. And again, what *this* game offers to its casual playerbase is **vastly** superior in quantity.

>

> So then what is the argument against offering the same hand to players who would enjoy raids if they weren't so cutthroat?

 

I dont think that it would actual be a problem for anyone if raids had an easy, normal(which is the current difficulty) and a hard mode(cms) as long as the loot is heavily nerfed in easy mode and the other two wont be nerfed in terms of difficulty. The bigger problem i rather see is if its worth it.

If Anet decides that the raid team should rather make a easy mode then new raids, many will rather complain since it already takes to long for new ones to release.

If Anet decides to put in some from the other teams, the modes of those teams will have delayed content, making the playerbase of those modes complain (which are probably more than people complaing about not getting into raids).

GW2 has many improvements which have to be done, yet their budget is limited since they try to fullfile many whises as possible, while not having a monthly payment, while they themselfs need to make some money with microtransactions which are often questioned by this community. So in my opinion i think its fair to say that they cant make everyone happy.

 

Otherwise what i would find cool if they stopped all new contentreleases and overhaul the whole game a little for a complete year, like old elite and core professions, split wvw, pvp and pve completly, rebalance each afterwards and so on. But i dont think that many will agree to such an idea^^.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > > > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

> > > > >

> > > > > But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

> > > >

> > > > Same old raider rhetoric, you fail to understand that the issue is the _style_ of instance the current raiding represents, ALL other AAA mmorpg and raiding communities have accepted this and moved on, they get what is good for the game, not just personal needs by a minority. The majority are not interested in the wipe/learn a pattern/wipe/learn a pattern style of instance.

> > >

> > > And that's fine. The raids are created for those interested. And that's also fine. It's called "diversity". *This* is good for the game. Because it doesn't offer a binary "eiter-or" choice. It gives both groups something to enjoy, as opposed to giving just one of them. And again, what *this* game offers to its casual playerbase is **vastly** superior in quantity.

> >

> > So then what is the argument against offering the same hand to players who would enjoy raids if they weren't so cutthroat?

>

> Already got fractals or dungeons depending on skill level of the team.

 

That's not an argument against offering the same hand to players who would enjoy raids if they weren't so cutthroat, that's what's called a "non sequitur."

 

> @"Xantaria.8726" said:

>I dont think that it would actual be a problem for anyone if raids had an easy, normal(which is the current difficulty) and a hard mode(cms) as long as the loot is heavily nerfed in easy mode and the other two wont be nerfed in terms of difficulty.

 

What is your grounds for the rewards being "heavily nerfed" in easy mode, beyond punishing people who are different than yourself?

[Turin.6921]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> That's not an argument

 


 

 

[Xantaria.8726]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > > > > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

> > > > >

> > > > > Same old raider rhetoric, you fail to understand that the issue is the _style_ of instance the current raiding represents, ALL other AAA mmorpg and raiding communities have accepted this and moved on, they get what is good for the game, not just personal needs by a minority. The majority are not interested in the wipe/learn a pattern/wipe/learn a pattern style of instance.

> > > >

> > > > And that's fine. The raids are created for those interested. And that's also fine. It's called "diversity". *This* is good for the game. Because it doesn't offer a binary "eiter-or" choice. It gives both groups something to enjoy, as opposed to giving just one of them. And again, what *this* game offers to its casual playerbase is **vastly** superior in quantity.

> > >

> > > So then what is the argument against offering the same hand to players who would enjoy raids if they weren't so cutthroat?

> >

> > Already got fractals or dungeons depending on skill level of the team.

>

> That's not an argument against offering the same hand to players who would enjoy raids if they weren't so cutthroat, that's what's called a "non sequitur."

>

> > @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> >I dont think that it would actual be a problem for anyone if raids had an easy, normal(which is the current difficulty) and a hard mode(cms) as long as the loot is heavily nerfed in easy mode and the other two wont be nerfed in terms of difficulty.

>

> What is your grounds for the rewards being "heavily nerfed" in easy mode, beyond punishing people who are different than yourself?

 

You do less, so you should be rewarded less. Thats just commen sense. Just like you get better loot from t1-4 you go up in fractals. Just like you get more loot if you win in pvp. Just as you get more loot if you do 3 events instead of 1. It has nothing to do with punishment nor do i discriminate others by this. For examble no li or only 1li after a whole wing is cleared, half the gold and magnetite-shards. Dropchances can stay the same in my opinion. You said many times that you want to get at least a farmable way to get armor instead of the current raiddifficulty, even if it takes longer. well this would be the case. of course raids would then actual be easier, like one shot mechanics rather remove half of the health bar, other heavy attacks or mechanics like the exploding field of vg only does half the dmg when not enough people stand inside, only 2 instead of 4 need to be in there and so on.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > That's not an argument

>

> 

>

>

 

I'm not sure what you mean. You can disagree with my position there, but I was using the term correctly. "a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong."

 

> @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> You do less, so you should be rewarded less.

 

And I can agree with that, but I think "heavily" is a bit strong. Less quantity, sure, maybe like 1/4 to 1/3 of whatever normal mode offers, but it should still be suitably rewarding in and of itself as an activity. From what raiders have been saying, it sounds like it would be better to buff the current raid rewards rather than nerf them too heavily for easy mode.

 

>For examble no li or only 1li after a whole wing is cleared, half the gold and magnetite-shards.

 

I was thinking that you could get a "Fragmented Insight" and some "Magnetite Splinters," which you could combine 3:1/4:1 into LIs and shards. That way it's more flexible as to which order you take them in.

 

>of course raids would then actual be easier, like one shot mechanics rather remove half of the health bar, other heavy attacks or mechanics like the exploding field of vg only does half the dmg when not enough people stand inside, only 2 instead of 4 need to be in there and so on.

 

Yeah, personally I prefer that they leave in as many "success conditions" as possible, and just reduce the penalty for failing them to a manageable level. That way if you fail it, you know you failed it and can learn from that, rather than if it only needs two people and even if you try to get 4 in, there's no way to tell whether you did or not.

[Xantaria.8726]

> > @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> > You do less, so you should be rewarded less.

>

> And I can agree with that, but I think "heavily" is a bit strong. Less quantity, sure, maybe like 1/4 to 1/3 of whatever normal mode offers, but it should still be suitably rewarding in and of itself as an activity. From what raiders have been saying, it sounds like it would be better to buff the current raid rewards rather than nerf them too heavily for easy mode.

 

>

> >For examble no li or only 1li after a whole wing is cleared, half the gold and magnetite-shards.

>

> I was thinking that you could get a "Fragmented Insight" and some "Magnetite Splinters," which you could combine 3:1/4:1 into LIs and shards. That way it's more flexible as to which order you take them in.

 

That is what i meant with heavily.^^ i wasnt meaning that ppl should get almost no loot by this. But what i meant is that you should feel a difference in loot when doing easy, normal or hard. The idea with fragments is actual a pretty good idea, even though i would leave the magnetite as shards and just give less of them^^.

 

> >of course raids would then actual be easier, like one shot mechanics rather remove half of the health bar, other heavy attacks or mechanics like the exploding field of vg only does half the dmg when not enough people stand inside, only 2 instead of 4 need to be in there and so on.

>

> Yeah, personally I prefer that they leave in as many "success conditions" as possible, and just reduce the penalty for failing them to a manageable level. That way if you fail it, you know you failed it and can learn from that, rather than if it only needs two people and even if you try to get 4 in, there's no way to tell whether you did or not.

 

Aye, this would make it easier for people to learn mechanics. Of yourse people can now argument over this if it is really needed, where i myself dont think that many mechanics are actual hard to learn, its rather that many dont get to learn them. But i think what many can actual agree on is that easymode itself would harm noone if it would be introduced that way is discribed, leaving loot and difficutly like they are in normal and hard modes (maybe make cms to monthlyloot though or nerf reward and make it weekly), while easy mode still gives a little loot (maybe half or 1/3 of normal), but therefore have still all mechanics in it, yet with many being nerfed in terms of dmg.

Even better would be the system of fractals, that you get loot for each difficulty, and by doing the higher tiers you get the loot of the lowers, but thats just my opinion.

the question is rather how anet could invest time in creating them without delaying its current paste.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> The idea with fragments is actual a pretty good idea, even though i would leave the magnetite as shards and just give less of them^^.

 

Maybe, and that might work, some things give few shards though so splitting them evenly could be an issue. Really since easy mode should succeed most of the time, they could probably dispense with the "pity shards" anyway.

 

>Even better would be the system of fractals, that you get loot for each difficulty, and by doing the higher tiers you get the loot of the lowers, but thats just my opinion.

the question is rather how anet could invest time in creating them without delaying its current paste.

 

I still strongly believe that this should not take an excessive amount of work, and that implementing it can mostly be fit into existing schedules. If not, there's probably *some* space in the calendar where they could find some time to work on it.

[Xantaria.8726]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> > The idea with fragments is actual a pretty good idea, even though i would leave the magnetite as shards and just give less of them^^.

>

> Maybe, and that might work, some things give few shards though so splitting them evenly could be an issue. Really since easy mode should succeed most of the time, they could probably dispense with the "pity shards" anyway.

>

> >Even better would be the system of fractals, that you get loot for each difficulty, and by doing the higher tiers you get the loot of the lowers, but thats just my opinion.

> the question is rather how anet could invest time in creating them without delaying its current paste.

>

> I still strongly believe that this should not take an excessive amount of work, and that implementing it can mostly be fit into existing schedules. If not, there's probably *some* space in the calendar where they could find some time to work on it.

 

Hard to tell, that ball is in anets hand i suppose^^. But the discussion in here is rather repeating itself instead of progressing in any way in my opinion, mostly with all looking at the subject in a personal then a neutral way.

 

[TexZero.7910]

I like the idea where they get nothing personally.

 

Just like SAB infantile mode doesnt give you unique loot. This way all the people who complain about wanting access can have their access and those who want loot can go get loot in normal mode.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

> > >

> > > But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

> >

> > Same old raider rhetoric, you fail to understand that the issue is the _style_ of instance the current raiding represents, ALL other AAA mmorpg and raiding communities have accepted this and moved on, they get what is good for the game, not just personal needs by a minority. The majority are not interested in the wipe/learn a pattern/wipe/learn a pattern style of instance.

>

> And that's fine. The raids are created for those interested. And that's also fine. It's called "diversity". *This* is good for the game. Because it doesn't offer a binary "eiter-or" choice. It gives both groups something to enjoy, as opposed to giving just one of them. And again, what *this* game offers to its casual playerbase is **vastly** superior in quantity.

 

yes thats fine..for raiders, its however diversity for a niche not the majority. Your basically arguing to screw PVE players if they dont raid - well sorry, every other significant gamestyle in GW has legendary armor, so should the majority of PVE players, not just raiders. Imagine they introduced 'legendary++ content that was only available to players who invested thousands of hours in a new housing/crafting meta game - would raiders be happy then, oooh no.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> I like the idea where they get nothing personally.

>

> Just like SAB infantile mode doesnt give you unique loot. This way all the people who complain about wanting access can have their access and those who want loot can go get loot in normal mode.

 

The difference is, we aren't asking for Infantile mode, we';re asking for normal mode. The current mode is only Tribulation mode. If the raids were balanced like SAB it wouldn't be an issue.

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > I like the idea where they get nothing personally.

> >

> > Just like SAB infantile mode doesnt give you unique loot. This way all the people who complain about wanting access can have their access and those who want loot can go get loot in normal mode.

>

> The difference is, we aren't asking for Infantile mode, we';re asking for normal mode. The current mode is only Tribulation mode. If the raids were balanced like SAB it wouldn't be an issue.

 

It is a normal mode. Challenge motes are the trib mode.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > I like the idea where they get nothing personally.

> > >

> > > Just like SAB infantile mode doesnt give you unique loot. This way all the people who complain about wanting access can have their access and those who want loot can go get loot in normal mode.

> >

> > The difference is, we aren't asking for Infantile mode, we';re asking for normal mode. The current mode is only Tribulation mode. If the raids were balanced like SAB it wouldn't be an issue.

>

> It is a normal mode. Challenge motes are the trib mode.

 

Not in terms of balance. SAB normal mode is a lot more casual than raids on default. If raids were as easy to complete as SAB on normal mode then we wouldn't have any issues.

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > I like the idea where they get nothing personally.

> > > >

> > > > Just like SAB infantile mode doesnt give you unique loot. This way all the people who complain about wanting access can have their access and those who want loot can go get loot in normal mode.

> > >

> > > The difference is, we aren't asking for Infantile mode, we';re asking for normal mode. The current mode is only Tribulation mode. If the raids were balanced like SAB it wouldn't be an issue.

> >

> > It is a normal mode. Challenge motes are the trib mode.

>

> Not in terms of balance. SAB normal mode is a lot more casual than raids on default. If raids were as easy to complete as SAB on normal mode then we wouldn't have any issues.

 

But raids are raids, not SAB. You are comparing apples to oranges. They are two entirely different game types.

 

Raids, as they are currently, are definitely casual enough. You could make many encounters a lot more challenging.

 

We do not need an easy mode. I have never struggled to introduce a new person to raiding and they have always liked it. No one has ever found them too hard.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > I like the idea where they get nothing personally.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just like SAB infantile mode doesnt give you unique loot. This way all the people who complain about wanting access can have their access and those who want loot can go get loot in normal mode.

> > > >

> > > > The difference is, we aren't asking for Infantile mode, we';re asking for normal mode. The current mode is only Tribulation mode. If the raids were balanced like SAB it wouldn't be an issue.

> > >

> > > It is a normal mode. Challenge motes are the trib mode.

> >

> > Not in terms of balance. SAB normal mode is a lot more casual than raids on default. If raids were as easy to complete as SAB on normal mode then we wouldn't have any issues.

>

> But raids are raids, not SAB. You are comparing apples to oranges. They are two entirely different game types.

>

> Raids, as they are currently, are definitely casual enough. You could make many encounters a lot more challenging.

>

> We do not need an easy mode. I have never struggled to introduce a new person to raiding and they have always liked it. No one has ever found them too hard.

 

the current raids represent a style of gameplay (rote/wipe over and over until you learn the pattern) that the majority of people are not interesting in. This isnt about application or skill, its about style. The gaming community is older now , people know what raids are about, and don't find this style attractive anymore. Bear in mind some have raided for 10s of thousands of hours, wiping over and over to learn a pattern gets dull fast. Normal mode raids offers a totally different experience where things are a lot more relaxed and fun - that's what gaming is about.

[Tyson.5160]

I’m all for raids to have their unique skins, Dhuum armor, Matthias staff, Vale Guardian sword, etc. However placing Legendary Armor behind a wall that even Anet says is not everyone. Seems sadistic to me.

 

Legendary armor should of been more like a collection like the Gen 2 weapons. I still think it’s a bad call.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > I like the idea where they get nothing personally.

> > > >

> > > > Just like SAB infantile mode doesnt give you unique loot. This way all the people who complain about wanting access can have their access and those who want loot can go get loot in normal mode.

> > >

> > > The difference is, we aren't asking for Infantile mode, we';re asking for normal mode. The current mode is only Tribulation mode. If the raids were balanced like SAB it wouldn't be an issue.

> >

> > It is a normal mode. Challenge motes are the trib mode.

>

> Not in terms of balance. SAB normal mode is a lot more casual than raids on default. If raids were as easy to complete as SAB on normal mode then we wouldn't have any issues.

 

Not in your terms of balance.

 

But if we went with your terms for balance there'd be no raids anyway which makes everything you say a non-starter.

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > I like the idea where they get nothing personally.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just like SAB infantile mode doesnt give you unique loot. This way all the people who complain about wanting access can have their access and those who want loot can go get loot in normal mode.

> > > > >

> > > > > The difference is, we aren't asking for Infantile mode, we';re asking for normal mode. The current mode is only Tribulation mode. If the raids were balanced like SAB it wouldn't be an issue.

> > > >

> > > > It is a normal mode. Challenge motes are the trib mode.

> > >

> > > Not in terms of balance. SAB normal mode is a lot more casual than raids on default. If raids were as easy to complete as SAB on normal mode then we wouldn't have any issues.

> >

> > But raids are raids, not SAB. You are comparing apples to oranges. They are two entirely different game types.

> >

> > Raids, as they are currently, are definitely casual enough. You could make many encounters a lot more challenging.

> >

> > We do not need an easy mode. I have never struggled to introduce a new person to raiding and they have always liked it. No one has ever found them too hard.

>

> the current raids represent a style of gameplay (rote/wipe over and over until you learn the pattern) that the majority of people are not interesting in. This isnt about application or skill, its about style. The gaming community is older now , people know what raids are about, and don't find this style attractive anymore. Bear in mind some have raided for 10s of thousands of hours, wiping over and over to learn a pattern gets dull fast. Normal mode raids offers a totally different experience where things are a lot more relaxed and fun - that's what gaming is about.

 

That's not my experience as a guild and raid leader - we get loads of new players into this guild and we introduce many people into raiding. Some people are just not interested in raids as a whole - these same people dont care for group play much in general - but the rest of them have had good experiences learning to raid with the rest of us. Guess we just know how to enjoy wiping ;)

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > I like the idea where they get nothing personally.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just like SAB infantile mode doesnt give you unique loot. This way all the people who complain about wanting access can have their access and those who want loot can go get loot in normal mode.

> > > >

> > > > The difference is, we aren't asking for Infantile mode, we';re asking for normal mode. The current mode is only Tribulation mode. If the raids were balanced like SAB it wouldn't be an issue.

> > >

> > > It is a normal mode. Challenge motes are the trib mode.

> >

> > Not in terms of balance. SAB normal mode is a lot more casual than raids on default. If raids were as easy to complete as SAB on normal mode then we wouldn't have any issues.

>

> Not in your terms of balance.

>

> But if we went with your terms for balance there'd be no raids anyway which makes everything you say a non-starter.

 

I really don't have an issue with raids existing, so long as we can get past this elitist attitude that those who raid are somehow more deserving to anything than those that don't, that those who raid have "earned" anything that those who would participate in an easy mode raid could not. If people like to raid, that's great, but it should be democratized for everyone else too. The distinction between those who enjoy hard mode raids and those who don't should not be "the raiders get all this stuff, and the non-raiders don't," it should just be "the raiders get all this stuff, and so does everyone else."

 

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> That's not my experience as a guild and raid leader - we get loads of new players into this guild and we introduce many people into raiding. Some people are just not interested in raids as a whole - these same people dont care for group play much in general - but the rest of them have had good experiences learning to raid with the rest of us. Guess we just know how to enjoy wiping ;)

 

Yeah, and that's ok if you do. Just don't go in with the expectation that *everyone* is like that, and that what works for you *should* work for them just as well. Don't try to convert people to your way of thinking, accept them for who *they* are and try to figure out what would make *them* happy, knowing that it would be different than what would make *you* happy.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I really don't have an issue with raids existing, so long as we can get past this elitist attitude that those who raid are somehow more deserving to anything than those that don't, that those who raid have "earned" anything that those who would participate in an easy mode raid could not. If people like to raid, that's great, but it should be democratized for everyone else too. The distinction between those who enjoy hard mode raids and those who don't should not be "the raiders get all this stuff, and the non-raiders don't," it should just be "the raiders get all this stuff, and so does everyone else."

 

 

No.

 

That's exactly why it's a non-starter.

Every game out there does this. You want the loot, you play the content.

You do an easier version of said content you get less.

 

This wont change, it would be wise of you to accept it.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

>Every game out there does this.

 

That does not mean that "every game out there" is right.

 

A lot of it comes down to tradition, from old school MMOs doing their best to hash out a tabletop RPG's outcomes, in a system that could not capture what actually made tabletop RPGs work. This culture then got carried from game to game, like a game of telephone, and GW2 ended up with the tail end of that process.

 

Raids are meant to simulate a tabletop game, where a party sits around a table and a DM leads them through a fixed encounter, but think about it, what DM would insist that a group of fun-loving casuals should have to play through a session of torturous trapfests? How long would those players stick around if he did. A good DM adapts to the interests of his players, and presents a campaign that they would enjoy. If the party wants an easy-mode dungeon, they would get an easy-mode dungeon. Likewise, some players enjoy raids as they are, and that's great. Those raids should continue to be available, but they are NOT one-size-fits-all, and those players who aren't fit by the existing raids should have a version that fits them as well.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> >Every game out there does this.

>

> That does not mean that "every game out there" is right.

>

> A lot of it comes down to tradition, from old school MMOs doing their best to hash out a tabletop RPG's outcomes, in a system that could not capture what actually made tabletop RPGs work. This culture then got carried from game to game, like a game of telephone, and GW2 ended up with the tail end of that process.

>

> Raids are meant to simulate a tabletop game, where a party sits around a table and a DM leads them through a fixed encounter, but think about it, what DM would insist that a group of fun-loving casuals should have to play through a session of torturous trapfests? How long would those players stick around if he did. A good DM adapts to the interests of his players, and presents a campaign that they would enjoy. If the party wants an easy-mode dungeon, they would get an easy-mode dungeon. Likewise, some players enjoy raids as they are, and that's great. Those raids should continue to be available, but they are NOT one-size-fits-all, and those players who aren't fit by the existing raids should have a version that fits them as well.

 

Right, so clearly you don't want to raid. Gotcha.

 

So go find a game that caters to what you think it should.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > I really don't have an issue with raids existing, so long as we can get past this elitist attitude that those who raid are somehow more deserving to anything than those that don't, that those who raid have "earned" anything that those who would participate in an easy mode raid could not. If people like to raid, that's great, but it should be democratized for everyone else too. The distinction between those who enjoy hard mode raids and those who don't should not be "the raiders get all this stuff, and the non-raiders don't," it should just be "the raiders get all this stuff, and so does everyone else."

>

>

> No.

>

> That's exactly why it's a non-starter.

> Every game out there does this. You want the loot, you play the content.

> You do an easier version of said content you get less.

>

> This wont change, it would be wise of you to accept it.

 

Come on Tex, you stated before that the normal mode gets everything and an easy mode would get nothing.

 

So I guess we just continue the pattern with.

 

No.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> Right, so clearly you don't want to raid. Gotcha.

 

I've been very clear about what I do and do not want. I definitely do not want to run raids in their current form, I definitely do want to play an easier raid that removes most of the downsides that the current raids have (like requiring team comps, rotations, "training runs," etc.).

 

I don't know why people constantly sound *surprised* when they "realize" this, especially after then 9th or 10th time the *same* person comes to this "revelation."