Please Overhaul Raids.

[nia.4725]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > >As challenge motes already exist, the current raids are normal mode.

> > > >

> > > > Or, they are hard mode, and activating the challenge mode is Challenge mode, which is higher still. It's all relative.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > No. That would imply that they are actually hard. They are not if you play with proper teamplay.

> >

> > Nothing is hard if you do it perfectly. That does not mean that there is not a scale involved.

>

> But you don't need to play the encounter perfectly. There is room for errors.

 

It's still hard. I could tank Xera perfectly and it would be hard still. Because I'd have to be focused on what I'm doing and actively trying to do it well in order to do it perfectly. The fact that someone is able to do a thing perfectly doesn't mean per se that thing isn't hard.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > That is your subjective opinion of what a raid means *to you.*

> >

> > No it isn't. It is their defining feature. Despite trying *so* hard, you can't disregard anything you don't like as "subjective opinion".

> And nor can you assert that what you subjectively value is a statement of fact.

 

Doesn't stop *you* from doing precisely that, so I don't see why not.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > > >As challenge motes already exist, the current raids are normal mode.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or, they are hard mode, and activating the challenge mode is Challenge mode, which is higher still. It's all relative.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > No. That would imply that they are actually hard. They are not if you play with proper teamplay.

> > >

> > > Nothing is hard if you do it perfectly. That does not mean that there is not a scale involved.

> >

> > But you don't need to play the encounter perfectly. There is room for errors.

>

> It's still hard. I could tank Xera perfectly and it would be hard still. Because I'd have to be focused on what I'm doing and actively trying to do it well in order to do it perfectly. The fact that someone is able to do a thing perfectly doesn't mean per se that thing isn't hard.

 

It's hard at first. Not because any of the associated tasks is inherently hard, rather as a result of their overlap and the need of coordination. However, imagine what these fights would look like without these. It would be a generic punchbag for a boss that the team eventually should reduce to 0 hit points. That's it. Teleports, shards, basically anything that requires the players to act as a team would have to go down the drain lest those entitled to win without effort fail somehow. It's pointless. It ruins the experience completely. Might as well just zerg down the world bosses.

[nia.4725]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > > > >As challenge motes already exist, the current raids are normal mode.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or, they are hard mode, and activating the challenge mode is Challenge mode, which is higher still. It's all relative.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No. That would imply that they are actually hard. They are not if you play with proper teamplay.

> > > >

> > > > Nothing is hard if you do it perfectly. That does not mean that there is not a scale involved.

> > >

> > > But you don't need to play the encounter perfectly. There is room for errors.

> >

> > It's still hard. I could tank Xera perfectly and it would be hard still. Because I'd have to be focused on what I'm doing and actively trying to do it well in order to do it perfectly. The fact that someone is able to do a thing perfectly doesn't mean per se that thing isn't hard.

>

> It's hard at first. Not because any of the associated tasks is inherently hard, rather as a result of their overlap and the need of coordination. However, imagine what these fights would look like without these. It would be a generic punchbag for a boss that the team eventually should reduce to 0 hit points. That's it. Teleports, shards, basically anything that requires the players to act as a team would have to go down the drain lest those entitled to win without effort fail somehow. It's pointless. It ruins the experience completely. Might as well just zerg down the world bosses.

 

I think you've misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was just replying to Ohoni, who was saying "Nothing is hard if you do it perfectly. ". And that's not true. That does not mean that I think raids should be toned down -they shouldn't.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> However, imagine what these fights would look like without these. It would be a generic punchbag for a boss that the team eventually should reduce to 0 hit points.

 

How is that any different from what happens in hard mode once everyone gets their motions down?

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> I think you've misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was just replying to Ohoni, who was saying "Nothing is hard if you do it perfectly. ". And that's not true.

 

If it's hard then you're doing it less than perfectly. If you're doing something perfectly, then it's either easy, or impossible, no space in between.

 

[Turin.6921]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> well here is the problem, the majority don't like existing raids, and are quite reasonable asking for normal mode raids just like every other mmorpg. (Some, not all) raiders here don't want the majority to have this style of raid for purely selfish reasons, even though it doesn't impact them, That's a problem isn't it. Basically its 'I dont want you to have fun unless its my type of fun'.

 

This is literally the dialog we are having (at least when i am involved):

A: Why do you object about easy modes being in the game?

B: It will undermine the gameplay and content delivery. What about better QoL to help accessibility instead of an easy mode?

A: Ok lets say it did not affect content delivery.

B: But why does that matter? It does as the devs themselves said.

A: Humor me.

B: Ok but it would have to have greatly reduced rewards. The most challenging content needs to have unique rewards to reward the harder effort.

A: No! You are just punishing the casuals by having better rewards for more effort. Just playing easy mode raids for the extra play and story would be useless. Every game mode needs to have universal appeal. Everything needs to be obtainable by everyone just with an extra delay if doing the easy mode. That should be the case in all game modes. A game should not have different modes for different people. You all people are just toxic.

B: Are you sure you are not in this only for the easy rewards?

A: See all raiders are toxic.

B: But you are calling ppl name how are others toxic? Also why are you ignoring ppls suggestion on QoL?

A: See thats the problem. You are all selfish.

 

Does this thread have any use at this point?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > However, imagine what these fights would look like without these. It would be a generic punchbag for a boss that the team eventually should reduce to 0 hit points.

>

> How is that any different from what happens in hard mode once everyone gets their motions down?

 

Because players are human and they make mistakes. Your claim is only valid for perfect play, but nobody achieves that. Most you can hope for is a perfect playthrough from time to time. In the ERP we've seen even the top players from the top guilds messing up to the point of wiping. So clearly it is very different. And the difference comes from your claim that you shouldn't really be endangered of wiping in your easy mode. If there's no danger, it doesn't matter what you do and it doesn't matter what the boss does. Eventually you'll wear it down. And that's why I'm saying the defining feature of raids is their difficulty - because it is what makes both your actions and boss' ones matter. It's the danger, the potential to fail, and consequently the requirement to manage it. Remove this, and all that remains is a glorified punchbag. Same as most world bosses.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Because players are human and they make mistakes. Your claim is only valid for perfect play, but nobody achieves that.

 

I never said it was common.

[nia.4725]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > well here is the problem, the majority don't like existing raids, and are quite reasonable asking for normal mode raids just like every other mmorpg. (Some, not all) raiders here don't want the majority to have this style of raid for purely selfish reasons, even though it doesn't impact them, That's a problem isn't it. Basically its 'I dont want you to have fun unless its my type of fun'.

>

> This is literally the dialog we are having (at least when i am involved):

> A: Why do you object about easy modes being in the game?

> B: It will undermine the gameplay and content delivery. What about better QoL to help accessibility instead of an easy mode?

> A: Ok lets say it did not affect content delivery.

> B: But why does that matter? It does as the devs themselves said.

> A: Humor me.

> B: Ok but it would have to have greatly reduced rewards. The most challenging content needs to have unique rewards to reward the harder effort.

> A: No! You are just punishing the casuals by having better rewards for more effort. Just playing easy mode raids for the extra play and story would be useless. Every game mode needs to have universal appeal. Everything needs to be obtainable by everyone just with an extra delay if doing the easy mode. That should be the case in all game modes. A game should not have different modes for different people. You all people are just toxic.

> B: Are you sure you are not in this only for the easy rewards?

> A: See all raiders are toxic.

> B: But you are calling ppl name how are others toxic? Also why are you ignoring ppls suggestion on QoL?

> A: See thats the problem. You are all selfish.

>

> Does this thread have any use at this point?

 

This is so true and even funny to read. You're absolutely right \o/

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > well here is the problem, the majority don't like existing raids, and are quite reasonable asking for normal mode raids just like every other mmorpg. (Some, not all) raiders here don't want the majority to have this style of raid for purely selfish reasons, even though it doesn't impact them, That's a problem isn't it. Basically its 'I dont want you to have fun unless its my type of fun'.

>

> This is literally the dialog we are having (at least when i am involved):

> A: Why do you object about easy modes being in the game?

> B: It will undermine the gameplay and content delivery. What about better QoL to help accessibility instead of an easy mode?

> A: Ok lets say it did not affect content delivery.

> B: But why does that matter? It does as the devs themselves said.

> A: Humor me.

> B: Ok but it would have to have greatly reduced rewards. The most challenging content needs to have unique rewards to reward the harder effort.

> A: No! You are just punishing the casuals by having better rewards for more effort. Just playing easy mode raids for the extra play and story would be useless. Every game mode needs to have universal appeal. Everything needs to be obtainable by everyone just with an extra delay if doing the easy mode. That should be the case in all game modes. A game should not have different modes for different people. You all people are just toxic.

> B: Are you sure you are not in this only for the easy rewards?

> A: See all raiders are toxic.

> B: But you are calling ppl name how are others toxic? Also why are you ignoring ppls suggestion on QoL?

> A: See thats the problem. You are all selfish.

>

> Does this thread have any use at this point?

 

This is how every thread I've been in goes:

A: Why do you object about easy modes being in the game?

B: It will undermine the gameplay and content delivery. What about better QoL to help accessibility instead of an easy mode?

A: We don't know by how much, no reason to assume it would be significant, and QoL issues might be beneficial to some players, but could never account for the players that are actually looking for a more casual raiding experience than the existing ones could ever hope to offer.

B: But I can raid just fine, how could anyone have an experience that's different than mine? They clearly are just the past me, and need to become the present me to be happy.

A: Thats. . . not how human beings work.

B: Ok but it would have to have greatly reduced rewards. The most challenging content needs to have unique rewards to reward the harder effort.

A: Why? It's a game, the only point is to enjoy yourself. Why should one group of players get better rewards for playing how they enjoy, over other players playing how they enjoy?

B: Because *we* are special snowflakes that are entitled to better rewards.

A: But-

B: BETTER REWARDS.

A: But what about the players who would enjoy those rewards, but don't enjoy challenging content?

B: You're just here for the rewards!

A: I came here to discuss easy mode, YOU were the one that brought up rewards in the first place by arbitrarily declaring that nobody else could have any!

B: You're just here for the rewards!

A: Actually I've been very clear about also wanting to be able to play a casual version of the story and encounters.

B: but you also want the rewards?

A: Ye-

B: See, you ONLY care about the rewards!!!

A: But don't *you* only care about the rewards?

B: Ye- I mean, no, I only care about the challenging gameplay experience!! The rewards may as well be crumbs before me.

A: So you'd be willing to share the rewards with other players?

B: NO! Nobody touches my precious, nobody touch the shiny. MY shiny. MINESES!

A: Oooookay, so back to how this mechanic could work. . .

B: You only care about the rewards! This is going nowhere, let's shut the whole thread down and not talk about it anymore because, coincidentally, I *already* have everything I want, so clearly there's nothing to talk about.

[Turin.6921]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

 

> A: We don't know by how much, no reason to assume it would be **significant** (?????), and QoL issues might be beneficial to some players, but could never account for the players

 

You lost me there m8. Do we really need to link Reid´s statement for the 1241241st time. The moment you are disregarding statements made directly by the devs just so you can say your tune you lose any credibility. Reality is there no matter how much you ignore it.

 

In the end of the day its Anet´s game they make the decisions. If they have numbers that show that the mode does not have the intended players they will do sth about it. Probably better things than what we can suggest. They are the experts. Whoever likes it will play, whoever does not will move on. The aggression you are breeding with your mentality is not worth it.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group

 

I think this is really sad. After all, this is a MMORPG, and as such it's only unique selling point is the social element. Many of my 8 years lasting WoW guild are still close friends. I think it's sad that most players in GW2 seem to play the game like a glorified single player instead of an actually social game :disappointed:

 

 

[Cerioth.7062]

> > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > Not everyone is like that, sure. But I can assure that everyone I have ran raids with are happy. Nobody is forced to join raids, they do so on their own initiative, and tell me they had a blast.

>

> Yes, and that's great, but it's also a self-selection bias, the people *you* grouped with had a blast because that is the experience they came for. Good for them. The people who would *not* have a blast at it wouldn't likely show up to group with you, because they would know going in that this is not an experience they would enjoy. The easy mode would be designed for people who are already self-selecting *out* of the traditional raids.

>

> >Seems like you are in a very small minority, or you have never had a good experience running with a group in raids.

>

> Keep in mind that every poll that's been done so far indicates that less than 25% of GW2 players regularly raid. Then remaining 75%+ are not "some minority." You just never encounter them in raids because. . . *they do not raid.*

 

That does not make you to be with the majority. You have to factor in the *reasons* why people do not raid - and forum polls are not enough to reflect this, considering how small amount of people actually use the forums.

 

Most people who do not raid do it for the following reasons:

 

1. Accessibility issues. This is not an easy-mode problem, this is 10-man and time management problem. It is hard to find a time that suits for everyone during the week.

 

2. No interest in group content. These players just want to play solo, not rely on a group - not for dungeons, fractals or raids.

 

3. No interest in the concept of raiding. Easy mode would not fix this, as the core of gw2 raids does not interest them. It could be due to lack of gear grind or "interesting enough" rewards or plenty of other reasons.

 

4. Bad pug experience from raiding. This is not an issue that easy mode would solve as it sterms from the people, not the game mode.

 

Then finally there are people like you who find them too hard. Keep in mind that I have taken plenty of complete newbies to raids, some who have not even tried high level fractals or dungeons. They have not found the raiding to be too hard, despite not knowing anything about the encounters or what to expect. We teach them various tips and tricks for surviving better through encounters and how to adapt when a mechanic fails.

 

[Felipe.1807]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

 

> > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > A long time ago, when i cared to do raids and used to join this kinds of conversations, people were asking for easy mode, but with reduced or no reward at all, just to play the raid, see the story behind it, fight the boss, learn its mechanics and stuff and them be able to join a "normal" raid without being a dead weight and be completely clueless on how the the raid worked...nobody ever asked for easy mode plus normal rewards...but again, its hard to talk to raiders lol its like the situation on PvE legendary vs WvW and sPvP legendary armor, its a waste of time, let Anet do what they think its better for the game.

>

> Nah, I was there, and I was pretty consistent about wanting full rewards. Less quantity of rewards per clear, of course, but the same *quality* of rewards, so that multiple easy clears would at least add up to a single hard clear.

 

Wrong, everyone who said about "easy mode" was saying they wanted to experince the raid, story and the fight...when rewards are brought up, most were fine with the idea of reduced or no rewards at all.

 

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

 

 

>

>

> > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > A long time ago, when i cared to do raids and used to join this kinds of conversations, people were asking for easy mode, but with reduced or no reward at all, just to play the raid, see the story behind it, fight the boss, learn its mechanics and stuff and them be able to join a "normal" raid without being a dead weight and be completely clueless on how the the raid worked...nobody ever asked for easy mode plus normal rewards...but again, its hard to talk to raiders lol its like the situation on PvE legendary vs WvW and sPvP legendary armor, its a waste of time, let Anet do what they think its better for the game.

>

> This was a long time ago in other games where raids actually progress the main story and are major content patches. In GW2 it was always about rewards.

 

Dosent matter, people wanna be able to join the content that they are paying for it, right now most players aint able cause time and with lack of experience no group will allow them to join..."easy mode" would help these people, they would be able to experience the boss encounter, slowly learn the mechanics and with time get more confident to join a "Normal mode" raid...honestly cant see the problem with this...

 

> 1. Legendary gear in general is not exclusive to raids. Weapons are actually exclusive to open world (but who cares you can get them right?).

> 2. Legendary armor is also available in WvW and PvP.

 

Envoy is exclusive for Raids...WvW and sPvP "legendary" armor is greatest joke from Anet, true sign that they dont care at all for those game modes or their players.

[geochan.9184]

Getting into raid isn't that difficult as you think.

 

Around 2 months ago, while looking some good armor for my character, i saw the Perfect Envoy Legendary and it pique my curiosity so i decided to check for the details of obtaining one. **Raid** was the very first word that i saw, initially i thought this would be impossible for me because of that i am a true solo player and that looking for 9 other players that would want to play with me, a beginner and not to mention at the time i prefer is an even higher obstacle. I'll be honest that i kind of "lost" all my hope already at this point. I will also add that I did not have any ascended or even exotics at this time yet.

 

However, my attachment for the legendary armor is way stronger that i thought, i started to watch videos and check out written guides on my break time during work, altho i really can't relate or understand anything about what's happening and is written, i still tried to memorize so that atleast when the real thing comes, i won't be dumbfounded and rely on others.

 

Then all i needed was the 9 other players that would play with me. I didn't have any friends or even people i know of in game, i also do not belong to any guilds at that time. All i could rely is LFG, but almost all the time the groups are looking for exp players and not training runs. I decided to respect their description until i could no longer wait for an actual training run to appear.

 

The very first time i joined an exp raid as a complete beginner, i was asked to prove that i am experienced by providing kill proofs, i didn't know what are those and i decided to tell them the truth that i am new to raids and have never done it before. The only thing that they said next was "Sorry" and poof I am kicked out of the group. I honestly hated and cursed those people for not understanding and giving me a chance, i could never understand then why are people so ruthless that would kick anyone just because they are new to it, i mean, every started as a newbie.

 

So after a few attempts on joining next few exp runs, there's finally this group that is not asking KP for whatever is that i did not know yet. My first raid was horrible, despite thinking that know the mechanics and stuff, i was still dumbfounded, my previous reading and watching didn't help me at all or maybe just a tiny bit. The only thing that i could do was to follow the whole group and attack the boss. Thankfully that i am a fast learner, i was able to fully understand the mechanics in just a few trial and error.

 

Timeskip that after 2 months which is now, I am proud to say that i have fully mastered all the mechanics for all the raid and can now perfectly execute them with least errors and as for my original goal of obtaining the legendary armor, i have already finished all the achievements and is now only 1 month away from crafting it due to the timegated materials such as legendary insight and provisoner tokens, also gold wise.

 

As a experienced raider now, i can say that getting into raid is actually easier than you think. Not every raider is an elitist as you think they are, in fact most of the people in raid community are good people, sure they do kick you out if you're new or bad, i didn't understand them at all before, but now i can. It's because doing a raid really requires a lot of time, most boss requires atleast more or less 10 minutes to finish, if someone made a mistake, it will reset and you will have to start over from 0 again. That's another 10 minutes full of moving and awareness for the mechanics and stuff. It's tough to do the same thing again and again not receiving any reward, it's a waste of time. That is why exp runs wants people to be experienced enough to not make any mistake, so everyone in the group won't be inconvenienced and have their time wasted. They maybe cruel for not explaining anything before kicking new and inexperience people out, but at very least, most of the groups that kicked me will always say that they are sorry before doing it.

 

So well, the point is that you need to have patience and make efforts to be able to join raids. Just like most people said, the raids are already very easy when you learn them, they are no different from fractals except that everyone in the group has to do their job near perfectly. In a sense, i think it's safe to say that T4 fractals are even harder than raids.

 

For those that really wants to play raid but cannot because they have no experience or have no people to play with, I am eventually planning to make a guild specifically for training runs. It will be internationally to accommodate people from most time zones but of course it will still depend on the actual trainers that will join. Maybe the community will be able to get into raid easier with this.

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

>

> *Everybody's* position about what's best for the game is their personal opinion. *One* of them is right.

 

This is not true at all, None of them could be right as well.

 

But as it stands, Anet has for the most part directly said they were not going to revise Raids. If this is a deal breaker for you, vote with your wallet when the words don't work.

 

Maybe they will listen.. maybe they won't.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

>

> > > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > > A long time ago, when i cared to do raids and used to join this kinds of conversations, people were asking for easy mode, but with reduced or no reward at all, just to play the raid, see the story behind it, fight the boss, learn its mechanics and stuff and them be able to join a "normal" raid without being a dead weight and be completely clueless on how the the raid worked...nobody ever asked for easy mode plus normal rewards...but again, its hard to talk to raiders lol its like the situation on PvE legendary vs WvW and sPvP legendary armor, its a waste of time, let Anet do what they think its better for the game.

> >

> > Nah, I was there, and I was pretty consistent about wanting full rewards. Less quantity of rewards per clear, of course, but the same *quality* of rewards, so that multiple easy clears would at least add up to a single hard clear.

>

> Wrong, everyone who said about "easy mode" was saying they wanted to experince the raid, story and the fight...when rewards are brought up, most were fine with the idea of reduced or no rewards at all.

>

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>

>

> >

> >

> > > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > > A long time ago, when i cared to do raids and used to join this kinds of conversations, people were asking for easy mode, but with reduced or no reward at all, just to play the raid, see the story behind it, fight the boss, learn its mechanics and stuff and them be able to join a "normal" raid without being a dead weight and be completely clueless on how the the raid worked...nobody ever asked for easy mode plus normal rewards...but again, its hard to talk to raiders lol its like the situation on PvE legendary vs WvW and sPvP legendary armor, its a waste of time, let Anet do what they think its better for the game.

> >

> > This was a long time ago in other games where raids actually progress the main story and are major content patches. In GW2 it was always about rewards.

>

> Dosent matter, people wanna be able to join the content that they are paying for it, right now most players aint able cause time and with lack of experience no group will allow them to join..."easy mode" would help these people, they would be able to experience the boss encounter, slowly learn the mechanics and with time get more confident to join a "Normal mode" raid...honestly cant see the problem with this...

>

> > 1. Legendary gear in general is not exclusive to raids. Weapons are actually exclusive to open world (but who cares you can get them right?).

> > 2. Legendary armor is also available in WvW and PvP.

>

> Envoy is exclusive for Raids...WvW and sPvP "legendary" armor is greatest joke from Anet, true sign that they dont care at all for those game modes or their players.

 

Just for the record, Anet is adding a new pvp glorious armor set in the future based off the glorious set and will have FX.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Just for the record, Anet is adding a new pvp glorious armor set in the future based off the glorious set and will have FX.

 

Which is odd given VFX are turned off/severely tuned down for PvP.

But that doesnt mean it's going to be a full transform and from the one dev quote it wont be "new" it's just glorious 1.5. Likely meaning it will share the same model.

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Just for the record, Anet is adding a new pvp glorious armor set in the future based off the glorious set and will have FX.

>

> Which is odd given VFX are turned off/severely tuned down for PvP.

> But that doesnt mean it's going to be a full transform and from the one dev quote it wont be "new" it's just glorious 1.5. Likely meaning it will share the same model.

>

I think it will share the same skin as Glorious Hero or just the base exotic glorious set with additional FX. I suspect it might be like the obsidian weapons, that change depending on the team colour.

 

Do those change in pvp fights too?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group

>

> I think this is really sad. After all, this is a MMORPG, and as such it's only unique selling point is the social element. Many of my 8 years lasting WoW guild are still close friends. I think it's sad that most players in GW2 seem to play the game like a glorified single player instead of an actually social game :disappointed:

 

 

The GW2 community is a bit of an outlier among MMO communities, mostly built around refugees from previous MMOs. It's based more around the community as a whole than it is around smaller, tight-knit groups. It favors the joy of being able to take down a mob alongside dozens of other players without actually grouping with any of them, and talking in mapchat with people who are halfway across the map and who you may never see again, over the partying up in town and setting out on a specific multi-month campaign. It's not "worse" than what other MMOs offer, it's just different, and GW2 players prefer it that way, which is why they aren't playing those other games.

 

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> Most people who do not raid do it for the following reasons:

>

> 1. Accessibility issues. This is not an easy-mode problem, this is 10-man and time management problem. It is hard to find a time that suits for everyone during the week.

 

This should not be an issue with easy mode, since you would not need to prearrange times. Any time you logged in you should be able to find nine other players willing and able to complete a raid with you. This is impossible at the current difficulty level because the difficulty creates barriers that would make forming such a group either impossible or unlikely to actually succeed at the task.

 

> 2. No interest in group content. These players just want to play solo, not rely on a group - not for dungeons, fractals or raids.

 

Possibly, but larger amounts of players do or have done other instanced content. There are a lot of people who don't mind casual instance running that would balk at having to form a "static group" to raid with.

 

> 3. No interest in the concept of raiding. Easy mode would not fix this, as the core of gw2 raids does not interest them. It could be due to lack of gear grind or "interesting enough" rewards or plenty of other reasons.

 

Agreed, but given that relatively high percentages report having at least *tried* raiding, I think the vague interest is there, they just aren't interested in the "drama" that necessarily surrounds the current implementation.

 

> 4. Bad pug experience from raiding. This is not an issue that easy mode would solve as it sterms from the people, not the game mode.

 

"Bad pugs" typically mean that the pug failed to clear the objective. Easy mode would greatly reduce the cases of this occurring. Even if players still experienced a truly "bad pug" from time to time, the "wins" would far outweigh the "losses."

 

> Then finally there are people like you who find them too hard. Keep in mind that I have taken plenty of complete newbies to raids, some who have not even tried high level fractals or dungeons. They have not found the raiding to be too hard, despite not knowing anything about the encounters or what to expect. We teach them various tips and tricks for surviving better through encounters and how to adapt when a mechanic fails.

 

Again, *some* players are open to the process you describe, and no matter where they start out, they can be coached into being good little raider drones. Not every player is of that mindset, not every player would enjoy that process, even once they come out the other side of it. You tend to encounter players that want to learn to raid, because those are the people you seek out, and who seek you out. You don't tend to encounter the types of players who are not interested in learning to raid, because they aren't interested in learning to raid, but that doesn't mean that they have no interest in raiding if they *don't* have to study for it first.

 

> @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Nah, I was there, and I was pretty consistent about wanting full rewards. Less quantity of rewards per clear, of course, but the same *quality* of rewards, so that multiple easy clears would at least add up to a single hard clear.

>

> Wrong, everyone who said about "easy mode" was saying they wanted to experince the raid, story and the fight...when rewards are brought up, most were fine with the idea of reduced or no rewards at all.

 

Can anyone back me up on this? I'm pretty sure I was quite vocal about wanting the same rewards raiders were getting from as soon as raids came out. I'm sure I had some arguments with some of you over it.

 

> @"geochan.9184" said:

> Getting into raid isn't that difficult as you think.

 

No, it's exactly as difficult as I think, the only difference is that you are fine with it being that difficult, and I would like it to be easier than that.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Just for the record, Anet is adding a new pvp glorious armor set in the future based off the glorious set and will have FX.

>

> Which is odd given VFX are turned off/severely tuned down for PvP.

> But that doesnt mean it's going to be a full transform and from the one dev quote it wont be "new" it's just glorious 1.5. Likely meaning it will share the same model.

>

How did the devs describe it, uhh pvp armor 2.5 I think.

 

[Henry.5713]

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > well here is the problem, the majority don't like existing raids, and are quite reasonable asking for normal mode raids just like every other mmorpg. (Some, not all) raiders here don't want the majority to have this style of raid for purely selfish reasons, even though it doesn't impact them, That's a problem isn't it. Basically its 'I dont want you to have fun unless its my type of fun'.

>

> This is literally the dialog we are having (at least when i am involved):

> A: Why do you object about easy modes being in the game?

> B: It will undermine the gameplay and content delivery. What about better QoL to help accessibility instead of an easy mode?

> A: Ok lets say it did not affect content delivery.

> B: But why does that matter? It does as the devs themselves said.

> A: Humor me.

> B: Ok but it would have to have greatly reduced rewards. The most challenging content needs to have unique rewards to reward the harder effort.

> A: No! You are just punishing the casuals by having better rewards for more effort. Just playing easy mode raids for the extra play and story would be useless. Every game mode needs to have universal appeal. Everything needs to be obtainable by everyone just with an extra delay if doing the easy mode. That should be the case in all game modes. A game should not have different modes for different people. You all people are just toxic.

> B: Are you sure you are not in this only for the easy rewards?

> A: See all raiders are toxic.

> B: But you are calling ppl name how are others toxic? Also why are you ignoring ppls suggestion on QoL?

> A: See thats the problem. You are all selfish.

>

> Does this thread have any use at this point?

 

Yep, I made the same experience. The few times I tried to have a discussion turned into this after a while:

"You are wrong.... because I am always right no matter what!" "Yes, all I want is easy legendary armor, screw you if you disagree - I deserve to get my way as a paying customer" "How dare you enjoy the game in it's current form and disagree for it to be changed towards my personal preference!" "You are toxic and a special snowflake."

[Linken.6345]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > Nah, I was there, and I was pretty consistent about wanting full rewards. Less quantity of rewards per clear, of course, but the same *quality* of rewards, so that multiple easy clears would at least add up to a single hard clear.

> >

> > Wrong, everyone who said about "easy mode" was saying they wanted to experince the raid, story and the fight...when rewards are brought up, most were fine with the idea of reduced or no rewards at all.

>

> Can anyone back me up on this? I'm pretty sure I was quite vocal about wanting the same rewards raiders were getting from as soon as raids came out. I'm sure I had some arguments with some of you over it.

>

Yea I can back you up here kinda odd that he can say your wrong for saying what have been your stance from day one the raids came in bud.

 

 

 

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group

>

> I think this is really sad. After all, this is a MMORPG, and as such it's only unique selling point is the social element. Many of my 8 years lasting WoW guild are still close friends. I think it's sad that most players in GW2 seem to play the game like a glorified single player instead of an actually social game :disappointed:

>

>

 

The problem with GW2 is that it is unsociable by design. Conceptual-wise, GW2 is still too much of a single-player-game with optional multiplayer; not as bad as GW1, but arguably still not a true full-fledged MMORPG.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group

> >

> > I think this is really sad. After all, this is a MMORPG, and as such it's only unique selling point is the social element. Many of my 8 years lasting WoW guild are still close friends. I think it's sad that most players in GW2 seem to play the game like a glorified single player instead of an actually social game :disappointed:

> >

> >

>

> The problem with GW2 is that it is unsociable by design. Conceptual-wise, GW2 is still too much of a single-player-game with optional multiplayer; not as bad as GW1, but arguably still not a true full-fledged MMORPG.

 

That's not a bug, that's a **feature.**