vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > >The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is. > > >In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals. > > > > And the thing is, you say this unironically, seemingly not realizing that T4 Fractals are *also* harder than most players would care to play. > > > Then don't?! Neither Fractals nor Raids are hard to play, i've gotten people doing both after little more than one month playing the game. If people find it too difficult, then obviously, easy mode or not, maybe the problem isn't the content it's their expectations. > > > >In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse. > > > > If the existing raid community actually *enjoys* the current raids, then adding easy modes will not "divide" that community. That community will keep doing what they're doing. All the easy mode would do is add a *new* community of players who currently do not raid, but would do so if the raids were "fun" by their own standards (which are different than your standards). > > > It will create a divide in where new players will keep to low tier content, or get ill habits from the easy content and then have a harder time transitioning to harder content. Fractals are a good example of people messing up at higher tiers because they grew accustomed to the more forgiving tiers. And even then, like you demonstrated, with easy tiers people still complain, so clearly, easy mode doesn't solve a problem. A better training tool might. > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > Would be nice if we had other options for raids, like auto join or different difficulty levels. It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group. In lieu of that I feel like they should just make raids much more casual, in order to lower player scrutiny so we can actually do them. I love hard content but organizing the group and jumping through the hoops is too much work and it's tedious. Please consider making raids more palatable for everyone. > > > > > > > > > > Different difficulties will have the opposite effect of what you want, and will obviously split the community further. > > > > > The LFG could be better, but isn't too bad. > > > > > The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is. > > > > > In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals. > > > > > You can easily complete Escort with builds and gear that wouldn't carry you through T4 Fractals, for example, and escort is just the easy example. There's been people doing challenges of completing raids with all greens, or with a budget. As soon as you get the mechanics down (they are generally more mechanic intensive than most Fractals), your gear matters way less than in Fractals. > > > > > I've done Raids in full exotic armor (ascended trinkets and weapons), i've had people in my raid complete VG and Gorseval with rare/exotic mixes, etc. Raids aren't that hard, just takes some time to learn them (as in all games). > > > > > > > > If you don't get it, go play ESO or WOW as a couple examples, the raiding is fun and has different levels of raid to suit everyone's needs, and what more raiders get it in those games, They don't try and kitten on next doors lawn to make theirs look nice and green.. > > > > > > > > > > > How about you trying to play GW2's raids? Because it definitely sounds like you haven't! > > > WoW's raiding is fun (ESO though, lol) because the whole game is built around it and the whole community raids. Not only there's more people raiding in WoW, there's 14 years worth of raids to play, which allows them to have had new modes. Also, for the most part a lot of the content only has (or had until recently) a single difficulty mode, and only some content had Heroic and Normal modes (which is the case with GW2 already, already have varying difficulty in Dungeons (Story and Explorable) and Fractals (Tiers and Challenge Mode)). > > > > > > In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse. > > > > > > Raids in GW2 are fun, and some of them are actually great, people just don't engage in them, and btw, there's a LOT of different difficulties in encounters, like i said, Escort is a great entry way, it's easier than some T4 Fractals and even some Dungeons (Arah for example), AND, again like i mentioned, Raids have less barriers to entry than Fractals T4, only barrier is your own performance. > > > > > > People don't even try, that's the problem. > > > > > > I don't even understand that last comment about lawns btw. > > > > Here we go again, raiders are right, the other 90% of the world are wrong and dont understand etc etc. Do you realise the average age of players today means most of us are very well versed with raids? As for lawns, that 90% wants something else - work it out. > > For starters i can hardly be called a raider, i have done a few, but nothing consistent, just a few encounters with friends when i can, haven't done one in months actually, because the schedules for everyone changed. > > Well, the saying "the grass is always greener on the other side" means something different than what you think. It means ignorance sometimes breeds wrong expectations, basically. For the 90% (lol, more like ~ 70%) that don't play raids, they have other content to play, 90% of those 70% wouldn't play raids even with easy mode, simply because that's not the content they care to play. As a term of comparison, only ~11% of players have reached rank 80 in PvP, which is kinda easy to farm (there's a guy over rank 1000). > Raids have one objective: being the most challenging PvE content available in GW2, and that's what it is, and should remain. For easy content you have dungeons. If you're jelly of other people having raid rewards, then put in the work. I mean your argument about lawns could be well returned to you without any loss (in fact it might arguably be more fitting to people wanting easy mode raids than otherwise - it isn't raiders trying to change or diminish a game mode for their profit). > When you cater niche game modes to the majority of the population, you end up ruining them, there's an awesome example of this in PvP with the Team queue poll, ever since that decision was made, sPvP has been steadily declining. > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > Would be nice if we had other options for raids, like auto join or different difficulty levels. It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group. In lieu of that I feel like they should just make raids much more casual, in order to lower player scrutiny so we can actually do them. I love hard content but organizing the group and jumping through the hoops is too much work and it's tedious. Please consider making raids more palatable for everyone. > > > > > > > > > > Different difficulties will have the opposite effect of what you want, and will obviously split the community further. > > > > > The LFG could be better, but isn't too bad. > > > > > The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is. > > > > > In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals. > > > > > You can easily complete Escort with builds and gear that wouldn't carry you through T4 Fractals, for example, and escort is just the easy example. There's been people doing challenges of completing raids with all greens, or with a budget. As soon as you get the mechanics down (they are generally more mechanic intensive than most Fractals), your gear matters way less than in Fractals. > > > > > I've done Raids in full exotic armor (ascended trinkets and weapons), i've had people in my raid complete VG and Gorseval with rare/exotic mixes, etc. Raids aren't that hard, just takes some time to learn them (as in all games). > > > > > > > > If you don't get it, go play ESO or WOW as a couple examples, the raiding is fun and has different levels of raid to suit everyone's needs, and what more raiders get it in those games, They don't try and kitten on next doors lawn to make theirs look nice and green.. > > > > > > > > > > > How about you trying to play GW2's raids? Because it definitely sounds like you haven't! > > > WoW's raiding is fun (ESO though, lol) because the whole game is built around it and the whole community raids. Not only there's more people raiding in WoW, there's 14 years worth of raids to play, which allows them to have had new modes. Also, for the most part a lot of the content only has (or had until recently) a single difficulty mode, and only some content had Heroic and Normal modes (which is the case with GW2 already, already have varying difficulty in Dungeons (Story and Explorable) and Fractals (Tiers and Challenge Mode)). > > > > > > In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse. > > > > > > Raids in GW2 are fun, and some of them are actually great, people just don't engage in them, and btw, there's a LOT of different difficulties in encounters, like i said, Escort is a great entry way, it's easier than some T4 Fractals and even some Dungeons (Arah for example), AND, again like i mentioned, Raids have less barriers to entry than Fractals T4, only barrier is your own performance. > > > > > > People don't even try, that's the problem. > > > > > > I don't even understand that last comment about lawns btw. > > > > Yes we clearly have never done raids. I guarantee Ive done more raids in my life then you and then some. Most of the posts on here advocating for some type of change, are well articulated and give poignant examples of the types of changes they would like to see and why, clearly people who are well versed in raids and raid mechanics. Saying that they need to simply play raids and stop complaining is disingenuous. > > First never bet or make guarantees without knowing what or who you're betting against. Life advice here. You might raid more than me in GW2, not too hard, since i've played it very seldom, most of my guild mates and friends have quit the game a long time ago, and i prefer doing that kind of content with my friends. > > I was actually addressing one person, to which i was replying. And while there's a lot of QoL stuff that could change in raids, for one the crap with VG blues is almost 2 years old and it still gets drowned in visual and auditory clutter., the LFG in this game isn't that robust either. A lot of people just want a easy farm, they want dumbed down and watered down content that they can farm. Which is not what Raids should be. > And while i believe a lot of experienced raiders have given feedback, you jumped right into difficulty modes. And while that kinda worked for Fractals (more people do fractals than raids - i'm betting mostly because its 5 man, so easier to group) Raids have a different structure and rewards, also have a much smaller community that really can't afford to get split. > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said: > > I don't see a problem with difficulty scaling in raids, like has been said... How does that in any way affect the people who already play them? It's just pointless elitism to think otherwise. > > It's watered down content. Raids are meant to be hard, that's their purpose. They were created specifically for those players that want hard content, so they shouldn't now be dumbed down to cater for others populations. You call it elitism, but one could say your argument is born out of entitlement as well. > Also it **does** affect people that already play them. For starters those that already play it, especially the "bow wave" of "firsts" have to dedicate a ton of time to complete the content and get their rewards, and now you want the same rewards for a fraction of the work? > I guarantee you that if they added easy mode but with like fractal-level rewards, no Li or Raid specific rewards, barely anyone would play it. > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > If there was a clear message "I'm chasing this guy because he has high Toughness?" and similar messages for other mechanics, then it would defeat any purpose of exploration or finding out the mechanics of a fight on your own. > > > > > > > > I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just making note that this mechanic is not an *obvious* one for people who aren't already aware of it going in. It's not something that a truly innocent pug "should be able to figure out for themselves" in any reasonable amount of time. There are good things about that *and* bad things about it, when we're talking about accessibility. > > > > > > > > >For those that do not want to find out the mechanics the hard way, there are always guides. > > > > > > > > And while I do think players should use what guides are available, part of the point of an easy mode is to take guess-work and prior knowledge as much out of he equation as possible, to be "pick up and play," *not* "trial and error." > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > You don't get it at all. GW2 is a good game, but a very mediocre MMORPG at best. > > > > > > > > That's only because you apparently have your own arbitrary distinctions as to what an MMORPG should and should not be, which conflict with what many other players think an MMORPG should and should not be. The things that you think make an MMO better or worse, *aren't* universal truths. > > > > > > > > >They could have designed their combat in a way that boon- and heal-sharing only works in parties and squads. > > > > > > > > That would be HORRIBLE. > > > > > > > > >They could have designed their combat in a way that by teaming up with others, you can spread out and farm/play more efficiently > > > > > > > > That would be AWFUL. > > > > > > > > Every single suggestion you've made to "improve" the game would only have made it *much much worse.* > > > > > > > > >Another mandatory design-element for MMORPGs is that people need to learn basic gameplay through basic content, which would be open world and story in GW2. The problem is that people don't learn that though. Basic content in GW2 is far too easy and doesn't feature any kind of difficulty-progression. That way, people don't learn to carry their own weight which should always be a mandatory goal of every MMORPG-developer. > > > > > > > > I've played a ton of different MMOs, and I don't think GW2's story does a worse job of teaching gameplay than any other. The problem that *every* MMO struggles with is that they give a wide variety of options, and it's hard to train a player when you can't assume what class or role the player intends to play. You can't require character skills that the player's character might not have, for example. > > > > > > > > >ANet rather became a slave to the auto-atk-mentality-community. They had to nerf natural gatekeepers like the Eater of Souls. People are crying about Serpent's Ire being to hard to complete. There is a reason why most LFG-squads have ridiculous LI and KP requirements, even though the content is fairly easy. > > > > > > > > Perhaps that is because the community of players GW2 has attracted are not the players you *want* it to have attracted, but those players *like* the game, so maybe you're the one that's wrong here. > > > > > > > > >People always tend to mistake "easy" with "casual-friendly". GW2 is easy, but by being too easy it's far from being casual-friendly. GW2 suffers from many contradicting design-choices. ANet wasted a lot of potential through inconsistent and incoherent game-design. Sure, the game is successful, but please don't mistake "successful" with "has a lot of players". The game could be so much more than it currently is. > > > > > > > > As you've pointed out, it could have been *so* much worse. > > > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > >The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is. > > > > >In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals. > > > > > > > > And the thing is, you say this unironically, seemingly not realizing that T4 Fractals are *also* harder than most players would care to play. > > > > > > > > >In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse. > > > > > > > > If the existing raid community actually *enjoys* the current raids, then adding easy modes will not "divide" that community. That community will keep doing what they're doing. All the easy mode would do is add a *new* community of players who currently do not raid, but would do so if the raids were "fun" by their own standards (which are different than your standards). > > > > > > > > > > > No becouse if there is a easier way to get the same thing people will do the path of least resistance9 > > > > 90+% dont raid at all, your suggesting therefore that existing raiders will switch to easy lol because it is path of least resistance > > Of course... If rewards are any where similar, easy mode would be just the perfect farm for experienced raiders. You only get the rewards once a week, so doing raids faster for similar rewards (especially if they would award Li) would obviously be preferable. Of course you'd risk losing those hard core guilds that create benchmarks, and guides, and all the juicy info everyone else uses. excellent, so the other 90% of the game population actually gets 10 man instances they want to play, and raiders also get extra content they want to play. All you need to do os slow down the reward rate in the normal mode raids to keep it balanced, e.g normal raids has its own currency for gear that takes x tiems longer than top level raid. Jobs a good un, everyone wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > >No Im saying that its human nature to take the easiest way to get stuff. > > > > Then why would anyone want to raid? > > Because some people enjoy challenging content and they don't play for rewards but play for the fun of challenge? I read the entire thread and couldn't see a single point you said something reasonable. I assumed that was the case, but Linken said that people don't do that. Hence the question. There seems to be some confusion on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > Jobs a good un, everyone wins. I'm curious, what would happen to the game if the majority of the game's population was inside Raid instances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > Jobs a good un, everyone wins. > > I'm curious, what would happen to the game if the majority of the game's population was inside Raid instances? We'd have a complete U-turn from the premises this game launched on. Current raids mostly complement the original goals, i.e. providing challenging instanced group content, what dungeons failed at. However, I'm very confident that even with infantile mode we would not see a majority in raids, since it's obvious that a large part of the game population doesn't care about instanced PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > Jobs a good un, everyone wins. > > I'm curious, what would happen to the game if the majority of the game's population was inside Raid instances? I don't know that it would make a huge difference, since they added the multi-server maps, so as long as some people are running open world content, they would end up on the same maps. And even if the majority of players *do* raids, that doesn't mean the majority of the people laying would be *in* a raid at any given time, since most players would only spend a couple hours a week doing raids and then spend the rest of their time doing something else. I do think that as they continue to add more raids they need to give more thought to "total raid reward" caps to disincentivize players running *every* encounter every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > We'd have a complete U-turn from the premises this game launched on. Current raids mostly complement the original goals, i.e. providing challenging instanced group content, what dungeons failed at. However, I'm very confident that even with infantile mode we would not see a majority in raids, since it's obvious that a large part of the game population doesn't care about instanced PvE. Well if T1 Fractals had rewards comparable to let's say Palawadan we'd see loads more running T1 Fractals since it seems to me that the game's population moves where the best rewards are. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I don't know that it would make a huge difference, since they added the multi-server maps, so as long as some people are running open world content, they would end up on the same maps. > > And even if the majority of players *do* raids, that doesn't mean the majority of the people laying would be *in* a raid at any given time, since most players would only spend a couple hours a week doing raids and then spend the rest of their time doing something else. In raiding mmorpgs (that have multiple different difficulties for raids) raids are the major part of the game while the open world is more of an after thought, in that situation having multiple difficulty tiers makes sense because that's the focus of the game. Guild Wars 2 is different though and adding more tiers of difficulty in Raids would certainly move this more closer to a full raiding mmorpg, instead of raiding being a relatively small part of it. What actual effect it would have on the open world population is uncertain but it certainly depends on what kind of rewards it gives compared to the difficulty. > I do think that as they continue to add more raids they need to give more thought to "total raid reward" caps to disincentivize players running *every* encounter every week. Even more important than that, what happens if someone runs both. Will they be able to get both normal and easy mode rewards on the same week? Challenge motes solve this "problem" by being one time only rewards, therefore there is little reason to repeat them on a schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > >The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is. > > > >In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals. > > > > > > And the thing is, you say this unironically, seemingly not realizing that T4 Fractals are *also* harder than most players would care to play. > > > > > Then don't?! Neither Fractals nor Raids are hard to play, i've gotten people doing both after little more than one month playing the game. If people find it too difficult, then obviously, easy mode or not, maybe the problem isn't the content it's their expectations. > > > > > >In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse. > > > > > > If the existing raid community actually *enjoys* the current raids, then adding easy modes will not "divide" that community. That community will keep doing what they're doing. All the easy mode would do is add a *new* community of players who currently do not raid, but would do so if the raids were "fun" by their own standards (which are different than your standards). > > > > > It will create a divide in where new players will keep to low tier content, or get ill habits from the easy content and then have a harder time transitioning to harder content. Fractals are a good example of people messing up at higher tiers because they grew accustomed to the more forgiving tiers. And even then, like you demonstrated, with easy tiers people still complain, so clearly, easy mode doesn't solve a problem. A better training tool might. > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > Would be nice if we had other options for raids, like auto join or different difficulty levels. It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group. In lieu of that I feel like they should just make raids much more casual, in order to lower player scrutiny so we can actually do them. I love hard content but organizing the group and jumping through the hoops is too much work and it's tedious. Please consider making raids more palatable for everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > Different difficulties will have the opposite effect of what you want, and will obviously split the community further. > > > > > > The LFG could be better, but isn't too bad. > > > > > > The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is. > > > > > > In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals. > > > > > > You can easily complete Escort with builds and gear that wouldn't carry you through T4 Fractals, for example, and escort is just the easy example. There's been people doing challenges of completing raids with all greens, or with a budget. As soon as you get the mechanics down (they are generally more mechanic intensive than most Fractals), your gear matters way less than in Fractals. > > > > > > I've done Raids in full exotic armor (ascended trinkets and weapons), i've had people in my raid complete VG and Gorseval with rare/exotic mixes, etc. Raids aren't that hard, just takes some time to learn them (as in all games). > > > > > > > > > > If you don't get it, go play ESO or WOW as a couple examples, the raiding is fun and has different levels of raid to suit everyone's needs, and what more raiders get it in those games, They don't try and kitten on next doors lawn to make theirs look nice and green.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How about you trying to play GW2's raids? Because it definitely sounds like you haven't! > > > > WoW's raiding is fun (ESO though, lol) because the whole game is built around it and the whole community raids. Not only there's more people raiding in WoW, there's 14 years worth of raids to play, which allows them to have had new modes. Also, for the most part a lot of the content only has (or had until recently) a single difficulty mode, and only some content had Heroic and Normal modes (which is the case with GW2 already, already have varying difficulty in Dungeons (Story and Explorable) and Fractals (Tiers and Challenge Mode)). > > > > > > > > In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse. > > > > > > > > Raids in GW2 are fun, and some of them are actually great, people just don't engage in them, and btw, there's a LOT of different difficulties in encounters, like i said, Escort is a great entry way, it's easier than some T4 Fractals and even some Dungeons (Arah for example), AND, again like i mentioned, Raids have less barriers to entry than Fractals T4, only barrier is your own performance. > > > > > > > > People don't even try, that's the problem. > > > > > > > > I don't even understand that last comment about lawns btw. > > > > > > Here we go again, raiders are right, the other 90% of the world are wrong and dont understand etc etc. Do you realise the average age of players today means most of us are very well versed with raids? As for lawns, that 90% wants something else - work it out. > > > > For starters i can hardly be called a raider, i have done a few, but nothing consistent, just a few encounters with friends when i can, haven't done one in months actually, because the schedules for everyone changed. > > > > Well, the saying "the grass is always greener on the other side" means something different than what you think. It means ignorance sometimes breeds wrong expectations, basically. For the 90% (lol, more like ~ 70%) that don't play raids, they have other content to play, 90% of those 70% wouldn't play raids even with easy mode, simply because that's not the content they care to play. As a term of comparison, only ~11% of players have reached rank 80 in PvP, which is kinda easy to farm (there's a guy over rank 1000). > > Raids have one objective: being the most challenging PvE content available in GW2, and that's what it is, and should remain. For easy content you have dungeons. If you're jelly of other people having raid rewards, then put in the work. I mean your argument about lawns could be well returned to you without any loss (in fact it might arguably be more fitting to people wanting easy mode raids than otherwise - it isn't raiders trying to change or diminish a game mode for their profit). > > When you cater niche game modes to the majority of the population, you end up ruining them, there's an awesome example of this in PvP with the Team queue poll, ever since that decision was made, sPvP has been steadily declining. > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > Would be nice if we had other options for raids, like auto join or different difficulty levels. It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group. In lieu of that I feel like they should just make raids much more casual, in order to lower player scrutiny so we can actually do them. I love hard content but organizing the group and jumping through the hoops is too much work and it's tedious. Please consider making raids more palatable for everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > Different difficulties will have the opposite effect of what you want, and will obviously split the community further. > > > > > > The LFG could be better, but isn't too bad. > > > > > > The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is. > > > > > > In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals. > > > > > > You can easily complete Escort with builds and gear that wouldn't carry you through T4 Fractals, for example, and escort is just the easy example. There's been people doing challenges of completing raids with all greens, or with a budget. As soon as you get the mechanics down (they are generally more mechanic intensive than most Fractals), your gear matters way less than in Fractals. > > > > > > I've done Raids in full exotic armor (ascended trinkets and weapons), i've had people in my raid complete VG and Gorseval with rare/exotic mixes, etc. Raids aren't that hard, just takes some time to learn them (as in all games). > > > > > > > > > > If you don't get it, go play ESO or WOW as a couple examples, the raiding is fun and has different levels of raid to suit everyone's needs, and what more raiders get it in those games, They don't try and kitten on next doors lawn to make theirs look nice and green.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How about you trying to play GW2's raids? Because it definitely sounds like you haven't! > > > > WoW's raiding is fun (ESO though, lol) because the whole game is built around it and the whole community raids. Not only there's more people raiding in WoW, there's 14 years worth of raids to play, which allows them to have had new modes. Also, for the most part a lot of the content only has (or had until recently) a single difficulty mode, and only some content had Heroic and Normal modes (which is the case with GW2 already, already have varying difficulty in Dungeons (Story and Explorable) and Fractals (Tiers and Challenge Mode)). > > > > > > > > In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse. > > > > > > > > Raids in GW2 are fun, and some of them are actually great, people just don't engage in them, and btw, there's a LOT of different difficulties in encounters, like i said, Escort is a great entry way, it's easier than some T4 Fractals and even some Dungeons (Arah for example), AND, again like i mentioned, Raids have less barriers to entry than Fractals T4, only barrier is your own performance. > > > > > > > > People don't even try, that's the problem. > > > > > > > > I don't even understand that last comment about lawns btw. > > > > > > Yes we clearly have never done raids. I guarantee Ive done more raids in my life then you and then some. Most of the posts on here advocating for some type of change, are well articulated and give poignant examples of the types of changes they would like to see and why, clearly people who are well versed in raids and raid mechanics. Saying that they need to simply play raids and stop complaining is disingenuous. > > > > First never bet or make guarantees without knowing what or who you're betting against. Life advice here. You might raid more than me in GW2, not too hard, since i've played it very seldom, most of my guild mates and friends have quit the game a long time ago, and i prefer doing that kind of content with my friends. > > > > I was actually addressing one person, to which i was replying. And while there's a lot of QoL stuff that could change in raids, for one the crap with VG blues is almost 2 years old and it still gets drowned in visual and auditory clutter., the LFG in this game isn't that robust either. A lot of people just want a easy farm, they want dumbed down and watered down content that they can farm. Which is not what Raids should be. > > And while i believe a lot of experienced raiders have given feedback, you jumped right into difficulty modes. And while that kinda worked for Fractals (more people do fractals than raids - i'm betting mostly because its 5 man, so easier to group) Raids have a different structure and rewards, also have a much smaller community that really can't afford to get split. > > > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said: > > > I don't see a problem with difficulty scaling in raids, like has been said... How does that in any way affect the people who already play them? It's just pointless elitism to think otherwise. > > > > It's watered down content. Raids are meant to be hard, that's their purpose. They were created specifically for those players that want hard content, so they shouldn't now be dumbed down to cater for others populations. You call it elitism, but one could say your argument is born out of entitlement as well. > > Also it **does** affect people that already play them. For starters those that already play it, especially the "bow wave" of "firsts" have to dedicate a ton of time to complete the content and get their rewards, and now you want the same rewards for a fraction of the work? > > I guarantee you that if they added easy mode but with like fractal-level rewards, no Li or Raid specific rewards, barely anyone would play it. > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > If there was a clear message "I'm chasing this guy because he has high Toughness?" and similar messages for other mechanics, then it would defeat any purpose of exploration or finding out the mechanics of a fight on your own. > > > > > > > > > > I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just making note that this mechanic is not an *obvious* one for people who aren't already aware of it going in. It's not something that a truly innocent pug "should be able to figure out for themselves" in any reasonable amount of time. There are good things about that *and* bad things about it, when we're talking about accessibility. > > > > > > > > > > >For those that do not want to find out the mechanics the hard way, there are always guides. > > > > > > > > > > And while I do think players should use what guides are available, part of the point of an easy mode is to take guess-work and prior knowledge as much out of he equation as possible, to be "pick up and play," *not* "trial and error." > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > You don't get it at all. GW2 is a good game, but a very mediocre MMORPG at best. > > > > > > > > > > That's only because you apparently have your own arbitrary distinctions as to what an MMORPG should and should not be, which conflict with what many other players think an MMORPG should and should not be. The things that you think make an MMO better or worse, *aren't* universal truths. > > > > > > > > > > >They could have designed their combat in a way that boon- and heal-sharing only works in parties and squads. > > > > > > > > > > That would be HORRIBLE. > > > > > > > > > > >They could have designed their combat in a way that by teaming up with others, you can spread out and farm/play more efficiently > > > > > > > > > > That would be AWFUL. > > > > > > > > > > Every single suggestion you've made to "improve" the game would only have made it *much much worse.* > > > > > > > > > > >Another mandatory design-element for MMORPGs is that people need to learn basic gameplay through basic content, which would be open world and story in GW2. The problem is that people don't learn that though. Basic content in GW2 is far too easy and doesn't feature any kind of difficulty-progression. That way, people don't learn to carry their own weight which should always be a mandatory goal of every MMORPG-developer. > > > > > > > > > > I've played a ton of different MMOs, and I don't think GW2's story does a worse job of teaching gameplay than any other. The problem that *every* MMO struggles with is that they give a wide variety of options, and it's hard to train a player when you can't assume what class or role the player intends to play. You can't require character skills that the player's character might not have, for example. > > > > > > > > > > >ANet rather became a slave to the auto-atk-mentality-community. They had to nerf natural gatekeepers like the Eater of Souls. People are crying about Serpent's Ire being to hard to complete. There is a reason why most LFG-squads have ridiculous LI and KP requirements, even though the content is fairly easy. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps that is because the community of players GW2 has attracted are not the players you *want* it to have attracted, but those players *like* the game, so maybe you're the one that's wrong here. > > > > > > > > > > >People always tend to mistake "easy" with "casual-friendly". GW2 is easy, but by being too easy it's far from being casual-friendly. GW2 suffers from many contradicting design-choices. ANet wasted a lot of potential through inconsistent and incoherent game-design. Sure, the game is successful, but please don't mistake "successful" with "has a lot of players". The game could be so much more than it currently is. > > > > > > > > > > As you've pointed out, it could have been *so* much worse. > > > > > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > >The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is. > > > > > >In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals. > > > > > > > > > > And the thing is, you say this unironically, seemingly not realizing that T4 Fractals are *also* harder than most players would care to play. > > > > > > > > > > >In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse. > > > > > > > > > > If the existing raid community actually *enjoys* the current raids, then adding easy modes will not "divide" that community. That community will keep doing what they're doing. All the easy mode would do is add a *new* community of players who currently do not raid, but would do so if the raids were "fun" by their own standards (which are different than your standards). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No becouse if there is a easier way to get the same thing people will do the path of least resistance9 > > > > > > 90+% dont raid at all, your suggesting therefore that existing raiders will switch to easy lol because it is path of least resistance > > > > Of course... If rewards are any where similar, easy mode would be just the perfect farm for experienced raiders. You only get the rewards once a week, so doing raids faster for similar rewards (especially if they would award Li) would obviously be preferable. Of course you'd risk losing those hard core guilds that create benchmarks, and guides, and all the juicy info everyone else uses. > > excellent, so the other 90% of the game population actually gets 10 man instances they want to play, and raiders also get extra content they want to play. All you need to do os slow down the reward rate in the normal mode raids to keep it balanced, e.g normal raids has its own currency for gear that takes x tiems longer than top level raid. Jobs a good un, everyone wins. First you're assuming the other 90% want that content. And it wouldn't be extra content for raiders would it? Just a watered down version of what they have? I mean if the other 90% want easy content, they can do Escort for example. There's nothing hard about it, like i said earlier you can do it easily, without fuss, its easier than anything Arah throws at you, and easier than most fractals. Yet they don't do it **BY CHOICE**, which indicates to me that that 90% (which, again isn't 90%, closer to 70%) isn't interested in **ANY** ten man content.> @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > Jobs a good un, everyone wins. > > > > I'm curious, what would happen to the game if the majority of the game's population was inside Raid instances? > > We'd have a complete U-turn from the premises this game launched on. Current raids mostly complement the original goals, i.e. providing challenging instanced group content, what dungeons failed at. However, I'm very confident that even with infantile mode we would not see a majority in raids, since it's obvious that a large part of the game population doesn't care about instanced PvE. Exactly.> @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > >No Im saying that its human nature to take the easiest way to get stuff. > > > > > > Then why would anyone want to raid? > > > > Because some people enjoy challenging content and they don't play for rewards but play for the fun of challenge? I read the entire thread and couldn't see a single point you said something reasonable. > > I assumed that was the case, but Linken said that people don't do that. Hence the question. There seems to be some confusion on this issue. They do that, but once you've surpassed the challenge several times, if there's an easier alternative for the same goal, anyone would take that. That's why there's perceived "elitism" because after having to struggle several times to complete Raids, a lot of raiders prefer not to, and seek to group up with people that are experienced enough that they don't need to struggle again. But there's still a lot of **very** experienced players that will still group in training squads and help out the new people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I do think that as they continue to add more raids they need to give more thought to "total raid reward" caps to disincentivize players running *every* encounter every week. I disagree. The current reward-structures aren't well designed. They discourage people to play the content for fun. Friends of yours probably won't raid with you if they already have a static. That's kinda sad considering that raids actually are fun. They should rework the system in a way which encourages veterans to play with people who are new to the content. That's how traditional MMORPGs work anyways: a healthy mix of veterans and newbies, where veterans have an educational influence on newbies. Would be nice if they'd disable the MS-cap and add some worthwhile stuff to buy from them for a start. So yeah... More rewards should be the solution (but not as much as to further encourage raid-selling of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > I do think that as they continue to add more raids they need to give more thought to "total raid reward" caps to disincentivize players running *every* encounter every week. > > I disagree. The current reward-structures aren't well designed. They discourage people to play the content for fun. Friends of yours probably won't raid with you if they already have a static. That's kinda sad considering that raids actually are fun. They should rework the system in a way which encourages veterans to play with people who are new to the content. That's how traditional MMORPGs work anyways: a healthy mix of veterans and newbies, where veterans have an educational influence on newbies. Would be nice if they'd disable the MS-cap and add some worthwhile stuff to buy from them for a start. So yeah... More rewards should be the solution. > I think you're wrong at this. Raiders want a static because it's a stable group where they can play and learn safely, because their static is their group of friends too, because it's better to play with people you know and feel comfortable with. I have one static right now, I had two statics some months ago, and I still raided with any other friend who wanted to raid with me or needed help. Because I'm not in raids just for a full clear, I'm in raids because I like to raid. And you'll see a lot of veteran raiders who are just like that. Training groups even get some experienced members usually. Two days ago I joined a Samarog training group just for fun, and we killed it first try. Today I joined a Deimos CM group because a guildie needed a handkiter, even though I already have the CM. Some months ago I stayed for two hours with a group that was completely new to raids, they needed a druid for VG, and tought them and helped them until we killed the boss. I do it just because I like to raid, and I like to help. Lots of raiders are like that. I remember when I started raiding -lots of experienced players joined my group and helped us, I even remember their names. I still see them from time to time in the aerodrome, and I'm thankful. I think the raiding community helps newbies a lot. If someone just does their full clear and forget about raids for the rest of the week... well, I think that person doesn't really like raids, so they would never play them for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > Jobs a good un, everyone wins. > > I'm curious, what would happen to the game if the majority of the game's population was inside Raid instances? same as existing raiders, an hour or 2 doing 10 mans and the rest of the time spread wherever else the player fancies doesn't change anything, at the end of the day a mmorpg is all about providing interesting content for players to progress their characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > same as existing raiders, an hour or 2 doing 10 mans and the rest of the time spread wherever else the player fancies doesn't change anything, at the end of the day a mmorpg is all about providing interesting content for players to progress their characters. But the ratio of casual to raider in this game is in mass favor of casual, or so I'm told, therefore the raiding population isn't high enough to cause any population shortages in other parts of the game. On the other hand, if you make this content available to this "casual majority", you risk a population shortage for the rest of the game, which is built for that casual majority in the first place. There already is a population shortage due to the huge imbalance of rewards in open world content, the "best gold/hour" ratio content gets the most players while other parts get less and some are even empty. Now you want to add one more reason to lower those populations. Food for thought: Why do you think the challenge motes give one-time rewards and not have weekly rewards like normal raids? Maybe because if they did, the population that runs normal raids would be hit hard because many players would move on to running the challenge mote versions instead of the normal version? Just a consideration of what happens when you add more versions of the same mode. Also, take a look at T3 fractals, which is a wasteland and T2 which is empty most of the time with some little exceptions here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > same as existing raiders, an hour or 2 doing 10 mans and the rest of the time spread wherever else the player fancies doesn't change anything, at the end of the day a mmorpg is all about providing interesting content for players to progress their characters. > > But the ratio of casual to raider in this game is in mass favor of casual, or so I'm told, therefore the raiding population isn't high enough to cause any population shortages in other parts of the game. On the other hand, if you make this content available to this "casual majority", you risk a population shortage for the rest of the game, which is built for that casual majority in the first place. There already is a population shortage due to the huge imbalance of rewards in open world content, the "best gold/hour" ratio content gets the most players while other parts get less and some are even empty. Now you want to add one more reason to lower those populations. > > Food for thought: > Why do you think the challenge motes give one-time rewards and not have weekly rewards like normal raids? > Maybe because if they did, the population that runs normal raids would be hit hard because many players would move on to running the challenge mote versions instead of the normal version? Just a consideration of what happens when you add more versions of the same mode. > Also, take a look at T3 fractals, which is a wasteland and T2 which is empty most of the time with some little exceptions here and there. as i said, if the majority of player had access to 10 man instances they enjoy then just like fractals they will spend a portion of time in them, not all time. Fearing content because it could be popular is a bit self defeating don't you think :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > as i said, if the majority of player had access to 10 man instances they enjoy then just like fractals they will spend a portion of time in them, not all time. Fearing content because it could be popular is a bit self defeating don't you think :) Fearing about the population is a very serious consideration, or at least it should be. Otherwise we wouldn't get messed up things like AB ML and all the other lucrative mass farms that turn the rest of the game into a wasteland while they exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > as i said, if the majority of player had access to 10 man instances they enjoy then just like fractals they will spend a portion of time in them, not all time. Fearing content because it could be popular is a bit self defeating don't you think :) > > Fearing about the population is a very serious consideration, or at least it should be. Otherwise we wouldn't get messed up things like AB ML and all the other lucrative mass farms that turn the rest of the game into a wasteland while they exist. So were saying raids are ok because hardly anyone enjoys them, but if lots of people enjoy them its a bad thing? You could argue the same about fractals. Fact is instances and rpg's have always been and always will be core to the rpg experience., its something to be embraced, although you can mitigate by focusing the role of open world to support material farming and cash rewards etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > So were saying raids are ok because hardly anyone enjoys them, but if lots of people enjoy them its a bad thing? You could argue the same about fractals. Fact is instances and rpg's have always been and always will be core to the rpg experience., its something to be embraced, although you can mitigate by focusing the role of open world to support material farming and cash rewards etc. Raids are ok as long as they provide content for a specific part of the playerbase that enjoys them, a specific part that was told dungeons were going to fill their needs (but failed to do so). If they become something for "everyone" then the game becomes completely centered in Raids (like those other raiding mmorpgs) and I don't think that's healthy. for this game. Say what you want about Raids, but the core of the game is still out there in the open world, and you want to remove that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > So were saying raids are ok because hardly anyone enjoys them, but if lots of people enjoy them its a bad thing? You could argue the same about fractals. Fact is instances and rpg's have always been and always will be core to the rpg experience., its something to be embraced, although you can mitigate by focusing the role of open world to support material farming and cash rewards etc. > > Raids are ok as long as they provide content for a specific part of the playerbase that enjoys them, a specific part that was told dungeons were going to fill their needs (but failed to do so). If they become something for "everyone" then the game becomes completely centered in Raids (like those other raiding mmorpgs) and I don't think that's healthy. for this game. Say what you want about Raids, but the core of the game is still out there in the open world, and you want to remove that. No im not saying that, there are many many ways you can restrict how much time you spend in a raid so it doesn't overpower a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > We'd have a complete U-turn from the premises this game launched on. Current raids mostly complement the original goals, i.e. providing challenging instanced group content, what dungeons failed at. However, I'm very confident that even with infantile mode we would not see a majority in raids, since it's obvious that a large part of the game population doesn't care about instanced PvE. > > Well if T1 Fractals had rewards comparable to let's say Palawadan we'd see loads more running T1 Fractals since it seems to me that the game's population moves where the best rewards are. > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > I don't know that it would make a huge difference, since they added the multi-server maps, so as long as some people are running open world content, they would end up on the same maps. > > > > And even if the majority of players *do* raids, that doesn't mean the majority of the people laying would be *in* a raid at any given time, since most players would only spend a couple hours a week doing raids and then spend the rest of their time doing something else. > > In raiding mmorpgs (that have multiple different difficulties for raids) raids are the major part of the game while the open world is more of an after thought, in that situation having multiple difficulty tiers makes sense because that's the focus of the game. Guild Wars 2 is different though and adding more tiers of difficulty in Raids would certainly move this more closer to a full raiding mmorpg, instead of raiding being a relatively small part of it. What actual effect it would have on the open world population is uncertain but it certainly depends on what kind of rewards it gives compared to the difficulty. > > > I do think that as they continue to add more raids they need to give more thought to "total raid reward" caps to disincentivize players running *every* encounter every week. > > Even more important than that, what happens if someone runs both. Will they be able to get both normal and easy mode rewards on the same week? Challenge motes solve this "problem" by being one time only rewards, therefore there is little reason to repeat them on a schedule. Your thoughts on this are very interesting and I didn’t take that into much consideration, that putting more incentive into raids could damage the rest of the game. Do you guys think they will cap the Raids off at a certain amount of raids, like dungeons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > > We'd have a complete U-turn from the premises this game launched on. Current raids mostly complement the original goals, i.e. providing challenging instanced group content, what dungeons failed at. However, I'm very confident that even with infantile mode we would not see a majority in raids, since it's obvious that a large part of the game population doesn't care about instanced PvE. > > > > Well if T1 Fractals had rewards comparable to let's say Palawadan we'd see loads more running T1 Fractals since it seems to me that the game's population moves where the best rewards are. > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > I don't know that it would make a huge difference, since they added the multi-server maps, so as long as some people are running open world content, they would end up on the same maps. > > > > > > And even if the majority of players *do* raids, that doesn't mean the majority of the people laying would be *in* a raid at any given time, since most players would only spend a couple hours a week doing raids and then spend the rest of their time doing something else. > > > > In raiding mmorpgs (that have multiple different difficulties for raids) raids are the major part of the game while the open world is more of an after thought, in that situation having multiple difficulty tiers makes sense because that's the focus of the game. Guild Wars 2 is different though and adding more tiers of difficulty in Raids would certainly move this more closer to a full raiding mmorpg, instead of raiding being a relatively small part of it. What actual effect it would have on the open world population is uncertain but it certainly depends on what kind of rewards it gives compared to the difficulty. > > > > > I do think that as they continue to add more raids they need to give more thought to "total raid reward" caps to disincentivize players running *every* encounter every week. > > > > Even more important than that, what happens if someone runs both. Will they be able to get both normal and easy mode rewards on the same week? Challenge motes solve this "problem" by being one time only rewards, therefore there is little reason to repeat them on a schedule. > > Your thoughts on this are very interesting and I didn’t take that into much consideration, that putting more incentive into raids could damage the rest of the game. > > Do you guys think they will cap the Raids off at a certain amount of raids, like dungeons? I really hope they don't because I enjoy raiding in this game, a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > > We'd have a complete U-turn from the premises this game launched on. Current raids mostly complement the original goals, i.e. providing challenging instanced group content, what dungeons failed at. However, I'm very confident that even with infantile mode we would not see a majority in raids, since it's obvious that a large part of the game population doesn't care about instanced PvE. > > > > Well if T1 Fractals had rewards comparable to let's say Palawadan we'd see loads more running T1 Fractals since it seems to me that the game's population moves where the best rewards are. > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > I don't know that it would make a huge difference, since they added the multi-server maps, so as long as some people are running open world content, they would end up on the same maps. > > > > > > And even if the majority of players *do* raids, that doesn't mean the majority of the people laying would be *in* a raid at any given time, since most players would only spend a couple hours a week doing raids and then spend the rest of their time doing something else. > > > > In raiding mmorpgs (that have multiple different difficulties for raids) raids are the major part of the game while the open world is more of an after thought, in that situation having multiple difficulty tiers makes sense because that's the focus of the game. Guild Wars 2 is different though and adding more tiers of difficulty in Raids would certainly move this more closer to a full raiding mmorpg, instead of raiding being a relatively small part of it. What actual effect it would have on the open world population is uncertain but it certainly depends on what kind of rewards it gives compared to the difficulty. > > > > > I do think that as they continue to add more raids they need to give more thought to "total raid reward" caps to disincentivize players running *every* encounter every week. > > > > Even more important than that, what happens if someone runs both. Will they be able to get both normal and easy mode rewards on the same week? Challenge motes solve this "problem" by being one time only rewards, therefore there is little reason to repeat them on a schedule. > > Your thoughts on this are very interesting and I didn’t take that into much consideration, that putting more incentive into raids could damage the rest of the game. > > Do you guys think they will cap the Raids off at a certain amount of raids, like dungeons? lets bec clear, the original Guild wars had normal and hard mode raids and it was never an issue, players happily played in zones and in raids. a raid is jsut a 10 man instance in an easier format, it does not require the hours and hours of play higher level of tuning requires - that's kinda the point, casual, swift and fun raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Do you guys think they will cap the Raids off at a certain amount of raids, like dungeons? No that would be unreasonable, although at some point there might be issues with the number of Raid wings available. There was a thread not long ago asking for all Raids to "fit" in one evening, regardless of how many more will be added. When the discussion on "easy modes" for Raids first came up years ago, I said that although a new mode for Raids isn't something that should be considered/added now, there might be some time in the future that some adjustment will be required. I don't think we are at that point in time -yet- but this could be an interesting discussion on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Do you guys think they will cap the Raids off at a certain amount of raids, like dungeons? > > No that would be unreasonable, although at some point there might be issues with the number of Raid wings available. > There was a thread not long ago asking for all Raids to "fit" in one evening, regardless of how many more will be added. I suppose they would have to limit raids in order to fit in an evening, or make it so there is a cap on the week for LI. Mind you that in itself might cause further problems of people choosing the quickest route each week and ignoring the drawn out encounters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > In raiding mmorpgs (that have multiple different difficulties for raids) raids are the major part of the game while the open world is more of an after thought, in that situation having multiple difficulty tiers makes sense because that's the focus of the game. That's an arbitrary distinction to insist on. This game can have as much focus on either or both elements as the community wants. There is nothing about GW2 that indicates that having multiple difficulties for raids would not be appreciated, or that it would involve such significant effort that it would reduce the production of open world content. There is no Rubicon beyond which GW2 "becomes a raid game" and has to abandon anything, and *if* such a thing exists, it was when they added raids in the first place. Any argument against easy mode raids that is on the basis of "conceptual purity" or "workload" is an argument against having raids in *any* form. >Even more important than that, what happens if someone runs both. Will they be able to get both normal and easy mode rewards on the same week? Well, that's something we've been discussing off and on through these threads, and the answer is, "there are multiple solutions, and which is best really depends on what sort of easy mode we come up with." They could make it so you could just do both, and hard mode raiders could get more total rewards that way, but it might give them "content overload" and burn them out, which wouldn't be great. Or, they could make it so that getting the rewards for one would lock out the rewards for the other, but then you might miss out on hard mode rewards by clearing easy mode raids, and that's not cool. Maybe there could be a "soft lockout," in which if you cleared hard mode, you could not get any rewards from the easy version of that battle that week, while if you cleared easy mode you could still get some rewards from hard, but they would be reduced, so that the total ends up being the same as just clearing hard (plus a few generic knick-knacks for your effort in doing both). Basically, it's impossible to determine the "best solution" here without determining a lot of other aspects of the process first, but there's no reason to believe that this would be a difficult problem to solve once all the other variables are in place. > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > They do that, but once you've surpassed the challenge several times, if there's an easier alternative for the same goal, anyone would take that. That's why there's perceived "elitism" because after having to struggle several times to complete Raids, a lot of raiders prefer not to, and seek to group up with people that are experienced enough that they don't need to struggle again. But there's still a lot of **very** experienced players that will still group in training squads and help out the new people. Ok, so if even raiders would prefer to farm easy mode, then providing easy mode would make raiders happy too! > @"Raizel.8175" said: >I disagree. The current reward-structures aren't well designed. They discourage people to play the content for fun. Friends of yours probably won't raid with you if they already have a static. Well, it's always a tradeoff. If you offer too much rewards then it really drives people to do as much as possible every reset, to feel that they are "missing out" by leaving potential LI on the table, for example. People only have so many hours in the day, and the more they're asked to do, the faster they burn out on it. But as you say, if there's *no* reason to repeat content, then people won't repeat it just to help friends or whatever. It's tricky to balance. I think that there should be caps to the max amount of "special, chase" rewards, so that people don't feel compelled to do everything every week in an endless grind. At the same time, basic rewards can be infinite, allowing people who really enjoy raiding to do so and get a decent amount of return on their investment, equivalent to whatever else they could have been doing with their time. If a player has any interest in playing GW2 this hour, and someone would like them to join in a raid, then they should be offered enough loot from it that it would be "worthwhile," without the loot being the primary driver for them going. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > On the other hand, if you make this content available to this "casual majority", you risk a population shortage for the rest of the game, which is built for that casual majority in the first place. Nah. >Also, take a look at T3 fractals, which is a wasteland and T2 which is empty most of the time with some little exceptions here and there. Fractals has too many difficulty levels. You just need two, ONE for players who really like a challenge and want to crash against it until they overcome, and ONE for players that just want a fairly chill experience that is engaging but not overly frustrating. Two total. Anything more than that is overkill. If the hard one is too hard for you, but the easy one is too easy, git gud, the easy mode is for the people that don't care about that nonsense. > @"Tyson.5160" said: > I suppose they would have to limit raids in order to fit in an evening, or make it so there is a cap on the week for LI. Mind you that in itself might cause further problems of people choosing the quickest route each week and ignoring the drawn out encounters. Yeah, but the solution there would be to balance rewards a bit so that the longer ones were at least a bit more rewarding. Either way, even if they don't cap the total number of raids, the "longer, more annoying" encounters will see less and less play, since not everyone has time to clear them all anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > That's an arbitrary distinction to insist on. This game can have as much focus on either or both elements as the community wants. There is nothing about GW2 that indicates that having multiple difficulties for raids would not be appreciated, or that it would involve such significant effort that it would reduce the production of open world content. There is no Rubicon beyond which GW2 "becomes a raid game" and has to abandon anything, and *if* such a thing exists, it was when they added raids in the first place. Any argument against easy mode raids that is on the basis of "conceptual purity" or "workload" is an argument against having raids in *any* form. > A game doesn't become a "raiding game" if it just adds some Raids, it's extra content for those that like that sort of content. It becomes a "raiding game" when they become the actual focus of the game, meaning the entire game revolves around them. > Fractals has too many difficulty levels. You just need two, ONE for players who really like a challenge and want to crash against it until they overcome, and ONE for players that just want a fairly chill experience that is engaging but not overly frustrating. Two total. Anything more than that is overkill. If the hard one is too hard for you, but the easy one is too easy, git gud, the easy mode is for the people that don't care about that nonsense. And what happens for those players that find the easy version too hard? Or you want to eliminate that completely and make this new version for the absolute lowest possible skill level? That would make these "Raids" considerably easier than even open world content or story battles, if that even makes any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Just a random thought of mine: Don't we already have easy-mode-raids? Raids a very centered on support-roles (well, mostly chrono and druid). They basically handle all the mechanics and bear the responsibility of success or failure. Since you (mostly) don't have any kind of responsibility as dps-spec, can't that be considered raid-easy-mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin.6921 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Do you guys think they will cap the Raids off at a certain amount of raids, like dungeons? > > > > No that would be unreasonable, although at some point there might be issues with the number of Raid wings available. > > There was a thread not long ago asking for all Raids to "fit" in one evening, regardless of how many more will be added. > > I suppose they would have to limit raids in order to fit in an evening, or make it so there is a cap on the week for LI. Mind you that in itself might cause further problems of people choosing the quickest route each week and ignoring the drawn out encounters. > > I think thats were the call of the mists comes in. For now it gives extra gold and xp. Later than could be extended in with Li or currency i suppose. With more raid wings there will be a per week shifting priority based on the reward. And later when there are enough wings in the game you can have mutliple of them having the call. So a squad that can only raid a single night a week can choose to prioritize those wings for that specific week that have the call. > @"Raizel.8175" said: > Just a random thought of mine: Don't we already have easy-mode-raids? Raids a very centered on support-roles (well, mostly chrono and druid). They basically handle all the mechanics and bear the responsibility of success or failure. Since you (mostly) don't have any kind of responsibility as dps-spec, can't that be considered raid-easy-mode? Not exactly. Depends on the boss and the strategy. But the difficulty definitely varies both in how tough the boss is and on how many ppl the boss mechanics pressure falls upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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