Ohoni.6057 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding. > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better? > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP. > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger. > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself: > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it. > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid. > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2. > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle. > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode. > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes. > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop. > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players. > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot. > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely. > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves. > > > > > > > > > > Pick one > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want. > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window. > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all. > > > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money. It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding. > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better? > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP. > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger. > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself: > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it. > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid. > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2. > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle. > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode. > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes. > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop. > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players. > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot. > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely. > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want. > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window. > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money. > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period. Another case of open-mindness on your side, I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding. > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better? > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP. > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger. > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself: > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it. > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid. > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2. > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle. > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode. > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes. > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop. > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players. > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot. > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely. > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want. > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window. > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money. > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period. For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money. > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period. > > Another case of open-mindness on your side, I see. So basically if you went to one of those Evo fighter tournaments or something, and paid one of the best players to stand there working the controls for you, while you took all the credit, you wouldn't consider that to be cheating? I mean, keeping an open mind can be a good thing, so long as you don't let your brain fall out. > @"nia.4725" said: > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor". Playing alternate *legitimate* games modes, *for myself* would not be cheating. It's not cheating to play easy mode in a single player game, it's just playing the way you enjoy. ANet is the game company, part of the job is to create modes that would appeal to their players, to make the game the best it can be. Paying ANet to make the game is just with way the games industry works. Paying *players* to take the controls and play the game for you is something else entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money. > > > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period. > > > > Another case of open-mindness on your side, I see. > > So basically if you went to one of those Evo fighter tournaments or something, and paid one of the best players to stand there working the controls for you, while you took all the credit, you wouldn't consider that to be cheating? > > I mean, keeping an open mind can be a good thing, so long as you don't let your brain fall out. I basically don't see a difference between paying a player to play the game for you and asking the game to be dumbed down for you. In both cases you're looking to get credit for something you didn't actually do. Why is it that you cannot accept the idea of not getting a particular reward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: >I basically don't see a difference between paying a player to play the game for you and asking the game to be dumbed down for you. Ok. That's weird, but ok. >In both cases you're looking to get credit for something you didn't actually do. . . . No. . . I'm not seeing "credit for something you didn't actually do," I'm seeking credit for something I *did* do, which is to complete the easy mode version of the raids a bunch of times. I intend to put in that work and earn the rewards I get. >Why is it that you cannot accept the idea of not getting a particular reward? Because I think it'd look cool on one of my characters, and don't see any benefit to it being unavailable. Like I said, I'm open to the idea of some reward being restricted to hard mode raids, just not armor or weapon skins. I'm even cool with them keeping exclusive access to the chair, since people can sit in normal chairs now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Playing alternate *legitimate* games modes, *for myself* would not be cheating. It's not cheating to play easy mode in a single player game, it's just playing the way you enjoy. ANet is the game company, part of the job is to create modes that would appeal to their players, to make the game the best it can be. Paying ANet to make the game is just with way the games industry works. Paying *players* to take the controls and play the game for you is something else entirely. I haven't said it would be cheating, Ohoni. If you are the one playing, you're not cheating. However it isn't fair to get an easy mode just because you're not interested in normal mode. So what? If you're not interested in raids, do not play raids. What you're doing here is asking anet to give you the shiny thing while giving you a way to get that shiny thing where you don't need to make the effort anet decided everybody would do in order to get it. That's not cheating, nope, but it's unfair and it's cheesing your way to the shiny thing. Also, don't be fooled. You're not paying Anet to make the game. Anet does not work for their players. You're paying to have ACCESS to the game, and while Anet should listen to their players and needs to know what their players are interested in, that does not mean that they owe anything to them nor it means that they have to do what players want. GW2 isn't mine nor yours. GW2 is purely Anet's property and we're players paying to be able to play their game. pd. don't mix buying a kill (paying someone to kill the boss and stay afk/gg while they do it, this is accepted by anet) with paying someone else to log into your account and actually playing the game for you (not accepted by anet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: >I haven't said it would be cheating, Ohoni. If you are the one playing, you're not cheating. However it isn't fair to get an easy mode just because you're not interested in normal mode. Why not? Players that liked normal mode raids got normal mode raids, why shouldn't people who like easy mode raids get easy mode raids? >What you're doing here is asking anet to give you the shiny thing you while giving you a way to get that shiny thing where you don't need to make the effort anet decided everybody would do in order to get it. Yeah, but what's wrong with that? It's all arbitrary. You can only get Envoy armor right now because so far, ANet's decided that's the only place you can get it. They can change their minds, there's nothing wrong about that. You used to need to make two Legendary weapons to wield two at once, now you only need to make one. You used to have to complete dungeons to get dungeon rewards, now you can just PvP. You used to have to either get very RNG lucky or use the TP to get a Legendary Precursor, now you can craft them. You used to have to complete limited time story events to get certain backpieces, now you can get them for logging in. There are plenty of places in the game where an item worked one way, and then they changed it. There's nothing wrong with that if the result ends up benefiting more players. When they let you reskin items with Legendary skins, it cut into some of the "prestige" and "devalued the efforts" of people who had done the work of getting two. When they added dungeon rewards to PvP tracks it made them *much* easier to farm. When they added precursor crafting, the bottom fell out on some precursors on the TP. When they added LWS1 backpieces for laurels, it devalued the efforts of people who's gone to the trouble of getting them the original way. But it's ok! Yes, some people "lose out" when things are made more available, mostly for imagined or self-important reasons, but ultimately it benefits far more than it harms, by making those items more available. Do I miss the slight rarity of the original Mad King's flaming backpack? I tiny bit, sure, but that's nothing when put up against someone who never had it before and is happy to have it now. >Also, don't be fooled. You're not paying Anet to make the game. Anet does not work for their players. You're paying to have ACCESS to the game, and while Anet should listen to their players and needs to know what their players are interested in, that does not mean that they owe anything to them nor it means that they have to do what players want. GW2 isn't mine nor yours. GW2 is purely Anet's property and we're players paying to be able to play their game. Eh, semantics. Yeah, they can do whatever they want, I'm not saying they're bound to the players like a genie, but at the same time, if they aren't producing a product that the players want, then they lose customers, and would ultimately go out of business, so you can't say that they can just "make whatever they want" and have it work out in their best interests. And even if they can baseline satisfy a lot of people, if they can take steps that would *improve* the user experience, make more players more happy, then they are losing money by not doing so. They can, but should they? Just because you don't want anyone else to have your shinies? >pd. don't mix buying a kill (paying someone to kill the boss and stay afk/gg while they do it, this is accepted by anet) with paying someone else to log into your account and actually playing the game for you (not accepted by anet). Semantics. Either way you'd be paying someone else to do all the work. It's like the difference between paying a hitman, but you go along to watch, verses paying a hitman but staying at home while he does it. Either way you're paying a hitman to do the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 Easy envoy armor. For minimum effort. Whats next? Easy warbringer? Easy sublime armor skin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > Easy envoy armor. For minimum effort. Whats next? Easy warbringer? Easy sublime armor skin? pvp with bots as the opponents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > >pd. don't mix buying a kill (paying someone to kill the boss and stay afk/gg while they do it, this is accepted by anet) with paying someone else to log into your account and actually playing the game for you (not accepted by anet). > > Semantics. Either way you'd be paying someone else to do all the work. It's like the difference between paying a hitman, but you go along to watch, verses paying a hitman but staying at home while he does it. Either way you're paying a hitman to do the job. > Oh, the irony. Where's the proper word usage now? Where are the "real" dictionaries? :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 Today i was "tanking" VG. The twist is that i wasnt since our dps firebrand had more then 2390 toughness. I am ok if players get envoy for less effort then me. But it cannot be 0 effort. Player that goes to raids and is not willing to learn shouldnt get it. If you want easy raids that everyone can clear easily then this guy should too. For my point of view he has 0 effort. 0. For me less effort is if someones clear with 3 healers, not optimal uptime on boons... But they need to make effort. They either need to try improve or find a way to minimalize their weaknesses One group out of my guild clears with 2 minstrelk chronos, 2 heal druids and dragonhunters/soulbeasts. They sometimes even dwap one of their dps to auramancer. I have no problem with this. They make it much easier for themselves. They know that they tend to fail some mechanic so they compensate. Another group runs chaos chrono, soulbeast with spirits, war, viper quickness firebrand, healer renegade and weavers on some bosses because it is more overall dps. One group put much more dedication to raids but bith can have envoy in same time. But both of them put some effort into raids. You want legendary armor for free (and yes, what you are proposing is basicaly free)? Well i want to get all minerals l and logs on whole map mined by double clicking my mining tool because i dont enjoy farming it (and i cannot buy them on TP when you dont want to buy raids) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Today i was "tanking" VG. The twist is that i wasnt since our dps firebrand had more then 2390 toughness. I am ok if players get envoy for less effort then me. But it cannot be 0 effort. Player that goes to raids and is not willing to learn shouldnt get it. If you want easy raids that everyone can clear easily then this guy should too. For my point of view he has 0 effort. 0. > > For me less effort is if someones clear with 3 healers, not optimal uptime on boons... But they need to make effort. They either need to try improve or find a way to minimalize their weaknesses > > One group out of my guild clears with 2 minstrelk chronos, 2 heal druids and dragonhunters/soulbeasts. They sometimes even dwap one of their dps to auramancer. > > I have no problem with this. They make it much easier for themselves. They know that they tend to fail some mechanic so they compensate. > > Another group runs chaos chrono, soulbeast with spirits, war, viper quickness firebrand, healer renegade and weavers on some bosses because it is more overall dps. > > One group put much more dedication to raids but bith can have envoy in same time. But both of them put some effort into raids. > > You want legendary armor for free (and yes, what you are proposing is basicaly free)? Well i want to get all minerals l and logs on whole map mined by double clicking my mining tool because i dont enjoy farming it (and i cannot buy them on TP when you dont want to buy raids) Compositions vary, having a more defensive composition does not mean you're doing less effort. Every static has its own style. Going purely meta is plain boring and shows little knowledge by the raid leader. The RL must know what the members are best at, what they enjoy, and the weaknesses and strong points of the group. I'll give you some examples, thief is considered pretty low in DPS and would never be chosen by a lot of people, but in my static we have a main thief who's very experienced playing it. He absolutely loves it. So my RL allows him to play thief where it's viable and he slays. We have two heal firebrand players (one of them being me) and we use fb in Cairn, Trio, Matthias, River of Souls, Statues (the eye; we don't bring chrono nor druid, just 1 heal fb and 4 dps). Last week I tanked Desmina with a heal firebrand and it was much better than tanking with minstrel chrono, by far. Also, minstrel chronos are very useful and even the best option in some bosses, like Vale Guardian, Xera, Deimos, and Dhuum (tanking ofc). Now that druid is so badly nerfed? My static is going to drop druid in some bosses. No druid. Only minstrel chronos. Do you know the bad DPS of a power revenant? We use it, too. Does all that mean that we do less effort? Nah, pretty much the contrary. I agree that 2 minstrel chronos and 2 heal druids might be too much for a lot of bosses, but I also think you're jumping to conclusions too quickly. Running 3 healers does not mean it's less effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Today i was "tanking" VG. The twist is that i wasnt since our dps firebrand had more then 2390 toughness. I am ok if players get envoy for less effort then me. But it cannot be 0 effort. Player that goes to raids and is not willing to learn shouldnt get it. If you want easy raids that everyone can clear easily then this guy should too. For my point of view he has 0 effort. 0. > > > > For me less effort is if someones clear with 3 healers, not optimal uptime on boons... But they need to make effort. They either need to try improve or find a way to minimalize their weaknesses > > > > One group out of my guild clears with 2 minstrelk chronos, 2 heal druids and dragonhunters/soulbeasts. They sometimes even dwap one of their dps to auramancer. > > > > I have no problem with this. They make it much easier for themselves. They know that they tend to fail some mechanic so they compensate. > > > > Another group runs chaos chrono, soulbeast with spirits, war, viper quickness firebrand, healer renegade and weavers on some bosses because it is more overall dps. > > > > One group put much more dedication to raids but bith can have envoy in same time. But both of them put some effort into raids. > > > > You want legendary armor for free (and yes, what you are proposing is basicaly free)? Well i want to get all minerals l and logs on whole map mined by double clicking my mining tool because i dont enjoy farming it (and i cannot buy them on TP when you dont want to buy raids) > > Compositions vary, having a more defensive composition does not mean you're doing less effort. Every static has its own style. Going purely meta is plain boring and shows little knowledge by the raid leader. The RL must know what the members are best at, what they enjoy, and the weaknesses and strong points of the group. > > I'll give you some examples, thief is considered pretty low in DPS and would never be chosen by a lot of people, but in my static we have a main thief who's very experienced playing it. He absolutely loves it. So my RL allows him to play thief where it's viable and he slays. We have two heal firebrand players (one of them being me) and we use fb in Cairn, Trio, Matthias, River of Souls, Statues (the eye; we don't bring chrono nor druid, just 1 heal fb and 4 dps). Last week I tanked Desmina with a heal firebrand and it was much better tanking with minstrel chrono, by far. Also, minstrel chronos are very useful and even the best option in some bosses, like Vale Guardian, Xera, Deimos, and Dhuum (tanking ofc). Now that druid is so badly nerfed? My static is going to drop druid in some bosses. No druid. Only minstrel chronos. Do you know the bad DPS of a power revenant? We use it, too. > > Does all that mean that we do less effort? Nah, pretty much the contrary. I agree that 2 minstrel chronos and 2 heal druids might be too much for a lot of bosses, but I also think you're jumping to conclusions too quickly. Running 3 healers does not mean it's less effort. Exactly. All I am saying is that if you decide to go for safer option comp you can make more mistakes but fight last longer. On the other hand if you pick risky comp then every mistake is more punishing. I like when players build their compositions based on their style and capabilities. If someone put some time to think about it that is efforet by me. But if you dont have to think about anything and failing mechanics doesnt matter then it is 0 effort. If you can clear by just auto atacking without doing mechanics then its like you are afk and that is what ohoni is asking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > There are less then 20 bosses and you can kill all of them in less then 4 hours. I am playing more then 4 hours each week. That means that i kill some bosses multiple times per week because raids are fun and there is nothing else to do. > I think if easy raids were added to the game many raiders would do full clear of easy raids after normal full clear just because they have nothing to do and easy raids are free (for them) rewards but it is not mindless. Thats why i loved f40 farm, it was great for gold but your income was incresed if you mastered it and diference between 2 minutes runs and 3 minute runs was enormous. > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. They'd get no more rewards for doing easy + normal than for just normal, though, so there would be no point in farming. > @"nia.4725" said: > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor". Well, nerfing raids would, from my point of view be an even better solution than just implementing easy mode. I never wanted them in the game in the first place, after all. That's not what we've been discussing about, though (a shame, i know). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > There are less then 20 bosses and you can kill all of them in less then 4 hours. I am playing more then 4 hours each week. That means that i kill some bosses multiple times per week because raids are fun and there is nothing else to do. > > I think if easy raids were added to the game many raiders would do full clear of easy raids after normal full clear just because they have nothing to do and easy raids are free (for them) rewards but it is not mindless. Thats why i loved f40 farm, it was great for gold but your income was incresed if you mastered it and diference between 2 minutes runs and 3 minute runs was enormous. > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > They'd get no more rewards for doing easy + normal than for just normal, though, so there would be no point in farming. > So then clear easy first and then do normal? I guess it would be way to complicated to introduce something that check if you already done normal/easy. Also what about doing half bosses easy and other normal... Way too much time spend by developers so I am against it. Better to give us new raid wings/fractals :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Only if we are engaged in a one-on-one conversation Took about 2 minutes of a google search to dig this up from the easy mode thread with a poll: > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > It almost feels like people want mechanics to be removed so raids can become mini core world bosses everyone can kill with 1-1-1-2.But with waaaaaaay better shinies. Almost. > Yes, that is how a strawman argument works, when instead of addressing the point someone is making, you address "almost" what they are saying. Oh I'm sure _someone_ out there wants raid bosses to be mini-world bosses, but you didn't hold back accusing _him_ of a strawman. So why are you excusing yourself for the exact same offense? It's hypocrisy at its finest. :lol: > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > You were citing them as reasons **why an easy mode should not exist**, "because the current system rewards envy and pride, and should continue to do so unmolested." I'm sorry if that was paraphrased inaccurately, but that was my interpretation of your point. If I misjudged it then please clarify. The bolded is inaccurate, I don't want _your_ easy mode to exist. Also, I asked you to cite where I listed them as positive human virtues and you didn't. I've been repeatedly calling them _common and normal_; in fact there's only one place where I even _say_ they _can_ be positive, not that they are, much less virtues. So I'm to conclude here that you committed another strawman fallacy? > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Again, they seemed to struggle with lowering the cap from 50 to 10, I'm just gonna say, as a software engineer it's difficult to imagine that _after_ they successfully implement "raid mode" squad that it would _still_ be harder to create a 20 man squad than to create **entirely new versions of every raid**. The developers would actively have to _try_ to make it as difficult as possible to maintain the code to present the scenario you imagined, like hardcode 10 and 50 everywhere instead of using variables or something equally absurd. :lol: > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I don't budge on them because they are perfectly reasonable, and I did not propose them intending to settle in the middle > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I'm all ears. I would love to find a solution that **everyone** can agree with New flash, a _lot_ of people disagree with your demands. Are you still "interested" with "all ears" in finding a solution everyone can agree with? Seems like a resounding no. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > So no, I am NOT "making easy mode raids more unlikely and ruining it for those people who actually want to see fair easy mode raids." Few extremists believe they're doing the moderates wrong. You might not like it, but it's a common tactic for one side to inflate the other side's extremists to make everyone look bad. You did it yourself, and right now anti-easy mode proponents are inflating _you_, and it's very funny to see it unfold, since remember I don't have a proverbial horse in this race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > Easy envoy armor. For minimum effort. Whats next? Easy warbringer? Easy sublime armor skin? I don't know, do you want those? I don't see why not. Literally. > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > Easy envoy armor. For minimum effort. Whats next? Easy warbringer? Easy sublime armor skin? > > pvp with bots as the opponents A lot of people would certainly prefer it, but getting bots working well can be a lot of work. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > You want legendary armor for free (and yes, what you are proposing is basicaly free)? Nope. >Well i want to get all minerals l and logs on whole map mined by double clicking my mining tool because i dont enjoy farming it (and i cannot buy them on TP when you dont want to buy raids) That's ok, there are plenty of other ingame ways to acquire materials. They give you a ton of options if gathering isn't your thing. >Exactly. All I am saying is that if you decide to go for safer option comp you can make more mistakes but fight last longer. On the other hand if you pick risky comp then every mistake is more punishing. I like when players build their compositions based on their style and capabilities. If someone put some time to think about it that is efforet by me. But if you dont have to think about anything and failing mechanics doesnt matter then it is 0 effort. But the thing is, the idea is to make these *casual friendly,* something where you throw up an LFG and literally the first nine people that respond, whatever builds they have and gear they have on (assuming they will have something approaching a realistic level, of course), will be enough to get through the content. Having it be possible *if* you invest in building a very specific way, is just not an equivalent thing. The only way your idea would work is if they brought PvP gearing over to PvE, allowing you to swap out your stats as easily as swapping a medallion. >If you can clear by just auto atacking without doing mechanics then its like you are afk and that is what ohoni is asking for. Nope. > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Only if we are engaged in a one-on-one conversation > > Took about 2 minutes of a google search to dig this up from the easy mode thread with a poll: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > It almost feels like people want mechanics to be removed so raids can become mini core world bosses everyone can kill with 1-1-1-2.But with waaaaaaay better shinies. Almost. > > Yes, that is how a strawman argument works, when instead of addressing the point someone is making, you address "almost" what they are saying. > > Oh I'm sure _someone_ out there wants raid bosses to be mini-world bosses, but you didn't hold back accusing _him_ of a strawman. So why are you excusing yourself for the exact same offense? It's hypocrisy at its finest. :lol: Ah, no. See, the distinction is in the object of the sentence. When I criticize a strawman argument, it's because the object of their strawman (me) is not accurately described. Even if you want to pretend that the object of that claim had nothing to do with me, there also was not anyone else in the thread asking for any such thing, which, by definition, is a strawman. In the situation where you accuse me of using a strawman, I made no attempt to direct my comment at you specifically, I was just pointing out that the views you were attributing to me were no more objectionable than the views I'd heard expressed around here. Again, it may not apply to you personally, and I never claimed that it did, but it *does* apply to people participating in this discussion, it is not a strawman, it is an actual expressed viewpoint. >The bolded is inaccurate, I don't want your easy mode to exist. Ok, minor distinction, but it doesn't change the context of my response. >Also, I asked you to cite where I listed them as positive human virtues and you didn't. I've been repeatedly calling them common and normal; Ok, fine, then what do you believe your *point* is in listing them as "common and normal?" What *result* should that have? Does it mean that players should be rewarded for expressing those vices? Does it mean that changes should not be made if they conflict with those vices? I've never contradicted that they are normal human vices, I am just now confused as to what your point was in highlighting them. >I'm just gonna say, as a software engineer it's difficult to imagine that after they successfully implement "raid mode" squad that it would still be harder to create a 20 man squad than to create entirely new versions of every raid. Totally depends. Remember, the easy mode I'd like to see would have fairly minimal differences to the current ones. All the art would be the same, most of the coding, my proposal was that they just copy-paste all their existing work into a separate instance, and then just tweak a few numbers in the boss databases, and maybe swap out a few attack effects for other, existing effects (like swapping a "down on hit" for a "damage on hit" proc). Again, it's impossible to judge from the outside how convoluted their code might be, or how efficient their content creation tools might be, but I've used systems in the past where this would take maybe a half hour to change the details on a single boss encounter, if you knew vaguely what you were trying to do, and pending testing of it. >New flash, a lot of people disagree with your demands. Are you still "interested" with "all ears" in finding a solution everyone can agree with? Seems like a resounding no. I am trying to find a way for them to be at least reasonably happy *after* those key points are met. If they can't be happy if other people can earn envoy armor in a different way, then I'm sorry, there's no compromise to be found there. But if there is a way that they can be fine with there being reasonable alternative paths, then I want to help find that solution. >Few extremists believe they're doing the moderates wrong. You might not like it, but it's a common tactic for one side to inflate the other side's extremists to make everyone look bad. You did it yourself, and right now anti-easy mode proponents are inflating you, and it's very funny to see it unfold, since remember I don't have a proverbial horse in this race. Again, none of this is about you and me agreeing on a course of action and then that's what happened. Our choices don't matter. It's just about presenting our arguments for what we do and do not want to see happen, but ultimately ANet will decide what to do. If they think my position is "too extreme, " but they find merit in what someone else has said, then that's what will happen. You give me far too much credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Ah, no. See, the distinction is in the object of the sentence. When I criticize a strawman argument, it's because the object of their strawman (me) is not accurately described. Even if you want to pretend that the object of that claim had nothing to do with me, there also was not anyone else in the thread asking for any such thing, which, by definition, is a strawman. In the situation where you accuse me of using a strawman, I made no attempt to direct my comment at you specifically, I was just pointing out that the views you were attributing to me were no more objectionable than the views I'd heard expressed around here. Again, it may not apply to you personally, and I never claimed that it did, but it *does* apply to people participating in this discussion, it is not a strawman, it is an actual expressed viewpoint. Yeah that's a really fancy way to say "I have double standards." I'll keep it in mind for the future whenever I need to not admit to making mistakes :+1: > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Ok, fine, then what do you believe your *point* is in listing them as "common and normal?" Think about other not-so-virtuous qualities of human beings that have led to either rules or conventions of some sort. It shouldn't be too hard for you, unless you are purposefully being disingenuous. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Again, it's impossible to judge from the outside how convoluted their code might be Nah it's actually not so difficult if you have a basic knowledge of computer programming. It's very possible they could've had trouble getting squads down to 10 man (I still actually don't see any evidence of this, can you cite it?) because they hardcoded squad cap at 50 initially, because you know they didn't plan raids out originally. But if they've fixed that and made it possible to get 10, it's _unfathomable_ that they didn't write some solution that parameterized the squad cap in some way, so unfathomable that it'd have to be intentional malice or something to make the code harder to maintain. You've been thriving off this vagueness and ambiguity so far but you can't do it for much longer. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I am trying to find a way for them to be at least reasonably happy *after* those key points are met. If they can't be happy if other people can earn envoy armor in a different way, then I'm sorry, there's no compromise to be found there. But if there is a way that they can be fine with there being reasonable alternative paths, then I want to help find that solution. You just made a dramatic alteration to your statement when I pointed out a blatant contradiction with one of your previous statements. You basically just changed from "I want to find a solution that makes everyone happy" to "I want to find a solution that makes people who agree with me happy" > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > You give me far too much credit. I have trouble seeing how it's possible to give you less credit than I currently do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > You want legendary armor for free (and yes, what you are proposing is basicaly free)? > > Nope. > Well i will not find it in this disscusion but I am sure you said that you want group of random players with random builds to be able to kill boss on 1 or 2 tries. I guess we agree on the fact that random player will play less perfectly then raider. If they should be able to clear then there cannot be a mechanic that wipe the squad for 1 mistake. Also there cannot be dps check. And if there is none preasure (nothing tgat can cause a wipe) then it is just a dps golem and you can kill golem by auto atacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Ah, no. See, the distinction is in the object of the sentence. When I criticize a strawman argument, it's because the object of their strawman (me) is not accurately described. Even if you want to pretend that the object of that claim had nothing to do with me, there also was not anyone else in the thread asking for any such thing, which, by definition, is a strawman. In the situation where you accuse me of using a strawman, I made no attempt to direct my comment at you specifically, I was just pointing out that the views you were attributing to me were no more objectionable than the views I'd heard expressed around here. Again, it may not apply to you personally, and I never claimed that it did, but it *does* apply to people participating in this discussion, it is not a strawman, it is an actual expressed viewpoint. > > Yeah that's a really fancy way to say "I have double standards." I'll keep it in mind for the future whenever I need to not admit to making mistakes :+1: Hmm, ok. I mean, I can lead a horse to water. . . >Think about other not-so-virtuous qualities of human beings that have led to either rules or conventions of some sort. It shouldn't be too hard for you, unless you are purposefully being disingenuous. But again, just because it has happened, doesn't mean we can't *try* to do better. >Nah it's actually not so difficult if you have a basic knowledge of computer programming. It's very possible they could've had trouble getting squads down to 10 man (I still actually don't see any evidence of this, can you cite it?) I doubt I could actually *find* the point where this was happening, but they were having some glitchiness with "raid squads" back during the early raid betas. Hard to say for what reason, exactly. >You just made a dramatic alteration to your statement when I pointed out a blatant contradiction with one of your previous statements. You basically just changed from "I want to find a solution that makes everyone happy" to "I want to find a solution that makes people who agree with me happy" I *want* to find a solution that makes everyone happy. If that is possible, then that's what I want to happen. "No envoy armor outside of normal mode" would not make everyone happy, so, just as an example, that would not be a result that makes everyone happy. So, plan A, "make everyone happy." Plan B, "make as many people happy as possible, and if we have to choose between people being happy about *having* Envoy armor verses people being happy that other people *don't* have it, then we choose the former, *always.'* So, if we can figure out a way to make everyone happy, I'd like to hear it, but I am a realist, so I'll settle for the most good to the most people. > I have trouble seeing how it's possible to give you less credit than I currently do. Apparently you think I have final say in what ANet does and does not do, that I have the power to derail any system that I do not agree with. I appreciate the compliment, but I don't agree. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > You want legendary armor for free (and yes, what you are proposing is basicaly free)? > > > > Nope. > > > > Well i will not find it in this disscusion but I am sure you said that you want group of random players with random builds to be able to kill boss on 1 or 2 tries. I guess we agree on the fact that random player will play less perfectly then raider. If they should be able to clear then there cannot be a mechanic that wipe the squad for 1 mistake. Also there cannot be dps check. And if there is none preasure (nothing tgat can cause a wipe) then it is just a dps golem and you can kill golem by auto atacking. > Agreed. And that is still not "free" because it still requires *effort.* It requires less focus, certainly, but that does not make it "free," at least no more "free" than the current raids are. I mean, technically every reward in the game is "free" in that you don't have to spend money for it, but if you are using the term to mean "no effort expended," then it would not apply to any raid mode I advocate for, and I find the use of the term unnecessarily prejudiced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon. > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves. > > > > > > > > Pick one > > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want. > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window. Lol. Anet has literally said that selling raids is fine, yet you choose to call it cheating....and you think you deserve to be taken seriously in this discussion? I'm sorry blatant strawmans and those who make them don't deserve to be taken seriously. Let me know when you want to have a real discussion. But right now, you don't deserve to be called flexible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding. > > > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better? > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP. > > > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger. > > > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself: > > > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it. > > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid. > > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2. > > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle. > > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode. > > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes. > > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop. > > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players. > > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot. > > > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely. > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want. > > > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window. > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > > > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money. > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period. > > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor". The players don't define the rules, the creators do, and Anet has been clear. How in the world the word cheating became subjective is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > Easy envoy armor. For minimum effort. Whats next? Easy warbringer? Easy sublime armor skin? > > I don't know, do you want those? I don't see why not. > > Literally. > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > Easy envoy armor. For minimum effort. Whats next? Easy warbringer? Easy sublime armor skin? > > > > pvp with bots as the opponents > > A lot of people would certainly prefer it, but getting bots working well can be a lot of work. Well the problem with this is that it’s no longer pvp when you remove the player and it’s making it into an odd pve arena of sorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"thrag.9740" said: >Lol. Anet has literally said that selling raids is fine, yet you choose to call it cheating... ANet does not set my personal standards. I will not cheat to achieve my goals, even with their permission. > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > Easy envoy armor. For minimum effort. Whats next? Easy warbringer? Easy sublime armor skin? > > > > I don't know, do you want those? I don't see why not. > > > > Literally. > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > Easy envoy armor. For minimum effort. Whats next? Easy warbringer? Easy sublime armor skin? > > > > > > pvp with bots as the opponents > > > > A lot of people would certainly prefer it, but getting bots working well can be a lot of work. > > Well the problem with this is that it’s no longer pvp when you remove the player and it’s making it into an odd pve arena of sorts. True, but at the same time, there are plenty of games out there with game modes that are theoretically "PvP" in concept, yet incorporate bots for either soloing, as opponents for teamplay, or to round out both sides in a match. I remember how great bots were back in Unreal Tournament, when Internet matchmaking could be patchy. I'm not saying it would be exactly the same thing, but I'm sure there's an audience for being able to play the GW2 sPvP Conquest mode against reasonably well designed bots, but given the way the mode works it would be more of a technical challenge to make bots that were not completely worthless, rather than a "do people want this?" issue. I don't see it happening, but the *idea* isn't unheard of or particularly bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now