Raizel.8175 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > > > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > > > > > > > > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > > > > > > 1) option to get into raids > > > > > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > > > > > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > > > > > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > > > > > > > > > > > And what it shouldnt be: > > > > > > 1) content that is abused to farm > > > > > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would. But not the same as normal raids > > > > > > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win. > > > > Another raid-legendary-armor (though easy mode) would be nonsense. It would be better for the game to create a fractal/PoF-legendary armor just like raid-legendary-armor is a raid/HoT-armor. > > > > ...and tbh, the only problem about raids is accessibility. I mean, I'm raiding for approx. 6-7 weeks now, have 54 LI and killed everything from w1 till w4; the only thing that seperates me from the precursor-set are AmGems for the Crystalline Heart. Most encounters aren't that hard. Some requirements are just stupid. > > Its not 'nonsense' just as wvw and spvp legendary gear is there for long term goals, so should there be for easier raids. People don't want to play existing raids, they have a certain gameplay style that is really badly dated for many (repeat pattern/wipe/repeat pattern/wipe) The legendary gear doesn't even need to be animated like envoy, its just needs stat swap to feel valuable. The thing is that there already is a raid-amor that's also tied to HoT-OW-content though. So why not release a fractal-armor that's also tied to PoF-OW-content? Would be much more reasonable than a second raid-set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > > > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > > > > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > > > > > > > 1) option to get into raids > > > > > > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > > > > > > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > > > > > > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what it shouldnt be: > > > > > > > 1) content that is abused to farm > > > > > > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would. But not the same as normal raids > > > > > > > > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win. > > > > > > Another raid-legendary-armor (though easy mode) would be nonsense. It would be better for the game to create a fractal/PoF-legendary armor just like raid-legendary-armor is a raid/HoT-armor. > > > > > > ...and tbh, the only problem about raids is accessibility. I mean, I'm raiding for approx. 6-7 weeks now, have 54 LI and killed everything from w1 till w4; the only thing that seperates me from the precursor-set are AmGems for the Crystalline Heart. Most encounters aren't that hard. Some requirements are just stupid. > > > > Its not 'nonsense' just as wvw and spvp legendary gear is there for long term goals, so should there be for easier raids. People don't want to play existing raids, they have a certain gameplay style that is really badly dated for many (repeat pattern/wipe/repeat pattern/wipe) The legendary gear doesn't even need to be animated like envoy, its just needs stat swap to feel valuable. > > The thing is that there already is a raid-amor that's also tied to HoT-OW-content though. So why not release a fractal-armor that's also tied to PoF-OW-content? Would be much more reasonable than a second raid-set. people want easier mode 10+ man instances, if its made, a new legendary armor set is common sense. That's not to say fractals shouldn't have a different set again ofc, different discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > I domt see a middle ground here. It would be middle ground then you would propose something for the raiders what they didnt have which you didnt. Well, I don't think it's my place to propose things for raiders, I mean, how would I know what they would want? I *listen* to the raiders, and if they were asking for something reasonable then I would be open to making that happen, but I don't think I could do a good job of coming up with potential options off the top of my head. >You didnt want raids yet you want easy mode..... You know that you actualy can ignore them right? That's not really an option. They locked story content and Envoy armor behind them, they are a part of the game. If easy mode raids existed, and I could get everything I want out of raids through those, *then* I could ignore the existence of the normal mode raids, but not so long as they are blocking access to portions of the game. >And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. And that would be a step in the right direction, but it's still missing a path to envoy armor, which matters to me. >Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once This would be nice, but not something that personally matters much to me. I have a decent amount of Ascended weapons, more isn't really any particular draw. It'd basically amount to getting better off-weapons for some of my lesser used alts. Certainly no substitute for Envoy armor. > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > So how am I supposed to know you weren't just making this "trouble getting 10 man squads to work" thing up? > > I don't know, you could, I honestly don't care either way. Should I? > > Yes you should care about making unsubstantiated claims, but it's quite alright if you don't. We both know who it reflects poorly on, and now everyone knows that whenever you bring this "trouble to get 10 man squads working" line up, they can simply ask for evidence, which then you will refuse to provide. Ok. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > 1) option to get into raids > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp I agree on those points, at least. > And what it shouldnt be: > 1) content that is abused to farm > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards Why not? I mean, obviously there's some loaded language in that, but why shouldn't players farm easy mode if they enjoy it? Shy shouldn't it be like other content in the game that players can play repeatedly because they enjoy it? And why shouldn't players be able to get raid-specific rewards from it? Keep in mind that "lazy" wouldn't really be a factor since it would take more time and effort than hard mode, it would just be more enjoyable and accessible to players that don't enjoy the normal mode version or don't have the time flexibility to meaningfully contribute in a normal mode raid. >I am totaly for point 1 and 2 and i would be ok with point 3. I get that some players dont value same things as i do in this game. On the other hand I dont want to give kills for free. Generaly if player comes to any raid he should be trying to do his best. That is my goal and my idea what raids are about. I think that's a fine goal for the normal mode raids, I just don't think it needs to extend to all versions of the raids. That sort of tension isn't fun for most players. >Idealy there would be no need for easy/normal split but i just dont know how to make raids more casual-friendly without lovwring dificulty for those that raid now. And that's my primary point of compromise here, that I want to work for that split, for having an easy mode *while leaving normal mode alone,* rather than pushing for only having one mode and that one mode *being* easy mode. I want players who enjoy normal mode to get everything they want out of it, I just also want players who want easy mode to get everything they want too. > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win. More stuff is always nice, but I think there are good reasons for this to not be the goal. For one thing, a lot of work went into them making the Legendary armor, it took them over a year after raids came out to finish, and that they released the PvP and WvW ones without skins is telling that this is not something they take casually. It would be a separate department of the organization, but I'm pretty sure that building a new set of Legendary armor skins would take more total developer time than *any* easy mode raid proposal would. Second, normal mode raiders won't enjoy easy mode much, and I no more want to give them incentives to farm easy mode than I want easy mode players to have incentive to play normal. To each his own, let players play the mode they enjoy and be 100% rewarded for doing so, rather than having to play both if they want to get all the things. Third, skins are not fungible, there is no such thing as "equally as good" or "a fair substitute," the ones that you like are the ones that you like. I'm sure that if they released an "Easy mode raid Legendary skin," that there would be plenty of "easy mode raiders" who would still prefer the look of the Envoy set, and still want to get that, and would still be left in the cold because they couldn't get it without doing normal mode. Conversely, you'd have plenty of existing raiders that had worked hard to get their Envoy armor, and might prefer the look of these new skins, and feel that their time was a bit wasted on a set that wasn't as good. I just see it as a bit of a canard, a "solution" that doesn't really satisfy anyone and causes more harm than good. > @"Raizel.8175" said: > Another raid-legendary-armor (though easy mode) would be nonsense. It would be better for the game to create a fractal/PoF-legendary armor just like raid-legendary-armor is a raid/HoT-armor. I don't mind a Fractal set in principle, but it really wouldn't solve anything, since fundamentally Raids and Fractals are very similar, targeting very similar audiences. If there's going to be a second PvE armor set then it should be for a different audience. Adding a Fractal set now would be like if there were no WvW set, but you could get two different sets from both Ranked and Unranked PvP. > ...and tbh, the only problem about raids is accessibility. I mean, I'm raiding for approx. 6-7 weeks now, have 54 LI and killed everything from w1 till w4; the only thing that seperates me from the precursor-set are AmGems for the Crystalline Heart. Most encounters aren't that hard. Some requirements are just stupid. I mean that's the goal of having an "easy" mode, to increase the accessibility, to make it more casual so that you can just get in there and get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > > And that would be a step in the right direction, but it's still missing a path to envoy armor, which matters to me. > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > > > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > > > > > > > > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > > > > > > 1) option to get into raids > > > > > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > > > > > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > > > > > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > > > > > > > > > > > And what it shouldnt be: > > > > > > 1) content that is abused to farm > > > > > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would. But not the same as normal raids > > > > > > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win. > > > > Eventually the reasonable positions converge. > > As long as Ohoni doesn't obtain envoy armor, it's never reasonable. He'll probably complain about dev time for the second set too. You were right :D No matter what we say and what compromisis we make he just cannot get the idea behind unique reward. I wouldnt be against giving envoy armor to any player that do some raids but what you are proposing ohoni are not raids in my eyes because it goes against basic principles of raiding so then there cannot be raid armor locked behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Why not? I mean, obviously there's some loaded language in that, but why shouldn't players farm easy mode if they enjoy it? Shy shouldn't it be like other content in the game that players can play repeatedly because they enjoy it? And why shouldn't players be able to get raid-specific rewards from it? Keep in mind that "lazy" wouldn't really be a factor since it would take more time and effort than hard mode, it would just be more enjoyable and accessible to players that don't enjoy the normal mode version or don't have the time flexibility to meaningfully contribute in a normal mode raid. When you clear raids for more than the first time you only get bags of green gear. Raids aren't farmable right now, and it's obvious why they can't be. Bosses can drop ascended gear (salvagable for 60 magnetites), minis (exchangable for 40 magnetites) and ascended trinkets. If people can farm that... really, do I really need to explain why it's a bad idea? You can buy a Gorseval infusion for 1000 magnetites. A Gorseval infusion sells for about 125 gold. And with 1000 gaet crystals you can buy the Dhuum throne, which sells for about... last time I checked, 1k gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > Point 1) could be achieved with open world/fractal legendary armor, point 2) could be achieved with 20+ man version of raids with generic rewards. Both ideas have been floated around and I'm personally not just okay with but in favor of both (even though I view legendaries as something basically forever out of my reach) Agree o the first one. With the second i'm not as optimistic though. Getting 9 other people for a raid is already too problematic. And that's with raid rewards - decrease rewards significantly (and that's what its being talked about), and you will get _less_ players, not more. The number of players you need to get to do the content is a significant factor stopping many people from playing raids already. Introducing 20-man instances will not make the content more accesible, even if the difficulty per individual player would be lower. As far as i see it, it's not a good solution for point 2). > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Idealy there would be no need for easy/normal split but i just dont know how to make raids more casual-friendly without lovwring dificulty for those that raid now. Neither do I. Notice, by the way, that my idea of easy mode would likely be a bit harder (...maybe even more than a bit) than what Ohoni proposes. He should be probably treated as the most extreme position here. > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win. I'd likely support that as well (well, depending on the implementation and whether it'd be done in good faith, and not as the "shut them up" measure. I do consider the SPvP/WvW legendary implementation to be of that second kind, seeing as anet could not be bothered to make even the most base reskin for the legendary armor for that modes, and just used precursor version for it). Although, as someone already mentioned, if there was a second PvE legendary set (with a legendary skin), it would be better to place it outside raids. Probably outside fractals too, as they are in many ways too close to raids already. > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > i've said that since day 1, it makes perfect sense that raiders existing rewards should remain tied uniquely to normal raids Let's... not argue about that. I tend to disagree. I think placing envoy armor behind raids (and initially intending it to be the only legendary armor set) was a really, really bad decision on Anet's part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > I wouldnt be against giving envoy armor to any player that do some raids but what you are proposing ohoni are not raids in my eyes because it goes against basic principles of raiding so then there cannot be raid armor locked behind it. I just don't see why "they have to do raids" is such a red line to some people. Why do you believe that a player who *does not enjoy normal mode raids* should have to do raids anyway if they want to get Envoy armor? How does that benefit them? > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Why not? I mean, obviously there's some loaded language in that, but why shouldn't players farm easy mode if they enjoy it? Shy shouldn't it be like other content in the game that players can play repeatedly because they enjoy it? And why shouldn't players be able to get raid-specific rewards from it? Keep in mind that "lazy" wouldn't really be a factor since it would take more time and effort than hard mode, it would just be more enjoyable and accessible to players that don't enjoy the normal mode version or don't have the time flexibility to meaningfully contribute in a normal mode raid. > > When you clear raids for more than the first time you only get bags of green gear. Raids aren't farmable right now, and it's obvious why they can't be. Bosses can drop ascended gear (salvagable for 60 magnetites), minis (exchangable for 40 magnetites) and ascended trinkets. If people can farm that... really, do I really need to explain why it's a bad idea? Ok, so you just mean "you shouldn't be able to beat Easy VG dozens of times in a row for really great rewards." I can totally go along with that, sure. By "farming" I was more meaning "beating each boss in a row once per week." I definitely don't think you should be able to clear them infinitely for maximum rewards, anything particularly good should be on weekly lockouts, and even at best the quantity of rewards you'd get for an easy mode kill should be less than a hard mode one, for obvious reasons. If they do give the option to kill bosses more than once per week for any sort of reward, then it should definitely be fairly light stuff, nothing that they couldn't get from spending a similar amount of time farming open world content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > I wouldnt be against giving envoy armor to any player that do some raids but what you are proposing ohoni are not raids in my eyes because it goes against basic principles of raiding so then there cannot be raid armor locked behind it. > > I just don't see why "they have to do raids" is such a red line to some people. > > Why do you believe that a player who *does not enjoy normal mode raids* should have to do raids anyway if they want to get Envoy armor? How does that benefit them? > It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Idealy there would be no need for easy/normal split but i just dont know how to make raids more casual-friendly without lovwring dificulty for those that raid now. > Neither do I. > > Notice, by the way, that my idea of easy mode would likely be a bit harder (...maybe even more than a bit) than what Ohoni proposes. He should be probably treated as the most extreme position here. > I did notice and I am willing to disscuse posibilities with you. I am taking ohoni as an extremist from like page 2 :D . Do you think that it would better if there was one/two totaly diferent wings thatvwould be easy or uf they created easymodes to all raids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: >It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards. But how does it benefit players who do raid to have *other* players *not* get something? That's what I don't understand. It's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people outside *do not.* I just odn't see how that is a "benefit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > >It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards. > > But how does it benefit players who do raid to have *other* players *not* get something? That's what I don't understand. It's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people outside *do not.* I just odn't see how that is a "benefit." Since we're using real world analogies would it not be more appropriate to say that it's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people _**who don't pay**_ do not? I sure think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > >It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards. > > > > But how does it benefit players who do raid to have *other* players *not* get something? That's what I don't understand. It's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people outside *do not.* I just odn't see how that is a "benefit." > > Since we're using real world analogies would it not be more appropriate to say that it's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people _**who don't pay**_ do not? > > I sure think so. Ok, let's go with that. So. . . where's the perk there? Why should the people in the restaurant NOT want "people who don't pay" to also be fed? I've never heard of a restaurant that operates on that principle, whereas I *have* heard of several restaurants that explicitly work on the principle of "you pay for your meal, and it will also pay for the meal for one or more other people." Again, I think that in general, you just greatly underestimate your fellow human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > I wouldnt be against giving envoy armor to any player that do some raids but what you are proposing ohoni are not raids in my eyes because it goes against basic principles of raiding so then there cannot be raid armor locked behind it. > > > > I just don't see why "they have to do raids" is such a red line to some people. > > > > Why do you believe that a player who *does not enjoy normal mode raids* should have to do raids anyway if they want to get Envoy armor? How does that benefit them? > > > > It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards. > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > Idealy there would be no need for easy/normal split but i just dont know how to make raids more casual-friendly without lovwring dificulty for those that raid now. > > Neither do I. > > > > Notice, by the way, that my idea of easy mode would likely be a bit harder (...maybe even more than a bit) than what Ohoni proposes. He should be probably treated as the most extreme position here. > > > I did notice and I am willing to disscuse posibilities with you. I am taking ohoni as an extremist from like page 2 :D . > > Do you think that it would better if there was one/two totaly diferent wings thatvwould be easy or uf they created easymodes to all raids? I think just adding additional people to the raid squad would allow for an easy mode sort of speaks to occur, without messing around with boss health, enrage timers and mechanics. You could then increase the difficulty by removing people and adding more to lessen the difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > >It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards. > > > > > > But how does it benefit players who do raid to have *other* players *not* get something? That's what I don't understand. It's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people outside *do not.* I just odn't see how that is a "benefit." > > > > Since we're using real world analogies would it not be more appropriate to say that it's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people _**who don't pay**_ do not? > > > > I sure think so. > > Ok, let's go with that. So. . . where's the perk there? Why should the people in the restaurant NOT want "people who don't pay" to also be fed? I've never heard of a restaurant that operates on that principle, whereas I *have* heard of several restaurants that explicitly work on the principle of "you pay for your meal, and it will also pay for the meal for one or more other people." > > Again, I think that in general, you just greatly underestimate your fellow human being. > "Restaurants that don't make you pay" :lol: . Well that's all I really wanted out of you, your post can speak for itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > >It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards. > > > > > > > > But how does it benefit players who do raid to have *other* players *not* get something? That's what I don't understand. It's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people outside *do not.* I just odn't see how that is a "benefit." > > > > > > Since we're using real world analogies would it not be more appropriate to say that it's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people _**who don't pay**_ do not? > > > > > > I sure think so. > > > > Ok, let's go with that. So. . . where's the perk there? Why should the people in the restaurant NOT want "people who don't pay" to also be fed? I've never heard of a restaurant that operates on that principle, whereas I *have* heard of several restaurants that explicitly work on the principle of "you pay for your meal, and it will also pay for the meal for one or more other people." > > > > Again, I think that in general, you just greatly underestimate your fellow human being. > > > > "Restaurants that don't make you pay" :lol: . Well that's all I really wanted out of you, your post can speak for itself. Clearly you never heard of the “Dine and Dash”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it. > > > > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid. > > > > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2. > > > > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle. > > > > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode. > > > > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes. > > > > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop. > > > > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players. > > > > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money. > > > > > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period. > > > > > > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor". > > > > The players don't define the rules, the creators do, and Anet has been clear. How in the world the word cheating became subjective is beyond me. > > You have misunderstood the sentence. I'm not saying what is cheating and what's not. I'm saying that, for me, buying raids feels like cheating. It isn't, but in my moral system it feels like that. If I ever bought a kill I would feel like a cheater. Anet dictates the rules but no one can dictate how I feel about myself. > > Do you understand now? There are players in every mmo who choose to personally farm all materials they need, and literally never use the trading post because they dont believe in letting other players play the game for them. That is fine, it is their choice. But, if they come into the forums and wine for 40 pages that it is too hard to earn the rewards they want, and demand that everything is made easier to suit their unique play style, while calling the act of trading, 'cheating' that is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > >It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards. > > > > > > > > But how does it benefit players who do raid to have *other* players *not* get something? That's what I don't understand. It's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people outside *do not.* I just odn't see how that is a "benefit." > > > > > > Since we're using real world analogies would it not be more appropriate to say that it's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people _**who don't pay**_ do not? > > > > > > I sure think so. > > > > Ok, let's go with that. So. . . where's the perk there? Why should the people in the restaurant NOT want "people who don't pay" to also be fed? I've never heard of a restaurant that operates on that principle, whereas I *have* heard of several restaurants that explicitly work on the principle of "you pay for your meal, and it will also pay for the meal for one or more other people." > > > > Again, I think that in general, you just greatly underestimate your fellow human being. > > > > "Restaurants that don't make you pay" :lol: . Well that's all I really wanted out of you, your post can speak for itself. Yup, Google it, it's something of a trend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > >It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards. > > > > > > But how does it benefit players who do raid to have *other* players *not* get something? That's what I don't understand. It's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people outside *do not.* I just odn't see how that is a "benefit." > > > > Since we're using real world analogies would it not be more appropriate to say that it's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people _**who don't pay**_ do not? > > > > I sure think so. > > Ok, let's go with that. So. . . where's the perk there? Why should the people in the restaurant NOT want "people who don't pay" to also be fed? I've never heard of a restaurant that operates on that principle, whereas I *have* heard of several restaurants that explicitly work on the principle of "you pay for your meal, and it will also pay for the meal for one or more other people." > > Again, I think that in general, you just greatly underestimate your fellow human being. > Rofl. When I eat at a restauranr i dont want others that didnt pay to be fed. 1) if they get food too then servicec will be slower/less space in restaurant 2) if someone can get food for free i will not pay for it, why should i pay when others dont have to. We had komunism (comunism? Pls correct me, thx) in our country. After it fell there are still people that want it back. Sure it had some qualities like more money for retired people but rest is crazy. For those that dont know how it worked: -Everyone was paid the same as others with same education and time in this job. -you cannot own your own shop for example, everything belonged to state. - everyone that had no (official) job was a criminal On paper it might seem nice but this is how it looked like: When my father was at school he went to do a part time job in a factory. He was assembeling something (and payed for one assembeled) and proffesionals did 100 per hour (which was the limit). First day he managed 80 per hour and next day 130. After thet the workers came to him and said that he needs to stop because he makes them look bad. In reality they could have made 200 per hour but there was no reason to since they wouldnt get more money/promotion... Another story: my day needed a house so he started working as a person that heats buildings (put coal into big fireplace). He had assigned fireplace. But he only needed to come there once and not stay there for hours. So he made a deal (others normaly did that too) with artists (because it wasnt official job) that they would say they do this job and he would do it for them (illegal too - stealing jobs). That way my father was doing jobs thet were ment for 10 people and made 5 times more then leader of big factories with university degree. Since there everything was for same cost there was 1 butcher in the village. Official price might be 10 for chicken but he said he doesnt have any and hid it. Since you couldnt buy it elsewhere you had to give him money so je let you buy it. One of my favorite book series is sword of truth. Spoilers: In one part of the book main character is working in a state that works on similar principles as those above. When he starts money is taken from his salary to feed the ill so his salary is close to nothing. So then he announce that he is sick and cannot work and gets paid more then he did when he was working. There was a saying: Who doesnt cheat steals from his family The idea is nice but in reality it benefits those that cheat or those that dont work. This looks to me like something very similar as your restaurant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 i need help, i dont see the context between raiding and feeding the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Rofl. When I eat at a restauranr i dont want others that didnt pay to be fed. That's. . . disappointing. :anguished: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Btw few weeks/months ago there was a disscusion elitsits vs casuals where players from top raid guilds were talking about raids with open world farmer. I encourage you to listen to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 I am not saying that helping someone is bad. I am saying beeing forced to help is bad. I would help people but on my conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"thrag.9740" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it. > > > > > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid. > > > > > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2. > > > > > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle. > > > > > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode. > > > > > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes. > > > > > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop. > > > > > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players. > > > > > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money. > > > > > > > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period. > > > > > > > > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor". > > > > > > The players don't define the rules, the creators do, and Anet has been clear. How in the world the word cheating became subjective is beyond me. > > > > You have misunderstood the sentence. I'm not saying what is cheating and what's not. I'm saying that, for me, buying raids feels like cheating. It isn't, but in my moral system it feels like that. If I ever bought a kill I would feel like a cheater. Anet dictates the rules but no one can dictate how I feel about myself. > > > > Do you understand now? > > There are players in every mmo who choose to personally farm all materials they need, and literally never use the trading post because they dont believe in letting other players play the game for them. That is fine, it is their choice. But, if they come into the forums and wine for 40 pages that it is too hard to earn the rewards they want, and demand that everything is made easier to suit their unique play style, while calling the act of trading, 'cheating' that is ridiculous. Don't confuse me with Ohoni, I am a raider and I am against easy mode. Is that hard to understand that buying raids, FOR ME, FOR MYSELF, TALKING ONLY ABOUT MYSELF feels like cheating? I am not saying that it is, "officially" or whatever you want to call it. I am saying that me buying raids has no place in my moral system because I would feel like a cheater. I don't care if you buy raids, but I wouldn't do it. Really, is it that hard? This feels like a great post to include a meme in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > >It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards. > > > > > > > > But how does it benefit players who do raid to have *other* players *not* get something? That's what I don't understand. It's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people outside *do not.* I just odn't see how that is a "benefit." > > > > > > Since we're using real world analogies would it not be more appropriate to say that it's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people _**who don't pay**_ do not? > > > > > > I sure think so. > > > > Ok, let's go with that. So. . . where's the perk there? Why should the people in the restaurant NOT want "people who don't pay" to also be fed? I've never heard of a restaurant that operates on that principle, whereas I *have* heard of several restaurants that explicitly work on the principle of "you pay for your meal, and it will also pay for the meal for one or more other people." > > > > Again, I think that in general, you just greatly underestimate your fellow human being. > > > > Rofl. When I eat at a restauranr i dont want others that didnt pay to be fed. > 1) if they get food too then servicec will be slower/less space in restaurant > 2) if someone can get food for free i will not pay for it, why should i pay when others dont have to. > > We had komunism (comunism? Pls correct me, thx) in our country. After it fell there are still people that want it back. Sure it had some qualities like more money for retired people but rest is crazy. > For those that dont know how it worked: > -Everyone was paid the same as others with same education and time in this job. > -you cannot own your own shop for example, everything belonged to state. > - everyone that had no (official) job was a criminal > > On paper it might seem nice but this is how it looked like: > > When my father was at school he went to do a part time job in a factory. He was assembeling something (and payed for one assembeled) and proffesionals did 100 per hour (which was the limit). First day he managed 80 per hour and next day 130. After thet the workers came to him and said that he needs to stop because he makes them look bad. In reality they could have made 200 per hour but there was no reason to since they wouldnt get more money/promotion... > > Another story: my day needed a house so he started working as a person that heats buildings (put coal into big fireplace). He had assigned fireplace. But he only needed to come there once and not stay there for hours. So he made a deal (others normaly did that too) with artists (because it wasnt official job) that they would say they do this job and he would do it for them (illegal too - stealing jobs). That way my father was doing jobs thet were ment for 10 people and made 5 times more then leader of big factories with university degree. > > Since there everything was for same cost there was 1 butcher in the village. Official price might be 10 for chicken but he said he doesnt have any and hid it. Since you couldnt buy it elsewhere you had to give him money so je let you buy it. > > One of my favorite book series is sword of truth. Spoilers: In one part of the book main character is working in a state that works on similar principles as those above. When he starts money is taken from his salary to feed the ill so his salary is close to nothing. So then he announce that he is sick and cannot work and gets paid more then he did when he was working. > > There was a saying: Who doesnt cheat steals from his family > > The idea is nice but in reality it benefits those that cheat or those that dont work. > > This looks to me like something very similar as your restaurant. We'll the biggest downfall of communism has always been the human condition. Glad their are other people who enjoy the sword of truth Books. Altough they are written with a capatalist mindset. A book where communism is described in a working societie would be children of mother earth by Thea Beckman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Is there a point to this thread anymore? We have had the "You are sinning!" argument, the "Why shouldnt I be entitled to free shinies?" argument, the "Well, maybe anet could introduce bots in pvp for people to get pvp skins and rewards", the "trading is cheating! You are a cheater!" argument, now it is "not paying in restaurants is a thing, too!". I understand that in today's society, people feel ( "feeling" in a certain way is by no means an argument) that they inherently deserve good stuff they havent put effort/put the bare minimum effort into earning. Raiders (or people in any game mode who work towards a specific, harder than your average world boss difficulty goal) are not threats. Some people see them as such, tho, in order to justify their blatantly weak arguments. "I want the same rewards as you, but waaaay easier! Just time-gate em more!" Another pve leggy armor set (which wont be gated behind raids) should be made available. The skin should be a rework of the illustrious skin ( in comparison to the wvw and pvp skins, which are reskins). Equal, doesnt mean same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > >It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards. > > > > > > > > > > But how does it benefit players who do raid to have *other* players *not* get something? That's what I don't understand. It's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people outside *do not.* I just odn't see how that is a "benefit." > > > > > > > > Since we're using real world analogies would it not be more appropriate to say that it's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people _**who don't pay**_ do not? > > > > > > > > I sure think so. > > > > > > Ok, let's go with that. So. . . where's the perk there? Why should the people in the restaurant NOT want "people who don't pay" to also be fed? I've never heard of a restaurant that operates on that principle, whereas I *have* heard of several restaurants that explicitly work on the principle of "you pay for your meal, and it will also pay for the meal for one or more other people." > > > > > > Again, I think that in general, you just greatly underestimate your fellow human being. > > > > > > > Rofl. When I eat at a restauranr i dont want others that didnt pay to be fed. > > 1) if they get food too then servicec will be slower/less space in restaurant > > 2) if someone can get food for free i will not pay for it, why should i pay when others dont have to. > > > > We had komunism (comunism? Pls correct me, thx) in our country. After it fell there are still people that want it back. Sure it had some qualities like more money for retired people but rest is crazy. > > For those that dont know how it worked: > > -Everyone was paid the same as others with same education and time in this job. > > -you cannot own your own shop for example, everything belonged to state. > > - everyone that had no (official) job was a criminal > > > > On paper it might seem nice but this is how it looked like: > > > > When my father was at school he went to do a part time job in a factory. He was assembeling something (and payed for one assembeled) and proffesionals did 100 per hour (which was the limit). First day he managed 80 per hour and next day 130. After thet the workers came to him and said that he needs to stop because he makes them look bad. In reality they could have made 200 per hour but there was no reason to since they wouldnt get more money/promotion... > > > > Another story: my day needed a house so he started working as a person that heats buildings (put coal into big fireplace). He had assigned fireplace. But he only needed to come there once and not stay there for hours. So he made a deal (others normaly did that too) with artists (because it wasnt official job) that they would say they do this job and he would do it for them (illegal too - stealing jobs). That way my father was doing jobs thet were ment for 10 people and made 5 times more then leader of big factories with university degree. > > > > Since there everything was for same cost there was 1 butcher in the village. Official price might be 10 for chicken but he said he doesnt have any and hid it. Since you couldnt buy it elsewhere you had to give him money so je let you buy it. > > > > One of my favorite book series is sword of truth. Spoilers: In one part of the book main character is working in a state that works on similar principles as those above. When he starts money is taken from his salary to feed the ill so his salary is close to nothing. So then he announce that he is sick and cannot work and gets paid more then he did when he was working. > > > > There was a saying: Who doesnt cheat steals from his family > > > > The idea is nice but in reality it benefits those that cheat or those that dont work. > > > > This looks to me like something very similar as your restaurant. > > We'll the biggest downfall of communism has always been the human condition. > > Glad their are other people who enjoy the sword of truth Books. Altough they are written with a capatalist mindset. > A book where communism is described in a working societie would be children of mother earth by Thea Beckman The biggest downfall of communism is the same as in every other utopia - it ignores the realities. It creates an unrealistic premise about human behaviour and it theorizes about a society built on this premise. It can never work. Personally, I'm not a big fan of this particular book series - it became way too repetitive for me - but the part about communism was good. It's what happens. Give the same rewards regardless of the effort, and you literally destroy the drive in anyone to make an effort. It's not a flaw in the human factor, it's a flaw in the system. Because it was not built for humans. That's why Ohoni can't get what he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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