thrag.9740 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The players don't define the rules, the creators do, and Anet has been clear. How in the world the word cheating became subjective is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have misunderstood the sentence. I'm not saying what is cheating and what's not. I'm saying that, for me, buying raids feels like cheating. It isn't, but in my moral system it feels like that. If I ever bought a kill I would feel like a cheater. Anet dictates the rules but no one can dictate how I feel about myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you understand now? > > > > > > > > > > > > There are players in every mmo who choose to personally farm all materials they need, and literally never use the trading post because they dont believe in letting other players play the game for them. That is fine, it is their choice. But, if they come into the forums and wine for 40 pages that it is too hard to earn the rewards they want, and demand that everything is made easier to suit their unique play style, while calling the act of trading, 'cheating' that is ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > Don't confuse me with Ohoni, I am a raider and I am against easy mode. Is that hard to understand that buying raids, FOR ME, FOR MYSELF, TALKING ONLY ABOUT MYSELF feels like cheating? I am not saying that it is, "officially" or whatever you want to call it. I am saying that me buying raids has no place in my moral system because I would feel like a cheater. I don't care if you buy raids, but I wouldn't do it. > > > > > > > > > > Really, is it that hard? This feels like a great post to include a meme in. > > > > > > > > Oh I totally did confuse you with Ohoni, sorry. > > > > > > > > I still think calling it cheating is stupid. Cheating has a well defined definition. Breaking the rules of the game. Your making up your own rules, which is fine, but I think your warping the definition of cheating to be whatever you want it to be. I think there is probably a better word for going against your own moral code.... > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-1-ab&ei=G178WtikOcTr5gKG1peIDg&q=definition+unethical&oq=definition+unethical&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l2j0i22i30k1l8.32130.33086.0.33254.9.6.0.3.3.0.78.400.6.6.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.424...0i22i10i30k1.0.EE0Nmm1saGQ > > > > > > > Ohhhhhh come on let's not start a discussion about semantics. > > > > > > But have you even studied philosophy at school? Don't you know the difference between morality and ethics? > > > > > > If after explaining 2 times you still don't get it, I'm out of this conversation. > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, fine, lets keep calling it cheating to make you happy. > > > > Let me make sure I understand. Making a boss trivial by complaining on the forums about how hard it is until they make an easy mode, is not cheating. But paying 9 players to kill the boss for you is cheating..... > > > > Why? I would argue you probably feel that way because the first option involves Anet telling you that easy mode is worthy of raid rewards. But Anet already told you that buying raids is ok too. > > For me both buying raids and wanting easier dificulty is cheating and i would personaly never done any of those. But technicaly neither of those is real cheating since both of them are not against any rules Dude seriously....scroll up and read. I'm literally the one who pointed out calling it cheating is stupid for the same reason you pointed out. I pointed out that more appropriate word would be unethical, which conveys the subjectivity they are trying to convey. But when I did so I was told "lets not start a discussion about semantics", so I used the word cheating to make them happy. 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Cerioth.7062 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 As if acquiring Legendary armor took hundreds of hours in normal mode... it does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambros Augustus.6594 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Why is raids so unfairly scaled. I tried pugging it as I was sick of farming istan for gold. I just wanted to pew pew something i didnt before with theif. Then some well meaning person tried to help me by showing me cairn mechanics but the damage kept one shotting my thief. I kept dying and the respawn wasnt even next to the platform. After several deaths ofc I was outraged. This type of content is terrible terrible stuff and shouldnt be in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Lambros Augustus.6594" said: > Why is raids so unfairly scaled. I tried pugging it as I was sick of farming istan for gold. I just wanted to pew pew something i didnt before with theif. Then some well meaning person tried to help me by showing me cairn mechanics but the damage kept one shotting my thief. I kept dying and the respawn wasnt even next to the platform. After several deaths ofc I was outraged. This type of content is terrible terrible stuff and shouldnt be in this game. Cairn literally can't one-shot you and the mechanics are fairly simple. No offense intended, but sometimes, the error sits in front of the PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Lambros Augustus.6594" said: > Why is raids so unfairly scaled. I tried pugging it as I was sick of farming istan for gold. I just wanted to pew pew something i didnt before with theif. Then some well meaning person tried to help me by showing me cairn mechanics but the damage kept one shotting my thief. I kept dying and the respawn wasnt even next to the platform. After several deaths ofc I was outraged. This type of content is terrible terrible stuff and shouldnt be in this game. Maybe because raids aren't designed to be beatable just pewpewing when you get bored of farming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerioth.7062 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Lambros Augustus.6594" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Lambros Augustus.6594" said: > > > Why is raids so unfairly scaled. I tried pugging it as I was sick of farming istan for gold. I just wanted to pew pew something i didnt before with theif. Then some well meaning person tried to help me by showing me cairn mechanics but the damage kept one shotting my thief. I kept dying and the respawn wasnt even next to the platform. After several deaths ofc I was outraged. This type of content is terrible terrible stuff and shouldnt be in this game. > > > > Cairn literally can't one-shot you and the mechanics are fairly simple. > > > > No offense intended, but sometimes, the error sits in front of the PC. > > You are a real piece of kitten arent you. He has a point. A thief can solo Cairn if they know what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Two wrongs don't make a right. Neither do three. > You are the only one speaking here who thinks Exclusive Rewards is a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > Cairn literally can't one-shot you and the mechanics are fairly simple. Well, it _can_ if you are in the middle of his hitbox when he's doing his circular sweep attack. Or if his attack pushes you out of platform. > @"Sykper.6583" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Two wrongs don't make a right. Neither do three. > > > > You are the only one speaking here who thinks Exclusive Rewards is a bad thing. I wouldn't be so sure about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > You are the only one speaking here who thinks Exclusive Rewards is a bad thing. > I wouldn't be so sure about it. > So you would want every reward in the game offered anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 It's really simple. You can make the argument that there shouldn't be exclusive rewards in certain segments of content, and start trying to crusade towards making that ideal a reality. Or you have to accept that various content in this game, and going forward, will have exclusive rewards tied to them with any kind of specific criteria to earn them, however large or small the effort is. If you start to argue "Oh **only some content should have exclusive rewards, but not this one...**" aka Raids, you aren't arguing in good faith in an attempt to help everyone earn that reward. You are being greedy and selfish, period, because the onus is on you demanding that the content with the criteria specified just GIVE you the exclusive rewards in another area. As I have said before, some of you have vocalized attempting to make an easier raid experience and understand that taking Exclusive Rewards out of content hurts it, and thus simply offered suggestions such as stat-swappable alternative armor or some other raw currency. That's a very fair compromise and something we can look at in terms of ideas for Arenanet to provide a more accessible raid experience. I will **never** blindly accept a greedy solution though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Sykper.6583" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > You are the only one speaking here who thinks Exclusive Rewards is a bad thing. > > I wouldn't be so sure about it. > > > > So you would want every reward in the game offered anywhere? Anywhere? No. But i'd want them to be either put only shallowly behind a content, behind a content that is easily accessible, or have at least one alternative (that _isn't_ "buy it off another player somehow"). And that last point i consider to be a good idea in any case, especially if we're talking about different main gamemodes. > @"Sykper.6583" said: > I will **never** blindly accept a greedy solution though. "We want it for us, and for us alone" is _also_ a greedy solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > So you would want every reward in the game offered anywhere? > > Anywhere? No. But i'd want them to be either put only shallowly behind a content, or have at least one alternative (that _isn't_ "buy it off another player somehow"). > To clarify, this referring to 'Skins' or just 'Quality of equipment'? We should clarify this now, I'm OK with the 'quality' of equipment made elsewhere, but skins are not on the table. > > @"Sykper.6583" said: > > I will **never** blindly accept a greedy solution though. > "We want it for us, and for us alone" is _also_ a greedy solution. It's not when it was the intended reward for a particular content. The content provides the player its reward for playing it. When you don't play it and start demanding the reward, you are the one being selfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayra Lightbringer.2874 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > "We want it for us, and for us alone" is _also_ a greedy solution. Well we Raiders do not want it alone for us. We want it to be accessible for everyone who is willing to put the work in. There are dozens of large teaching communities and hundreds of small-medium sized guilds that take beginners along. When I started raiding last year after the ML nerf, it took me about 4 weeks to start fullclearing on a weekly basis, just with pugging. It is not hard to kill a raid boss, but you have to put in some effort. If you are not willing to do that you do not deserve the rewards associated with raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Sykper.6583" said: > It's not when it was the intended reward for a particular content. The content provides the player its reward for playing it. Intentions can change, and assigning rewards to content is completely arbitrary. > When you don't play it and start demanding the reward, you are the one being selfish. And when you insist that a certain reward can never be available through other content, that isn't? > @"Ayra Lightbringer.2874" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > "We want it for us, and for us alone" is _also_ a greedy solution. > > Well we Raiders do not want it alone for us. We want it to be accessible for everyone who is willing to put the work in. Yes, and the only people you consider to have "put the work in" are raiders. So, basically, you do want it for raiders and raiders alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Sykper.6583" said: > > It's not when it was the intended reward for a particular content. The content provides the player its reward for playing it. > Intentions can change, and assigning rewards to content is completely arbitrary. Seeing as exclusive rewards have been in the game since...literally the beginning I'm taking the bet that you are mistaken. > > > When you don't play it and start demanding the reward, you are the one being selfish. > And when you insist that a certain reward can never be available through other content, that isn't? > Given that I'm not the one demanding the reward made available elsewhere? Nope, I'm being completely fair. The reward is fair for the content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambros Augustus.6594 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 Fun fact about rewards, armor and weapons were purely from crafting before fractals pvp and raids started giving them out like candy. Dont see why i have to miss out on story rewards and other content because the terrible terrible scaling exists in "raids". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambros Augustus.6594 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > He has a point. A thief can solo Cairn if they know what they are doing. Your definition of know what you are doing vastly differs from mine. For me there is 10 buttons and WASD i look at traits occasionally but I dont spend too much time nor do I like visiting meta sites to simply copy. And watching even extremely well made you-tube videos is offputting when there is simply far too much going on in terms of mechanics that shouldnt be there or if they are, should only hit for 1/10000 of the damage. Basically it should be fun but its not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > Asking for a Legendary Armor set from open world, is one thing. Asking for the same skin people have put hundreds of hours of effort to acquire, is selfish. > > > > Why, when it would take hundreds of hours of effort to acquire it for the easy mode too? > > > > and no, casual players asking for new content that they enjoy is not "casual elitism." "Elitism" doesn't mean "things I don't like." > > > > > > You know, I hope, that fractal 10 boss takes 2mins to kill, and youre saying that easy mode will require hundreds of hours? Again, my hope for easy mode is that it will be balanced around being "more likely to survive" rather than "faster to kill." Keep the boss HP the same, just reduce his potential to deal catastrophic damage. A meta team might be able to clear an easy boss a bit faster than a normal boss, but it shouldn't be faster by a ton, and a"easy-ready" team of non-meta builds and playstyles should take quite a bit longer per kill than any meta team. Add on to that that the expectation is that easy mode bosses would provide about 1/3 the progression per kill (and with the same weekly lockouts as normal mode), and it should be impossible for an easy mode player to acquire *anything* in even *double* the time it would take a normal mode player, much less "less time." > @"Sykper.6583" said: > It's really simple. You can make the argument that there shouldn't be exclusive rewards in certain segments of content, and start trying to crusade towards making that ideal a reality. Or you have to accept that various content in this game, and going forward, will have exclusive rewards tied to them with any kind of specific criteria to earn them, however large or small the effort is. I've always been for the former. My position is, I agree that unique rewards are good to get people to *try* new content, but that I reject them as a *long term goal,* because I think that anything that you need to chase after for weeks or months, chances are a lot of people will get bored or annoyed at that specific content first, making it a punishing grind. So I believe in unique rewards for content, but *only* if they are *shallowly buried.* They need to be something that players of any skill level can acquire after a couple hours or so of earnestly attempting that content. They shouldn't be required to "git gud" and become really great at that mode of play, they shouldn't have to spend dozens of hours, all that should be required is that they show up and try, and then they get that unique item. Then, if they enjoy that content, they can keep doing it as long as they like, and work towards other rewards. If they don't enjoy that content, they can leave and do something they enjoy more. Obviously I am NOT saying that full Envoy armor should only take a couple hours to earn, the "unique" items should not be the ultimate goals in the game, I'm saying that the things that *do* take a long time and a lot of effort to earn, like Envoy armor, should be available in multiple places, allowing players multiple paths towards unlocking them that they can mix and match as they wish. Players should not be locked into specific content just to complete a reward they want. An example of this would be, if they don't add easy mode raids, let people earn Envoy armor the way that they do, if that's what they want, but don't make it the *only* path to get each necessary ingredient. Instead, make it so that the ONLY thing that they can only get from raids, would be something that would cost like 50 Magnetite or so, no clears required. That way, you would have to raid *a little,* just to get that much, but you wouldn't have to be any good at it. From that point, if you weren't having any fun with it, you could leave, and all the other stuff you'd need to unlock the full armor, you could get by spending hundreds of hours doing other activities elsewhere in the game. That's my philosophy on the matter, at least. >If you start to argue "Oh only some content should have exclusive rewards, but not this one..." aka Raids, you aren't arguing in good faith in an attempt to help everyone earn that reward. You are being greedy and selfish, period, because the onus is on you demanding that the content with the criteria specified just GIVE you the exclusive rewards in another area. Agreed. I haven't actually seen anyone that carries that philosophy, but I would tell him that if I did. > @"Ayra Lightbringer.2874" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > "We want it for us, and for us alone" is _also_ a greedy solution. > > Well we Raiders do not want it alone for us. We want it to be accessible for everyone who is willing to put the work in. Semantics. "Don't touch the shinies." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > Asking for a Legendary Armor set from open world, is one thing. Asking for the same skin people have put hundreds of hours of effort to acquire, is selfish. > > > > > > Why, when it would take hundreds of hours of effort to acquire it for the easy mode too? > > > > > > and no, casual players asking for new content that they enjoy is not "casual elitism." "Elitism" doesn't mean "things I don't like." > > > > > > > > > > You know, I hope, that fractal 10 boss takes 2mins to kill, and youre saying that easy mode will require hundreds of hours? > > Again, my hope for easy mode is that it will be balanced around being "more likely to survive" rather than "faster to kill." Keep the boss HP the same, just reduce his potential to deal catastrophic damage. A meta team might be able to clear an easy boss a bit faster than a normal boss, but it shouldn't be faster by a ton, and a"easy-ready" team of non-meta builds and playstyles should take quite a bit longer per kill than any meta team. > You said "fractal 10 difficulty" yourself. Why you contradict yourself, is beyond me. Also, VG is killable within 7 mins with its current hp. Now, in your "way of thinking", it will take 15-20, its difficulty will be non existent, (its gonna be a Great Jungle Wurm that moves around a bit, essentially), and that will require, somehow... Hundreds of hours? For real? All that because you want shinies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: >You said "fractal 10 difficulty" yourself. Why you contradict yourself, is beyond me. And that is consistent with what I just said. I was talking in a general sense, "this would be as likely to turn out successfully as people tackling a Fractal 10-ish encounter," but there are all sorts of ways to arrive at that result. No reason to assume it would involve reducing the enemy's HP. > Also, VG is killable within 7 mins with its current hp. Now, in your "way of thinking", it will take 15-20, its difficulty will be non existent, (its gonna be a Great Jungle Wurm that moves around a bit, essentially), If a specific team can kill VG in 7 minutes, then that same team should be able to beat Easy VG in about 7 minutes as well, but hopefully not much less than that. They would just make about 1/3 as much fancy loot, so why would they bother? Since most "easy mode" quality teams would not be meta teams, would not be capable of beating normal mode VG in anywhere near that pace, they would take longer to complete it, maybe 2-3 times as long. >and that will require, somehow... Hundreds of hours? For real? Yes. Since it would take roughly three times as many completions, with roughly equal or more time spent per completion, it would end up taking probably 3-4 times as many hours of play as the current options. It would just be something that players could complete without the hassles of the existing raids. Again, there should be *no* reason for *you* to participate, so don't worry about it. You can keep playing the existing version and miss out on nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > >You said "fractal 10 difficulty" yourself. Why you contradict yourself, is beyond me. > > And that is consistent with what I just said. I was talking in a general sense, "this would be as likely to turn out successfully as people tackling a Fractal 10-ish encounter," but there are all sorts of ways to arrive at that result. No reason to assume it would involve reducing the enemy's HP. > Have you ever done fract 10 with a half competent group? > > Also, VG is killable within 7 mins with its current hp. Now, in your "way of thinking", it will take 15-20, its difficulty will be non existent, (its gonna be a Great Jungle Wurm that moves around a bit, essentially), > > If a specific team can kill VG in 7 minutes, then that same team should be able to beat Easy VG in about 7 minutes as well, but hopefully not much less than that. They would just make about 1/3 as much fancy loot, so why would they bother? Since most "easy mode" quality teams would not be meta teams, would not be capable of beating normal mode VG in anywhere near that pace, they would take longer to complete it, maybe 2-3 times as long. > If a specific team can kill VG in 7 mins, easy mode VG will be killable in way less time. The group will just power through mechanics (effectively ignoring mechanics. Some do that already, with no Gorse updraft etc). That adds nothing. > >and that will require, somehow... Hundreds of hours? For real? > > Yes. Since it would take roughly three times as many completions, with roughly equal or more time spent per completion, it would end up taking probably 3-4 times as many hours of play as the current options. It would just be something that players could complete without the hassles of the existing raids. > > Again, there should be *no* reason for *you* to participate, so don't worry about it. You can keep playing the existing version and miss out on nothing. People have trained for their kills. It may seem surprising to you, but simply breezing through raid bosses isnt exactly "hundreds of hours". I dont raid. If i wanted envoy armor, I would most certainly raid. I do wvw a lot. Warnringer, sublime armor etc are exclusive there, as well. They are by no means "shallowly buried" (try reaching 2k rank). . But I can understand that some people want what others worked for, without the effort. It happens in life, it will happen in gw2, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 > @"Sykper.6583" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Sykper.6583" said: > > > It's not when it was the intended reward for a particular content. The content provides the player its reward for playing it. > > Intentions can change, and assigning rewards to content is completely arbitrary. > > Seeing as exclusive rewards have been in the game since...literally the beginning I'm taking the bet that you are mistaken. In which part of my statement? The one where is said that intentions can change? That one already happened many times in this game already, for multitude of reasons. That includes exclusivity... Anet has been known to change their mind on that one as well (and not only with dungeon skins). That the assigning rewards to content is arbitrary? It's Anet that decides which rewards go where, and which content gets more/less. It's also Anet that decides which rewards are exclusive, which are less exclusive, and which are generic. They could decide tomorrow to switch those around, and it would be equally right/wrong as it is now. Basically, what is intended for what content, and what is exclusive is a completely arbitrary decision. Are you seriously even trying to argue against that one? > @"Sykper.6583" said: > > > > > > When you don't play it and start demanding the reward, you are the one being selfish. > > And when you insist that a certain reward can never be available through other content, that isn't? > > > > Given that I'm not the one demanding the reward made available elsewhere? Nope, I'm being completely fair. The reward is fair for the content. The reward being fair is only you subjective assesment. It's been already established that it is assigned to content on arbitrary basis that _can_ change. And you are demanding that those rewards _won't_ be made available elsewhere, which, as i see it, is a far more selfish approach. You are the one not wanting to share even when it would cost you nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > >You said "fractal 10 difficulty" yourself. Why you contradict yourself, is beyond me. > > > > And that is consistent with what I just said. I was talking in a general sense, "this would be as likely to turn out successfully as people tackling a Fractal 10-ish encounter," but there are all sorts of ways to arrive at that result. No reason to assume it would involve reducing the enemy's HP. > > > Have you ever done fract 10 with a half competent group? > > > Also, VG is killable within 7 mins with its current hp. Now, in your "way of thinking", it will take 15-20, its difficulty will be non existent, (its gonna be a Great Jungle Wurm that moves around a bit, essentially), > > > > If a specific team can kill VG in 7 minutes, then that same team should be able to beat Easy VG in about 7 minutes as well, but hopefully not much less than that. They would just make about 1/3 as much fancy loot, so why would they bother? Since most "easy mode" quality teams would not be meta teams, would not be capable of beating normal mode VG in anywhere near that pace, they would take longer to complete it, maybe 2-3 times as long. > > > If a specific team can kill VG in 7 mins, easy mode VG will be killable in way less time. The group will just power through mechanics (effectively ignoring mechanics. Some do that already, with no Gorse updraft etc). That adds nothing. > > >and that will require, somehow... Hundreds of hours? For real? > > > > Yes. Since it would take roughly three times as many completions, with roughly equal or more time spent per completion, it would end up taking probably 3-4 times as many hours of play as the current options. It would just be something that players could complete without the hassles of the existing raids. > > > > Again, there should be *no* reason for *you* to participate, so don't worry about it. You can keep playing the existing version and miss out on nothing. > > People have trained for their kills. It may seem surprising to you, but simply breezing through raid bosses isnt exactly "hundreds of hours". > I dont raid. If i wanted envoy armor, I would most certainly raid. I do wvw a lot. Warnringer, sublime armor etc are exclusive there, as well. They are by no means "shallowly buried" (try reaching 2k rank). . But I can understand that some people want what others worked for, without the effort. It happens in life, it will happen in gw2, as well. > > You'll be told that everybody can reach 2k rank just by playing casually. :# A good squad kills VG in much less than 7minutes right now. I have several logs of Vale Guardian in my GW2Raidar account, and they took: 4:52, 4:21, 4:49, 4:47, 4:36, 5:56 minutes to complete. My static is always close to those numbers, sometimes even less. An average pug will get the kill in 6 minutes more or less, but there are already groups killing in much less than that without being close to any hardcore guild. So, and easy mode VG will be killed in 2-3 minutes. But there are bosses more ridiculous than that. My Cairn logs: 2:31, 2:52, 3:56, 4:16, 5:06, 4:15, 5:08 minutes. Cairn would be killable in... 1 minute? XD Gorseval: 3:42, 3:34, 3:51, 3:49, 4:01, 4:24, 3:38, 3:41 And my Mursaat Overseer logs are between 2 and 2'5 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > The reward being fair is only you subjective assesment. It's been already established that it is assigned to content on arbitrary basis that _can_ change. And you are demanding that those rewards _won't_ be made available elsewhere, which, as i see it, is a far more selfish approach. You are the one not wanting to share even when it would cost you nothing. > I'll wager good money that Episode 3 will contain many new unique/exclusive rewards not available anywhere else. Like all Living World releases so that thing isn't going to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > >You said "fractal 10 difficulty" yourself. Why you contradict yourself, is beyond me. > > > > And that is consistent with what I just said. I was talking in a general sense, "this would be as likely to turn out successfully as people tackling a Fractal 10-ish encounter," but there are all sorts of ways to arrive at that result. No reason to assume it would involve reducing the enemy's HP. > > > Have you ever done fract 10 with a half competent group? /sigh. I have a feeling that we'll end up running around and around on this one for no practical reason whatsoever. I've played Fractal 10. I have not played, say, Fractal 50, because I stopped at the point that Agony became a concern. I cannot say at what point Fractals become "pretty hard." It's quite possible I would be fine with a difficulty level tuned to "more than Fractal 10," but my point is, it should not be tuned to the level of those higher tier fractals. I hope I've been pretty clear as to what I am expecting, an encounter that takes about as long to complete as the current one, likely longer for the average group that will attempt it, but one where the odds of total failure are *much, much lower* for a poorly geared and assembled team. That's it. I would ask that you stop *assuming* ill intent beyond that statement. If you have a question, ask it, don't just *accuse* me of having the wrong answer to it. >If a specific team can kill VG in 7 mins, easy mode VG will be killable in way less time. The group will just power through mechanics (effectively ignoring mechanics. Some do that already, with no Gorse updraft etc). That adds nothing. As you say, many mechanics are already powered through. While players may have to engage with them, they don't stop DPSing for significant amounts of time in most cases, so powering through more of them likely wouldn't result in faster clears. Most teams are already mostly maxed out on DPS. In contrast, the players that are expected to plan easy mode would not be remotely as maxed out, and therefore would have much lower DPS. If necessary, I believe it would be fine for easy mode bosses to have MORE HP, or perhaps higher defense if that would better balance out the "max DPS" verses "average DPS" experiences. My goal is for them to take roughly as long or longer to complete, so how that is achieved is up in the air. More importantly, the rewards per clear would be **well less,** and would face a weekly cap, so even **if** players could clear the boss in a fraction of the time (which, again, is not the intent), they would still end up making far less return on that time spent than if they'd killed the normal mode boss, so for those that can clear the normal mode version, they would have no reason to go after the easy. >People have trained for their kills. It may seem surprising to you, but simply breezing through raid bosses isnt exactly "hundreds of hours". This is something I have trouble with, because half the time, what I hear from raiders is "raids are sooooooooooooo easy, any idiot can complete them like the first time! Easy modes would be 1000% pointless!!!!!" and then the other half of the time they say "you need to spend hours and hours training each boss before you manage to kill it, being able to just show up and kill it would be cheapening the experience!" I'm not sure who to trust, but the latter *is* more consistent with my own experience. It can't be both things. But the point of easy mode *is* to remove that time spent training and to make it something you can breeze through, at the cost that you get a lot less reward per time spent. You can either spend a few dozen hours "gitting gud," and then clear the raid bosses 150 times to get 150 Li, OR you could avoid the training period and just run the easy mode, and have to clear the raid bosses 450 times to get 150Li. I think the alternate path is more than fair, and honestly at this point I couldn't care less if anyone doesn't. >I dont raid. If i wanted envoy armor, I would most certainly raid. I do wvw a lot. Warnringer, sublime armor etc are exclusive there, as well. They are by no means "shallowly buried" (try reaching 2k rank). My same philosophy applies there as well. Basically it would be that maybe one "seed" piece of earning Sublime armor could *only* be acquired in WvW, but after that. all the rest of the set would be available in multiple other parts of the game. If you loved WvW, you could earn it there, and it should balance out to be fastest to earn there. If you don't love WvW but want the armor anyway, you can earn most of it someplace else. And of course the tradeoff to WvW is that the same system benefits them as well, they would be able to earn all sorts of other rewards from around the game just by playing WvW. Like imagine if you could earn dungeon armor without having to even play dungeons, or if you could earn map-exclusive skins from various OW maps without having to farm those maps for them? It's a fair trade, and gives players encentive to do the content they *enjoy,* rather than the ones that offer specific loot. >But I can understand that some people want what others worked for, without the effort. It has nothing to do with that. Every alternative method I support would involve MORE work than the original. It would just allow players to do it in a gameplay mode that they personally enjoy more than whatever mode the reward was originally assigned to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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