Please Overhaul Raids.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Neutra.6857" said:

> Triple Trouble and Teq does have unique skins though since the effects are unique to the skin. There are of course other examples, for instance fractal weapons which require you to do fractals. Or the hero weapons which require you do WvW, or the specialization weapons which require you to do some of the activities in HOT/POF. There are a ton of skins that can only be gotten by doing specific types of activities in this game. I see Envoy armor as the same.

The difference lies in how easy to play the content is, and how shallowly the skins are buried. At the moment there's only one armor set that can be really considered to be comparable with Envoy - it's the Glorious Hero set. And it's not legendary (though it really _should_ be).

 

The other difference, which makes Envoy unique, is that it's the only transforming skin in the game, and we can be mostly sure that there will _never_ be another set like that. Even if PvE players will get another skin, it will always be inferior in quality (even if not necessarily in aestethics).

 

Basically, we're not talking here about "one reward among many others". There are things that single envoy set out from all other rewards and cause the protests about it to be significantly stronger than in other cases. Notice, for example, how there aren't all that many complains about _other_ raid-unique skins. Or about glorious hero armor, for that matter.

 

Personally, i'd say that of the four main points of envoy armor (only pve legendary armor, low accessibility of the content, skin exclusivity, transforming skin), it's uniqueness is the least problem. If there was a second legendary transforming armor obtainable in OW PvE, i'm pretty sure that even Ohoni would have eventually given up on arguing about that skin. The reason why quite a lot of people still insist on arguing about making envoy armor more widely available is because there's not only no real chance for a second transforming pve legendary, but even the chances of getting just a new unique-skin PvE legendary aren't all that good. And if anet won't make another legendary-quality set, then the only other option is to make the already existing one more available.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Neutra.6857" said:

> Triple Trouble and Teq does have unique skins though since the effects are unique to the skin.

 

I just mean, they're more tweaks than anything major. They are classified as unique skins, just as the various colors of Ascended Weapons or SAB skins are each considered "unique," but if you don't have them, you aren't missing out on *that* much.

 

I don't contest that there certainly are plenty of skins in this game that are unique to a given location. My position is just that 1. better that *these* go away than that more follow suit, and 2. Raids are a significantly larger investment than other content, so the barrier to acquiring them is significantly higher to those that do not enjoy the current raids. This is why an easy mode would be good, allowing more players to enjoy participating.

 

>The compromise is that you get legendary armor.

 

Right, but again, that's only a "compromise" in so far as the other party wants the thing you're offering. It's like if I ask for a burger, plain, and you say "well, you can't have a burger, but how about, as a compromise, I offer the lettuce, tomato, onions, etc. that would normally go on top of a burger?" Whatever that is, it's not a compromise because it doesn't meet *any* of the first person's interests.

 

>If you just want the skin then there is no way to compromise, because there is either you get the skin or you do not.

 

Well what about the other direction? No Legendary armor, but you get the Envoy skins attached to a blue/green armor? That would be an equally fair compromise, right?

 

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> What do you guys think about a stat swappable asc armor in the same vein as caladbolg as the reward for easy mode then? I.e armor that you can trade the current one you have+currency (which you can only get [time gated] from easy mode)to essentially reset it and the runes you put on it.

 

Personally I would not object to a normal legendary set from easy mode, as long as it is not the Perfected Envoy set. This was created to be the exclusive rewards for raiding - real raiding, not pressing '1' in dumbed down versions of these fights that are basically glorified world bosses - and should remain this. It's simple common sense - you can't rob the meaning of their reward from all those who dedicated time and effort to this particular achievement. It would be outrageously unfair.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > What do you guys think about a stat swappable asc armor in the same vein as caladbolg as the reward for easy mode then? I.e armor that you can trade the current one you have+currency (which you can only get [time gated] from easy mode)to essentially reset it and the runes you put on it.

>

> Personally I would not object to a normal legendary set from easy mode, as long as it is not the Perfected Envoy set. This was created to be the exclusive rewards for raiding - real raiding, not pressing '1' in dumbed down versions of these fights that are basically glorified world bosses - and should remain this. It's simple common sense - you can't rob the meaning of their reward from all those who dedicated time and effort to this particular achievement. It would be outrageously unfair.

 

What do you say to the people who paid $60 for this game at launch, only to have that content become F2P three years later? Did that not "devalue their purchase?"

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> The difference lies in how easy to play the content is, and how shallowly the skins are buried. At the moment there's only one armor set that can be really considered to be comparable with Envoy - it's the Glorious Hero set. And it's not legendary (though it really _should_ be).

 

Important thing to note about the Glorious Hero skin is that you acquire it without paying the "usual" Legendary components, gifts and so on.

You CAN upgrade it to Legendary though by paying those materials. I don't think a PVP-only reward should ever be Legendary tier, because stat swap isn't used in PVP. So requiring a fair amount of PVE to get the gifts to upgrade the skin with stat swap capabilities is only fair. Even the other PVP Legendary, the Ascension, requires a good deal of materials and other items not available in PVP (unless you use gold to buy them) so it's not a PVP-only reward. Personally I'd much prefer if they did the Ascension the same way as Glorious Hero, get the skin by playing only PVP and then upgrade it to Legendary status (with stat swap) using materials/gifts

[nia.4725]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > What do you guys think about a stat swappable asc armor in the same vein as caladbolg as the reward for easy mode then? I.e armor that you can trade the current one you have+currency (which you can only get [time gated] from easy mode)to essentially reset it and the runes you put on it.

>

> Personally I would not object to a normal legendary set from easy mode, as long as it is not the Perfected Envoy set. This was created to be the exclusive rewards for raiding - real raiding, not pressing '1' in dumbed down versions of these fights that are basically glorified world bosses - and should remain this. It's simple common sense - you can't rob the meaning of their reward from all those who dedicated time and effort to this particular achievement. It would be outrageously unfair.

 

Agree.

 

I think easy mode, since it would be raid content, should give an Envoy skin -probably the Envoy I, ascended, then upgradable to legendary by using the same amount of mats needed for the Perfected in normal mode.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Even the other PVP Legendary, the Ascension, requires a good deal of materials and other items not available in PVP (unless you use gold to buy them) so it's not a PVP-only reward.

 

That's not technically true, I believe. The Gift of Fortune is the only one that requires more general materials, and that's just generic T6 mats. You *can* get those through reward tracks, although I imagine it would take a ton of time to accumulate. In any case, none of it requires actually leaving the Mists, since it can all be TPed. That's different than the many rewards that involve accountbound items that you must go out to find through actions.

[Bakeneko.5826]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > What do you guys think about a stat swappable asc armor in the same vein as caladbolg as the reward for easy mode then? I.e armor that you can trade the current one you have+currency (which you can only get [time gated] from easy mode)to essentially reset it and the runes you put on it.

>

> Personally I would not object to a normal legendary set from easy mode, as long as it is not the Perfected Envoy set. This was created to be the exclusive rewards for raiding - real raiding, not pressing '1' in dumbed down versions of these fights that are basically glorified world bosses - and should remain this. It's simple common sense - you can't rob the meaning of their reward from all those who dedicated time and effort to this particular achievement. It would be outrageously unfair.

 

Welcome to MMORPG - all content is bound to become "unfairly easy" after set amount of time. But I'd love if there was Fractal legendary armor, with another set of skins, general PvE open world armor for everyone with Ascended armor skins, just stat swapable and purple name, no animations, no nothing

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > What do you guys think about a stat swappable asc armor in the same vein as caladbolg as the reward for easy mode then? I.e armor that you can trade the current one you have+currency (which you can only get [time gated] from easy mode)to essentially reset it and the runes you put on it.

> >

> > Personally I would not object to a normal legendary set from easy mode, as long as it is not the Perfected Envoy set. This was created to be the exclusive rewards for raiding - real raiding, not pressing '1' in dumbed down versions of these fights that are basically glorified world bosses - and should remain this. It's simple common sense - you can't rob the meaning of their reward from all those who dedicated time and effort to this particular achievement. It would be outrageously unfair.

>

> What do you say to the people who paid $60 for this game at launch, only to have that content become F2P three years later? Did that not "devalue their purchase?"

 

F2p dont have the same rights as core accounts that paid for the game, btw. Just saying. If that were to apply to raids, you could make the first exotic armor skin available for easy mode. And thats it.

Edit: typos. Darn you, cellphone

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Bakeneko.5826" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > What do you guys think about a stat swappable asc armor in the same vein as caladbolg as the reward for easy mode then? I.e armor that you can trade the current one you have+currency (which you can only get [time gated] from easy mode)to essentially reset it and the runes you put on it.

> >

> > Personally I would not object to a normal legendary set from easy mode, as long as it is not the Perfected Envoy set. This was created to be the exclusive rewards for raiding - real raiding, not pressing '1' in dumbed down versions of these fights that are basically glorified world bosses - and should remain this. It's simple common sense - you can't rob the meaning of their reward from all those who dedicated time and effort to this particular achievement. It would be outrageously unfair.

>

> Welcome to MMORPG - all content is bound to become "unfairly easy" after set amount of time. But I'd love if there was Fractal legendary armor, with another set of skins, general PvE open world armor for everyone with Ascended armor skins, just stat swapable and purple name, no animations, no nothing

 

If you're talking about power creep, that's nowhere near on the same scale. As for the addition of other PvE legendary armors, I *seriously* doubt we'll see that.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > What do you guys think about a stat swappable asc armor in the same vein as caladbolg as the reward for easy mode then? I.e armor that you can trade the current one you have+currency (which you can only get [time gated] from easy mode)to essentially reset it and the runes you put on it.

> > >

> > > Personally I would not object to a normal legendary set from easy mode, as long as it is not the Perfected Envoy set. This was created to be the exclusive rewards for raiding - real raiding, not pressing '1' in dumbed down versions of these fights that are basically glorified world bosses - and should remain this. It's simple common sense - you can't rob the meaning of their reward from all those who dedicated time and effort to this particular achievement. It would be outrageously unfair.

> >

> > What do you say to the people who paid $60 for this game at launch, only to have that content become F2P three years later? Did that not "devalue their purchase?"

>

> F2p dont have the same rights as core accounts that paid for the game, btw. Just saying. If that were to aply to raids, you could make the first exotic armor skin available for easy mode. And thats it. It

 

Ok, if you want to argue semantics, then what about those who were able to buy the game outright, with ALL rights and benefits, for only $10 in the months leading up to HoT? Or what about how a launch player would have had to pay a total of $110 to get either HoT or PoF alongside their launch purchase, while a newcomer could get both the entire launch game *and* the expansion for that price?

 

Now let's be clear, *I* am not upset at all by either situation, because I am a rational human being and I understand that this is how the world works, sometimes you do put a lot of effort into something and then it later becomes much cheaper to acquire, and there's no rational reason to throw a fit over such a thing. The benefit you get out of it for the "higher price" is the time spent with it in between when you got it and when the "lower price" became available, and the universe owes you nothing more than that.

[Bakeneko.5826]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

 

> If you're talking about power creep, that's nowhere near on the same scale. As for the addition of other PvE legendary armors, I *seriously* doubt we'll see that.

 

No, about item devaluing, easier ways to obtain items. When I got my first Ascended set I had to spend ton of money to craft it, now it drops like trash items in fractals. Same will happen with legendary armor - due to power creep Wing 1-3 bosses are getting easier and easier, heck, I think my alt account for daily farming has enough LI from escorts and W1 to craft a set already. Anet really needs to get on top of power creep introduced in PoF, since HoT was kind of power baseline for raids, or tune raids up as not to become weekly "run w1 - w4 for easy LI and loots". Also, as players get better at raiding, buying raid achievements are easier than ever, thus getting legendary armor achievements and stuff. So as far as "It would be outrageously unfair" goes, it is happening already - legendary armor is slowly becoming from raiders items to whoever has enough money to buy achievements. Is it bad? Not really. Is it good? No really. Can something be done to negate it? Not really.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Bakeneko.5826" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

>

> > If you're talking about power creep, that's nowhere near on the same scale. As for the addition of other PvE legendary armors, I *seriously* doubt we'll see that.

>

> No, about item devaluing, easier ways to obtain items. When I got my first Ascended set I had to spend ton of money to craft it, now it drops like trash items in fractals. Same will happen with legendary armor - due to power creep Wing 1-3 bosses are getting easier and easier, heck, I think my alt account for daily farming has enough LI from escorts and W1 to craft a set already. Anet really needs to get on top of power creep introduced in PoF, since HoT was kind of power baseline for raids, or tune raids up as not to become weekly "run w1 - w4 for easy LI and loots". Also, as players get better at raiding, buying raid achievements are easier than ever, thus getting legendary armor achievements and stuff. So as far as "It would be outrageously unfair" goes, it is happening already - legendary armor is slowly becoming from raiders items to whoever has enough money to buy achievements. Is it bad? Not really. Is it good? No really. Can something be done to negate it? Not really.

 

So you say "no" and then proceed to write a whole paragraph on power creep. Like I said, it's not nearly on the same scale.

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > What do you guys think about a stat swappable asc armor in the same vein as caladbolg as the reward for easy mode then? I.e armor that you can trade the current one you have+currency (which you can only get [time gated] from easy mode)to essentially reset it and the runes you put on it.

> > > >

> > > > Personally I would not object to a normal legendary set from easy mode, as long as it is not the Perfected Envoy set. This was created to be the exclusive rewards for raiding - real raiding, not pressing '1' in dumbed down versions of these fights that are basically glorified world bosses - and should remain this. It's simple common sense - you can't rob the meaning of their reward from all those who dedicated time and effort to this particular achievement. It would be outrageously unfair.

> > >

> > > What do you say to the people who paid $60 for this game at launch, only to have that content become F2P three years later? Did that not "devalue their purchase?"

> >

> > F2p dont have the same rights as core accounts that paid for the game, btw. Just saying. If that were to aply to raids, you could make the first exotic armor skin available for easy mode. And thats it. It

>

> Ok, if you want to argue semantics, then what about those who were able to buy the game outright, with ALL rights and benefits, for only $10 in the months leading up to HoT? Or what about how a launch player would have had to pay a total of $110 to get either HoT or PoF alongside their launch purchase, while a newcomer could get both the entire launch game *and* the expansion for that price?

>

> Now let's be clear, *I* am not upset at all by either situation, because I am a rational human being and I understand that this is how the world works, sometimes you do put a lot of effort into something and then it later becomes much cheaper to acquire, and there's no rational reason to throw a fit over such a thing. The benefit you get out of it for the "higher price" is the time spent with it in between when you got it and when the "lower price" became available, and the universe owes you nothing more than that.

 

You have an amazing talent for driving people into discussing things that don't make sense.

[Bakeneko.5826]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Bakeneko.5826" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >

> > > If you're talking about power creep, that's nowhere near on the same scale. As for the addition of other PvE legendary armors, I *seriously* doubt we'll see that.

> >

> > No, about item devaluing, easier ways to obtain items. When I got my first Ascended set I had to spend ton of money to craft it, now it drops like trash items in fractals. Same will happen with legendary armor - due to power creep Wing 1-3 bosses are getting easier and easier, heck, I think my alt account for daily farming has enough LI from escorts and W1 to craft a set already. Anet really needs to get on top of power creep introduced in PoF, since HoT was kind of power baseline for raids, or tune raids up as not to become weekly "run w1 - w4 for easy LI and loots". Also, as players get better at raiding, buying raid achievements are easier than ever, thus getting legendary armor achievements and stuff. So as far as "It would be outrageously unfair" goes, it is happening already - legendary armor is slowly becoming from raiders items to whoever has enough money to buy achievements. Is it bad? Not really. Is it good? No really. Can something be done to negate it? Not really.

>

> So you say "no" and then proceed to write a whole paragraph on power creep. Like I said, it's not nearly on the same scale.

 

Power creep just accelerates it, HoT was same - at the end of HoT players could 6-7 man content, so 3 or 4 spots to sell. Players are getting better, raid items are loosing their premium status.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > What do you guys think about a stat swappable asc armor in the same vein as caladbolg as the reward for easy mode then? I.e armor that you can trade the current one you have+currency (which you can only get [time gated] from easy mode)to essentially reset it and the runes you put on it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Personally I would not object to a normal legendary set from easy mode, as long as it is not the Perfected Envoy set. This was created to be the exclusive rewards for raiding - real raiding, not pressing '1' in dumbed down versions of these fights that are basically glorified world bosses - and should remain this. It's simple common sense - you can't rob the meaning of their reward from all those who dedicated time and effort to this particular achievement. It would be outrageously unfair.

> > > >

> > > > What do you say to the people who paid $60 for this game at launch, only to have that content become F2P three years later? Did that not "devalue their purchase?"

> > >

> > > F2p dont have the same rights as core accounts that paid for the game, btw. Just saying. If that were to aply to raids, you could make the first exotic armor skin available for easy mode. And thats it. It

> >

> > Ok, if you want to argue semantics, then what about those who were able to buy the game outright, with ALL rights and benefits, for only $10 in the months leading up to HoT? Or what about how a launch player would have had to pay a total of $110 to get either HoT or PoF alongside their launch purchase, while a newcomer could get both the entire launch game *and* the expansion for that price?

> >

> > Now let's be clear, *I* am not upset at all by either situation, because I am a rational human being and I understand that this is how the world works, sometimes you do put a lot of effort into something and then it later becomes much cheaper to acquire, and there's no rational reason to throw a fit over such a thing. The benefit you get out of it for the "higher price" is the time spent with it in between when you got it and when the "lower price" became available, and the universe owes you nothing more than that.

>

> You have an amazing talent for driving people into discussing things that don't make sense.

 

I didn't start this line of discussion, Feanor did when he implied that an easier to acquire Envoy skin would somehow be an affront to those who already had it, disregarding the fact that almost all things in life follow this same pattern of discounting over time. It's just a very silly thing to get worked up over and shouldn't really be used as a valid argument against opening up alternate paths to Envoy skins.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Bakeneko.5826" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Bakeneko.5826" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > >

> > > > If you're talking about power creep, that's nowhere near on the same scale. As for the addition of other PvE legendary armors, I *seriously* doubt we'll see that.

> > >

> > > No, about item devaluing, easier ways to obtain items. When I got my first Ascended set I had to spend ton of money to craft it, now it drops like trash items in fractals. Same will happen with legendary armor - due to power creep Wing 1-3 bosses are getting easier and easier, heck, I think my alt account for daily farming has enough LI from escorts and W1 to craft a set already. Anet really needs to get on top of power creep introduced in PoF, since HoT was kind of power baseline for raids, or tune raids up as not to become weekly "run w1 - w4 for easy LI and loots". Also, as players get better at raiding, buying raid achievements are easier than ever, thus getting legendary armor achievements and stuff. So as far as "It would be outrageously unfair" goes, it is happening already - legendary armor is slowly becoming from raiders items to whoever has enough money to buy achievements. Is it bad? Not really. Is it good? No really. Can something be done to negate it? Not really.

> >

> > So you say "no" and then proceed to write a whole paragraph on power creep. Like I said, it's not nearly on the same scale.

>

> Power creep just accelerates it, HoT was same - at the end of HoT players could 6-7 man content, so 3 or 4 spots to sell. Players are getting better, raid items are loosing their premium status.

 

You're really exaggerating. You can't compare GW2 - a game with literally no gear-progression - with traditional MMORPGs where BiS-gear becomes useless with every new major content-update. Yes, we have some power creep in GW2 due to new elite-specializations and class-changes, but that's still far away like traditional MMORPGs work. Yes, you can also buy raid-slots; that doesn't mean though that raid-items are loosing their value by a large margin, especially not Envoy-armor. Raids in GW2 are kept niche through some weird game design choices ANet made. That way, Envoy-armor will always hold a certain level of prestige.

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I didn't start this line of discussion, Feanor did when he implied that an easier to acquire Envoy skin would somehow be an affront to those who already had it, disregarding the fact that almost all things in life follow this same pattern of discounting over time. It's just a very silly thing to get worked up over and shouldn't really be used as a valid argument against opening up alternate paths to Envoy skins.

 

I don't know if you've noticed but nearly _everyone_ has been saying that, even proponents of easy mode raids. At some point you have to look within yourself and think "maybe I'm the one who's actually wrong?"

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > I didn't start this line of discussion, Feanor did when he implied that an easier to acquire Envoy skin would somehow be an affront to those who already had it, disregarding the fact that almost all things in life follow this same pattern of discounting over time. It's just a very silly thing to get worked up over and shouldn't really be used as a valid argument against opening up alternate paths to Envoy skins.

>

> I don't know if you've noticed but nearly _everyone_ has been saying that, even proponents of easy mode raids. At some point you have to look within yourself and think "maybe I'm the one who's actually wrong?"

 

[Nope.](

)

[AIZECK.8279]

Stop blocking the solo players from the raids anet is not nice for a stupid an ugly armor that all will trasmog in the end let the players enjoy the game.

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > I didn't start this line of discussion, Feanor did when he implied that an easier to acquire Envoy skin would somehow be an affront to those who already had it, disregarding the fact that almost all things in life follow this same pattern of discounting over time. It's just a very silly thing to get worked up over and shouldn't really be used as a valid argument against opening up alternate paths to Envoy skins.

> >

> > I don't know if you've noticed but nearly _everyone_ has been saying that, even proponents of easy mode raids. At some point you have to look within yourself and think "maybe I'm the one who's actually wrong?"

>

> [Nope.](

)

 

You're not looking that classy.

 

[here](https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7b076rElbkbEO8o/giphy.gif "https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7b076rElbkbEO8o/giphy.gif")

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > I didn't start this line of discussion, Feanor did when he implied that an easier to acquire Envoy skin would somehow be an affront to those who already had it, disregarding the fact that almost all things in life follow this same pattern of discounting over time. It's just a very silly thing to get worked up over and shouldn't really be used as a valid argument against opening up alternate paths to Envoy skins.

> > >

> > > I don't know if you've noticed but nearly _everyone_ has been saying that, even proponents of easy mode raids. At some point you have to look within yourself and think "maybe I'm the one who's actually wrong?"

> >

> > [Nope.](

)

>

> You're not looking that classy.

>

> [here](https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7b076rElbkbEO8o/giphy.gif "https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7b076rElbkbEO8o/giphy.gif")

 

Again, no, that's not my position. It's not "I want it now," it's "I want it in three times as long as it took you, just in a mode that I would enjoy as much as you did." Why do you guys need to keep distorting my position? Is it because you recognize that my *actual* position is not bad enough to argue against?

[Raizel.8175]

> @"AIZECK.8279" said:

> Stop blocking the solo players from the raids anet is not nice for a stupid an ugly armor that all will trasmog in the end let the players enjoy the game.

 

Dude, you're playing a friggin' MMORPG!

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > I didn't start this line of discussion, Feanor did when he implied that an easier to acquire Envoy skin would somehow be an affront to those who already had it, disregarding the fact that almost all things in life follow this same pattern of discounting over time. It's just a very silly thing to get worked up over and shouldn't really be used as a valid argument against opening up alternate paths to Envoy skins.

> > > >

> > > > I don't know if you've noticed but nearly _everyone_ has been saying that, even proponents of easy mode raids. At some point you have to look within yourself and think "maybe I'm the one who's actually wrong?"

> > >

> > > [Nope.](

)

> >

> > You're not looking that classy.

> >

> > [here](https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7b076rElbkbEO8o/giphy.gif "https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7b076rElbkbEO8o/giphy.gif")

>

> Again, no, that's not my position. It's not "I want it now," it's "I want it in three times as long as it took you, just in a mode that I would enjoy as much as you did." Why do you guys need to keep distorting my position? Is it because you recognize that my *actual* position is not bad enough to argue against?

 

[sure](https://i.imgur.com/1RuaI5I.gif "https://i.imgur.com/1RuaI5I.gif")

[Bakeneko.5826]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

 

> You're really exaggerating. You can't compare GW2 - a game with literally no gear-progression - with traditional MMORPGs where BiS-gear becomes useless with every new major content-update. Yes, we have some power creep in GW2 due to new elite-specializations and class-changes, but that's still far away like traditional MMORPGs work. Yes, you can also buy raid-slots; that doesn't mean though that raid-items are loosing their value by a large margin, especially not Envoy-armor. Raids in GW2 are kept niche through some weird game design choices ANet made. That way, Envoy-armor will always hold a certain level of prestige.

 

Same was said on old forums with Ascended gear, yup Ascended is still prestige... Wait it isn't :astonished: Same is happening with Envoy - when I got my legendary armor I was one of the first people with it, it was cool, new and showed how good you were. Now it shows that you cleared raids enough by any means and had enough money to cough up for materials. Honestly, I'd be much more happier if all raids were mechanics intensive, so it wasn't possible to clear them by just mindless DPS up the human exhaust port.