Please Overhaul Raids.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > That wasnt an answer to my questions. Which successful mmos do not have end game raiding and out of the ones that do, which give the highest prestige awards in an easy mode version?

> > >

> > > I don't know enough about the MMO market to answer that question, my point was that it doesn't matter, this is not those other games, and shouldn't be.

> >

> > Thank you

>

> Np. I have a question too, which successful MMOs that do have endgame raiding do not have gear progression that trivializes older raids over time?

 

Not having a gear-treadmill is one of GW2s biggest strengths. If you had one, ANet at least would have to release a new raid wing every two months 'cause old wings don't just get trivialized, they become useless and dead content just like in every other MMORPG. That's how gear-treadmills work in reality. They don't make old content easier, they kill it off 'cause it becomes unnecessary. You hardly ever find groups for that kind of content in these games or it takes ages. So yeah, GW2 is fine the way it is without a gear-treadmill. It doesn't make content faceroll and kill said content off that way and shinies keep people invested. How about you just play a dps-class? That's already kinda easy mode 'cause mostly, you don't have to deal with mechanics.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > That wasnt an answer to my questions. Which successful mmos do not have end game raiding and out of the ones that do, which give the highest prestige awards in an easy mode version?

> > >

> > > I don't know enough about the MMO market to answer that question, my point was that it doesn't matter, this is not those other games, and shouldn't be.

> >

> > Thank you

>

> Np. I have a question too, which successful MMOs that *do* have endgame raiding do *not* have gear progression that trivializes older raids over time?

 

Easy answer gw2

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > That wasnt an answer to my questions. Which successful mmos do not have end game raiding and out of the ones that do, which give the highest prestige awards in an easy mode version?

> > >

> > > I don't know enough about the MMO market to answer that question, my point was that it doesn't matter, this is not those other games, and shouldn't be.

> >

> > Thank you

>

> Np. I have a question too, which successful MMOs that *do* have endgame raiding do *not* have gear progression that trivializes older raids over time?

 

ragnarok online

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > That wasnt an answer to my questions. Which successful mmos do not have end game raiding and out of the ones that do, which give the highest prestige awards in an easy mode version?

> > >

> > > I don't know enough about the MMO market to answer that question, my point was that it doesn't matter, this is not those other games, and shouldn't be.

> >

> > Thank you

>

> Np. I have a question too, which successful MMOs that *do* have endgame raiding do *not* have gear progression that trivializes older raids over time?

 

Gw2, which is why the prestigious armor will stay prestigious and require raiding. Thanks again

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> Not having a gear-treadmill is one of GW2s biggest strengths.

 

In general, I agree, but when it comes to raids, it does cause a problem, because in most other MMOs, if you struggle with a raid today, that's not a huge problem, because in six months or so, the new gear available will make it fairly trivial for you. In GW2, there is not this cycle, if the raid is too difficult today, it'll likely always be just as difficult. *There is no hope for the future.*

 

I'm not saying that a gear treadmill is the *best* solution, but I do wish that there were more of a plan to make raids more casual over time.

 

I actually did have an idea on this that I wonder if raiders could get behind, a buff-based gear replacement. Make it so that at raid encounters more than, say, six months old, there would be a "buff shrine" outside them that would apply a ~30 minute buff to you when triggered. This buff would be equivalent to the gear upgrades players would experience in a gear-grind MMO once the raid in question had been sunset, in effect making the encounter much easier to complete, but without actually changing the encounter directly. This sounds *much* easier to implement than any other easy/hard mode suggestions, but would it be acceptable?

 

>How about you just play a dps-class? That's already kinda easy mode 'cause mostly, you don't have to deal with mechanics.

 

Many encounters have effects that you cannot afford to ignore, regardless of role, and even if not, it's hard to find an experienced group that will take on inexperienced players.

 

 

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > Not having a gear-treadmill is one of GW2s biggest strengths.

>

> In general, I agree, but when it comes to raids, it does cause a problem, because in most other MMOs, if you struggle with a raid today, that's not a huge problem, because in six months or so, the new gear available will make it fairly trivial for you. In GW2, there is not this cycle, if the raid is too difficult today, it'll likely always be just as difficult. *There is no hope for the future.*

>

> I'm not saying that a gear treadmill is the *best* solution, but I do wish that there were more of a plan to make raids more casual over time.

>

> I actually did have an idea on this that I wonder if raiders could get behind, a buff-based gear replacement. Make it so that at raid encounters more than, say, six months old, there would be a "buff shrine" outside them that would apply a ~30 minute buff to you when triggered. This buff would be equivalent to the gear upgrades players would experience in a gear-grind MMO once the raid in question had been sunset, in effect making the encounter much easier to complete, but without actually changing the encounter directly. This sounds *much* easier to implement than any other easy/hard mode suggestions, but would it be acceptable?

>

> >How about you just play a dps-class? That's already kinda easy mode 'cause mostly, you don't have to deal with mechanics.

>

> Many encounters have effects that you cannot afford to ignore, regardless of role, and even if not, it's hard to find an experienced group that will take on inexperienced players.

>

>

 

We actually had massive powercreep with elite specialisations in PoF so raids got significant easier than they were during their release time.

But we now everything that actually can fail is too hard for you.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > Not having a gear-treadmill is one of GW2s biggest strengths.

> >

> > In general, I agree, but when it comes to raids, it does cause a problem, because in most other MMOs, if you struggle with a raid today, that's not a huge problem, because in six months or so, the new gear available will make it fairly trivial for you. In GW2, there is not this cycle, if the raid is too difficult today, it'll likely always be just as difficult. *There is no hope for the future.*

> >

> > I'm not saying that a gear treadmill is the *best* solution, but I do wish that there were more of a plan to make raids more casual over time.

> >

> > I actually did have an idea on this that I wonder if raiders could get behind, a buff-based gear replacement. Make it so that at raid encounters more than, say, six months old, there would be a "buff shrine" outside them that would apply a ~30 minute buff to you when triggered. This buff would be equivalent to the gear upgrades players would experience in a gear-grind MMO once the raid in question had been sunset, in effect making the encounter much easier to complete, but without actually changing the encounter directly. This sounds *much* easier to implement than any other easy/hard mode suggestions, but would it be acceptable?

> >

> > >How about you just play a dps-class? That's already kinda easy mode 'cause mostly, you don't have to deal with mechanics.

> >

> > Many encounters have effects that you cannot afford to ignore, regardless of role, and even if not, it's hard to find an experienced group that will take on inexperienced players.

> >

> >

>

> We actually had massive powercreep with elite specialisations in PoF so raids got significant easier than they were during their release time.

> But we now everything that actually can fail is too hard for you.

 

So, what did you think about the idea I proposed?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> In general, I agree, but when it comes to raids, it does cause a problem, because in most other MMOs, if you struggle with a raid today, that's not a huge problem, because in six months or so, the new gear available will make it fairly trivial for you. In GW2, there is not this cycle, if the raid is too difficult today, it'll likely always be just as difficult. *There is no hope for the future.*

>

> I'm not saying that a gear treadmill is the *best* solution, but I do wish that there were more of a plan to make raids more casual over time.

 

First of all, Path of Fire elite specs are kind of "gear treadmill" which is really sad, but it's the truth. Having Path of Fire builds makes raiding easier, that's a given.

Second, in other MMORPGs they make the older Raids easier because their raiding community moves on, making it harder to find groups for the older Raids. The raiding community moves on because the next Raid offers higher tier gear. I don't think the Raids of Guild Wars 2 are losing traction just yet and this is for two major reasons:

a) Too slow Raid release schedule. If we had more Raids then this would be a valid concern because even the most hardcore Raiders would find it progressively harder to find more people to Raid with. Maybe in a few Raid releases we'll start seeing this but judging by participation and LFG listings this isn't the case just yet.

b) The amount of Legendary Insights required to make all three sets is 750, I don't think any significant portion of the **raiding** playerbase is even close to that, until that happens Raids will continue to be played, weekly, even only for those Legendary Insights.

 

When both conditions are satisfied, more Raids released, more players reaching 750 LI, then we'll surely experience a drop in the old Raid popularity. Although it's not something for today, I do hope they have an exit strategy for when that moment comes.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > Not having a gear-treadmill is one of GW2s biggest strengths.

> > >

> > > In general, I agree, but when it comes to raids, it does cause a problem, because in most other MMOs, if you struggle with a raid today, that's not a huge problem, because in six months or so, the new gear available will make it fairly trivial for you. In GW2, there is not this cycle, if the raid is too difficult today, it'll likely always be just as difficult. *There is no hope for the future.*

> > >

> > > I'm not saying that a gear treadmill is the *best* solution, but I do wish that there were more of a plan to make raids more casual over time.

> > >

> > > I actually did have an idea on this that I wonder if raiders could get behind, a buff-based gear replacement. Make it so that at raid encounters more than, say, six months old, there would be a "buff shrine" outside them that would apply a ~30 minute buff to you when triggered. This buff would be equivalent to the gear upgrades players would experience in a gear-grind MMO once the raid in question had been sunset, in effect making the encounter much easier to complete, but without actually changing the encounter directly. This sounds *much* easier to implement than any other easy/hard mode suggestions, but would it be acceptable?

> > >

> > > >How about you just play a dps-class? That's already kinda easy mode 'cause mostly, you don't have to deal with mechanics.

> > >

> > > Many encounters have effects that you cannot afford to ignore, regardless of role, and even if not, it's hard to find an experienced group that will take on inexperienced players.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > We actually had massive powercreep with elite specialisations in PoF so raids got significant easier than they were during their release time.

> > But we now everything that actually can fail is too hard for you.

>

> So, what did you think about the idea I proposed?

 

Nothing. GW2 is designed for content to stay relevant the whole lifetime of the game. It is against the design GW2 stands for. It opens a door for vertical progression that should never be opened. If I wanted a generic gear grinder I would play it.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>First of all, Path of Fire elite specs are kind of "gear treadmill" which is really sad, but it's the truth. Having Path of Fire builds makes raiding easier, that's a given.

 

It's possible this is true, but full expansions only come out every few years.

 

>Second, in other MMORPGs they make the older Raids easier because their raiding community moves on, making it harder to find groups for the older Raids. The raiding community moves on because the next Raid offers higher tier gear.

 

This may also be true, but is irrelevant to my point. Envoy armor is tied to Wings 1-3. This means that in a geargrind game, *eventually* 1-3 would become trivial, allowing players to collect Envoy skins if they wanted. In GW2, there is no such hope. The reasons *why* things move on is not relevant to that point, only that they *do.*

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> This may also be true, but is irrelevant to my point. Envoy armor is tied to Wings 1-3. This means that in a geargrind game, *eventually* 1-3 would become trivial, allowing players to collect Envoy skins if they wanted. In GW2, there is no such hope. The reasons *why* things move on is not relevant to that point, only that they *do.*

 

Yes but in a geargrind game 1-3 become trivial for a reason can't ignore the reason and call it irrelevant. If you want a GW2 equivalent, a future Raid might add a new Legendary Set called Envoy 2 and the Raiders will move on to get Envoy 2 and ignore Wings 1-3, making it impossible for newer players, to get Envoy armor. That's a "GW2 way" of making the older Raids obsolete and at that point the developers would need to act so as 1-3 doesn't die a sudden death. All I'm saying is that we are not at that moment yet, but that point will definitely come and even the most hardcore Raid supporters need to acknowledge this. And more than that, the developers, now what's the plan for that moment? I have no idea.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> >First of all, Path of Fire elite specs are kind of "gear treadmill" which is really sad, but it's the truth. Having Path of Fire builds makes raiding easier, that's a given.

>

> It's possible this is true, but full expansions only come out every few years.

>

> >Second, in other MMORPGs they make the older Raids easier because their raiding community moves on, making it harder to find groups for the older Raids. The raiding community moves on because the next Raid offers higher tier gear.

>

> This may also be true, but is irrelevant to my point. Envoy armor is tied to Wings 1-3. This means that in a geargrind game, *eventually* 1-3 would become trivial, allowing players to collect Envoy skins if they wanted. In GW2, there is no such hope. The reasons *why* things move on is not relevant to that point, only that they *do.*

 

Envoy armor is tied to Forsaken Thicket and Bastion of the Penitent. That is Wing 1-4, not 1-3.

Wing 1 and 4 are already trivial. You can ignore almost all mechanics in Wing 1. Wing 3 has Xera that takes a bit more and Wing 2 Matthias. Wing 4 needs 3 people at Deimos that know what they are doing, the Rest just smashes things. All other bosses are trivial.

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I actually did have an idea on this that I wonder if raiders could get behind, a buff-based gear replacement. Make it so that at raid encounters more than, say, six months old, there would be a "buff shrine" outside them that would apply a ~30 minute buff to you when triggered. This buff would be equivalent to the gear upgrades players would experience in a gear-grind MMO once the raid in question had been sunset, in effect making the encounter much easier to complete, but without actually changing the encounter directly. This sounds *much* easier to implement than any other easy/hard mode suggestions, but would it be acceptable?

 

Nah. Raid releases are too slow, we get a new raid once or twice per year maximum, so every single raid would end up having that buff. Even W5. If we had a big list of available raids, maybe (but I still don't see any reason to make raids easier over time), but right now we only have 17 bosses.

 

But overall: I don't see any reason to make raids easier over time. They actually get easier over time right now (the more known is the boss, the easier it is to find a group and beat the thing -best example, VG), no need to cheapen them directly.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Yes but in a geargrind game 1-3 become trivial for a reason can't ignore the reason and call it irrelevant. If you want a GW2 equivalent, a future Raid might add a new Legendary Set called Envoy 2 and the Raiders will move on to get Envoy 2 and ignore Wings 1-3, making it impossible for newer players, to get Envoy armor.

 

Perhaps so, *yet,* players would still be able to clear Wings 1-3 trivially, still get that Envoy set 1. They wouldn't be *as* populous, but they would be populated *enough* to clear them. And as for "Envoy 2," that would have to wait until after Envoy 3 had come out.

 

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> Wing 1 and 4 are already trivial. You can ignore almost all mechanics in Wing 1. Wing 3 has Xera that takes a bit more and Wing 2 Matthias. Wing 4 needs 3 people at Deimos that know what they are doing, the Rest just smashes things. All other bosses are trivial.

 

I hear this a lot. "The raids are already trivial."

 

I also often hear "We can't make easy modes, that would trivialize the 'hard work' people have put in to acquire them."

 

So which is it?

 

It can't be both.

 

Either the raids are already so easy to complete that there would be no harm in making an even easier mode, equivalent to giving a haircut to a bald man, OR they are not yet easy enough for certain player populations, and could benefit from difficulty reductions with an eye on meeting those players' interests.

 

So which is it?

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> Nah. Raid releases are too slow, we get a new raid once or twice per year maximum, so every single raid would end up having that buff. Even W5. If we had a big list of available raids, maybe (but I still don't see any reason to make raids easier over time), but right now we only have 17 bosses.

 

How about after a year then, rather than six months?

 

 

 

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > Wing 1 and 4 are already trivial. You can ignore almost all mechanics in Wing 1. Wing 3 has Xera that takes a bit more and Wing 2 Matthias. Wing 4 needs 3 people at Deimos that know what they are doing, the Rest just smashes things. All other bosses are trivial.

>

> I hear this a lot. "The raids are already trivial."

>

> I also often hear "We can't make easy modes, that would trivialize the 'hard work' people have put in to acquire them."

>

> So which is it?

>

> It can't be both.

>

> Either the raids are already so easy to complete that there would be no harm in making an even easier mode, equivalent to giving a haircut to a bald man, OR they are not yet easy enough for certain player populations, and could benefit from difficulty reductions with an eye on meeting those players' interests.

>

> So which is it?

 

The main difference is that you actually have to pay attention during the fight instead of doing something else even if you killed bosses multiple times. Once you learned the relevant mechanics for your role the fight becomes trivial as most mechanics are not relevant for everyone and most mechanics are easy to execute.

The barrier of entry is higher as you need to know what you are doing and pay attention in difference to the rest of the game where you can just show up and collect loot. Just look at the lastest LS release where people never bothered to use the mechanic to defeat the boss and complained it took ages to kill it. Those people have more than enough content.

People put work into learning their roles and testing strategies. You want to skip the learning part and go straight to collecting loot. There is the rest of the game for that.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> We actually had massive powercreep with elite specialisations in PoF so raids got significant easier than they were during their release time.

That's not exactly true. Remember, that this buff has been preceded by nerfs to HoT and core specs. For example, group dps is actually lower now than it was in the early days of raids. There's no 50+k DPS tempests, no GotL unique buff, many other buffs were cut down as well. There is no distortion share, and druid healing got cut down as well (and so did group sustain).

The only reason why it seems easier now is because raiders have been running the content for a lot of time now and managed to optimize it. There has been no power creep (or rather, the effects of the power creep were nullified by nerfs).

 

 

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> How about after a year then, rather than six months?

 

No : / I'll list the things.

 

* I can't see how any of the pro-easy mode demands would be satisfied with this.

* Still, in a year we get 1 or 2 raids, it does not make sense.

* That buff would be pretty much impossible to implement. Say, it gives a damage buff. What about the support classes then? Say, it gives a buff to all stats. Then it would be ridiculously overpowered. I don't think it's a good idea to force older raids to become obsolete.

 

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > We actually had massive powercreep with elite specialisations in PoF so raids got significant easier than they were during their release time.

> That's not exactly true. Remember, that this buff has been preceded by nerfs to HoT and core specs. For example, group dps is actually lower now than it was in the early days of raids. There's no 50+k DPS tempests, no GotL unique buff, many other buffs were cut down as well. There is no distortion share, and druid healing got cut down as well (and so did group sustain).

> The only reason why it seems easier now is because raiders have been running the content for a lot of time now and managed to optimize it. There has been no power creep (or rather, the effects of the power creep were nullified by nerfs).

>

 

GotL was removed later, not with PoF release. Most druids couldn't keep it up proberly so it wasn't even a 5% DPS loss for most groups anyway. Warrior and Mesmer deal still much more damage compared to prior PoF. Tempest was always supposed to be a support trait line but as ele players cried and moaned it got buffed into infinity and was the supreme DPS spec as ele must remain top DPS as long as this game exist. But we have Weavers now that actually deal more damage on most bosses than Tempest outside of the bugged scepter era.

Things die faster than during HoT. There are some core speccs that are actually competetiv on some bosses.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>The main difference is that you actually have to pay attention during the fight instead of doing something else even if you killed bosses multiple times. Once you learned the relevant mechanics for your role the fight becomes trivial as most mechanics are not relevant for everyone and most mechanics are easy to execute.

>The barrier of entry is higher as you need to know what you are doing and pay attention in difference to the rest of the game where you can just show up and collect loot. Just look at the lastest LS release where people never bothered to use the mechanic to defeat the boss and complained it took ages to kill it. Those people have more than enough content.

 

So the addition of PoF did not actually reduce the barrier of entry significantly, it just made it easier for groups that could already clear it.

 

So an easy mode would still be of benefit to those left out, while being completely off the radar of those who don't need it, since it would never be competitive in terms of effort/reward.

 

>People put work into learning their roles and testing strategies. You want to skip the learning part and go straight to collecting loot. There is the rest of the game for that.

 

The rest of the game has different content and loot though. There is still a role for easy mode raids to fill.

 

>That buff would be pretty much impossible to implement. Say, it gives a damage buff. What about the support classes then? Say, it gives a buff to all stats. Then it would be ridiculously overpowered.

 

I was thinking a buff to all stats, and yes, the idea would be for it to be ridiculously overpowered.

 

>I don't think it's a good idea to force older raids to become obsolete.

 

Then what hope do you offer to players that will never do the raids in their current form?

 

With geargrind trivialization players at least had hope.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> That's not exactly true. Remember, that this buff has been preceded by nerfs to HoT and core specs. For example, group dps is actually lower now than it was in the early days of raids. There's no 50+k DPS tempests, no GotL unique buff, many other buffs were cut down as well. There is no distortion share, and druid healing got cut down as well (and so did group sustain).

> The only reason why it seems easier now is because raiders have been running the content for a lot of time now and managed to optimize it. There has been no power creep (or rather, the effects of the power creep were nullified by nerfs).

>

 

Back before Path of Fire teams were using 2 Druids and 2 PS Warriors (the 2x Chrono, 2x Druid, 2x PS meta), after Path of Fire and the further nerfs, you need 1 Druid and 1 Banner slave Warrior opening 2 more spots for extra Damage.

[Eponet.4829]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Eponet.4829" said:

> > Having been playing WoW recently, the QoL feature that I've loved the most out of all the ones that I've seen was the "Flexible group size" on normal and heroic that allowed you to run any number of players above or equal to 10 and below or equal to 30, with the encounters scaling to compensate for it, such that you could keep a larger than normal raid team without needing to sit people out each week, or go LFG diving because you ran exactly what was needed and someone didn't show up.

> >

> > Additionally, that buffer of extra players led to much less "Stop for 20 minutes while we find more people after a person or two left midway through"

> >

> > It also allowed groups to be more inclusive, since as long as a player was able to pull their weight, you could keep them around.

>

> Mythic raiding in wow doesnt work like that.

 

I never claimed that it did. If you think that I did, take a look at the first sentence more carefully.