BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > The audacity of players that feel they are entitled to another players time/effort just because that other player decided to put in the time/effort purchase their own Commander Tag, and that they think they should be able to force themselves into another player just to make themselves feel good, is just ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > News flash no one in this game is entitled to another players time and should never be able to force themselves into/into that player/player’s time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember they bought *THEIR* Tag with *THEIR* gold and *THEIR* time, they can use *THEIR* time and *THEIR* Tag how ever they please, and they aren’t forcing players to play a certain way, they are just selecting the players they want to play with and not forcing them to do something that they don’t want to do, unlike the players complaining in this thread wanting to force others to have to play with them and change their play style. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes they bought the game with their own money, but they still have to follow anets rules, even when it comes to social issues. SO i dont get it, its their money, and their tag, but they still have to adhere to anets rules. So much for what a person is or isnt entitled to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And they are 100% abiding by Anets Rules, Show me where Anet States that’s Commander’s have to allow everyone and Anyone into their Squads and that said commanders cant kick players that they don’t want in their Squads from their Squads, I’ll wait. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yah and if they kick someone from a squad for being disabeled, they would get a ban, so right there they are not entitled to "do whatever they want" with their squads. > > > > > > > > > > > > And does that have any bearing on this thread? No? Please stop trying to derail the thread and can you prove that’s the reason they were kicked? No? So please show me where it’s stated that Commanders have to allow everyone and anyone in their Squads and that they can’t kick anyone they want from their Squads. Again I’ll wait. > > > > > > > > > > Oh im just showing you that commanders cant do whatever they want, even though you say they can. There is a clear line that they cant, so maybe the entitlement attitude should be curbed a little. Im well aware of the mechanics of squads and commanders, but like I said its not so black and white. Yes commanders can mechanically do whatever they want in a squad, and im showing an example of how even if they do what they want it can still get them in trouble. If i want to show you proof of it, all I have to do is show you the ToS. So in the future be a little more reserved in talking about commanders in the sense that they are not gods, and they do not have the right to do as they please. > > > > > > > > Did I ever say they could do whatever they want? No? Did I say Commanders we’re gods or had the authority of gods? No? Oh wow funny. > > > > > > > > Again show me where they are breaking ToS by picking and choosing who they allow in their squad, show me where Anet states that Commanders have to allow everyone and anyone into their squad, again I will wait. > > > > > > > > And again please try to keep the discussion on track which is about Commanders picking and choosing who they allow in their Squad based on class/spec. > > > > > > exclusion of any kind is what kills game modes, you would think they would want to stop that. Sadly anet is hands off with social issues to an extent, and so they leave it open for everyone to chose what to do in social issues. Its a grey area when anet says things like, this is an mmo for everyone and then leave game modes almost solely dependent on commanders and zergs (like wvw) in order to even enjoy it. Then allows commanders to exclude for basically any reason as long as they are quiet socially about it. The point of the thread is talking about how players don't like being excluded for these reasons and that perhaps anet should think of a way to fix/change it, especially in these game modes where squads/commanders are necessary in order to enjoy the game mode to its fullest. Again there is nothing talking about what commanders cant do aside from the ToS, which can be circumnavigated by simply not talking. > > > > > > Sadly the real reason commanders exclude could be anything, including not liking someones build or the person themselves. I firmly believe that in an open world setting like wvw which is dependent on zergs and commanders, that the responsibility to command should be put onto the commanders and not individual players. I don't think individual players should have to conform to what a commander wants. I think commanders should adapt/lead/and guide players using whatever builds/specs those players have (since those players bought the game too and they want to play their way, and by telling them how to play you are infringing on their rights, and their money, and their playtime, in order to be part of something as necessary as a squad in a setting that is publicly open like wvw). > > > > > > I feel like squads should be forced open, in the wvw setting and that commanders should be the one to remain flexible, not the individual players. It even makes more sense as most squads are comprised of pugs who are random individuals enjoying the game, does it make more sense to tell every single person who joins in to curb their build/specs so one person (the commander) gets what he wants? Or does it make sense to tell the commander, no the responsibility is on you to lead (which is an optional activity) and to lead everyone, because their play time is JUST AS IMPORTANT as yours. To that end if commanders don't like it or they don't want to adapt, I feel like they should not tag up (since they are refusing to be flexible and lead with what they have anyways, and someone else who can do this should be leading, and by tagging down on that map they are giving someone else who is more flexible and adaptive to command). Or if commanders like they can simply run a closed squad comprised ENTIRELY of guild members, where they are all in agreement to conforming to what the commander wants anyways. > > > > > > I'm sorry but pugs should have more rights and say in wvw and in all game modes, I don't understand the constant denigration towards people who don't want to join guilds or conform to some imaginary leader (who isnt being much of a leader at all). All anyone on here ever preaches is that everyone should just conform or get out, what about those peoples play time and the money they spent on the game (which is the majority since commanders are minority)? All i see is that commanders payed a lousy 300g and they set the tag up so we should really be concerned with their playtime and their playtime only and what they want to do and how is their play session going, if you dont like it then just dont follow them is the only solution? What about everyone elses playtime? why does it all revolve around one guy? How is this ok in a game mode like wvw which is dependent on a commander to enjoy (for the most part) who now also has the ability to exclude anyone for almost any reason, thus effectively excluding them from the enjoyment of the game mode itself? Shouldn't the commanders lead the community and be flexible so everyone can enjoy the game mode? > > > > > > What is the purpose of excluding someone from squad in wvw anyways? they still run along side the zerg and participate but now they get low priority for buffs and wipe more, which in turn raises enemies, why impose this on players? It also affects their ability to tag enemies and get credi (less rewards/less enjoyment). Why put this in the hands of the commander anyways, in this style of game mode? Would make more sense to just eliminate squads entirely in wvw and just have a tag that everyone follows, because were all here anyways, and we all just want to enjoy the game mode. After all its a game? why exclude people, its supposed to be for fun. > > > > > > > Commanders aren’t excluding anyone from a Gamemode, since anyone can participate and join in the WvW Gamemode, Commanders can pick and choose who they want in their Squads though againa Squad isn’t a Gamemode, and they do this based on that’s Commanders needs/wants for his squad to perform in a way he wants the Squad to perform with all those players consent otherwise they wouldn’t be in that squad working towards the common goal of that squad for the Squads needs/wants. > > > > > > Again what gives players with this mindset to Force yourself onto a Commanders playtime/effort without their consent, what entitled a player to Force another player to do something that they don’t want to do? Weird I wonder what that sounds like? > > > > And WvW doesn’t require a Commander at all to play the Gamemode, it doesn’t require that players be in Squads, it doesn’t require anything. > > > > Again it’s a game why Force Someone to do something that isn’t fun for them? > > If you want to play in a squad, and the enemy zerg is only on one map out of all 4 wvw maps. And there is one commander on that said map, who is excluding. You ask them to tag down because they are excluding and they will say no, and they take all of the members into their zerg because they tagged up first. Yet you want to play zvz since you bought the game like everyone else, and wvw is an open game mode and its essentially the main component of wvw, however, you are now excluded from doing that, because you aren't in the squad and you're not able to play how you want. If you tag up they tell you to tag down, because they were there first. If you go to another map and tag up, there is no enemy zerg anywhere else so you can't zvz and play the game mode as was intended. So you're only option is to play outside the squad and be excluded, essentially from the game mode that you want to play because you dont get the benefits of the squad. So like I said why should commanders have the power to exclude people essentially from a game mode, why not get rid of squads or open them all up, and force commanders to adapt so everyone can play? Again thats not excluding anyone from a Gamemode in any sense of the Term and that’s just basic common sense, Commanders aren’t excluding anyone from a Gamemode since anyone can join and participate in WvW Commanders can’t stop players from doing that no matter if they even wanted to try, Commanders have zero power over anything, they are just players that bought a cutesie little Tag, that is all, they weren’t granted any power or authority over others, but they can choose who they play with just like every other player in the game, again why should players be allowed to Force themselves upon another’s time? Hmm that kinda behavior sounds quite familiar ?. Sorry but WvW isn’t called ZvZ so ZvZ isn’t a Gamemode but WvW is and it doesn’t require the use of a Commander. /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater of Peeps.9062 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Ben K.6238" said: > As someone who doesn't join or pay attention to the tag the majority of the time, life seems so much simpler. > > If you want to be a zergling, and join a zergling tag, then why the kitten wouldn't you play a zergling class? Rangers, scrappers etc. aren't good for zerging. Never have been. > > If you're going to play those classes in WvW, build a bridge, get over it, and learn to roam. It turns out they're pretty good at that. People are being excluded from squads for numbers of reasons - wrong class/wrong build, no TS, die too much, inexperienced, don't like your attitude, etc. The majority of these squads are not full. Its wrong and makes no sense as there is advantage to inviting them (they will receive protections and maybe advice) and there is extreme disadvantage to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"Asltok.4327" said: > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > > > > > > > > > If a Commander is running a squad, they do have the right to tell people to switch to a different class; it's their tag and their squad, so they get to make the rules, as long as they're not verbally harassing anyone. However, the other players also have a right to not play in that Commander's squad and either join a new squad or just run along with the squad, without actually being IN the squad. No "technical solution" is needed here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But where do you draw the line, your saying they have the right to not let certain classes in, can also exclude people they don't like? Can also exclude people of certain religions or ethnicity too? Oh now it's against tos. Hard to know how or why people are excluded. I think that in wvw if your tagged up, anyone from your server can join,unless it's a guild group comprised 100% of guild members. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > > > > > > > > > If a Commander is running a squad, they do have the right to tell people to switch to a different class; it's their tag and their squad, so they get to make the rules, as long as they're not verbally harassing anyone. However, the other players also have a right to not play in that Commander's squad and either join a new squad or just run along with the squad, without actually being IN the squad. No "technical solution" is needed here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But where do you draw the line, your saying they have the right to not let certain classes in, can also exclude people they don't like? Can also exclude people of certain religions or ethnicity too? Oh now it's against tos. Hard to know how or why people are excluded. I think that in wvw if your tagged up, anyone from your server can join,unless it's a guild group comprised 100% of guild members. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are people attempting to join a squad in wvw bringing up their ethnicity and religion? > > > > > > > > > > > > They aren't, he just had to use an outrageous and extreme example to make his point look better. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what it is. If I don't want to play a video game with you, I won't. If I'm a leader of a group, I will reserve my right to pick who I want in my group. If I don't want certain classes, then I'm not taking them. This isn't some kindergarten inclusion zone. It's not my problem you chose to play the game in a way I deem ineffective, and I won't hamper my own time and enjoyment just to cater to you. And if it ever comes to extremes like that? It's still a video game that I use my time and money to enjoy, and if I don't want to play with you for whatever reason, I will make my own group with it's own requirements, because my time is mine alone, and I choose how to spend it. > > > > > > > > > > I feel like you should only be able to scrutinize if you have a 100% guild squad, as soon as you take in a pug, I don't feel like you should be able to exclude for any reason. > > > > > > > > Player 1 should never be able to force player 2 to play with him. > > > > > > > > If we are going to use outrageous examples here: > > > > > > > > Forcing someone else to play with you, when they do not wish to do so, is slavery. > > > > > > > > Slavery is bad. > > > > > > Slavery? You've just blown up any argument you may have. > > > > > > Isn't WvW open-join? If so, no player has the right to tell another how or what to play, 300g commander tag or not. > > > > Nope. My point is accurate. Feel free to believe that attempting to force others to work for you against their will is not just as I claim. > > Does this only work one way? It's bad to expect a commander to take anyone in but it's ok for a commander to force someone to play a profession they don't want to? Last time I checked, the commander can't forcefully log you out of your character and choose another one. Nor can they remove you from the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Eater of Peeps.9062" said: > > @"Ben K.6238" said: > > As someone who doesn't join or pay attention to the tag the majority of the time, life seems so much simpler. > > > > If you want to be a zergling, and join a zergling tag, then why the kitten wouldn't you play a zergling class? Rangers, scrappers etc. aren't good for zerging. Never have been. > > > > If you're going to play those classes in WvW, build a bridge, get over it, and learn to roam. It turns out they're pretty good at that. > > People are being excluded from squads for numbers of reasons - wrong class/wrong build, no TS, die too much, inexperienced, don't like your attitude, etc. The majority of these squads are not full. Its wrong and makes no sense as there is advantage to inviting them (they will receive protections and maybe advice) and there is extreme disadvantage to all. How is it Wrong? Who are you to decide that it is wrong? Why players with this mindset Be allowed to force themselves onto another’s time and effort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"ArchonWing.9480" said: > > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > @"Asltok.4327" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > > > > > > > > > > If a Commander is running a squad, they do have the right to tell people to switch to a different class; it's their tag and their squad, so they get to make the rules, as long as they're not verbally harassing anyone. However, the other players also have a right to not play in that Commander's squad and either join a new squad or just run along with the squad, without actually being IN the squad. No "technical solution" is needed here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But where do you draw the line, your saying they have the right to not let certain classes in, can also exclude people they don't like? Can also exclude people of certain religions or ethnicity too? Oh now it's against tos. Hard to know how or why people are excluded. I think that in wvw if your tagged up, anyone from your server can join,unless it's a guild group comprised 100% of guild members. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > > > > > > > > > > If a Commander is running a squad, they do have the right to tell people to switch to a different class; it's their tag and their squad, so they get to make the rules, as long as they're not verbally harassing anyone. However, the other players also have a right to not play in that Commander's squad and either join a new squad or just run along with the squad, without actually being IN the squad. No "technical solution" is needed here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But where do you draw the line, your saying they have the right to not let certain classes in, can also exclude people they don't like? Can also exclude people of certain religions or ethnicity too? Oh now it's against tos. Hard to know how or why people are excluded. I think that in wvw if your tagged up, anyone from your server can join,unless it's a guild group comprised 100% of guild members. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are people attempting to join a squad in wvw bringing up their ethnicity and religion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They aren't, he just had to use an outrageous and extreme example to make his point look better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what it is. If I don't want to play a video game with you, I won't. If I'm a leader of a group, I will reserve my right to pick who I want in my group. If I don't want certain classes, then I'm not taking them. This isn't some kindergarten inclusion zone. It's not my problem you chose to play the game in a way I deem ineffective, and I won't hamper my own time and enjoyment just to cater to you. And if it ever comes to extremes like that? It's still a video game that I use my time and money to enjoy, and if I don't want to play with you for whatever reason, I will make my own group with it's own requirements, because my time is mine alone, and I choose how to spend it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel like you should only be able to scrutinize if you have a 100% guild squad, as soon as you take in a pug, I don't feel like you should be able to exclude for any reason. > > > > > > > > > > Player 1 should never be able to force player 2 to play with him. > > > > > > > > > > If we are going to use outrageous examples here: > > > > > > > > > > Forcing someone else to play with you, when they do not wish to do so, is slavery. > > > > > > > > > > Slavery is bad. > > > > > > > > Slavery? You've just blown up any argument you may have. > > > > > > > > Isn't WvW open-join? If so, no player has the right to tell another how or what to play, 300g commander tag or not. > > > > > > Nope. My point is accurate. Feel free to believe that attempting to force others to work for you against their will is not just as I claim. > > > > Does this only work one way? It's bad to expect a commander to take anyone in but it's ok for a commander to force someone to play a profession they don't want to? > > Last time I checked, the commander can't forcefully log you out of your character and choose another one. Nor can they remove you from the map. > > Deflecting the argument like this is not very effective. We are all well aware that a commander who excludes affects peoples ability to enjoy the game mode. Quoting mechanics by saying things like well nobody is forcing you to ect. ect. or they cant make you ect. ect. is immaterial. The psychology of what goes on when commanders exclude (because they are allowed to do so mechanically) is well established, and that's what we are discussing here. What we are questioning is should they even be ALLOWED (mechanically) to do so in an open world setting or should mechanics be implemented preventing them from being able to do so. Sure close raids group for raids - sure, dungeon - sure, squad composed entirely of guildies - sure, open world game mode with random pugs and people in it, where you need a commander to lead your server/world for a common goal, and for everyone to enjoy the game mode, and play how they want and be included - seems like a bad idea to give commanders the power to exclude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said: > > > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > @"Asltok.4327" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > > > > > > > > > > > If a Commander is running a squad, they do have the right to tell people to switch to a different class; it's their tag and their squad, so they get to make the rules, as long as they're not verbally harassing anyone. However, the other players also have a right to not play in that Commander's squad and either join a new squad or just run along with the squad, without actually being IN the squad. No "technical solution" is needed here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But where do you draw the line, your saying they have the right to not let certain classes in, can also exclude people they don't like? Can also exclude people of certain religions or ethnicity too? Oh now it's against tos. Hard to know how or why people are excluded. I think that in wvw if your tagged up, anyone from your server can join,unless it's a guild group comprised 100% of guild members. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > > > > > > > > > > > If a Commander is running a squad, they do have the right to tell people to switch to a different class; it's their tag and their squad, so they get to make the rules, as long as they're not verbally harassing anyone. However, the other players also have a right to not play in that Commander's squad and either join a new squad or just run along with the squad, without actually being IN the squad. No "technical solution" is needed here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But where do you draw the line, your saying they have the right to not let certain classes in, can also exclude people they don't like? Can also exclude people of certain religions or ethnicity too? Oh now it's against tos. Hard to know how or why people are excluded. I think that in wvw if your tagged up, anyone from your server can join,unless it's a guild group comprised 100% of guild members. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are people attempting to join a squad in wvw bringing up their ethnicity and religion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They aren't, he just had to use an outrageous and extreme example to make his point look better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what it is. If I don't want to play a video game with you, I won't. If I'm a leader of a group, I will reserve my right to pick who I want in my group. If I don't want certain classes, then I'm not taking them. This isn't some kindergarten inclusion zone. It's not my problem you chose to play the game in a way I deem ineffective, and I won't hamper my own time and enjoyment just to cater to you. And if it ever comes to extremes like that? It's still a video game that I use my time and money to enjoy, and if I don't want to play with you for whatever reason, I will make my own group with it's own requirements, because my time is mine alone, and I choose how to spend it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel like you should only be able to scrutinize if you have a 100% guild squad, as soon as you take in a pug, I don't feel like you should be able to exclude for any reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > Player 1 should never be able to force player 2 to play with him. > > > > > > > > > > > > If we are going to use outrageous examples here: > > > > > > > > > > > > Forcing someone else to play with you, when they do not wish to do so, is slavery. > > > > > > > > > > > > Slavery is bad. > > > > > > > > > > Slavery? You've just blown up any argument you may have. > > > > > > > > > > Isn't WvW open-join? If so, no player has the right to tell another how or what to play, 300g commander tag or not. > > > > > > > > Nope. My point is accurate. Feel free to believe that attempting to force others to work for you against their will is not just as I claim. > > > > > > Does this only work one way? It's bad to expect a commander to take anyone in but it's ok for a commander to force someone to play a profession they don't want to? > > > > Last time I checked, the commander can't forcefully log you out of your character and choose another one. Nor can they remove you from the map. > > > > > > Deflecting the argument like this is not very effective. I didn't deflect anything. I'm pointing out it's a poor comparison. >We are all well aware that a commander who excludes affects peoples ability to enjoy the game mode. No. It's a person with an icon over their head. The fact you choose to give them so much power is your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArenaNet Staff Gaile Gray.6029 Posted April 27, 2018 ArenaNet Staff Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > If a Commander is running a squad, they do have the right to tell people to switch to a different class; it's their tag and their squad, so they get to make the rules, as long as they're not verbally harassing anyone. However, the other players also have a right to not play in that Commander's squad and either join a new squad or just run along with the squad, without actually being IN the squad. No "technical solution" is needed here. I believe that Rose's comments here sum up the rights and responsibilities involved in this situation. As a Ranger, I happen to think excluding my profession is the party's loss, but in the end, a person forming a group can ask for participants who fit virtually any parameter, as long as it is not in breach of our UA and Rules of Conduct. Likewise a player can decline to join any party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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