Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > Ele things to mess:

> > > > * Skill interruption, missing casts

> > > > * Conjured weapon positioning

> > > > * Conjured weapon pick up

> > > > * Rotation skill sync

> > > >

> > > > All of these result in major dps loss for ele. Which one do you think I consider to be more complex?

> > >

> > > Skill interruption isn't unique to ele, necro can do it too.

> > > Positioning isnt unique to ele, necro can miss epi due to range limit

> > > Messing up a rotation isn't unique to ele, necro can do it too.

> > >

> > > I know you want to believe ele is some spidermonkey level of complex but you're being insincere if you honestly think that ele is the only class with downsides.

> >

> > Oh, it isn't the only class with downsides, of course. But I happen to have a Scourge as well. It is much easier to pull decent numbers on Scourge than on ele. And honestly you can mess the rotation, you can interrupt your skills, as long as you press epi you're doing your job.

>

> I'm not debating which is easier, it's ultimately irrelevant to the discussion some class somewhere will always have the lower skill floor. That doesn't mean it needs to also have the lowest DPS.

 

Yes, it does. Because pick it involves *less risk*. Both in personal and party-wide perspective. If the easier build ends up being comparable in damage, then nobody will want the complex one. More potential to mess it up, meaning statistically you're more likely to end up with a player who *does* mess it up. So you end up with lower damage output, risking a party wipe. All of this could be avoided by picking the easier class. So that's what people would do.

 

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> Additionally, as i've stated several times Epidemic by itself isn't OP. If it was a single necro would always benchmark higher, as is they don't. Not even close as it stands, what makes them decent is encounter design, fix that and you'll find your raids will go right back to stacking ele's just like they used to.

 

Epi itself is not OP. Epi bouncing is. It needs to go for good, then necros can finally have a reasonable balance.

[Kam.4092]

Please suggest buffs when calling for nerfs.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Kam.4092" said:

> Please suggest buffs when calling for nerfs.

But why? Scourge is in a good spot even without additional buffs

 

A mediocre scourge will do more dmg than a mediocre weaver, it is just at the top where the additional risk and effort turns into a dps advantage

[Aktium.9506]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> A mediocre scourge will do more dmg than a mediocre weaver

 

50th percentile Weaver dps is 1.7k higher than 50th percentile dps for Scourge.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Kam.4092" said:

> > Please suggest buffs when calling for nerfs.

> But why? Scourge is in a good spot even without additional buffs

>

> A mediocre scourge will do more dmg than a mediocre weaver, it is just at the top where the additional risk and effort turns into a dps advantage

 

It isn't.

 

And as Aktium already indicated, stop inventing fake news. 50th percentile weaver is still significantly above scourge, though the amount of available data for the current balance patch is too limited to draw far-reaching conclusions. In the last balance patch, weaver was 5k ahead in general (18.4k vs 13.4k) and there were two bosses where scourge was ahead. In reality, it's most likely just one, since Sab cannon duty will hit weavers, but probably very few scourges.

[yann.1946]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"Kam.4092" said:

> > > Please suggest buffs when calling for nerfs.

> > But why? Scourge is in a good spot even without additional buffs

> >

> > A mediocre scourge will do more dmg than a mediocre weaver, it is just at the top where the additional risk and effort turns into a dps advantage

>

> It isn't.

>

> And as Aktium already indicated, stop inventing fake news. 50th percentile weaver is still significantly above scourge, though the amount of available data for the current balance patch is too limited to draw far-reaching conclusions. In the last balance patch, weaver was 5k ahead in general (18.4k vs 13.4k) and there were two bosses where scourge was ahead. In reality, it's most likely just one, since Sab cannon duty will hit weavers, but probably very few scourges.

 

well scourges have to kite flack a lot which also would decrease his dps. I don't really know which one loses more.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > @"Kam.4092" said:

> > > > Please suggest buffs when calling for nerfs.

> > > But why? Scourge is in a good spot even without additional buffs

> > >

> > > A mediocre scourge will do more dmg than a mediocre weaver, it is just at the top where the additional risk and effort turns into a dps advantage

> >

> > It isn't.

> >

> > And as Aktium already indicated, stop inventing fake news. 50th percentile weaver is still significantly above scourge, though the amount of available data for the current balance patch is too limited to draw far-reaching conclusions. In the last balance patch, weaver was 5k ahead in general (18.4k vs 13.4k) and there were two bosses where scourge was ahead. In reality, it's most likely just one, since Sab cannon duty will hit weavers, but probably very few scourges.

>

> well scourges have to kite flack a lot which also would decrease his dps. I don't really know which one loses more.

 

Good point, had not thought of that job. So whatever may be the case with Sabetha, a mediocre weaver has better dps than a mediocre scourge at at least 11 bosses.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > I'm not debating which is easier, it's ultimately irrelevant to the discussion some class somewhere will always have the lower skill floor. That doesn't mean it needs to also have the lowest DPS.

>

> Yes, it does.

 

And we're done here. Caveman logic cannot be argued against.

 

[steki.1478]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > I'm not debating which is easier, it's ultimately irrelevant to the discussion some class somewhere will always have the lower skill floor. That doesn't mean it needs to also have the lowest DPS.

> >

> > Yes, it does.

>

> And we're done here. Caveman logic cannot be argued against.

>

 

Why would someone who just started playing raids on scourge have almost same dps as someone who played weaver effectively for months?

 

> @"Aktium.9506" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > A mediocre scourge will do more dmg than a mediocre weaver

>

> 50th percentile Weaver dps is 1.7k higher than 50th percentile dps for Scourge.

 

1.7k before meteor nerf? It's still pretty low difference considering aoe barriers can be used on demand. Why are you even comparing a support spec with utility to a full dps focused spec? What's 50th percentile on warr, or tempest, or mirage or holo?

[Malediktus.9250]

I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

 

I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate


 

[Aktium.9506]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> 1.7k before meteor nerf? It's still pretty low difference considering aoe barriers can be used on demand.

> What's 50th percentile on warr, or tempest, or mirage or holo?

These should be post-patch numbers.

https://i.imgur.com/B2AreRm.png

 

> @"steki.1478" said:

> Why are you even comparing a support spec with utility to a full dps focused spec?

This really isn't something you should be saying considering Tempest was supposed to be a support spec when HoT was released, while Reaper was supposed to be pure damage. And look how that turned out.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> Why would someone who just started playing raids on scourge have almost same dps as someone who played weaver effectively for months?

 

Why would you compare a novice to not one ?

Just because it suits your narrative ?

 

Why does a perceived lower skill floor require them to have significantly lower DPS ?

I'd understand if you wanted to complain about the skill ceiling but the comment was strictly about the floor and even with the ceiling it should never be as drastic as a delta of 27%. That's horrible balance and no one should ever think that's acceptable and yet we have you, male and fenor saying it is.

[steki.1478]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > Why would someone who just started playing raids on scourge have almost same dps as someone who played weaver effectively for months?

>

> Why would you compare a novice to not one ?

> Just because it suits your narrative ?

>

> Why does a perceived lower skill floor require them to have significantly lower DPS ?

> I'd understand if you wanted to complain about the skill ceiling but the comment was strictly about the floor and even with the ceiling it should never be as drastic as a delta of 27%. That's horrible balance and no one should ever think that's acceptable and yet we have you, male and fenor saying it is.

 

Because if you compare novice ele to novice necro you'll see necro doing benchmark dps and ele being dead.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > Why would someone who just started playing raids on scourge have almost same dps as someone who played weaver effectively for months?

> >

> > Why would you compare a novice to not one ?

> > Just because it suits your narrative ?

> >

> > Why does a perceived lower skill floor require them to have significantly lower DPS ?

> > I'd understand if you wanted to complain about the skill ceiling but the comment was strictly about the floor and even with the ceiling it should never be as drastic as a delta of 27%. That's horrible balance and no one should ever think that's acceptable and yet we have you, male and fenor saying it is.

>

> Because if you compare novice ele to novice necro you'll see necro doing benchmark dps and ele being dead.

 

but neither of those would be in a raid scenario correct?

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > Why would someone who just started playing raids on scourge have almost same dps as someone who played weaver effectively for months?

> > >

> > > Why would you compare a novice to not one ?

> > > Just because it suits your narrative ?

> > >

> > > Why does a perceived lower skill floor require them to have significantly lower DPS ?

> > > I'd understand if you wanted to complain about the skill ceiling but the comment was strictly about the floor and even with the ceiling it should never be as drastic as a delta of 27%. That's horrible balance and no one should ever think that's acceptable and yet we have you, male and fenor saying it is.

> >

> > Because if you compare novice ele to novice necro you'll see necro doing benchmark dps and ele being dead.

>

> but neither of those would be in a raid scenario correct?

you would be suprised, even 250 LI groups are full (read at least two per squad) of novices who blatantly cheat their way in with chat codes. Often they admit it if you call them out in private chat.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > Why would someone who just started playing raids on scourge have almost same dps as someone who played weaver effectively for months?

> >

> > Why would you compare a novice to not one ?

> > Just because it suits your narrative ?

> >

> > Why does a perceived lower skill floor require them to have significantly lower DPS ?

> > I'd understand if you wanted to complain about the skill ceiling but the comment was strictly about the floor and even with the ceiling it should never be as drastic as a delta of 27%. That's horrible balance and no one should ever think that's acceptable and yet we have you, male and fenor saying it is.

>

> Because if you compare novice ele to novice necro you'll see necro doing benchmark dps and ele being dead.

 

If i compare novice ele to novice necro, the necro will be running minions and be nowhere near a benchmark, meanwhile novice staff ele camping fire will still be more effective.

 

But hey, that's what you get when you take novices to end-game content right ?

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > I'm not debating which is easier, it's ultimately irrelevant to the discussion some class somewhere will always have the lower skill floor. That doesn't mean it needs to also have the lowest DPS.

> >

> > Yes, it does.

>

> And we're done here. Caveman logic cannot be argued against.

>

 

Especially when I proceed to explain the logic and you thoroughly ignore it. And then you have the audacity to call *my* post "caveman logic". That's hilarious.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

>

> I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> 

>

 

On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

[yann.1946]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

>

> I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> 

>

 

We'll giving a screenshot doesn't tell much more then the scourge beeing better then the weavers

 

P.S. could you link the reddit post?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> Why would someone who just started playing raids on scourge have almost same dps as someone who played weaver effectively for months?

Most likely because the person playing the scourge was exceptionally good, or the weaver was mediocre at best. Probably both.

 

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> >

> > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > 

> >

>

> On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

 

That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

[steki.1478]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> > >

> > > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > > 

> > >

> >

> > On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

>

> That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

 

Even the boss dps was higher on scourge, it has nothing to do with cleave.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > > > > > > what amuses me the most if why are they reworking all the classes that have less priority. a major overhaul of (especially power) necromancer is the most needed thing right now (along with power ranger and few tweaks for power revenant), meanwhile they reworked chrono (which is nice, it's gotten a good power build - but chrono was already in a strong place), warrior (which is nice, it has now a good variety of power builds - but it was already in a strong place) and now the deadeye changes that are kinda unimportant. how much longer do we have to wait for the necessary overhauls and not just the optional ones?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > To be fair, Deadeye was useless while Scourge was already optimal on many places. Which just got more. Power reaper should be addressed, but gut epi first, plskthxbye.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The problem is. It only gets good if you stack necros.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Taking away epi will make scourge a supporty class. That has a barrier every 20 seconds and that's it. That's the support it does (scourge)

> > > > > > Nobody will take necro with them for that one barrier.

> > > > > > And reaper would be out of raids as well.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That's like playing heal ele without water attunement.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And cnecro didn't rlly get more. It's just one extra cast of blood is power for each fight. One extra cast for a whole of 28-32k total dmg. If you manage to transfer those conditions. Else it's only 18k (without any buffs)

> > > > >

> > > > > The problem is, you could already outperform weavers with epi bouncing on certain encounters and be close in others.

> > > > > Weavers just lost about 8k dps while epi bouncing remained more or less the same. See where I'm going with this?

> > > >

> > > > But _why_ do Weavers **have** to be TOP DPS in the first place .... pretty much since introduction now? Why can't Weavers or actually the whole class Elementalist be far more of an adaptation to the encounter kind of class. A raiding party is in need of healing, the Weaver/Ele adjusts by switching to water and be helpful there. We need CC: Earth and Air are the elements to attune to, AoE damage needed: Fire! Now, Ele's are defined by how they choose their VERY specific role before the fight commences, and should not even touch the other elements ... That's just completely bad design in the first place! But I understand why ... it's because they simply **ARE** the TOP-dps, it's because they simply **ARE** the best capable healers in the game ... etc. It's broken as hell! So I actually like what ANet is _slowly_ doing, nerf the top-numbers (and pls, keep it coming, cause this is still not enough!), so Ele's can fit more to the role that imo _should_ be their role in the first place: A jack of all trades .... an ELEMENTALIST!

> > > >

> > > > Also, what if you've never heard of GW2 before and you want to start playing it (PvE), would you directly think by just seeing the names of the professions that the Elementalist would be your absolute (BY FAR) #1 damage dealer? (AND #1 healer for that matter)??? I wouldn't! Just a simple question, would you not think that should belong more to a thief playstyle: high risk, high reward? Or that of a dark class: I bleed myself, so I can do insane damage to my opponents?

> > >

> > > Ele isnt high risk high reward? Are you playing gw2, or ele? And scourge with the huge healthpool for a light class plus shroud plus barriers, has to be top dps somehow because... It bleeds itself? This isnt some kind of crappy anime where the protagonist bleeds himself and goes super sayian, mate. Scourge is just bashing your head on a keyboard, has higher survivability than heavy classes, has epidemic which is absolutely broken when 2+ scourges are together. Reaper is dead, power necro is dead, scourge condi reigns. Also, 2 wrongs dont make ANY right. the fact that powernec isnt existing, doesnt mean that powerele should get heavily nerfed, as well. Necro is in dire need of an overhaul. Also, if ele bothers you, how about mesmer class? Top dps top utilities top tank good heals. And that is ok, somehow?

> >

> > So you never played condi necro. U can easily kill yourself now, if u fcked up Ur transfer.

> >

> > And no. Ele isn't much more risk than other classes in raids. The only risk taking an ele with your group, is that this guy doesn't find his dmg spells. And sux at the game.

> > But that can happen with other classes as well.

> >

> > Tbh. It's rlly good that staff ele got heavily nerfed.

> > That offers more build diversity for ele which other classes still not have.

> >

> > And you can say the same thing about ele.

> >

> > Have you ever tried to tank with ele. Do you know how much heal and boon support it provides?

> > You can even handkite on Deimos.

> >

> > So don't fcking tell me that ele is bad. And don't tell me necro is op because of epi.

> > Yeah it might be little bit over the top with epibounce. But necro can't tank and the healing capabilities.... It's okayish but nowhere near ele or rev. You can get freaking 12k heal from one ability on ele!

> >

> > But it seems like you are also only one of these copy paste guys that never ever tried to make builds on his own.

> >

> > Oh and never ever bring that point up again: necro has higher healthily and barriers.

> >

> > So what. We don't have a single evade on weapons kills. We don't have a single good teleport or leap. We don't have a single block.

> > The only thing necro has is a 4k Barrier every 20 seconds for the WHOLE group, that's it. I'm not counting f3 since the barrier is only 2k for the WHOLE group.

> >

> > And For the rest of the time we have to use that extra health. While ele can block or just heal incoming dmg with his own regeneration.

>

> I main necro. My first char was necro. I made wvw leggy armor for necro alone, cause of build diversity.

> You compare heal ele to condi nec. Awesome!

> Nec barriers can affect the whole group. Higher healpower=higher barriers. Also, scourge Master trait 1 gives allies barriers on shade spawning. Maybe you arent too familiar with scourge traits. Furthermore,

> Ele has a 40s cooldown teleport. Scourge has his own portal, as well. It also ports up to 20 other people.

> This could go on and on.

> People like myself, who play and enjoy necro, recognize that epidemic in its current state keeps Anet from making the necro class better. I like necro a lot. I would like to see it have diversity.

> That doesnt mean ele - a high risk high reward class- has to be killed.

 

Sure. Epi keeps necro away from having more single target DPS.

But if you cut epi. You need to heavily buff necro somewhere else.

And I know necro traits pretty well. I main necro since I started playing gw2. Which is like 3 and a half years now. Why? Because I liked necros dark theme. I even played necro while ele and mesmer were like 10 k or more ahead.

 

 

You cannot give a whole raid group barrier.

And the same goes for ele: higher healpower, higher heals.

I'm not comparing heal ele to Condi necro. Maybe you should reread.

I was just saying: if epi gets removed. Scourge is considered to be a support class.

But as a support, it doesn't offer enough support while playing Condi.

it won't do enough dmg to compete with others. Even his cleave would be pretty bad.

 

Now you have to compare both support builds. Necro and ele:

Which one is better?

Both have easy access to rezzes. Ele could give protection, fury, and reflects and frostarmor if wanted.

Necro gives might and that's it. (Not counting that spectral wall doe)

 

I think anet should just make like 2 bosses of the new wing, that don't spawn adds.

That will be an indirect nerf to necro epi bouncing

 

 

 

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> > >

> > > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > > 

> > >

> >

> > On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

>

> That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

 

Both cleave and boss dps are clearly visible on the screenshot. And both are clearly higher, with 3-5k difference.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> > > >

> > > > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > > > 

> > > >

> > >

> > > On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

> >

> > That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

>

> Even the boss dps was higher on scourge, it has nothing to do with cleave.

 

...and? Still doesn't tell anything. Could very well be that the Scourge played superior. Could very well be that the Weavers killed themselves through Retribution and lost dps that way. Could be x, could be y, could be z. There simply isn't enough data for reliable conclusions. I don't get why people overrate dps anyway. The game is about mechanics and sometimes, it's logical to sacrifice dps in favor of mechanics anyway. God forbid if this game knew proper aggro-management and you'd be forced to play more situational.