Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

The only thing that could be considerably "broken" about Epi in raids is that it is 10 man content instead of 5 man content. In other pve content Epi is generally bouncing 5 players worth of condis. In raids it is bouncing 10. I'm sure when the game was first designed, they never considered that this would be an issue outside of bosses in maps that scale up and wvw where not only is it difficult to hit with epi, but people are constantly clearing condis anyway.

 

I myself don't feel that it is broken enough to have its own discussion thread. But if Arenanet were to nerf it, they shouldn't mess with the base functions of Epi in the way that the OP states. They should simply make it only allowed to bounce condis from the players who are in the subgroup with them. In other words, this makes it so Epi could only ever bounce 5 players worth of condis. <- This would be reasonable. Being able to bounce/spike the remaining durations of 5 players worth of condis is in no way better or worse than effects like 100% Quickness/Alacrity uptime, Healbot Druids, or consistently overwhelming DPS like from a Weaver.

 

Also consider that the problems being talked could have less to do with Epidemic, and more to do with boss mechanics that make themselves prone to such a utility.

[AnariiUK.7409]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> The only thing that could be considerably "broken" about Epi in raids is that it is 10 man content instead of 5 man content. In other pve content Epi is generally bouncing 5 players worth of condis. In raids it is bouncing 10. I'm sure when the game was first designed, they never considered that this would be an issue outside of bosses in maps that scale up and wvw where not only is it difficult to hit with epi, but people are constantly clearing condis anyway.

>

> I myself don't feel that it is broken enough to have its own discussion thread. But if Arenanet were to nerf it, they shouldn't mess with the base functions of Epi in the way that the OP states. They should simply make it only allowed to bounce condis from the players who are in the subgroup with them. In other words, this makes it so Epi could only ever bounce 5 players worth of condis. <- This would be reasonable. Being able to bounce/spike the remaining durations of 5 players worth of condis is in no way better or worse than effects like 100% Quickness/Alacrity uptime, Healbot Druids, or consistently overwhelming DPS like from a Weaver.

>

> Also consider that the problems being talked could have less to do with Epidemic, and more to do with boss mechanics that make themselves prone to such a utility.

 

Just to clarify a little, epi-bouncing is still extremely overpowered in 5-man compositions. My main focus in the game has being on low-man raids, and over the past year or so epi-bouncing has become the dominant way to do many of the encounters.

 

VG, Sabetha, Sloth, Trio, KC, Xera & Desmina lowmans have all seen stacking necros lately. And most of the groups I've spoken to don't find it a particularly fun or challenging way to push the records.

 

Stacked scourges just offer far too much survivability, buffing and damage right now.

 

(For the record I absolutely think classes shouldn't be balanced around lowman raids, but Scourge is still certainly overperforming in that context)

[Alehin.3746]

Epidemic is a really cool skill, it would be a shame losing access to it because of balance.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > The only thing that could be considerably "broken" about Epi in raids is that it is 10 man content instead of 5 man content. In other pve content Epi is generally bouncing 5 players worth of condis. In raids it is bouncing 10. I'm sure when the game was first designed, they never considered that this would be an issue outside of bosses in maps that scale up and wvw where not only is it difficult to hit with epi, but people are constantly clearing condis anyway.

> >

> > I myself don't feel that it is broken enough to have its own discussion thread. But if Arenanet were to nerf it, they shouldn't mess with the base functions of Epi in the way that the OP states. They should simply make it only allowed to bounce condis from the players who are in the subgroup with them. In other words, this makes it so Epi could only ever bounce 5 players worth of condis. <- This would be reasonable. Being able to bounce/spike the remaining durations of 5 players worth of condis is in no way better or worse than effects like 100% Quickness/Alacrity uptime, Healbot Druids, or consistently overwhelming DPS like from a Weaver.

> >

> > Also consider that the problems being talked could have less to do with Epidemic, and more to do with boss mechanics that make themselves prone to such a utility.

>

> Just to clarify a little, epi-bouncing is still extremely overpowered in 5-man compositions. My main focus in the game has being on low-man raids, and over the past year or so epi-bouncing has become the dominant way to do many of the encounters.

>

> VG, Sabetha, Sloth, Trio, KC, Xera & Desmina lowmans have all seen stacking necros lately. And most of the groups I've spoken to don't find it a particularly fun or challenging way to push the records.

>

> Stacked scourges just offer far too much survivability, buffing and damage right now.

>

> (For the record I absolutely think classes shouldn't be balanced around lowman raids, but Scourge is still certainly overperforming in that context)

 

Hey I hear you. I pointed this out in the "Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals" thread awhile back and not only did they not believe me about how powerful orchestrated Epi could be, they argued with me mathematically about it.

 

Regardless, if Epi were to receive some nerf, it should be a nerf to the game mode of Raids only. The skill itself as a base fundamental Core Necromancer skill is not a problem in any other game mode. If it is allowing groups to break Raid Boss mechanics, I can understand the suggestion to nerf or rather "fix" such exploitation. Just consider that the fix to the real actual fundamental problems may not lie within nerfing Epi.

[steki.1478]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > The only thing that could be considerably "broken" about Epi in raids is that it is 10 man content instead of 5 man content. In other pve content Epi is generally bouncing 5 players worth of condis. In raids it is bouncing 10. I'm sure when the game was first designed, they never considered that this would be an issue outside of bosses in maps that scale up and wvw where not only is it difficult to hit with epi, but people are constantly clearing condis anyway.

> > >

> > > I myself don't feel that it is broken enough to have its own discussion thread. But if Arenanet were to nerf it, they shouldn't mess with the base functions of Epi in the way that the OP states. They should simply make it only allowed to bounce condis from the players who are in the subgroup with them. In other words, this makes it so Epi could only ever bounce 5 players worth of condis. <- This would be reasonable. Being able to bounce/spike the remaining durations of 5 players worth of condis is in no way better or worse than effects like 100% Quickness/Alacrity uptime, Healbot Druids, or consistently overwhelming DPS like from a Weaver.

> > >

> > > Also consider that the problems being talked could have less to do with Epidemic, and more to do with boss mechanics that make themselves prone to such a utility.

> >

> > Just to clarify a little, epi-bouncing is still extremely overpowered in 5-man compositions. My main focus in the game has being on low-man raids, and over the past year or so epi-bouncing has become the dominant way to do many of the encounters.

> >

> > VG, Sabetha, Sloth, Trio, KC, Xera & Desmina lowmans have all seen stacking necros lately. And most of the groups I've spoken to don't find it a particularly fun or challenging way to push the records.

> >

> > Stacked scourges just offer far too much survivability, buffing and damage right now.

> >

> > (For the record I absolutely think classes shouldn't be balanced around lowman raids, but Scourge is still certainly overperforming in that context)

>

> Hey I hear you. I pointed this out in the "Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals" thread awhile back and not only did they not believe me about how powerful orchestrated Epi could be, they argued with me mathematically about it.

>

> Regardless, if Epi were to receive some nerf, it should be a nerf to the game mode of Raids only. The skill itself as a base fundamental Core Necromancer skill is not a problem in any other game mode. If it is allowing groups to break Raid Boss mechanics, I can understand the suggestion to nerf or rather "fix" such exploitation. Just consider that the fix to the real actual fundamental problems may not lie within nerfing Epi.

 

Where else do you use epi?

 

On wvw lords to insta kill defenders? Balanced (/s).

Generally in pvp/wvw? Useless.

Open world? You dont even get to 25 stacks of any condition.

Fractals? Good for cleaving, but you can cleave even with 10 stacks of burn or with multiple epis. Bouncing is not as effective as in raids since you have less necros and/or less buffs from other members.

 

It's strong only where it can be abused, but far below its potential where it cant. Nerfing its max potential damage (amout of stacks shared, rework to limit duration on each condi) will only affect parts of the game where epi is broken and have 0 influence on anything else. Meaning that there's no need to nerf it just in raids (it's not even possible) because this kind of nerf wont affect epi anywhere else.

 

And it's not really about breaking boss mechanics, it should always be possible, but not in extreme measures and not with effortless gameplay. Pressing tab button when someone screams in voice chat isnt really much effort and it doesnt require any practice or experience.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > The only thing that could be considerably "broken" about Epi in raids is that it is 10 man content instead of 5 man content. In other pve content Epi is generally bouncing 5 players worth of condis. In raids it is bouncing 10. I'm sure when the game was first designed, they never considered that this would be an issue outside of bosses in maps that scale up and wvw where not only is it difficult to hit with epi, but people are constantly clearing condis anyway.

> > > >

> > > > I myself don't feel that it is broken enough to have its own discussion thread. But if Arenanet were to nerf it, they shouldn't mess with the base functions of Epi in the way that the OP states. They should simply make it only allowed to bounce condis from the players who are in the subgroup with them. In other words, this makes it so Epi could only ever bounce 5 players worth of condis. <- This would be reasonable. Being able to bounce/spike the remaining durations of 5 players worth of condis is in no way better or worse than effects like 100% Quickness/Alacrity uptime, Healbot Druids, or consistently overwhelming DPS like from a Weaver.

> > > >

> > > > Also consider that the problems being talked could have less to do with Epidemic, and more to do with boss mechanics that make themselves prone to such a utility.

> > >

> > > Just to clarify a little, epi-bouncing is still extremely overpowered in 5-man compositions. My main focus in the game has being on low-man raids, and over the past year or so epi-bouncing has become the dominant way to do many of the encounters.

> > >

> > > VG, Sabetha, Sloth, Trio, KC, Xera & Desmina lowmans have all seen stacking necros lately. And most of the groups I've spoken to don't find it a particularly fun or challenging way to push the records.

> > >

> > > Stacked scourges just offer far too much survivability, buffing and damage right now.

> > >

> > > (For the record I absolutely think classes shouldn't be balanced around lowman raids, but Scourge is still certainly overperforming in that context)

> >

> > Hey I hear you. I pointed this out in the "Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals" thread awhile back and not only did they not believe me about how powerful orchestrated Epi could be, they argued with me mathematically about it.

> >

> > Regardless, if Epi were to receive some nerf, it should be a nerf to the game mode of Raids only. The skill itself as a base fundamental Core Necromancer skill is not a problem in any other game mode. If it is allowing groups to break Raid Boss mechanics, I can understand the suggestion to nerf or rather "fix" such exploitation. Just consider that the fix to the real actual fundamental problems may not lie within nerfing Epi.

>

> Where else do you use epi?

>

> On wvw lords to insta kill defenders? Balanced (/s).

> Generally in pvp/wvw? Useless.

> Open world? You dont even get to 25 stacks of any condition.

> Fractals? Good for cleaving, but you can cleave even with 10 stacks of burn or with multiple epis. Bouncing is not as effective as in raids since you have less necros and/or less buffs from other members.

>

> It's strong only where it can be abused, but far below its potential where it cant. Nerfing its max potential damage (amout of stacks shared, rework to limit duration on each condi) will only affect parts of the game where epi is broken and have 0 influence on anything else. Meaning that there's no need to nerf it just in raids (it's not even possible) because this kind of nerf wont affect epi anywhere else.

>

> And it's not really about breaking boss mechanics, it should always be possible, but not in extreme measures and not with effortless gameplay. Pressing tab button when someone screams in voice chat isnt really much effort and it doesnt require any practice or experience.

 

I've thought about this as well, since posting here. I think the skill should not be nerfed, but rather "updated" so that it makes sense and is balanced given w/e content it is being ran in. This bullet list will explain:

* Players apply condis to some initial target, without using Epi.

* First Scourge uses Epi to bounce the condis to the secondary targets.

* When the condi bounces hit, the condi stacks from the bounce only, are then added up as one big damage modifier with a duration, and then show on the name bar of the enemy as a single special condition effect that says "Epidemic" if you were to hover your cursor over it. This special "Epidemic" condition is doing nothing more than attributing the damage/duration from all of the stacks bounced from the Epidemic, for this next purpose ->

* Second Scourge goes to bounce the condis from the secondary targets back to the initial target, to further stack the condis. When he does this, he notices the condis from the new "Epidemic" condition, do not bounce.

 

In other words, Epidemic may only bounce conditions that have been applied directly from players. It cannot bounce condition stacks that have already been bounced by Epidemic. Maybe a bit more programming than they'd want to do, but this would make sense. It should be a raid function only. Epi is fine in other modes with the risk taken while using it. But I'll say it again, is the problem really Epi? Or is it the boss mechanics of raids that allow themselves to be prone to such an exploitation?

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

>

> Regardless, if Epi were to receive some nerf, it should be a nerf to the game mode of Raids only. The skill itself as a base fundamental Core Necromancer skill is not a problem in any other game mode. If it is allowing groups to break Raid Boss mechanics, I can understand the suggestion to nerf or rather "fix" such exploitation. Just consider that the fix to the real actual fundamental problems may not lie within nerfing Epi.

If Anet nerfs epi it will probably affect the whole PvE to be honest. I doubt they will spend the effort to split the balance for PvE :( They are already doing a poor job splitting between WvW/PvP/PvE

 

[Grogba.6204]

Time to _necro_ this thread but for good reason

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8x0sl4/dp_dhuum_record_447/

 

Normal mode, Dhuum phased at 6:oo which translates to a whooping 2 minutes of fight against him. OP stated that it might be possible to push DPS to the point where a Squad could phase Dhuum before/during the first Greater Deathmark.

[Malediktus.9250]

It is unfathomable why that skill is allowed to be that way for so long already, it would be an easy 3 days hotfix in any other game that respects their raid content.

[Vinceman.4572]

Fun part about epi strat on bosses is that it's still not the common tactic in most squads and especially not in pugs (maybe with a little exception for Dhuum & Desmina CM). ^^

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> >

> > Regardless, if Epi were to receive some nerf, it should be a nerf to the game mode of Raids only. The skill itself as a base fundamental Core Necromancer skill is not a problem in any other game mode. If it is allowing groups to break Raid Boss mechanics, I can understand the suggestion to nerf or rather "fix" such exploitation. Just consider that the fix to the real actual fundamental problems may not lie within nerfing Epi.

> If Anet nerfs epi it will probably affect the whole PvE to be honest. I doubt they will spend the effort to split the balance for PvE :( They are already doing a poor job splitting between WvW/PvP/PvE

>

 

Can we please stop talking about balance while also talking about GW2? This game is not balanced at all. You could argue that the game is balanced around open-world-content, but even that would be wrong since open-world-content offers a degree of difficulty, in which balance does not matter anyway. Due to the class-system, you have an abundance of classes in GW2 - taking only the specializations into consideration and assigning them one specific use each, that are already 18 classes. In instanced PvE-content though, we only have one designated tank and one designated healer, which are also atrociously overpowered buff-sources, one kinda-support/dps-hybrid (which already has to split itself between different classes to be viable) and only three main-dps-classes. That's 6 out of 18, so 33% out of the already diminished class-pool. This game has the most atrocious class-"balance"/class-system of every MMORPG I've ever played, which is ok in game-modes in which balance doesn't matter, but isn't in every other game mode. This game needs a fundamental overhaul of its class-system if you remotely want to talk about class-balance, which also includes the healthy distribution of utilitiy-skills (classes like Chrono are just utterly broken) and the redesign of concepts like phasing and how conditions work. The way the game currently works/is designed, it will never be able to make content like instanced PvE (but also content like PvP or WvW) truly blossom, which is - in my opinion - quite sad.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> Fun part about epi strat on bosses is that it's still not the common tactic in most squads and especially not in pugs (maybe with a little exception for Dhuum & Desmina CM). ^^

I think it is actually becoming more common, saw it at vg, xera and sabetha (pugs) a few times also over the last weeks.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > >

> > > Regardless, if Epi were to receive some nerf, it should be a nerf to the game mode of Raids only. The skill itself as a base fundamental Core Necromancer skill is not a problem in any other game mode. If it is allowing groups to break Raid Boss mechanics, I can understand the suggestion to nerf or rather "fix" such exploitation. Just consider that the fix to the real actual fundamental problems may not lie within nerfing Epi.

> > If Anet nerfs epi it will probably affect the whole PvE to be honest. I doubt they will spend the effort to split the balance for PvE :( They are already doing a poor job splitting between WvW/PvP/PvE

> >

>

> Can we please stop talking about balance while also talking about GW2? This game is not balanced at all. You could argue that the game is balanced around open-world-content, but even that would be wrong since open-world-content offers a degree of difficulty, in which balance does not matter anyway. Due to the class-system, you have an abundance of classes in GW2 - taking only the specializations into consideration and assigning them one specific use each, that are already 18 classes. In instanced PvE-content though, we only have one designated tank and one designated healer, which are also atrociously overpowered buff-sources, one kinda-support/dps-hybrid (which already has to split itself between different classes to be viable) and only three main-dps-classes. That's 6 out of 18, so 33% out of the already diminished class-pool. This game has the most atrocious class-"balance"/class-system of every MMORPG I've ever played, which is ok in game-modes in which balance doesn't matter, but isn't in every other game mode. This game needs a fundamental overhaul of its class-system if you remotely want to talk about class-balance, which also includes the healthy distribution of utilitiy-skills (classes like Chrono are just utterly broken) and the redesign of concepts like phasing and how conditions work. The way the game currently works/is designed, it will never be able to make content like instanced PvE (but also content like PvP or WvW) truly blossom, which is - in my opinion - quite sad.

I agree, the balance of this game is not very good. Anet is usually afraid of making big changes and then there is the big wait between balance patches. Does not mean extreme outliers like epidemic could not be adressed faster

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > Fun part about epi strat on bosses is that it's still not the common tactic in most squads and especially not in pugs (maybe with a little exception for Dhuum & Desmina CM). ^^

> I think it is actually becoming more common, saw it at vg, xera and sabetha (pugs) a few times also over the last weeks.

 

I've also seen several Scourge-squads over the last weeks in the LFG. It's certainly not that exotic anymore.

 

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > >

> > > > Regardless, if Epi were to receive some nerf, it should be a nerf to the game mode of Raids only. The skill itself as a base fundamental Core Necromancer skill is not a problem in any other game mode. If it is allowing groups to break Raid Boss mechanics, I can understand the suggestion to nerf or rather "fix" such exploitation. Just consider that the fix to the real actual fundamental problems may not lie within nerfing Epi.

> > > If Anet nerfs epi it will probably affect the whole PvE to be honest. I doubt they will spend the effort to split the balance for PvE :( They are already doing a poor job splitting between WvW/PvP/PvE

> > >

> >

> > Can we please stop talking about balance while also talking about GW2? This game is not balanced at all. You could argue that the game is balanced around open-world-content, but even that would be wrong since open-world-content offers a degree of difficulty, in which balance does not matter anyway. Due to the class-system, you have an abundance of classes in GW2 - taking only the specializations into consideration and assigning them one specific use each, that are already 18 classes. In instanced PvE-content though, we only have one designated tank and one designated healer, which are also atrociously overpowered buff-sources, one kinda-support/dps-hybrid (which already has to split itself between different classes to be viable) and only three main-dps-classes. That's 6 out of 18, so 33% out of the already diminished class-pool. This game has the most atrocious class-"balance"/class-system of every MMORPG I've ever played, which is ok in game-modes in which balance doesn't matter, but isn't in every other game mode. This game needs a fundamental overhaul of its class-system if you remotely want to talk about class-balance, which also includes the healthy distribution of utilitiy-skills (classes like Chrono are just utterly broken) and the redesign of concepts like phasing and how conditions work. The way the game currently works/is designed, it will never be able to make content like instanced PvE (but also content like PvP or WvW) truly blossom, which is - in my opinion - quite sad.

> I agree, the balance of this game is not very good. Anet is usually afraid of making big changes and then there is the big wait between balance patches. Does not mean extreme outliers like epidemic could not be adressed faster

 

True. I still think that Epi-Bouncing is quite interesting teamplaywise though. In that regard, its general function should be kept intact, though it definitely needs to be toned down, especially considering the ridiculous survivability-aspect of Scourge. They should focus on removing class-stacking anyway. Scourge-stacking isn't good game design, neither is Weaver- or Mirage-stacking. To be honest, I have no idea how to balance Mirage, but you could at least increase the CDs of Weavers AoEs while also buffing Sword/X so you have to decide if you want to have a lot of Cleave on Adds or strong single-target-dps.

 

 

[Malediktus.9250]

The problem is more DPS gets rewarded disproportionally in this game. While coordinating epi might be a slight amount of teamwork, the gains are huge since you will actually have to play way less mechanics in return.

Take the above dhuum video for example. Finishing just 2min 47s after the pre event finished you have to do a lot less potentially party full wiping mechanics. And considering it wasnt perfectly played you could probably shave of another half minute and also skip the first soul suck + another green.

Maybe if the mechanics were reworked to start percentage wise instead of timegated it could work better, but then you get punished for more DPS, not ideal either.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> The problem is more DPS gets rewarded disproportionally in this game. While coordinating epi might be a slight amount of teamwork, the gains are huge since you will actually have to play way less mechanics in return.

> Take the above dhuum video for example. Finishing just 2min 47s after the pre event finished you have to do a lot less potentially party full wiping mechanics. And considering it wasnt perfectly played you could probably shave of another half minute and also skip the first soul suck + another green.

> Maybe if the mechanics were reworked to start percentage wise instead of timegated it could work better, but then you get punished for more DPS, not ideal either.

 

That's not necessarily bad and probably a good way to solve the massive dps-balance-problem. Since the dps-potentials are so vastly unbalanced, it may be not that bad to use the percentage-solution. Sure, speed-runs are out of the window then, but the speed-run-community is a niche inside a niche. It would probably be healthier for the overall raiding-community if speed-runs weren't that rewarding and people just focus on mechanics. GW2 wouldn't even be the only game which punishes too high dps.

[Malediktus.9250]

But just like multiple difficulty modes reworking all encounters to punish high dps would probably push back any new raid content even further.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> It is unfathomable why that skill is allowed to be that way for so long already, it would be an easy 3 days hotfix in any other game that respects their raid content.

 

Because the entire necro class is built around epi,epi being its main source of cleave, and its not so easy to fix. Go look at all the main skills a condi necro uses. Without the scourge spec, its hard to find a skill that even hits more than 1 target. You have scepter 2, and corrosive poison cloud, maybe a shroud skill through something like fear->chill->bleeds, but its limited. If they nerf epi, and buff scourge, the other 2 necro possibilities (reaper and core) are basically left with no cleave at all. Unless you want to talk about power reaper, which is a joke anyways, and barely even qualifies as a build.

[Malediktus.9250]

Necro is strong enough even if they would delete epi entirely, it is a 0 skill 0 effort class

[CptAurellian.9537]

An end to epi bouncing would in no way have to include any kind of nerf to the cleave capabilities of the class. The suggestion has been made often enough: give targets hit by an outgoing epidemic a buff/debuff that prevents them from being the main target of another epi for some time. That way, they can still receive additional epis from the original target, but bouncing back no longer works.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

>

> That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

 

Hold on, I feel this statement is quite disingenuous. Epi bouncing is a dps strategy. All the mechanics are still present, you have to watch for echo, you need someone taking care of messengers. In fact, as grimjack pointed out earlier, all necro comp makes the pre-phase and taking care of enforcers more difficult. Additionally green circles are still present, as is soul suck etc, and dip.

 

Have you ever done dhuum cm? Or are you just going on hearsay from others? Removing epi would be replace "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" , with "do your standard dps rotation". Doing a dps rotation is not the hard part of dhuum cm.

 

Also, as someone who had a dhuum cm group wipe at .8% (if only we had another 2 seconds on the timer...), I can tell you that purely condi dps comps based on echo path rng have their drawbacks...

 

 

[thrag.9740]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> An end to epi bouncing would in no way have to include any kind of nerf to the cleave capabilities of the class. The suggestion has been made often enough: give targets hit by an outgoing epidemic a buff/debuff that prevents them from being the main target of another epi for some time. That way, they can still receive additional epis from the original target, but bouncing back no longer works.

 

I'm not so sure that would do what you say. Currently we have 1 necro epi off the boss out to trash mobs, and all other necros epi off trash mob onto boss. Under your idea I am pretty sure you could still have epi be a top tier strategy:

 

-Have all necros keep 1 sand shade on the trash mob, while stacked on the boss. This allows f5 to hit both targets.

-Have 1 necro stack on the boss but target the trash mob, to keep bleeds, and some torment/poison on it. Their f5 skill hits both targets as well.

-Have all necros epi off the trash mob to the boss off cool down.

 

If you want to get really fancy, have the necro who targets the trash mob call out in voice chat "epi" which signals to all necros to drop a sand shade on the trash mob, hit f5, and then cast epi off the trash mob.

 

As long as necro has cleave capability in a good skill like f5, and also has epi, it is possible to use epi to multiply conditions. It wouldn't be as strong strong as it is currently, it would require testing to get conclusive data on, but it seems still possible in this scenario. If you had 5 necros in this scenarior, each f5 is essentially being multiplied to be 5x stronger.

[yann.1946]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > An end to epi bouncing would in no way have to include any kind of nerf to the cleave capabilities of the class. The suggestion has been made often enough: give targets hit by an outgoing epidemic a buff/debuff that prevents them from being the main target of another epi for some time. That way, they can still receive additional epis from the original target, but bouncing back no longer works.

>

> I'm not so sure that would do what you say. Currently we have 1 necro epi off the boss out to trash mobs, and all other necros epi off trash mob onto boss. Under your idea I am pretty sure you could still have epi be a top tier strategy:

>

> -Have all necros keep 1 sand shade on the trash mob, while stacked on the boss. This allows f5 to hit both targets.

> -Have 1 necro stack on the boss but target the trash mob, to keep bleeds, and some torment/poison on it. Their f5 skill hits both targets as well.

> -Have all necros epi off the trash mob to the boss off cool down.

>

> If you want to get really fancy, have the necro who targets the trash mob call out in voice chat "epi" which signals to all necros to drop a sand shade on the trash mob, hit f5, and then cast epi off the trash mob.

>

> As long as necro has cleave capability in a good skill like f5, and also has epi, it is possible to use epi to multiply conditions. It wouldn't be as strong strong as it is currently, it would require testing to get conclusive data on, but it seems still possible in this scenario. If you had 5 necros in this scenarior, each f5 is essentially being multiplied to be 5x stronger.

 

This actually seems like an interesting strategy. ;)

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Just make conditions that have already been bounced by an epi, not able to be bounced again.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"ErgoProxy.9074" said:

> > Pretty funny how people want to nerf an already dog kitten class for raids/fractals even more to the ground. Just becaus like somone already said here, it does really good against a small number of boss fights. People need to shut kitten like this down, or classes will just get nerfd to the ground, because everyone always wants to look out for their class to be the best.

>

> Wrong.

>

> People dont want a necro nerf (it needs a buff actually). People want epi nerf. One thing is relying on your traits, rotations and position to do damage, other thing is to get majority of your damage when 5 people press one button every 12 seconds.

You do know that if those 5 people don't rely on those traits, rotation and positioning, but only on epi, they would also be doing next to no damage, right?

 

 

 

[Amerikajinn.4635]

I figured this discussion would be brought up again with the recent Dhuum record. The issue is if one only kills at the damage one does with epi and nothing else it looks broken. However, you need to look at the full context here:

 

The inherant high survivability of the squad thanks to barrier output means the group can run more dps builds, and allows the druid to run an more offensive build.

 

These Scourges are being played by highly competent players that have excellent communication to coordinate bounces and substantiate the bounces with good rotations.

 

Their entire strategy revolves around managing the mechanics/ positioning of the boss to allow the group to bounce as often as possible.

 

These and other factors all contribute to epi bouncing doing so well. It is not and had never been a one skill to do high dps skill as you need to everything right to make it work this well. A good Necro that is the "prime" epi can and will out dps a Necro that is only relying on epi for damage.

 

Sure, it could probably take a minor cd nerf, but to suggest drastic nerfs or the removal of epi bouncing entirely is ridiculous. Altering the base level of barrier output Scourge has in return for higher scaling would be a better choice, as it would simultaneously make stacking dps Scourge unable to completely remove the need for a healer whilst also boosting the power of a Scourge that actually builds around their healing.