Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

>

> https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-may-balance-patch/

> https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

>

> We aren’t clearing them faster just because of refined tactics, we are clearing them faster because of power creep too

Funny how you included the benchmarks for _after_ the big dps nerf, and not from before it.

 

> it’s not just the damage, it’s the role compression too where a Druid now might stacks, heals, buffs, everything, even in the multiscourge run they run the minimum support needed, 2 chrono, 1 Druid and a warrior for buffs where as at start of raids you would have an extra warrior or druid lowering damage slightly for their buffs.

You also had gotl being an actual damage buff to the whole group and not just a might stacker. Just that one change was a significant dps nerf, even without talking about what Anet has done to Tempests.

 

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> >

> > https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-may-balance-patch/

> > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> >

> > We aren’t clearing them faster just because of refined tactics, we are clearing them faster because of power creep too

> Funny how you included the benchmarks for _after_ the big dps nerf, and not from before it.

>

> > it’s not just the damage, it’s the role compression too where a Druid now might stacks, heals, buffs, everything, even in the multiscourge run they run the minimum support needed, 2 chrono, 1 Druid and a warrior for buffs where as at start of raids you would have an extra warrior or druid lowering damage slightly for their buffs.

> You also had gotl being an actual damage buff to the whole group and not just a might stacker. Just that one change was a significant dps nerf, even without talking about what Anet has done to Tempests.

>

>

 

I mean feel free to post the benchmarks from before then. Oh wait I’ll do that for you.

 

 

Yeah massive difference between the earliest benchmarks and the earliest I posted. There’s literally no earlier from qT and as far as I can tell rT (rest in peace) weren’t doing them either.

 

Yeah, GotL was a damage buff and yet we are still doing more damage per dps class in a dps role even when it’s gone.

 

Edit: just to be clear I am talking about how we have gone from 28k as a raid realistic benchmark 2 years ago to now where we are realistically seeing 35-37k and in the case of scourges and epi bounce you can see over 40k.

[Malediktus.9250]

https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8hi6c0/ln_4man_slothasor_record_555_min_105_min_left/

https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8hffzb/bats_5man_vale_guardian_204_remaining_no_druid/

 

sure, epi isnt OP at all. Almost every record posted on reddit lately was done with stacking scourges.

[Talindra.4958]

necro is such an awesome prof.. but seriously Anet. have a look at it.

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8hi6c0/ln_4man_slothasor_record_555_min_105_min_left/

> https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8hffzb/bats_5man_vale_guardian_204_remaining_no_druid/

>

> sure, epi isnt OP at all. Almost every record posted on reddit lately was done with stacking scourges.

 

It isn't.

 

Stacking professions has always been busted. Ele's used to do this, Guardians used to do this, we can jump in the way back machine if you'd like and go back to stacking warriors (before Burnzerker)....

 

But you have this real fascination for it being Epi when it's certainly not. 1 Epi is not OP, 2 Epi's is no OP, get 4 however and the issue compounds, shocking results.

[Raizel.8175]

Why are we still at this discussion? x'D Epidemic is the only saving grace Necro has currently. Want to guess where the main-portion (or at least a large(significant portion) of Necro-dmg would come from if you'd were to nerf Epidemic? From proccing friggin' Geomancy Sigil off CD. Awesome game-design, isn't it? x'D

[Amerikajinn.4635]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8hi6c0/ln_4man_slothasor_record_555_min_105_min_left/

> https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8hffzb/bats_5man_vale_guardian_204_remaining_no_druid/

>

> sure, epi isnt OP at all. Almost every record posted on reddit lately was done with stacking scourges.

 

And once again it seems you're blinded by Epidemic as a buzzword skill and fail to see why Scourge is so effective in these fights (putting aside the obvious point of Epi bouncing isn't free damage and requires strict teamwork).

 

I already explained VG so ill be brief for it: using barriers to mitigate greens means you can focus more on damage, Epidemic is always usable so it's at maximum strength, and Scourge also provides group might on top of strong revival power to make combining tank and healer as one in a druid-less run work very well.

 

As for sloth, it's many of the same reasons, but add in a lot of spammable condi cleanses/ transfers, strong cleave without even adding in Epidemic, and just a strong jack-of-all-trades skillset in general that lends itself very well to low-manning.

 

These low man records are not a result of Epidemic, but the Scourge's toolkit overall, just as record speed kills for full groups are the result of Scourge's abilities being extremely relevant to the fights in question (and are still the result of teamwork between highly skilled players.

 

I won't be surprised if Epidemic is nerfed, but it is hardly the monster of a problem you make it out to be; and deserves a cooldown hit at most.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> Why are we still at this discussion? x'D Epidemic is the only saving grace Necro has currently. Want to guess where the main-portion (or at least a large(significant portion) of Necro-dmg would come from if you'd were to nerf Epidemic? From proccing friggin' Geomancy Sigil off CD. Awesome game-design, isn't it? x'D

If epi is the only reason to take necroes maybe it would be better to delete the whole class

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > Why are we still at this discussion? x'D Epidemic is the only saving grace Necro has currently. Want to guess where the main-portion (or at least a large(significant portion) of Necro-dmg would come from if you'd were to nerf Epidemic? From proccing friggin' Geomancy Sigil off CD. Awesome game-design, isn't it? x'D

> If epi is the only reason to take necroes maybe it would be better to delete the whole class

 

Yup, I agree. If they were to nerf Epi without massively buffing other aspects of the class, they may as well delete it. It's rather sad to see how very inexperienced ANet often is when it comes to healthy game-design. Epi is just one of many examples how very flawed the game design and class balance is and it's by far not even the worst offender.

[Kam.4092]

People like you are why this game's balance is so bad. It's easy to call for nerfs, and never suggest what skills get buffs, or how to compensate for anything. You just think about nerfing nonstop.

 

Are you some salty weaver that can't be top DPS on every fight, and get hurt by high Epidemic numbers?

 

Before calling for nerfs, think about what can be buffed to compensate, or you just sound like an idiot.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> Epi is just one of many examples how very flawed the game design and class balance is and it's by far not even the worst offender.

 

That's one way to take it.

 

The other is that Epi is actually showcases good design because as an individual skill it's not broken. Heck it's not even broken when there's two epi's.

It showcases what a group of people can do when they actually work together and understand the game as a total entity.

 

Is it bad that it's better in a group ? I'd say no, and Anet would be wise to apply more of this design to other classes.

 

[Malediktus.9250]

https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8hpn3u/ivt_4man_wing_2/

 

anet needs to act

[Knox.8962]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8hpn3u/ivt_4man_wing_2/

>

> anet needs to act

 

I 100% agree. They used chrono on every one of those fights. That's really a sign of things being out of whack.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > Epi is just one of many examples how very flawed the game design and class balance is and it's by far not even the worst offender.

>

> That's one way to take it.

>

> The other is that Epi is actually showcases good design because as an individual skill it's not broken. Heck it's not even broken when there's two epi's.

> It showcases what a group of people can do when they actually work together and understand the game as a total entity.

>

> Is it bad that it's better in a group ? I'd say no, and Anet would be wise to apply more of this design to other classes.

>

 

I'm fully with you tbh. It's good that decent teamwork is that rewarding.

 

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8hpn3u/ivt_4man_wing_2/

>

> anet needs to act

 

No, ANet doesn't need to. At least not in this case. There are more serious problems.

 

[Mitch.4781]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8hpn3u/ivt_4man_wing_2/

>

> anet needs to act

 

No. You need to mind your own business. What the hell has it got to do with you how other people play raids? You don't want epi or necros in your groups, DON'T BRING THEM. And using a one off run out of the entire community as a basis for your argument is beyond dubious. These people are not the normal raiders at all. They are highly skilled gamers who make their own goals. If you are using this as an argument you don't have one.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > Epi is just one of many examples how very flawed the game design and class balance is and it's by far not even the worst offender.

>

> That's one way to take it.

>

> The other is that Epi is actually showcases good design because as an individual skill it's not broken. Heck it's not even broken when there's two epi's.

> It showcases what a group of people can do when they actually work together and understand the game as a total entity.

>

> Is it bad that it's better in a group ? I'd say no, and Anet would be wise to apply more of this design to other classes.

 

I tend to disagree. Yes, stuff that promotes teamplay is good and should be encouraged in this game. It's a shame that things like blasting fields etc. are hardly relevant anymore. In case of epi, however, I'd argue that this kind of design is rather unhealthy, because it's so class-restricted. It would be much better to have teamwork mechanics that promote a healthy class diversity instead of blindly stacking one class.

[Lalainnia.3598]

I find it funny that ppl are pushing harder then ever for an epi nerf way after scourge was fixed when it had top single target dps due to the shade bug. After the shade bug ppl completely wrote it off as a worthless spec and even after it got rebuffed still sat in the trashcan status.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Lalainnia.3598" said:

> I find it funny that ppl are pushing harder then ever for an epi nerf way after scourge was fixed when it had top single target dps due to the shade bug. After the shade bug ppl completely wrote it off as a worthless spec and even after it got rebuffed still sat in the trashcan status.

 

Was epi bouncing as prominent back then as it is now? I don't think so, which is why I'm not surprised at the growing calls for an epi nerf.

[Lalainnia.3598]

Yes it really was it just wasnt pug friendly which is the same deal now the only difference is you dont have top guilds aka what was mostly only viewed in the past as QT painting necro as a worthless class. It really just shows how ppl follow stuff depending on what they watch from guilds that speed clear.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > Epi is just one of many examples how very flawed the game design and class balance is and it's by far not even the worst offender.

> >

> > That's one way to take it.

> >

> > The other is that Epi is actually showcases good design because as an individual skill it's not broken. Heck it's not even broken when there's two epi's.

> > It showcases what a group of people can do when they actually work together and understand the game as a total entity.

> >

> > Is it bad that it's better in a group ? I'd say no, and Anet would be wise to apply more of this design to other classes.

>

> I tend to disagree. Yes, stuff that promotes teamplay is good and should be encouraged in this game. It's a shame that things like blasting fields etc. are hardly relevant anymore. In case of epi, however, I'd argue that this kind of design is rather unhealthy, because it's so class-restricted. It would be much better to have teamwork mechanics that promote a healthy class diversity instead of blindly stacking one class.

 

If you want more teamwork in general, then there are more pressing issues the combat-system has. Most prominently the stacking of various roles on two certain classes, i.e. Chrono and Druid. They're tank/heal, boonbot and mechanic-handler (through their overpowered utility-kit) in one and suppress any deeper form of teamwork just by their design. It should already talk for itself that epi-bouncing is probably the most sophisticated form of actual teamplay GW2-PvE has to offer currently (and that's really, really sad anyway). They're also the biggest atrocity to a healthy class-balance. These two classes should first and foremost be reworked instead of nerfing the single skill which makes Necro wanted in instanced PvE in the first place. Please let Necro have its place in the limelight, not like other classes have theirs since their very release.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > I tend to disagree. Yes, stuff that promotes teamplay is good and should be encouraged in this game. It's a shame that things like blasting fields etc. are hardly relevant anymore. In case of epi, however, I'd argue that this kind of design is rather unhealthy, because it's so class-restricted. It would be much better to have teamwork mechanics that promote a healthy class diversity instead of blindly stacking one class.

>

> If you want more teamwork in general, then there are more pressing issues the combat-system has. Most prominently the stacking of various roles on two certain classes, i.e. Chrono and Druid. They're tank/heal, boonbot and mechanic-handler (through their overpowered utility-kit) in one and suppress any deeper form of teamwork just by their design. It should already talk for itself that epi-bouncing is probably the most sophisticated form of actual teamplay GW2-PvE has to offer currently (and that's really, really sad anyway). They're also the biggest atrocity to a healthy class-balance. These two classes should first and foremost be reworked instead of nerfing the single skill which makes Necro wanted in instanced PvE in the first place. Please let Necro have its place in the limelight, not like other classes have theirs since their very release.

 

Oh, the chrono/druid argument again. Guess what? I'm all for breaking their support duopoly and I've stated that at many occasions. Yet there is neither a reason to derail every unrelated balance discussion in that direction nor to write a lengthy disclaimer under each post "... and I think that this, that and something else also have to happen". With regard to necro's place in the limelight, is there really such a great desire to make that dependent on one gimmick skill? Yes, epi is the only thing that currently makes necro relevant - just as it is probably the only thing that prevents necro from being reasonably balanced in general, at least with regard to PvE. Dunno about necro mains, but I'd prefer a class that's useful on any encounter over a class that's OP on some and trash on the rest.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > I tend to disagree. Yes, stuff that promotes teamplay is good and should be encouraged in this game. It's a shame that things like blasting fields etc. are hardly relevant anymore. In case of epi, however, I'd argue that this kind of design is rather unhealthy, because it's so class-restricted. It would be much better to have teamwork mechanics that promote a healthy class diversity instead of blindly stacking one class.

> >

> > If you want more teamwork in general, then there are more pressing issues the combat-system has. Most prominently the stacking of various roles on two certain classes, i.e. Chrono and Druid. They're tank/heal, boonbot and mechanic-handler (through their overpowered utility-kit) in one and suppress any deeper form of teamwork just by their design. It should already talk for itself that epi-bouncing is probably the most sophisticated form of actual teamplay GW2-PvE has to offer currently (and that's really, really sad anyway). They're also the biggest atrocity to a healthy class-balance. These two classes should first and foremost be reworked instead of nerfing the single skill which makes Necro wanted in instanced PvE in the first place. Please let Necro have its place in the limelight, not like other classes have theirs since their very release.

>

> Oh, the chrono/druid argument again. Guess what? I'm all for breaking their support duopoly and I've stated that at many occasions. Yet there is neither a reason to derail every unrelated balance discussion in that direction nor to write a lengthy disclaimer under each post "... and I think that this, that and something else also have to happen". With regard to necro's place in the limelight, is there really such a great desire to make that dependent on one gimmick skill? Yes, epi is the only thing that currently makes necro relevant - just as it is probably the only thing that prevents necro from being reasonably balanced in general, at least with regard to PvE. Dunno about necro mains, but I'd prefer a class that's useful on any encounter over a class that's OP on some and trash on the rest.

 

Well, of course the Chrono/Druid-Argument again. Yes, it's utterly old, has been repeated a bazillion times, but still is the unhealthiest aspect of class balance. Guess what, I even agree with you that no class should be a one trick pony and should have a place everywhere. I don't like reducing Necro to epi myself and would like to see the class overhauled to be viable everywhere. But knowing ANet, they'll most probably fuck up and make Necro worse than it already is. And it's not like the game design isn't discriminating either. You still have the bullshit with direct and conditional damage on certain bosses even though that's just stupid. This discussion could be very lengthy, but overall, before ANet fucks up, just keep it the way it is please.

[Voltekka.2375]

As someone who mains ele and necro...

Epidemic should be fixed. Then necro can get a decent, long awaited buff.

Weavers are waaaaaaay squishier than necros. This is common knowledge. Anyone saying otherwise is either a pro weaver, or hasnt played weaver at all. In fractals, bad weavers are permadowned. Bad necros pretty much never.

Weaver has big dps,also harder rotation. Mess up 1-2 skills and that dps plummets. Necro has an easy rotation. Again, this has nothing to do with bias. If youre so inclined to disagree, watch snowcrows or any other pro dps team video rotation+written rotations. That being said, weaver dps should be nerfed (and probably will be) a little bit.

[Deadvillager.1956]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> As someone who mains ele and necro...

> Epidemic should be fixed. Then necro can get a decent, long awaited buff.

 

We can get epi fixed once it is actually broken, which would be AFTER substantial buffs to core necro. Nobody in here cares if weaver stays top DPS, we just want necro to be viable for DPS slots. People always act as if epi was the only thing holding necro buffs back. Guess what, power necro is a thing (or isn't actually). Power necro couldnt care less about epi and is off far worse than condi necro. Where is epi holding it back?

[Malediktus.9250]

> Confusion: This condition has been reworked and will now inflict more damage to nonplayer enemies than players instead of being split between game modes.

Great epi got an indirect buff, just what we need.