How can we get wvw back to the skill based game mode it used to be?

[XenesisII.1540]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > > @"BMW.2951" said:

> > > I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT **when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1** and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

> >

> > That's called bandwagoning... SoS did the same thing at that time.

>

> ? ?

>

> Pushing a server up because the scores improved isn't bandwagoning.

>

> Joining it after or on it's way up is. 2012-2013 is the start of the game..

 

Not saying he or KnT bandwagoned, I'm saying BG got bandwagoned that's why they became the "destroyers of competition". Like I said SoS did the same thing, I was on them from their ride from like 11th to tier 1, when PRX from HoD and Tsym from DB jumped ship to strengthen their NA, and if I remember correctly SoS and BG battled a few times in tier 2 before I left the game for like 6 months during which SoS imploded and some guilds went to the other tier 1 servers.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > > > @"BMW.2951" said:

> > > > I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT **when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1** and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

> > >

> > > That's called bandwagoning... SoS did the same thing at that time.

> >

> > ? ?

> >

> > Pushing a server up because the scores improved isn't bandwagoning.

> >

> > Joining it after or on it's way up is. 2012-2013 is the start of the game..

>

> Not saying he or KnT bandwagoned, I'm saying BG got bandwagoned that's why they became the "destroyers of competition". Like I said SoS did the same thing, I was on them from their ride from like 11th to tier 1, when PRX from HoD and Tsym from DB jumped ship to strengthen their NA, and if I remember correctly SoS and BG battled a few times in tier 2 before I left the game for like 6 months during which SoS imploded and some guilds went to the other tier 1 servers.

 

Got it. I need to take a deep breath before posting lol..

[Eater of Peeps.9062]

I think the way to stir things up, and make people better players is eliminate squads/commanders and TS. People who are forced to join squads with preset cookie cutter builds and perform in predictable ways while listening to barked repetitive predictable orders caused more dumbing down in wvw than anything.

[BMW.2951]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > @"BMW.2951" said:

> > I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT **when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1** and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

>

> That's called bandwagoning... SoS did the same thing at that time.

 

Wow I had no idea joining a brand new server back in 2012 when Blackgate was in 9th place is considered "bandwagoning"

 

I had no idea.

 

wow

 

Edit: To put things in perspective....

 

KnT made Blackgate an awesome server who actually won battles time after time. Other clans saw that we were climbing the leaderboard and switched over to us and that made us even more strong. Eventually we had awesome coverage and we were unbeatable because of it.

 

KnT didn't bandwagon, other clans who saw us doing well bandwagoned.

[XenesisII.1540]

> @"BMW.2951" said:

> > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > > @"BMW.2951" said:

> > > I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT **when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1** and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

> >

> > That's called bandwagoning... SoS did the same thing at that time.

>

> Wow I had no idea joining a brand new server back in 2012 when Blackgate was in 9th place is considered "bandwagoning"

>

> I had no idea.

>

> wow

>

> Edit: To put things in perspective....

>

> KnT made Blackgate an awesome server who actually won battles time after time. Other clans saw that we were climbing the leaderboard and switched over to us and that made us even more strong. Eventually we had awesome coverage and we were unbeatable because of it.

>

> KnT didn't bandwagon, other clans who saw us doing well bandwagoned.

 

I highlighted a section in the quote for a reason.

Read my second post.

 

[Legendary Defender.5631]

> @"Kaiser.9873" said:

> > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > > @"X T D.6458" said:

> > > I remember EK and Gismor was it? Was a good group to run with, until they got mixed up with you know who.

> >

> >

> >

> > hehe

> >

>

> LMAO that was ME on the ram on my little Asura Necro.

 

lol so wrong but funny same time

[X T D.6458]

> @"BMW.2951" said:

> > @"Kaiser.9873" said:

> > > @"X T D.6458" said:

> > > > @"Kaiser.9873" said:

> > > > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > > > I'm wondering when this magical time was when WvW required skill instead of fielding the most people over the most time zones.

> > > >

> > > > Kinda wondering the same thing. From the very beginning it was he who had the best stab won. Now it's he who pirate ships best wins. No skill difference at all.

> > > > I did prefer when ppl weren't getting one-shot, but none of the metas has been particularly skill based.

> > >

> > > You have probably never been in a 6 hour garri fight :/

> >

> > Well since I left BG post-season 1 no I haven't been. Of course if you want to guess about my WvW experience, I have plenty in every tier, started life on CD with Empyrean Knights then followed them through various moves, went to BG, went to SoS, then back to BG, then on to YB where Empyrean Knights dissolved. Various guilds since then of course, and am happily in BANE atm. Those old time BG, SoR, JQ hills fights were pretty amazing.

>

> I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1 and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

 

I was on SoR at the time, and remember always fighting those KnT 40 man blobs...fun times!

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Eater of Peeps.9062" said:

> I think the way to stir things up, and make people better players is eliminate squads/commanders and TS. People who are forced to join squads with preset cookie cutter builds and perform in predictable ways while listening to barked repetitive predictable orders caused more dumbing down in wvw than anything.

 

Cookie Cutter builds come about because its the path of least resistance for everyone involved. Zerg composition has 2 major fail safes built into it...... 1. unchecked scaling because of the back asswards way the game apply caps. And 2. they can afford to fill weak points in the composition with entire builds. This is why the current meta is make or break based on the number of Firebrands, as they check all the boxes for required support functions, and don't need to do anything else. This is where the unchecked scaling problem comes in. Incidentally, this is the exact same design problem that currently defines the Raid Meta, as 10 man groups allow for much better role coverage options.

 

The issue isn't the fact builds are cookie cutter...... its more to do with the fact that certain functions in this game will carry an entire group, and thus classes with good access to them are in very high demand. It also leads to role condensing, because the more non-damage things you can offload into a single build, the more it frees up others for raw DPS. The problem is, and always has been the fact that DPS trumps everything. So surprise, surprise, everyone tries to maximize DPS for the fastest take down, while only tolerating enough defense to not get killed by minor mistakes.

 

If you compare GW1 FvF to GW2 wvw, there is one immediately apparent difference in how the builds are managed. A cookie cutter build has key vulnerabilities, and those are fairly easy to exploit. With GW1, rolling a counter was much more viable, because single target was the normal. In GW2 this doesn't work, because AOE and collateral damage is the normal. Since Roamers can't easily rely on a team composition, they build into 2 schools of thought..... fast take down, and reliable disengage. Since both Thief and Mesmer have easy access to strong disengage skills, they can afford to sink more into burst damage. Guardians and Warriors have very strong sustain and damage potential, but can't disengage; so once a fight starts, they have no choice but to see it through. Which if these do you see most often solo roaming? Theives and Mesmers have no effective counters, because disengage itself has no effective counters. Thats why the quote unquote "cookie cutter builds" can exist...... theres simply no way to tailor a counter build without being vulnerable to everything else.

[Dagger.2035]

Two words...time travel. I would go back to a few days prior to the June 23rd 2015 release.

[Eater of Peeps.9062]

I played necro and Mesmer in gw1 as my mains, tho I played every class. I play necro and Mesmer as my mains in gw2, tho I play all classes.

 

The main difference I see is that we were free to create our own unique builds in gw1 from a pretty large combination of traits/skills. In gw2 we are limited and have been limited. The first five skills come preset with the weapon you select, plus a healing skill everyone arguably needs. That leaves 3 skills and an elite from which to craft your "special build"in gw 2. Not much variation. Now compound the problem with the demands of a squad leader and guilds/alliances and the exigencies of fighting in a zerg, and voila = cookie cutter builds that are mandatory. This creates predictability, boredom and zero variation except for individual skill of players. While individual skill does affect zerg play, it is very forgiving because it is easy for people's mistakes or bad positioning or slow response, etc. to get absorbed by the mass casualty damage.

 

So, when I play necro or Mesmer in gw2 zerg, I am seeing a difference from my necro/Mesmer play in gw1 alliance battles (closest comparable battles) not based on solo damage vs AOE damage (my necro did comparable AOE damage in gw1 and my domination Mesmer ditto) but based on my limited skills/traits access and the demands of the squad commanders.

 

I was on BG since beta. I have always been pug and not part of KNT or any other wvw guild. I did not leech. I did not bandwagon. I contributed. I remember when we fought in tournaments and when we rose in ranks. We did it cuz we were good players who got even better. Period. People can challenge this all they like, but I remember pug battles without commanders or guilds where we beat other servers that were full that were 2 v 1ing us for hours for battles over SM and keeps/towers.

 

I suggest we remove all squad/ts/commander functionality from wvw and make it all random large scale pug zerg battles (you can still play with your friends and guild mates then) that are uncontrolled. Every skill level. Every class. Every garbage build with every meta build. Deaths, kills, killstreaks, defensive play, Leroy play, whatever.

 

At least then there is a level playing field, (pugs one and all!) fairness to all, challenge to all. You will never be bored. Frustrated maybe. Which might spur you to get better individually and when in zerg. But either way, good or bad, there is variation and unpredictability and skill emerges and leaders/folllowers emerge and play is more exciting and unpredictable and fresh and challenging. Its also easy to accomplish this set up, is not based on an exclusionary system, and is cheaper for anet to run/monitor -- all positive experiences for everyone.

[XenesisII.1540]

Guess KnT had 500 people in their guild online all day every day ppting to raise BG from 9th to 1st..... people still haven't figured out coverage wins matches after 6 years? If BG didn't have a bandwagon how come they started down at 9th? oh lemme guess most of those BG players were spvping instead until they took wvw seriously to help them rise in ranks.

 

Remove squad/ts/commander, is one of the ....... ..... .....

First of all anet has no control over outside voice programs, so good luck with that.

Second of all when there is no commanders around people will leave the game mode, because most pugs rely on commanders to tag up and lead them to actively do stuff. There's a reason why map populations drop when a commander tags down or leaves, because wvw doesn't have a lot of self motivation things to do like pve does. The guilds will dominate even more because they already run without tags and can function without squads, most pugs will just leave and do something else less frustrating/boring.

 

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> I'm wondering when this magical time was when WvW required skill instead of fielding the most people over the most time zones.

 

Year one when some skill and strategy existed... after that it became karmatrainwars which transmtuted into zergwars for the brain dead... now it's nothing more than scourgewars where it's a battle to paint as much grass in red circles as possible. Until ANET actually promote healthy class balance rather than jumping from one extreme to the other it will never become about skills and tactics ever again... just wait for the super guilds to appear stacked full of them...

[intox.6347]

> @"Legendary Defender.5631" said:

> In the past 4 yrs anet has dumbed down the game so much players no longer have to think about or even know what they are doing in order to win. Metabattle made it even worse. The meta has shifted to a tank, toxic spamming dull quasi pirate ship meta. This has caused the wvw population to dive drastically. So how can we as a wvw community bring back the meta where players had to learn the game and learn the classes in order to be successful in wvw?

> Leave your input below.

 

Playing from start, dont remember any better situations. Also i dont have that bad memory to talk about good old days.

Meta was same kitten as now, just different..... half of zerg staff guards 5 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 2x shouts, challenging. Few eles and necros. Boring as hell.

 

Roaming was no different.... few builds excel... other nah..... from what i remember ... d/d ele, warrior almost same as now (evis axe shield gs) , shatter mes i was playing s/d thief (sword dancer) and 3 kit condi engi (later build about perplexity runes)

[Seffen.2875]

I straight up think that most of the People here are wrong. WvW by no means has become less skill based.

 

It rather has become so skill based that most People just skip the skill part and do what is easiest.

 

Which is stacking scourges.

 

Back then, when stability worked in the old way, playing Guardian was just super easy. Spam stab. Ult. Spam stab again. and do some damage with weapons. The rotations were super easy. Stomping noobs was super easy. Good fights were still decided by Necros. Almost everything was Direct Damage so Managing conditions was not even a Thing. Just had to get rid of movement impairing.

Except for Scourges those "Good old Days" where the easiest for strong guilds. The learning curve back then can be describes as y=x. Straight Forward and super easy.

 

Hot came and things changed. The frontline became even stronger. A lot of former backline classes went into the frontline. Focusparty classes were dropped completely because there was no way to target single Targets.

 

PoF came and and they came up with Counter classes to the boon meta. Suddenly there was no more just running through the Opponent and see who Drops first. The backline was strong again.

 

Funnily enough, throughout the whole history of wvw there was always one big offender. The necro. There has never been a time where People did not complain about necro being to strong. in wvw. And stupidly weak in pve.

 

And through all the time, the more skilled part of the fight was always able to facecrush his opponents. And not only by bits but really hard.

 

And then scourge. The learning curve of this class is incredibly steep. You are strong from the very first Moment. But you won't get much better over time. Just a Little more effective. On the other Hand, classes like weaver and firebrand have an incredibly slow learning curve. Super effective if you know how to Play them but only few really can. And they are mostly in top gvg guilds who are doing Video analysation.

Therefore the whole Thing degenerated into pirateship with scourges.

 

But nonetheless, for skilled guilds it is still possible to fight and defeat stronger zergs. But all in all it has just become incredibly harder. You have to Play on Point, make no mistake, get the Maximum out of your class.

Of course are certain Limits to that but there have always been some and they have not really moved.

 

**WvW has not become less skill intensive. Rather the opposite. It has become more skill intensive.**

 

But in the same mean, People are not keeping up. They either degenerate into scourges or they blame all their failures on scourges. The average pug is extremely uneducated. Does not understand his class. Does not understand fighting. Only understands that scourge is the root of all evil. (scourge is strong and is and has been a powercreep. But it is really not as bad anymore since he was nerfed a lot.)

 

Also, there is a lack of Innovation right now.

 

[intox.6347]

> @"Seffen.2875" said:

> I straight up think that most of the People here are wrong. WvW by no means has become less skill based.

>

> It rather has become so skill based that most People just skip the skill part and do what is easiest.

>

> Which is stacking scourges.

>

> Back then, when stability worked in the old way, playing Guardian was just super easy. Spam stab. Ult. Spam stab again. and do some damage with weapons. The rotations were super easy. Stomping noobs was super easy. Good fights were still decided by Necros. Almost everything was Direct Damage so Managing conditions was not even a Thing. Just had to get rid of movement impairing.

> Except for Scourges those "Good old Days" where the easiest for strong guilds. The learning curve back then can be describes as y=x. Straight Forward and super easy.

>

> Hot came and things changed. The frontline became even stronger. A lot of former backline classes went into the frontline. Focusparty classes were dropped completely because there was no way to target single Targets.

>

> PoF came and and they came up with Counter classes to the boon meta. Suddenly there was no more just running through the Opponent and see who Drops first. The backline was strong again.

>

> Funnily enough, throughout the whole history of wvw there was always one big offender. The necro. There has never been a time where People did not complain about necro being to strong. in wvw. And stupidly weak in pve.

>

> And through all the time, the more skilled part of the fight was always able to facecrush his opponents. And not only by bits but really hard.

>

> And then scourge. The learning curve of this class is incredibly steep. You are strong from the very first Moment. But you won't get much better over time. Just a Little more effective. On the other Hand, classes like weaver and firebrand have an incredibly slow learning curve. Super effective if you know how to Play them but only few really can. And they are mostly in top gvg guilds who are doing Video analysation.

> Therefore the whole Thing degenerated into pirateship with scourges.

>

> But nonetheless, for skilled guilds it is still possible to fight and defeat stronger zergs. But all in all it has just become incredibly harder. You have to Play on Point, make no mistake, get the Maximum out of your class.

> Of course are certain Limits to that but there have always been some and they have not really moved.

>

> **WvW has not become less skill intensive. Rather the opposite. It has become more skill intensive.**

>

> But in the same mean, People are not keeping up. They either degenerate into scourges or they blame all their failures on scourges. The average pug is extremely uneducated. Does not understand his class. Does not understand fighting. Only understands that scourge is the root of all evil. (scourge is strong and is and has been a powercreep. But it is really not as bad anymore since he was nerfed a lot.)

>

> Also, there is a lack of Innovation right now.

>

 

Even if i try hard, i cant write it better.

 

+1

[LetoII.3782]

Weird, the knt I remember form that time spent it's days running from TW, fear and choo.

 

Must be a different knt

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Seffen.2875" said:

> I straight up think that most of the People here are wrong. WvW by no means has become less skill based.

>

> It rather has become so skill based that most People just skip the skill part and do what is easiest.

>

> Which is stacking scourges.

>

> Back then, when stability worked in the old way, playing Guardian was just super easy. Spam stab. Ult. Spam stab again. and do some damage with weapons. The rotations were super easy. Stomping noobs was super easy. Good fights were still decided by Necros. Almost everything was Direct Damage so Managing conditions was not even a Thing. Just had to get rid of movement impairing.

> Except for Scourges those "Good old Days" where the easiest for strong guilds. The learning curve back then can be describes as y=x. Straight Forward and super easy.

>

> Hot came and things changed. The frontline became even stronger. A lot of former backline classes went into the frontline. Focusparty classes were dropped completely because there was no way to target single Targets.

>

> PoF came and and they came up with Counter classes to the boon meta. Suddenly there was no more just running through the Opponent and see who Drops first. The backline was strong again.

>

> Funnily enough, throughout the whole history of wvw there was always one big offender. The necro. There has never been a time where People did not complain about necro being to strong. in wvw. And stupidly weak in pve.

>

> And through all the time, the more skilled part of the fight was always able to facecrush his opponents. And not only by bits but really hard.

>

> And then scourge. The learning curve of this class is incredibly steep. You are strong from the very first Moment. But you won't get much better over time. Just a Little more effective. On the other Hand, classes like weaver and firebrand have an incredibly slow learning curve. Super effective if you know how to Play them but only few really can. And they are mostly in top gvg guilds who are doing Video analysation.

> Therefore the whole Thing degenerated into pirateship with scourges.

>

> But nonetheless, for skilled guilds it is still possible to fight and defeat stronger zergs. But all in all it has just become incredibly harder. You have to Play on Point, make no mistake, get the Maximum out of your class.

> Of course are certain Limits to that but there have always been some and they have not really moved.

>

> **WvW has not become less skill intensive. Rather the opposite. It has become more skill intensive.**

>

> But in the same mean, People are not keeping up. They either degenerate into scourges or they blame all their failures on scourges. The average pug is extremely uneducated. Does not understand his class. Does not understand fighting. Only understands that scourge is the root of all evil. (scourge is strong and is and has been a powercreep. But it is really not as bad anymore since he was nerfed a lot.)

>

> Also, there is a lack of Innovation right now.

>

 

Hmm pretty much nailed down the transmute of wvw. though I do disagree in that scourges still are the frontline, the backline and the middle line in wvw.. it used to be the guardian splash runs as you saying firing up stab and charge and then let the dice roll.. now its a 50 scourges playing circles wars all over the ground because they have everything a necro never had.. including mobility, stability, power, toughness, boons, boon strips and insane condi creep.. sure they had a little of some of them before, but now all at once.. so no need for guardians to stab and cleanse ask your friendly scourge platoons to charge up... other than that the only thing that existed differently at the start was tactical awareness, planning for defence/chokes etc.. now we just have zerg charge rinse repeat.. fun for a few charges then it kinda grows old fast.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

> @"Legendary Defender.5631" said:

> In the past 4 yrs anet has dumbed down the game so much players no longer have to think about or even know what they are doing in order to win. Metabattle made it even worse. The meta has shifted to a tank, toxic spamming dull quasi pirate ship meta. This has caused the wvw population to dive drastically. So how can we as a wvw community bring back the meta where players had to learn the game and learn the classes in order to be successful in wvw?

> Leave your input below.

 

Honestly? I don't think you can. The power creep is here and there's no going back. As far as 'dumbing down' the game? Sadly, many complained early on that the game was too difficult to learn. Thus, the reason for the overhaul around the second year or so. Again . . . I don't think we can ever return to how things were.

 

In fact . . . I know we can't . . . sorry.

[Seffen.2875]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > @"Seffen.2875" said:

> > I straight up think that most of the People here are wrong. WvW by no means has become less skill based.

> >

> > It rather has become so skill based that most People just skip the skill part and do what is easiest.

> >

> > Which is stacking scourges.

> >

> > Back then, when stability worked in the old way, playing Guardian was just super easy. Spam stab. Ult. Spam stab again. and do some damage with weapons. The rotations were super easy. Stomping noobs was super easy. Good fights were still decided by Necros. Almost everything was Direct Damage so Managing conditions was not even a Thing. Just had to get rid of movement impairing.

> > Except for Scourges those "Good old Days" where the easiest for strong guilds. The learning curve back then can be describes as y=x. Straight Forward and super easy.

> >

> > Hot came and things changed. The frontline became even stronger. A lot of former backline classes went into the frontline. Focusparty classes were dropped completely because there was no way to target single Targets.

> >

> > PoF came and and they came up with Counter classes to the boon meta. Suddenly there was no more just running through the Opponent and see who Drops first. The backline was strong again.

> >

> > Funnily enough, throughout the whole history of wvw there was always one big offender. The necro. There has never been a time where People did not complain about necro being to strong. in wvw. And stupidly weak in pve.

> >

> > And through all the time, the more skilled part of the fight was always able to facecrush his opponents. And not only by bits but really hard.

> >

> > And then scourge. The learning curve of this class is incredibly steep. You are strong from the very first Moment. But you won't get much better over time. Just a Little more effective. On the other Hand, classes like weaver and firebrand have an incredibly slow learning curve. Super effective if you know how to Play them but only few really can. And they are mostly in top gvg guilds who are doing Video analysation.

> > Therefore the whole Thing degenerated into pirateship with scourges.

> >

> > But nonetheless, for skilled guilds it is still possible to fight and defeat stronger zergs. But all in all it has just become incredibly harder. You have to Play on Point, make no mistake, get the Maximum out of your class.

> > Of course are certain Limits to that but there have always been some and they have not really moved.

> >

> > **WvW has not become less skill intensive. Rather the opposite. It has become more skill intensive.**

> >

> > But in the same mean, People are not keeping up. They either degenerate into scourges or they blame all their failures on scourges. The average pug is extremely uneducated. Does not understand his class. Does not understand fighting. Only understands that scourge is the root of all evil. (scourge is strong and is and has been a powercreep. But it is really not as bad anymore since he was nerfed a lot.)

> >

> > Also, there is a lack of Innovation right now.

> >

>

> Hmm pretty much nailed down the transmute of wvw. though I do disagree in that scourges still are the frontline, the backline and the middle line in wvw.. it used to be the guardian splash runs as you saying firing up stab and charge and then let the dice roll.. now its a 50 scourges playing circles wars all over the ground because they have everything a necro never had.. including mobility, stability, power, toughness, boons, boon strips and insane condi creep.. sure they had a little of some of them before, but now all at once.. so no need for guardians to stab and cleanse ask your friendly scourge platoons to charge up... other than that the only thing that existed differently at the start was tactical awareness, planning for defence/chokes etc.. now we just have zerg charge rinse repeat.. fun for a few charges then it kinda grows old fast.

 

Yep. You are completely right here. Where i was aiming is that i think this is only Happening because 1. scourge is so easy and 2. People have become lazy. This is also applying to tactics. You are still superior if you go for defence/chokes etc. But a lot of People just don't care about it.

[getalifeturd.8139]

This video was the meta in T1 for years;

 

This game has always been non-competitive and promotes bad sportsmanship. Ever since release the best tactic has been staff 1 guardian braindead zergs. The game is not balanced by Arenanet and the players who play this game love it. There is no sportsmanship because the whole game has always been about transfer to the winning server to win. Arenanet encourages this because it makes them money.

 

I wish I never even enjoyed or became addicted to this waste of time because all I see now is a shell of a once fun game. The sustain hammer train meta was probably the most fun fights this game ever had. But of course it was nerfed because all the dpsers couldn't 1 shot a zerg. It's really a shame it took years for Arenanet to finally add healers because they actually make fights last longer than a couple seconds. If only they never abandoned Guild Wars 1 to make this disappointment.

 


 

Here's my build feel free to follow a tag around with it forever like braindead sheep;

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAW5ensAB9ChtCBOCD8DhlECbPgeQboYbgQQZ6aZFAOAA-jVCDABPrEUENEAcRB41830PJAf1N8r6PBr8j+9HEDQRA-w

 

 

[Icy.2186]

IMO it is just proper shit balance.

When it comes to "what is x good at y" in gw2 currently, there is no such thing as mildly better at x or mildly better at y. If a class is good at something it is super fucking good and nothing else can match it.

Why would you not bring a class which aoe clears condi, aoe applies condi, aoe removes enemy boons(corrupts)... passively on top of that the amount of just area on scourge is oppressive on its own. If you want to do aoe fights, why would you not bring the best aoe fighter ( with the boon / condi meta considered ). Why would you also not bring a class that just aoe shits out every single buff in the game or aoe protection / aegis uptimes and so on.

 

Youre preparing for a 20v20 fight and what are your options, big aoe, condi / boon conversions, healing /shielding in an aoe oooor some single target damage melee class?

If youre bringing melees into zerg fights you better have ridiculous communication and team work. Because spamming aoe from a distance is not only easier but safer with less room to fail and on top of that incredibly strong.

 

There is no such thing as "squish-y" or "burst-y" or "tank-y", its SQUISH BURST TANK and so on. Tank classes are nearly immortal in certain situations, tons of blocks, aegises, regens, protections, evades, Invulnerabiles that go on and on. If youre a squish class you will get 1shot. Burst classes just straight up 1hit. There are currently so many onehit builds that i cannot even think of all of them at the top of my head.

 

Difference between squishy and tanky is not something like 5k hp its 1:30 minutes to be killed by 3 players or 10 seconds. Damage differentials are not 10 seconds to kill versus 20 seconds to kill a target. Its 30 seconds versus a oneshot.

 

I believe this is part of the reason why everything feels "stale" and why "every group runs the same thing" is because thats all there is to "strategy" right now.

 

There is no reason to have a well practiced core warrior ( not spell breaker ) over your guildies 5 year old son playing scourge for the first time in his life in a zerg v zerg because just passively scourge is most likely doing more work in a big aoe fight.

If you want to roam and fight solo/1shot people you are probably a thief or a mesmer because those classes are just so much faster than anything else.

 

Sure roaming has high versatility, but thats mostly cause nobody gives a damn about whats best. You want to solo roam as a warrior? Knock yourself out. But to reach peak performance of "roaming" and scouting you would have to play a faster class instead of a class thats kinda locked into every fight it stumbles upon.

 

I play thief so i exclusively roam, and in smaller scale fights there is a larger variety but its mostly because nobody plans for them. Its usually me joining into a fight, someone else joining into a fight for the hell of it and not guild v guild fights, commanders, voice comms and so on. But even in a "smaller" scale fight of about 6 - 7 players, when i see scourge/fb walking up its either an insta win or an insta loss situation. Because they are simply that much better at group fights. With other classes you have more of a toss up when it comes to fighting / kiting / engaging and disengaging but at the end of the day thats mostly decided on who got instakilled first and who has necros/guards to res super safely.

A lot of things in gw2, in my opinion, are slowly more and more boiling down to "if you wanna do a y role youre x class and x class only." Simply because, as silly as it sounds, every class is op. Almost every class is incomparably above alot of others in certain aspects ( some more than others ) and a lot of situations are going to be decided by which side had more builds tuned for that role rather than who played better. Because just classes alone create super uphill battles.

Its very gimmicky and very brainless and quite frankly not all that fun to participate in at times.

 

 

[shiri.4257]

It's 2018 and NA players still believe that their skill level is propelling their server to god tiers :o

Never mind the fact that some servers field 2-3 groups vs 1. Ain't no anet balance patch gonna give us a build to handle the nuthug meta.

 

[Cogbyrn.7283]

If hammer trains felt skill-based, it's probably because they developed as the first blobbed fist strategy while people were still figuring out the game. Back when stability didn't have stacks, no amount of CC could stop the hammer from coming down on you. What skill was involved, exactly, beyond the same sort of "coordinating a semi-large group of humans towards a singular goal" skill that people refuse to see today?

 

I came back to the game after multiple years away, and at a meta level, everything looks and feels exactly the same as it did before. Same sort of roaming, same roaming meta build concepts, same zerg movement, same mass defense of the home borderlands to protect keeps based on scout callouts, same tapping of certain keeps to prevent waypoint usage.

 

Also, I never understood why people made a meme out of playing for ppt. It's like playing chess and mocking your opponent for trying to checkmate your king, or hopping into sPvP and mocking the other players for trying to cap objectives, or jumping into a PvE raid and mocking your teammates for trying to kill bosses. Points are the objective.

 

I understand people just want a playground to run around and fight, and actually layering a larger strategy on top of the system is well beyond what people want to consider when playing WvW. I just always saw the meme as akin to calling the person who just bested you "bad".

 

The instant gratification of discovering and exploring a new game is always going to feel better in the short term than the long-term, deeper enjoyment of a singular game. Is it more exciting to go on one of the first dates with a new person, or to waking up next to the person you've lived with for 2+ years already? Does that mean it's better to just constantly date new people your entire life, always chasing the thrill? The gaming industry caters to that sense of excitement, and now the market is absolutely flooded with all kinds of every type of game. No MMO is really going to be able to compete long-term unless it cultivates a greater sense of community, so people log in to spend time with people and use the game as a medium for hanging out.

 

ANet isn't going to keep things feeling fresh in PvP, most likely. Any massive balance changes, new elites, etc. are just blips on the graph, then the longer a game is out, the faster things settle as meta builds are developed and the community gets a feel for the changes. That isn't really the game's fault.

[coro.3176]

> @"Cogbyrn.7283" said:

> Also, I never understood why people made a meme out of playing for ppt. It's like playing chess and mocking your opponent for trying to checkmate your king, or hopping into sPvP and mocking the other players for trying to cap objectives, or jumping into a PvE raid and mocking your teammates for trying to kill bosses. Points are the objective.

>

 

It's more like playing pick-up soccer (or football for non-Americans) and having one team playing extremely defensive and sitting on a 1-goal lead. Like, sure. That will win you the game.. but we're just playing for fun here. It's not a tournament. There's no prize for first place. Let's just kick the ball around and play a fun game.. yeah?

[Gorani.7205]

I would also back up the "break up & PvE" + "supply" arguments mostly found on page #1 of this thread:

 

"break up" into more smaller tasks thoughts and ideas...

* You might call the old Alpine Krait/Quaggan scenario "too PvE", but it was another mechanic to get a small group of players involved. The quaggan party would go out and "tag" a structure. It would not be possible to switch that chain of events on again, because of the changed map.

* DBL tower event; that was a game engine nightmare, but the idea of controlling a point, which would launch an attack on enemy keeps was not too bad, because it offered an alternative to a normal siege attack and was not easy to counter by sitting inside a fortification. You had to chose an open field battle, which many of the more hard core WvW players (also mentioned in this thread) want.

* The Skritt / Centaur areas in the Alpine BL are wasted potential; A map event for attackers and defenders would force players to be out on the map and not sit inside structures or follow a giant zerg. I would like to link those to the "supply management" improvements (see below)

 

On "supply"

* I miss the upgrade choices of the old supply driven upgrades so much, compared to auto upgrades. I don't miss the gold sink though.

* Supply currently is way too easy to get, use and manage with a big zerg. There should be repercussions for "feeding an army". I would like to see more traps that use supply (e.g. "poisoning dollies", which would reduce the supply carried and limit the depot space for receiving structures) and a trial week when building things on an enemy BLs costs twice as much (not EB, that should stay a very volatile and fast paced map). Fighting on borderlands would be far more strategic than tactical.

 

PS: Individual player skill needs to matter more again too, because seeing 90% Scourges in WvW at the moment is an illustration of an out of balance profession situation that is beyond L2P issues.