How would an easy mode raid work - VG

[Talindra.4958]

> @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > First and foremost, the purpose of this is to give a simplified version of raid bosses to serve as a means to introduce them to, and practice mechanics, to get their feet wet so to speak on mechanically heavy, either as an instance in and of its own with scaled back mechanics, or as suggested, as an extra option in the training golem to duplicate the raid environment in a more controlled setting. Secondly, this aims to ease some of the anxieties certain people feel towards raids, while making it easier for them to meet like minded individuals that they can hopefully progress with.

>

> You're conflating the problem statement with the solution statement.

>

>

> **Problem Statement**

> _Players with lesser gameplay skill/knowledge and/or inability to play in a group either for real life or in game social reasons, do not have access to the story experience, reward structure and gameplay mechanics that the current raids have to offer._

>

> The two questions that follow are

> 1. Is this a problem worth solving?

> 2. What is the best solution to solve this problem?

>

> We should assume that for the purposes of this thread, number 1 is a given yes which leaves 2, what is the best solution to said problem.

>

> **Solutions to lesser gameplay skill/knowledge**

> 1. Create a more forgiving version of the boss with eased up versions of existing mechanics. -this is the solution that everyone in this thread seems to be pursuing.

> 2. Create a mode that leaves the mechanics unchanged but with better hand holding features to guide players through the boss. An implementation of this could be something like the voice of Rytlock calling out every single green and blue circle, warnings when you're standing in front of VG, warnings when seekers are getting close etc.

> 3. A mode where boss health doesn't reset after a wipe so you can continue from where you failed.

> 4. Create a test golem where you can practice any mechanic you wanted.

>

> **Solutions to inability to group**

> 1. This space is outside of the scope of this thread but would involve a better LFG that allow you to search more specifically for the type of player you want to group with (both attitude and skill level).

>

> Everyone in this thread is fixated on coming up with mechanics that are easier and not thinking of other alternatives that could potentially better serve your needs. Solution 2 would be a true training wheels mode while 3 offers victory as an inevitability. I don't want to get into reward structure since that would sidetrack this discussion significantly.

 

I think this solution (2) can actually be a very clever improvement to raid. But I also think the majority of ppl requesting for easy raid is after mechanic change so the raid boss is easy mode like dungeon run. Not unless ppl have interest to learn current raid mechanic they are after a change.

[Henry.5713]

Frankly, I was never exactly inclined towards the idea of easy modes and I doubt that will ever change. Recent experiences with helping a group of almost complete PvE newbies made me realize more than ever how easy the majority of encounters are. All people need is a small helping hand in the form of one experienced support, a few explanations and some hints. That is enough to kill most bosses in a few tries and some even on the first or second.

 

That said, visual cues could be a huge help since quite a few runs almost live and die on the shoulders of the commander calling everything. Something that should not be required but we all know how some players struggle to notice what's going on.

Talking about pop-ups like: "Green just spawned" or "Blues about to teleport you". There could be arrows indicating which route to take with the boss or at least which segment of the platform is going to light up next.

This would remove most of the need to use voice communication (as it is something many dislike) and it would certainly take some pressure off of the commander.

 

There are easy modes and there are a handouts. The watered would Open World VG would be such a handout. Mechanics should not be completely removed or changed so they no longer pose any threat. Making each one of them slightly more forgiving would be enough, if anything. Nothing should be cut or overly reduced. Every reduction adds up immensely in the end.

 

Let's use Greens as an example:

Add a visual message notifying you of it's spawn

Add a bit more time until they explode

Reduced damage taken by 20-30%

Reduced the spawn radius slightly

 

The combination of these changes would make doing greens much easier without changing the fight or the machanic. It would still retain the spirit of the encounter while allow groups to slowly progress towards strategies such as just healing through the Greens at a lower risk of failure.

 

And about scaling down raids depending on the number of players present - just NO.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> Add a visual message notifying you of it's spawn

 

Something like this but in-game?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Agreed, but then the only other way of addressing that, if you *don't* adjust the RGB parts, would be to *remove* the phase 2 and 3 mechanics entirely, and that would remove the "freshness" of having three phases in the first place.

 

So your one problem is that the fight wouldn't be "fresh" anymore. There are lots of raid bosses without actual phases (Slothasor comes to mind) are they "not fresh" and boring by default?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Agreed, but then the only other way of addressing that, if you *don't* adjust the RGB parts, would be to *remove* the phase 2 and 3 mechanics entirely, and that would remove the "freshness" of having three phases in the first place.

>

> So your one problem is that the fight wouldn't be "fresh" anymore. There are lots of raid bosses without actual phases (Slothasor comes to mind) are they "not fresh" and boring by default?

 

I think if the elements are already *in there,* it's a bit of a waste to just cut them out. Anyway, my point here is, say we have an easy mode, and the easy mode is basically nothing more than VG phase 1, and then if you complete that he dies, you get whatever the rewards are, and you are allowed to move toward whatever E.Gorseval is. Well what would the player experience be there? They clear VG phase one, same as in hard mode, and *never* get to experience anything like phase 2 or 3.

 

If they do eventually shift to hard mode, where would they be at? They would be able to clear phase 1, and then still get stuck on phase 2, no particular change. And the easy mode would have provided them no tactics or experience for how to negotiate phase 2 in any way. *If they are trying to train,* then what significant difference would there be between that version of easy mode and just running hard mode VG and /gging after phase 1?

 

Yes, they would get whatever rewards are offered, be allowed to continue to the next encounter, and it would count more as a "win," which are of some psychological benefit, but in terms of practical training, I don't see any real benefit there. There's nothing *new* that they would be learning from it, and the things they would learn, they wouldn't learn any easier, so what's the point beyond "easier loot?"

 

Again, I view maintaining phase 2 and 3, *even if they are in a scaled down version,* as having far more educational value, because if you wanted to train on the encounter you could still have the tank practicing his timing and movement, still have the other players supporting his efforts while handling the other mechanics. Their mistakes would have less consequence, but they could still practice the same maneuvers.

[Talindra.4958]

Yes I do think raid aid tool is a good start.

Not change the current mechanic but introduce in game aid. Eg.. lunchbox's dhuum but for other bosses and add it in the game for players to activate it. Rytlock voice to tell ppl green spawn in 3. Black spawn in 3. Cc phase coming. Split phase. ..And etc

[Draco.9480]

no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I think if the elements are already *in there,* it's a bit of a waste to just cut them out.

 

What about challenge mote elements then? Should they be added to the easy mode too? It's a waste to cut them out.

 

> If they do eventually shift to hard mode, where would they be at? They would be able to clear phase 1, and then still get stuck on phase 2, no particular change.

 

A player that can beat phase 1 well and with a very good time, will have a much easier time in phase 2, just like someone running the normal mode. Only instead of having to /gg when you don't reach the required time, you will progress to the next boss.

 

On the other hand, the educational value of the same encounter, but with dumbed down mechanics, is near zero. If anything, someone that has experience in the easier mode will be a LIABILITY in the higher difficulty. Just look at fractals for an example why, someone that played T1 Fractals has absolutely no better chance at beating T4 than someone going to T4 directly. In fact, beating T1 Fractals leads to bad habits that lead to disaster when running the T4 version. That's because of the much more forgiving nature of T1 fractals that allows players to even solo them. On the other hand, someone that knows how to do the normal Slothasor raid encounter successfully, would adapt much more easily to the hard achievement version as it doesn't change anything in the fight mechanics, it only ADDS a new mechanic.

 

Btw, they wouldn't need to remove entire phases to make this work, because some raid bosses do not have phases in the first place. In other words, making the "easy mode" a reverse challenge mote that instead of adding new things, it removes some things (those that cause the most problems for newer players). A player that finishes the "easy mode" will be able to move on to normal mode, the same way a "normal mode" player can easily move to challenge mote now.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > I think if the elements are already *in there,* it's a bit of a waste to just cut them out.

>

> What about challenge mote elements then? Should they be added to the easy mode too? It's a waste to cut them out.

 

Depends on how tricky it would be to maintain them. I don't see why not if it's a trivial component of the process.

 

>On the other hand, the educational value of the same encounter, but with dumbed down mechanics, is near zero. If anything, someone that has experience in the easier mode will be a LIABILITY in the higher difficulty. Just look at fractals for an example why, someone that played T1 Fractals has absolutely no better chance at beating T4 than someone going to T4 directly. In fact, beating T1 Fractals leads to bad habits that lead to disaster when running the T4 version. That's because of the much more forgiving nature of T1 fractals that allows players to even solo them.

 

Again though, it depends on *how* they are using the encounter. If a player is playing T1 fractals with the expectation of playing T4, knowing what that would require and going through motions that may not strictly be necessary, then he should not acquire bad habits. If he's only playing easy mode for what it is, then it does not need to serve a training function in the first place, it's just for fun.

 

Either way, presenting the complete experience would result in a more engaging experience for the player than only presenting 1/3 of it, and I'm still not seeing any particular value of having an easy mode that would be functionally identical to just playing the first 1/3 of the encounter.

 

>Btw, they wouldn't need to remove entire phases to make this work, because some raid bosses do not have phases in the first place. In other words, making the "easy mode" a reverse challenge mote that instead of adding new things, it removes some things (those that cause the most problems for newer players). A player that finishes the "easy mode" will be able to move on to normal mode, the same way a "normal mode" player can easily move to challenge mote now.

 

That isn't true either though, according to your argument, because if you remove a mechanic, and the player is not deliberately considering that missing mechanic, then he would build his playstyle around the mechanic not being there, and if it were added in again, he would have to completely change his play style to account for that.

 

Basically you're trying to split hairs where no such split exists. You're saying that it's better to remove some mechanics entirely, than to have them in while allowing players the *choice* of mostly ignoring them. In your case they would have no way to test against those mechanics at all. In my way they would have the choice, and could choose to use that opportunity how they see fit. In either case, they would have the potential to develop bad habits, *unless* they deliberately *choose* to work with the good habits in mind, but in your offering they wouldn't even have the proper tools to attempt it even if they wanted to.

[maddoctor.2738]

> Again though, it depends on *how* they are using the encounter. If a player is playing T1 fractals with the expectation of playing T4, knowing what that would require and going through motions that may not strictly be necessary, then he should not acquire bad habits. If he's only playing easy mode for what it is, then it does not need to serve a training function in the first place, it's just for fun.

 

I doubt there is enough players in the game that even fit this definition. If you want to train for T4, you will run T4, there is no need to run T1 to train for T4. Now you are going to say that are indeed lots of players like this but since we don't have any data or proof I won't change my opinion on this. Making a new version of Raids for the chance that *some* people will use it for training is total a waste of resources.

 

> That isn't true either though, according to your argument, because if you remove a mechanic, and the player is not deliberately considering that missing mechanic, then he would build his playstyle around the mechanic not being there, and if it were added in again, he would have to completely change his play style to account for that.

 

The "added" mechanics of phases apply only to parts of the fight while the rest of it is identical. While some members of the group do indeed have to adapt, the rest of the group uses the same tactics, same builds, same mechanics regardless if it's normal of challenge mode. What you learned in normal mode isn't invalidated in challenge mode, unlike fractals were what you learn in T1 is hardly relevant in T4 anymore.

 

And now that I think about it, this applies to every current Raid boss. For example, playing a pure DPS role on Sabetha requires no more skill or experience than playing your average Fractal or Dungeon. You just follow your damage rotation and follow a tag around when there is a flame wall. That doesn't require much skill right? Not hard at all for the average Joe or for even the most casual of players. Perhaps the ideal solution would be to split the LFG raid entries in slots, instead of splitting them in tank/dps/healer like in other games, some will be "hard", others "normal" and the rest will be labeled as "easy", you can fill the easy ones with anyone that comes and only take extra care for the other "harder" slots.

[Rhiannon.1726]

How could an easy mode VG look like?

 

Like Cairn:

You have the green circles. They are easier as they don’t kill you and don’t harm the others.

You have the red damage circles which are similar to the seekers. They can more easily be controlled.

You have the port fields. They aren’t easier as the VG ones, but therefore you don’t have the cc phase.

You should dodge one attack but therefore you don’t need a tank.

You also don’t have an enrage timer (that may cause a wipe).

 

VG easy mode -> Cairn.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Draco.9480" said:

> no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place.

 

Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work.

 

[Linken.6345]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > Going for the Mistforged Triumphant armor?

> > >

> > > Yup, 441st rank in WvW, so far, since I need to be something like rank 2000, I figure that I have time, as such I am gonna to try for War Bringer First.

> > >

> > > Quite frankly, it's pretty bad, the balance issues in WvW are an atrocity, and the cheaters, are just a deplorable addition, but here I am, just plugging along, some weeks I even get to gold, most I only get to silver.

> > >

> > > Truth be told.. doing this has got me looking for another game to play.. I can say.. when CF launches.. this game will be a memory.

> > >

> > > But.. None the less, I really enjoy this discussion, the idea of larger rings, slower moving obstacles, and the like.. could really help for a training mode. Not that I would do it.. but.. hey.. there are many that might.

> >

> > Mistforged is pretty bad kitten especially with the Sublime animation. I also like the fact that the tentacles are dyeable.

>

> I don't think I would use the Armor Skin itself tho, My Guard has not changed his look in the 4 years I have been playing.. I don't think a purple border will change that (TA/Cultural Armor on a Sylvari just looks super sweet).. but.. I still want the Armor, as it is BiS. I am doing this for the same reasons why I am still doing HoT, for the Axe, if not for that Axe, I would have left HoT years ago and never looked back.

>

> But.. because of that Axe, and needing to master all the Mastery Lines.. I am still there.. doing stuff.. even helping guild mates get map completion, but I hate HoT.. I hate doing WvW for the Armor MORE.. but there is a respectable hate for HoT as well.

>

> Pity they could not make a Legendary Weapon Set for PoF.. but.. their work does seem to be lacking and slacking. So.. I doubt they will ever put in the extra effort to expand upon raid difficulties, but, I like the ideas.. some of the points put out here show some real ingenuity and passion. Love that!

 

Good news then you dont have to go for the 2k armor the tier below can also be turn in to legenday.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > First and foremost, the purpose of this is to give a simplified version of raid bosses to serve as a means to introduce them to, and practice mechanics, to get their feet wet so to speak on mechanically heavy, either as an instance in and of its own with scaled back mechanics, or as suggested, as an extra option in the training golem to duplicate the raid environment in a more controlled setting. Secondly, this aims to ease some of the anxieties certain people feel towards raids, while making it easier for them to meet like minded individuals that they can hopefully progress with.

>

> You're conflating the problem statement with the solution statement.

>

>

> **Problem Statement**

> _Players with lesser gameplay skill/knowledge and/or inability to play in a group either for real life or in game social reasons, do not have access to the story experience, reward structure and gameplay mechanics that the current raids have to offer._

>

> The two questions that follow are

> 1. Is this a problem worth solving?

> 2. What is the best solution to solve this problem?

>

> We should assume that for the purposes of this thread, number 1 is a given yes which leaves 2, what is the best solution to said problem.

>

> **Solutions to lesser gameplay skill/knowledge**

> 1. Create a more forgiving version of the boss with eased up versions of existing mechanics. -this is the solution that everyone in this thread seems to be pursuing.

 

> 2. Create a mode that leaves the mechanics unchanged but with better hand holding features to guide players through the boss. An implementation of this could be something like the voice of Rytlock calling out every single green and blue circle, warnings when you're standing in front of VG, warnings when seekers are getting close etc.

 

I like this idea. A call to when mechanics happen is something that will make it easier to trainers. Only problem I can see with this is the amount of noise already in the game might drown it out. It was a suggestion on page 1 to increase the volume of mechanics so it doesn't get drowned out by skill noises (especially chrono wells).

 

> 3. A mode where boss health doesn't reset after a wipe so you can continue from where you failed.

 

This is a good one too. Maybe we can use this imstead if the mistlock suggestion?

 

> 4. Create a test golem where you can practice any mechanic you wanted.

 

This was suggested by someone in page 1 I believe, and it was something I agreed with. I even suggested puttin in an achievement to it that you could show instead if li or the eternal title,which you can fake and buy respectively, to denote your familiarity with the mechanics of the fight.

 

> **Solutions to inability to group**

> 1. This space is outside of the scope of this thread but would involve a better LFG that allow you to search more specifically for the type of player you want to group with (both attitude and skill level).

>

> Everyone in this thread is fixated on coming up with mechanics that are easier and not thinking of other alternatives that could potentially better serve your needs. Solution 2 would be a true training wheels mode while 3 offers victory as an inevitability. I don't want to get into reward structure since that would sidetrack this discussion significantly.

 

Agreed. One way to make vg easjer is to improve the skill level of pugs, would you agree?

 

 

[Sephylon.4938]

This maaay be a bit far off, but what if, and bear me out, instead of reworking vg, we rework the pre event that leads to it? Currently I find that the preevent, which is supposed to teach the mechanic, ends far too soon. Additionally, it is usually done while waiting for the lfg to fill even in training runs (I've done this myself). What if instead of 3 guardians lined up, we have to walk to the arena and see the pylons powering the barrier. As we try to disable the pylon, unstable energy is released and attacks us in the form of the guardian with a colour matching the pylon. If the group only deactivates 1 pylon, the 1/3 lava floor will be active. 2/3 if 2 were deactivated, and add the bullet hell if all 3 were deactivated at once. We could also relocate the respawn point to be under glenna, or right before the arena. Move the ley rift there or 1 of the pact members and give it an option to reset the pylons as long as vg hasn't heen summoned or killed. Thoughts on this?

[Dzjudz.9142]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > Going for the Mistforged Triumphant armor?

> > >

> > > Yup, 441st rank in WvW, so far, since I need to be something like rank 2000, I figure that I have time, as such I am gonna to try for War Bringer First.

> > >

> > > Quite frankly, it's pretty bad, the balance issues in WvW are an atrocity, and the cheaters, are just a deplorable addition, but here I am, just plugging along, some weeks I even get to gold, most I only get to silver.

> > >

> > > Truth be told.. doing this has got me looking for another game to play.. I can say.. when CF launches.. this game will be a memory.

> > >

> > > But.. None the less, I really enjoy this discussion, the idea of larger rings, slower moving obstacles, and the like.. could really help for a training mode. Not that I would do it.. but.. hey.. there are many that might.

> >

> > Mistforged is pretty bad kitten especially with the Sublime animation. I also like the fact that the tentacles are dyeable.

>

> I don't think I would use the Armor Skin itself tho, My Guard has not changed his look in the 4 years I have been playing.. I don't think a purple border will change that (TA/Cultural Armor on a Sylvari just looks super sweet).. but.. I still want the Armor, as it is BiS. I am doing this for the same reasons why I am still doing HoT, for the Axe, if not for that Axe, I would have left HoT years ago and never looked back.

 

If all you want is legendary wvw armor and don't care about the tentacle skin, you realise you don't need to be rank 2000 to make it right? You just need ascended triumphant hero's armor.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode

> > > Greens are now less frequent

> > > Greens have a wider radius in easy mode

> > > Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode

> > > Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode

> > > Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic

> > > Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random)

> >

> > Your proposed changes, especially the lowered frequency and raid-wide damage, make greens irrelevant. The damage pressure is already low enough to be simply outhealed by good healers. Lowering it further on two separate accounts will make any semi-adequate healer able to do it. Especially for healers like Tempest which don't even have to target their heals.

> >

> > Your attempt to keep them relevant by offering boons can only have two outcomes.

> > Either the boons will be strong enough to make them worthwhile - in which case you want each and everyone of your team in the green - or the boons aren't strong enough, in which case nobody will bother doing them.

> >

> > The damage transferred from the raid-wide to the boss attacks makes the tank role - which is already the key role of this encounter and a leading reason for wipes in training and low-experience runs - even more important. The added pressure wouldn't make tanking any easier, so people will still fail.

> >

> > These are far too powerful, they'd break the existing balance. And if you intend them for the easy mode only, you might as well just use the existing ones.

> >

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate

> > > Blues now take longer to detonate

> > > Blues are now less frequent

> > > Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people

> > > Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises

> >

> > The major problem with the blues is the visibility, making them smaller doesn't help. People will just keep ignoring them, they'll only get away with that more often. Reducing the frequency and removing the teleport add further incentives to ignore the mechanic. See above for outhealing.

> >

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > Red orbs have reduced radius

> > > Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic

> >

> > Same as above - you're just creating incentives for the mechanic to be ignored.

> >

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > Bullet hell removed from encounter

> > > number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics

> > >

> > > Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar

> >

> > There are two sides here.

> > If the group has high enough damage, this also creates an incentive to ignore the mechanic. The reduced pressure makes it ideal to just focus on dpsing the stationary boss while not having to worry about any of the fight mechanics. Again, the outheal trivializes the mechanic.

> > If the group doesn't have that, the platform damage will eventually force you to move, so you'd likely want to actually playing the mechanic. Thus, lowered damage per bullet and reduced defiance bar could work as making this particular attack easier.

> >

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > Raid version of Mist Potions.

> > > ...

> > > Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned.

> >

> > These are far too powerful and would break the existing balance.

>

> Thank you for the response,I noticed that there were some mechanics that you did not mention, for instance trading in the teleports of blues for more damage, what are your thoughts on this? Additionally, some of the newer suggestions I've placed seems to be missing, may I ask for your opinions on those should you have the time for them? I also forgot to mention the proposals for the floors in my original post, thank you for the reminder.

 

Would be nice if you update your post to keep it up to day, otherwise "newer suggestion" tend to get missed.

 

As for the blues. I don't really like the overall vibe. Shrinking the size and changing the effect to damage only makes it a kind of damage ticking on you for no apparent reason. The readability of the attack already isn't that great, at least when you get ported you know what happened. If you just took some damage it could be for any number of reasons.

[Rain.7543]

Can you stop already with all this easy mode raids threads? One would think that anet clearly stating they wont be changing the way raids function would put a stop to this kind of threads, but no. For those that can't get their heads around why that is here it goes. Raids are a niche content and Anet have a really small team which is devotated to designing raids. Thus resources are better spend in actually making new raids -- like the people who actually raid wish, instead of devoting those resources into making different raid modes.

 

Now onto the topic of this current, perhaps number 7174717417 thread about making easier mode raids. It wont happen, and if it DID happen it will accomplish nothing, as we have a very good base to get the proof from - the fractals. You see all the time people who have gone through the whole loop from low-tier to high tier fractals, yet when they get into level 100 fractals and cm's they are simply bad at it, because they have gotten so used to face roll every mechanic into the low-tiers and haven't even think about -actually- learning it. This will be exactly what happens if we had easier mode raids - thus imo it's pointless and it's a waste of already pretty thin resources, because the game has never been focused entirely on raids, unlike other MMO's like Wow for instance.

 

Raids are fine, as they are. If you want to get your feet wet into raids -- gather a group of 10 people who are willing to put the time and effort into learning them and LEARN them. Or don't - and move on already.

[Rain.7543]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place.

>

> Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work.

>

 

Many, many, many of the people who raid constantly and constantly get their weekly raid clears are adults with families, jobs, kids, etc etc. You really should come with more plausible excuse and you really should stop taking everything so literally. You aren't expected to make the game a second job, if you want to succeed in raiding. There is a difference between putting effort into it and making it your second job. Again, find a better excuse. Even better - put that effort into an actually raiding then posting all the time into the forums about it.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Rain.7543" said:

> Raids are fine, as they are. If you want to get your feet wet into raids -- gather a group of 10 people who are willing to put the time and effort into learning them and LEARN them. Or don't - and move on already.

 

Thats interesting, why do you say that?

[Talindra.4958]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place.

>

> Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work.

>

 

I hv a family, two young children and a full time work too.. I don't feel like I work for the game.. eg last night I log in and do daily only then log out. Only Monday I do raid. I'm sure if you join a raid guild you can organise once a week to play casually with a group. I used to organise raid training for ppl in my guild to play only one hour a week.. helped many to hv a kick start in raid.. but I stop that after a while .. you can try to make a new group to start now.. one hour a week training.. the day the group gets vg down you feel really amazing. When I had my first vg I scream in joy so loud.. it was after many tries in the early days.

I'm happy to join any training group to help out. Just give me a bell.

[Rain.7543]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Rain.7543" said:

> > Raids are fine, as they are. If you want to get your feet wet into raids -- gather a group of 10 people who are willing to put the time and effort into learning them and LEARN them. Or don't - and move on already.

>

> Thats interesting, why do you say that?

 

Because this is how everyone learned them and it's your best shot if you are actually interested into learning them. Also sorry to be blunt here, but this threads are completely pointless. Anet stated long ago they will neither look into, neither have any future plans in changing how raids work. So to repeat myself - either find a group with a chill people who are really willing to learn -- you can either try to start your own group or join training guilds and communities like RTI or the Crossroad Inn raiding community on EU. If you are not willing to put the effort into either of those things then you simply aren't really serious about getting into raiding, but you just want the content converted to casual levels, so you can complete it and get the rewards easily imo. Sorry, but this ain't gonna happen, as stated already by many and most of all by Anet themselves.

[Sephylon.4938]

updated front page with some new ideas.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Rain.7543" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Rain.7543" said:

> > > Raids are fine, as they are. If you want to get your feet wet into raids -- gather a group of 10 people who are willing to put the time and effort into learning them and LEARN them. Or don't - and move on already.

> >

> > Thats interesting, why do you say that?

>

> Because this is how everyone learned them and it's your best shot if you are actually interested into learning them. Also sorry to be blunt here, but this threads are completely pointless. Anet stated long ago they will neither look into, neither have any future plans in changing how raids work. So to repeat myself - either find a group with a chill people who are really willing to learn -- you can either try to start your own group or join training guilds and communities like RTI or the Crossroad Inn raiding community on EU. If you are not willing to put the effort into either of those things then you simply aren't really serious about getting into raiding, but you just want the content converted to casual levels, so you can complete it and get the rewards easily imo. Sorry, but this ain't gonna happen, as stated already by many and most of all by Anet themselves.

 

So those that learn a different way should have no alternatives to it then?

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place.

> >

> > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work.

> >

>

> I hv a family, two young children and a full time work too.. I don't feel like I work for the game.. eg last night I log in and do daily only then log out. Only Monday I do raid. I'm sure if you join a raid guild you can organise once a week to play casually with a group. I used to organise raid training for ppl in my guild to play only one hour a week.. helped many to hv a kick start in raid.. but I stop that after a while .. you can try to make a new group to start now.. one hour a week training.. the day the group gets vg down you feel really amazing. When I had my first vg I scream in joy so loud.. it was after many tries in the early days.

> I'm happy to join any training group to help out. Just give me a bell.

 

Thanks for the offer, maybe someone else can take you up on it.. I'm done with this topic and raids in general.