How would an easy mode raid work - VG

[Sykper.6583]

I might have skimmed over this accidently, I'll provide feedback on top of the suggestions here.

 

If I had to make a STRICTLY easier mode of this, coming from someone who still wants the people to learn the normal version and actually get true raid rewards there hypothetically if they ever decided to do so.

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Tl:DR

>

> Add more options to the training golem to either spawn mechanics of bosses, or to spawn a raid boss by warping the group into a training instance where they can freely practice a predetermined set of mechanic(s).

> Raid version of Mist Potions.

> Ensure that mechanics can not overlap (blues can not spawn on a location that green has spawned)

> Scaling mechanics based on present numbers

 

I was actually in favor of something like the Training Golem practicing mechanics, for guilds who are into Raiding and have enough kills under their belt. A sort of boss they can put into the training arena (hologram) that doesn't directly do damage but causes something like a 'mistake' counter as you attempt to kill it. This encourages Guild Hall building for Raiding guilds and it can incorporate Fractal mechanics as well though I believe the earlier tiers do enough of that already. Aka, let Raid Experienced guilds if they turn in enough Trophy tokens, be able to spawn a hologram of the boss that allows for training.

 

The other suggestions are kind of a miss for me, the DPS check for the encounters isn't high enough that warrants damage potions, and many mechanics that do wipe groups will end you at any % of health. Overlapping mechanics doesn't really make much sense for me, I think it sounds like a lot of programming work in the same vein that SCALING the encounter would be. Both are suggestions I don't see practical applications for.

 

> Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode

This can't be on too much of a delay, add 1-2 more seconds so that when they go into Normal mode when they wipe a few times they get the timing down quickly.

> Greens are now less frequent

Same thing.

> Greens have a wider radius in easy mode

Eh I'll say no, only because this could negatively impact the visual queue for what the raiders expect the size of the green circle to be. A delay should be good enough.

> Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode

That would be too much and defeat half the purpose of the green circle mechanics.

> Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode

Without the normal mode indicating the 'proper' number before the circle is safe, there would be guesswork for a fresh group in normal. So I must say no here as well.

> Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic

I have a BETTER solution, have the green do a debuff if failed that hits everyone. If the VERY next green is failed again, the raid takes the Normal Version of damage. If they succeed the next one though, the debuff is removed from everyone. This gives them the sense of danger if they mess up once, but can recover if they catch the next one. That way, when they transition to Normal and see they don't have this 'debuff' buffer, PRESTO CHANGO THEY CAN DO THE MECHANIC!

> Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random)

Sure, I'm ok with this.

>

> Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate

The Blues do a bit of damage already and if the blues are stacked someone gets downed. So no dice here.

> Blues now take longer to detonate

Yes.

> Blues are now less frequent

No, but they start happening after the 1st split to compensate.

> Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people

They are already pretty small. No.

> Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises

This is a QoL and I would love to see it implemented in the Normal Encounter.

 

> Red orbs have reduced radius

Nope.

> Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic

Just reduce their damage.

> Marker to visually signal who is the tank

That's a nice QoL and it would help groups who miscommunicate on what their builds are pre-pull. Because it's always nice accidently having a Druid tank.

> Marker to visually signal who is being hunted by seekers

Easy Mode only.

> Bullet hell removed from encounter

I'm ok with this.

> number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics

>

> Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar

Certainly.

>

> Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned.

Nope. Let's not permanently make raids easier.

>

> Updates:

> Improve pre event of vg to be more reflective of the fight (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/495656#Comment_495656)

> Create npc shout outs for mechanics (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/495109#Comment_495109, https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/profile/comments/41345/Shikaru.7618)

> Create check points on certain hp % that the group will restart on should they wipe (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/profile/comments/41345/Shikaru.7618)

>

First 2 here are ok, I would prefer the entire encounter to be done at once, even in Easy Mode.

 

[Rain.7543]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Rain.7543" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > @"Rain.7543" said:

> > > > Raids are fine, as they are. If you want to get your feet wet into raids -- gather a group of 10 people who are willing to put the time and effort into learning them and LEARN them. Or don't - and move on already.

> > >

> > > Thats interesting, why do you say that?

> >

> > Because this is how everyone learned them and it's your best shot if you are actually interested into learning them. Also sorry to be blunt here, but this threads are completely pointless. Anet stated long ago they will neither look into, neither have any future plans in changing how raids work. So to repeat myself - either find a group with a chill people who are really willing to learn -- you can either try to start your own group or join training guilds and communities like RTI or the Crossroad Inn raiding community on EU. If you are not willing to put the effort into either of those things then you simply aren't really serious about getting into raiding, but you just want the content converted to casual levels, so you can complete it and get the rewards easily imo. Sorry, but this ain't gonna happen, as stated already by many and most of all by Anet themselves.

>

> So those that learn a different way should have no alternatives to it then?

 

What other ways are there to learn? If you expect you will learn by going into raids with a random groups - sorry, but you are in for a rude awakening. You have much more better chance if you actually put yourself out there and try to reach to training groups and guilds. As for the suggestions you have in your first post, let me quote them here and offer a brief explanation of each and every one and why they wouldn't work at all and neither would any easy mode raids for that matter imo.

 

Raid version of Mist Potions.

Ensure that mechanics can not overlap (blues can not spawn on a location that green has spawned) - Not sure if you understand how those two mechanics work to begin with. Blue cannot spawn on a green, unless the green spawn is VERY close to VG itself, which happens so very rarely. Otherwise they spawn under him and far away from green circle.

 

Scaling mechanics based on present numbers - What would that accomplish, rather then making the boss encounter even more casual? What purpose it will serve in training people for the real encounter again, how it will force people to minmax their dps and their mechanic handling for the real encounter. They will be simply not prepared for the REAL thing, if they get too comfortable with scaled mechanics.

 

Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode - Again what purpose will this serve? People will learn that the green detonate into a certain time frame in easy mode and then wipe out to the first green in normal mode, because it detonated a lot faster. Useless.

 

Greens are now less frequent - Again this will serve no function into actually learning the boss and keep the group on their toes, but rather it will allow them to relax themselves and throw them into chaos when they realise the normal mode encounter function differently and occurs more frequently. They will simply not be prepared to handle it properly.

 

Greens have a wider radius in easy mode - This will actually have a negative effect on the group, as it will not force people to adapt to the mechanic properly, by having a proper map awareness and the sense of using their movement based skills properly in the proper time frame.

 

Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode - Very bad suggestion. If people get used to a fixed spawn location in easy mode, they will be absolutely unprepared and thrown into a chaos when they are confronted with a random spawns in normal mode.

 

Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode - Again bad suggestion. Once more something that will not serve a real learning purpose, but will actually have a negative effect on the group when they realise in normal mode they will need 1 or 2 more people in the green.

 

Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic - This will serve absolutely no purpose then putting more pressure on your tank.

 

Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random) - Absolutely useless suggestion imo. There is already a number of boons the group is expected to cover. If you cannot cover those - the game handling you free ones won't make you any better into covering those.

 

Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate - Another bad suggestion, which will have a negative effect on you actually learning. If the damage is increased the group can just over heal the damage and people will get used into staying over the blues. This will lead into people getting teleported all over the place into a normal mode, as they haven't properly learned to deal with the mechanic and just face rolled it.

 

Blues now take longer to detonate

Blues are now less frequent

Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people

Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises - Those can be symmarized by being pretty useless, where actual learning is considered. Any change into those mechanics will lead to people being not prepared to properly deal with it into normal mode.

 

Red orbs have reduced radius

Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic - Again bad suggestion. Reduced radius on the seekers will accomplish nothing, as ideally want your druids to push them away or your mesmer to pull them away from the group. The reduced radius will make a very little difference in that if any. Reduced damage, which then is transfered to the boss will -again- put more pressure on your tank and VG auto attacks are one of the most powerful by any raid boss atm already.

 

Marker to visually signal who is the tank - Markers exist, as a feature already. You don't need any special feature for that. Just put an arrow or a circle over your tank. (Or whatever other mark you fancy).

 

Marker to visually signal who is being hunted by seekers - Useless suggestion. During raid you want your squad stacked, as tightly as possible and the seekers are drawn towards your group, as a whole. Don't expect that one person will be able to kite them away - they need to be dealt with properly eg. pushed away by your druids.

Bullet hell removed from encounter

number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics

 

Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar

Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned.

 

Again, those last suggestions are really bad, or straight out useless. I dont see ANY suggestion which will help people in ACTUALLY learning properly the boss for the real encounter. It's a suggestion aimed at making the encounter more casual and nothing else. I am sorry, but I don't see anything here that suggest that you are actually aiming to learn, rather then dumb down raids to a more casual levels.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Rain.7543" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Rain.7543" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > @"Rain.7543" said:

> > > > > Raids are fine, as they are. If you want to get your feet wet into raids -- gather a group of 10 people who are willing to put the time and effort into learning them and LEARN them. Or don't - and move on already.

> > > >

> > > > Thats interesting, why do you say that?

> > >

> > > Because this is how everyone learned them and it's your best shot if you are actually interested into learning them. Also sorry to be blunt here, but this threads are completely pointless. Anet stated long ago they will neither look into, neither have any future plans in changing how raids work. So to repeat myself - either find a group with a chill people who are really willing to learn -- you can either try to start your own group or join training guilds and communities like RTI or the Crossroad Inn raiding community on EU. If you are not willing to put the effort into either of those things then you simply aren't really serious about getting into raiding, but you just want the content converted to casual levels, so you can complete it and get the rewards easily imo. Sorry, but this ain't gonna happen, as stated already by many and most of all by Anet themselves.

> >

> > So those that learn a different way should have no alternatives to it then?

>

> What other ways are there to learn? If you expect you will learn by going into raids with a random groups - sorry, but you are in for a rude awakening. You have much more better chance if you actually put yourself out there and try to reach to training groups and guilds. As for the suggestions you have in your first post, let me quote them here and offer a brief explanation of each and every one and why they wouldn't work at all and neither would any easy mode raids for that matter imo.

>

> Raid version of Mist Potions.

> Ensure that mechanics can not overlap (blues can not spawn on a location that green has spawned) - Not sure if you understand how those two mechanics work to begin with. Blue cannot spawn on a green, unless the green spawn is VERY close to VG itself, which happens so very rarely. Otherwise they spawn under him and far away from green circle.

 

Happens more often than not in my experience, especially with an inexperienced tank.

 

> Scaling mechanics based on present numbers - What would that accomplish, rather then making the boss encounter even more casual? What purpose it will serve in training people for the real encounter again, how it will force people to minmax their dps and their mechanic handling for the real encounter. They will be simply not prepared for the REAL thing, if they get too comfortable with scaled mechanics.

>

> Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode - Again what purpose will this serve? People will learn that the green detonate into a certain time frame in easy mode and then wipe out to the first green in normal mode, because it detonated a lot faster. Useless.

 

Would they not be able to translate the skill gained from this into the normal time?

 

> Greens are now less frequent - Again this will serve no function into actually learning the boss and keep the group on their toes, but rather it will allow them to relax themselves and throw them into chaos when they realize the normal mode encounter function differently and occurs more frequently. They will simply not be prepared to handle it properly.

 

I admit it's a crutch, my hope was that they would be able to translate the experience they would gain from this into normal mode. I'm open to better solutions for this if you have any.

 

> Greens have a wider radius in easy mode - This will actually have a negative effect on the group, as it will not force people to adapt to the mechanic properly, by having a proper map awareness and the sense of using their movement based skills properly in the proper time frame.

 

Same point as above, any contribution or criticisms are appreciated.

 

> Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode - Very bad suggestion. If people get used to a fixed spawn location in easy mode, they will be absolutely unprepared and thrown into a chaos when they are confronted with a random spawns in normal mode.

 

Fair point, the intent on this suggestion was to train people that they need to keep an eye out for this mechanic. How would you design a mechanic with this goal in mind then?

 

> Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode - Again bad suggestion. Once more something that will not serve a real learning purpose, but will actually have a negative effect on the group when they realize in normal mode they will need 1 or 2 more people in the green.

 

True, but they have at least realized that it needs to be done, which is a step forward would it not?

 

> Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic - This will serve absolutely no purpose then putting more pressure on your tank.

 

Fair point

 

> Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random) - Absolutely useless suggestion imo. There is already a number of boons the group is expected to cover. If you cannot cover those - the game handling you free ones won't make you any better into covering those.

 

Fair point

 

> Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate - Another bad suggestion, which will have a negative effect on you actually learning. If the damage is increased the group can just over heal the damage and people will get used into staying over the blues. This will lead into people getting teleported all over the place into a normal mode, as they haven't properly learned to deal with the mechanic and just face rolled it.

>

> Blues now take longer to detonate

> Blues are now less frequent

> Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people

> Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises - Those can be summarized by being pretty useless, where actual learning is considered. Any change into those mechanics will lead to people being not prepared to properly deal with it into normal mode.

 

What would you use as a better way to teach this mechanic then?

 

> Red orbs have reduced radius

> Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic - Again bad suggestion. Reduced radius on the seekers will accomplish nothing, as ideally want your druids to push them away or your mesmer to pull them away from the group. The reduced radius will make a very little difference in that if any. Reduced damage, which then is transfered to the boss will -again- put more pressure on your tank and VG auto attacks are one of the most powerful by any raid boss atm already.

 

How then would you encourage the learning of how to control seekers?

 

> Marker to visually signal who is the tank - Markers exist, as a feature already. You don't need any special feature for that. Just put an arrow or a circle over your tank. (Or whatever other mark you fancy).

 

More of a qol, less buttons to press and all, wouldn't you say so?

 

> Marker to visually signal who is being hunted by seekers - Useless suggestion. During raid you want your squad stacked, as tightly as possible and the seekers are drawn towards your group, as a whole. Don't expect that one person will be able to kite them away - they need to be dealt with properly eg. pushed away by your druids.

> Bullet hell removed from encounter

> number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics

>

> Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar

> Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned.

>

> Again, those last suggestions are really bad, or straight out useless. I dont see ANY suggestion which will help people in ACTUALLY learning properly the boss for the real encounter. It's a suggestion aimed at making the encounter more casual and nothing else. I am sorry, but I don't see anything here that suggest that you are actually aiming to learn, rather then dumb down raids to a more casual levels.

 

What of the newer ones?

 

edit, added the newer ones

 

Add more options to the training golem to either spawn mechanics of bosses, or to spawn a raid boss by warping the group into a training instance where they can freely practice a predetermined set of mechanic(s).

Improve pre event of vg to be more reflective of the fight (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/495656#Comment_495656)

Create npc shout outs for mechanics (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/495109#Comment_495109, https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/profile/comments/41345/Shikaru.7618)

Create check points on certain hp % that the group will restart on should they wipe (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/profile/comments/41345/Shikaru.7618)

[Sephylon.4938]

> > Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people

> They are already pretty small. No.

 

This one I want to address as there seems to be some miscommunication here. I am not asking to reduce the radius of the blues, rather to reduce the distance that they teleport people.

[Sykper.6583]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people

> > They are already pretty small. No.

>

> This one I want to address as there seems to be some miscommunication here. I am not asking to reduce the radius of the blues, rather to reduce the distance that they teleport people.

 

Oh ok that's a bit better.

 

I think that's "fair" as it still punishes melee for the mistake.

[Rain.7543]

In order to reduce the huge posts filled up with quotes i will give you a brief tdl;r here: I would encourage people to go into the actual raids, as they exist now and learn. No kind of dumb down mechanics, reduced damage etc will actually prepare people to the level they need to be to deal with the current difficulty of raids. They need to set their gear properly, learn their rotation, develop a map awareness and be ready to take constructive critism on their performance. They need to learn by doing the actual thing - doing a more casual, relaxed variation of it will -not- prepare them for the real dificulty ahead. We have a very good example of that and that being the fractals. There is a lot of people that goes through the whole loop from low tier to high tier fractals without even knowing most of the mechanics and how to deal with them properly because they have been face tanking them into the lower tiers. We don't need that and we won't have that in raids. Literally the whole raid community is against that, because it will take away from the developing of new raids -- something which already comes at a lower pace as it is.

 

Raids were never designed, as stated by Anet with different tiers in mind - thus it will take a HUGE amount of effort on the raid development team to implement something like this and imo it's not worth it, because it will not change a thing. Even if they were to implement something like this there will be STILL some that will find it too hard for them.

 

This is why I haven't given any suggestions, because I don't believe implementing easier mode for raids is how people should learn, neither do I believe people will actually learn no matter how much and in a what way you change mechanics, until they step foot into the actual thing and go through the actual difficulty.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Rain.7543" said:

> In order to reduce the huge posts filled up with quotes i will give you a brief tdl;r here: I would encourage people to go into the actual raids, as they exist now and learn. No kind of dumb down mechanics, reduced damage etc will actually prepare people to the level they need to be to deal with the current difficulty of raids. They need to set their gear properly, learn their rotation, develop a map awareness and be ready to take constructive critism on their performance. They need to learn by doing the actual thing - doing a more casual, relaxed variation of it will -not- prepare them for the real dificulty ahead. We have a very good example of that and that being the fractals. There is a lot of people that goes through the whole loop from low tier to high tier fractals without even knowing most of the mechanics and how to deal with them properly because they have been face tanking them into the lower tiers. We don't need that and we won't have that in raids. Literally the whole raid community is against that, because it will take away from the developing of new raids -- something which already comes at a lower pace as it is.

>

> Raids were never designed, as stated by Anet with different tiers in mind - thus it will take a HUGE amount of effort on the raid development team to implement something like this and imo it's not worth it, because it will not change a thing. Even if they were to implement something like this there will be STILL some that will find it too hard for them.

>

> This is why I haven't given any suggestions, because I don't believe implementing easier mode for raids is how people should learn, neither do I believe people will actually learn no matter how much and in a what way you change mechanics, until they step foot into the actual thing and go through the actual difficulty.

 

if that's how you feel, I understand. Thank you though for taking time to share your thoughts and contributing to the discussion :)

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>I doubt there is enough players in the game that even fit this definition. If you want to train for T4, you will run T4, there is no need to run T1 to train for T4.

 

Ok, if that's the case then we don't need the easy raids to function in a training capacity at all, but I believe some people would still be interested in using them that way, and I still believe that a start-to-finish experience would be the most compelling version.

 

>Making a new version of Raids for the chance that some people will use it for training is total a waste of resources.

 

Make no mistake, the primary purpose should **always** be for the easy mode versions to be the "only raid you'll ever need" for players who do not enjoy the challenge level of the current raids. Priority one should always be for it to be as fun and rewarding as possible to every player who is looking for that sort of experience. The "training" element is just a bonus, something that shouldn't be hard to include just as a side-effect of the process.

 

Making the easy mode a start-to-finish recreation of the original is the way to make it the most fun it can be. It also happens to be the best model for using it as a training scenario. Win-win.

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> This maaay be a bit far off, but what if, and bear me out, instead of reworking vg, we rework the pre event that leads to it? Currently I find that the preevent, which is supposed to teach the mechanic, ends far too soon. Additionally, it is usually done while waiting for the lfg to fill even in training runs (I've done this myself). What if instead of 3 guardians lined up, we have to walk to the arena and see the pylons powering the barrier. As we try to disable the pylon, unstable energy is released and attacks us in the form of the guardian with a colour matching the pylon. If the group only deactivates 1 pylon, the 1/3 lava floor will be active. 2/3 if 2 were deactivated, and add the bullet hell if all 3 were deactivated at once. We could also relocate the respawn point to be under glenna, or right before the arena. Move the ley rift there or 1 of the pact members and give it an option to reset the pylons as long as vg hasn't heen summoned or killed. Thoughts on this?

 

How would that make the actual encounter any easier? It sounds like you're just trying to educate the player to do the existing encounters better. That's not the point of easy mode.

 

 

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Whats the point. Just watch some videos and read guide or Two. After that, create training group and start training. Ill regulary join in training raids for fun and those usually take 1-3 tries to complete. VG is already an easy boss with simple mechanics. All you need is proper team comp and ppl know the mechanics(no training needed, just read them and see video and ur fine)

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> Whats the point. Just watch some videos and read guide or Two. After that, create training group and start training. Ill regulary join in training raids for fun and those usually take 1-3 tries to complete. VG is already an easy boss with simple mechanics. All you need is proper team comp and ppl know the mechanics(no training needed, just read them and see video and ur fine)

 

The point is to provide an alternative for people who will never enjoy the current version of raids due to the hassles and complexity involved, and just want a more casual gameplay experience that plays through the same content.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > Whats the point. Just watch some videos and read guide or Two. After that, create training group and start training. Ill regulary join in training raids for fun and those usually take 1-3 tries to complete. VG is already an easy boss with simple mechanics. All you need is proper team comp and ppl know the mechanics(no training needed, just read them and see video and ur fine)

>

> The point is to provide an alternative for people who will never enjoy the current version of raids due to the hassles and complexity involved, and just want a more casual gameplay experience that plays through the same content.

 

What hassels? Just make group "Raid boss X. X li. 2 classX. 2classY 1 classH 4 classB" now wait for 5-15min and go get ur kill.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > Whats the point. Just watch some videos and read guide or Two. After that, create training group and start training. Ill regulary join in training raids for fun and those usually take 1-3 tries to complete. VG is already an easy boss with simple mechanics. All you need is proper team comp and ppl know the mechanics(no training needed, just read them and see video and ur fine)

> >

> > The point is to provide an alternative for people who will never enjoy the current version of raids due to the hassles and complexity involved, and just want a more casual gameplay experience that plays through the same content.

>

> What hassels? Just make group "Raid boss X. X li. 2 classX. 2classY 1 classH 4 classB" now wait for 5-15min and go get ur kill.

 

So if I log in right this minute, type "Raid boss Sabetha. 0 li. Any classes," I would be able to find a group within five minutes that would be likely to clear the boss within one or two attempts?

[sokeenoppa.5384]

There is the proplem ^^ "any classes".

 

Lets say ill use this: VG kp. 2 chronos 2 druids 1bs 1cdps 3dps" i think i would get group around 10-15min (like every morning i play) and not many attempts needed.

For sabetha i would put little higher Li rec.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > Whats the point. Just watch some videos and read guide or Two. After that, create training group and start training. Ill regulary join in training raids for fun and those usually take 1-3 tries to complete. VG is already an easy boss with simple mechanics. All you need is proper team comp and ppl know the mechanics(no training needed, just read them and see video and ur fine)

> > >

> > > The point is to provide an alternative for people who will never enjoy the current version of raids due to the hassles and complexity involved, and just want a more casual gameplay experience that plays through the same content.

> >

> > What hassels? Just make group "Raid boss X. X li. 2 classX. 2classY 1 classH 4 classB" now wait for 5-15min and go get ur kill.

>

> So if I log in right this minute, type "Raid boss Sabetha. 0 li. Any classes," I would be able to find a group within five minutes that would be likely to clear the boss within one or two attempts?

 

Wanna join? :D

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Ok quick story what happend with sabetha. Sry My english is bad.

I needed some1 to open it so i shouted in la (no lfg Even used) hey any exp players for smooth sabetha, need some1 to open^^" it literally took under 3 minutes and my chatbox was filled with private messages where ppl told me what role they can play and some linked LI:s. Next i told in map chat "Ty all sabetha now full, dont pm anymore :)" we entered in and talked some **** couple of minutes. Sabetha was killed in first try and one of our Squad member Said "Ty for the ethernal title". So... My point stands ^^

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Keep all mechanics intact and do not dumb them down. The entire purpose of an easy mode in my opinion would be so players can learn those mechanics in preparation for normal mode. The easy mode should just down the damage the boss deals and halve its life bar or something. And of course give far less rewards.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> There is the proplem ^^ "any classes".

>

> Lets say ill use this: VG kp. 2 chronos 2 druids 1bs 1cdps 3dps" i think i would get group around 10-15min (like every morning i play) and not many attempts needed.

> For sabetha i would put little higher Li rec.

 

Well I don't think it would be fair to list more LI than I've got. The point is to get in and out in like twenty minutes or so, no mucking about. It's nice to hear that this conveniently happens for you regularly though.

 

 

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > There is the proplem ^^ "any classes".

> >

> > Lets say ill use this: VG kp. 2 chronos 2 druids 1bs 1cdps 3dps" i think i would get group around 10-15min (like every morning i play) and not many attempts needed.

> > For sabetha i would put little higher Li rec.

>

> Well I don't think it would be fair to list more LI than I've got. The point is to get in and out in like twenty minutes or so, no mucking about. It's nice to hear that this conveniently happens for you regularly though.

>

>

 

Yeah i think im just lucky :D i usually Ask ppl in my group from mapchat or from lfg without LI. Sometimes i do Ask KP though. And yes, i do comp you with that "unfair to list More than you have thing"

 

Am i really The onlyone who list lfg without LI and still every 1 who joins has 50 or more Li still?

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> Whats the point. Just watch some videos and read guide or Two. After that, create training group and start training. Ill regulary join in training raids for fun and those usually take 1-3 tries to complete. VG is already an easy boss with simple mechanics. All you need is proper team comp and ppl know the mechanics(no training needed, just read them and see video and ur fine)

 

That method of learning the mechanics you described highly favours visual learners, wouldn't you say so?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place.

>

> Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work.

>

 

As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it.

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > Whats the point. Just watch some videos and read guide or Two. After that, create training group and start training. Ill regulary join in training raids for fun and those usually take 1-3 tries to complete. VG is already an easy boss with simple mechanics. All you need is proper team comp and ppl know the mechanics(no training needed, just read them and see video and ur fine)

>

> That method of learning the mechanics you described highly favours visual learners, wouldn't you say so?

 

Agreed. I am auditive/kinetic learner and this is how I learn my encounters:

 

Ideally I gather a few friends to go with me - doesnt have to be more than 2-3 and then start a casual or a training group with them depending on our needs. If that feels too intimidating and none of you knows how to command, there are raid training Discords that will train you all through the encounter.

 

I learn best by hearing someone explain things to me personally (rather than watching a video of some random guy explaining) OR experiencing the fight - generally speaking I try to piece togewther auditive and kinetic learning. First I hear the instructions, then I do it in practice, and it all makes sense after. I can also learn through reading, but if I go read or watch a guide, I make personal notes for myself. I feel like this makes it easier for me to understand it from a non-visual POV as my visual learning is extremely weak. I might read my own notes outloud.

 

I personally took the initiative to learn all raid bosses on my own without relying on other commanders. This does not suit for everyone though as it might be bit of trial and error. But I have kills now on Cairn, Mursaat Overseer, Samarog, Vale Guardian, Gorseval and Escort. I have touched grounds on Slothasor, Bandit Trio and Deimos and understand those fights fairly well. I have also had a few pokes at Keep Construct but I havent quite pieced it together yet. However I believe you can get there and learn! Take every wipe as an improving experience - you get better and your team gets better, even if there are a few backlashes.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place.

> >

> > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work.

> >

>

> As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it.

 

I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?"

 

But, you know what, none of you really will be able to provide a good answer, and truth be told, I personally don't care anymore, it's just some stuff that gets parroted by the elitist to justify wanting something that the _filthy casuals_ are undeserving of, and if Anet wants to entertain that, that is on them. I'm done, I followed the advice of the Raid Proponents, and just doing WvW for the Armor. It's about as close as it comes to an OW alternative and while very harsh due to PvP components, it's good enough for now to make me feel like I am making progress.

 

So no matter what happens from here on out with Raids, they are dead content to me at least. If tomorrow they made an easy mode, and tossed gear at players like Skittles falling from the sky, I still would not do them. No Doubt Some of the posting here would, and they would love it, and it would revitalize their faith and love of the game, and they would start happily dumping money into the game again. Which is probably why Anet should do _something_ before more and more players become like me.

 

But again.. that is not my problem.

 

Enjoy your Raids, and here is hoping your side _wins_ I guess.

[STIHL.2489]

I have got to stop having milti-tabs open.

[Draco.9480]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place.

> > >

> > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work.

> > >

> >

> > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it.

>

> I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?"

>

> But, you know what, none of you really will be able to provide a good answer, and truth be told, I personally don't care anymore, it's just some stuff that gets parroted by the elitist to justify wanting something that the _filthy casuals_ are undeserving of, and if Anet wants to entertain that, that is on them. I'm done, I followed the advice of the Raid Proponents, and just doing WvW for the Armor. It's about as close as it comes to an OW alternative and while very harsh due to PvP components, it's good enough for now to make me feel like I am making progress.

>

> So no matter what happens from here on out with Raids, they are dead content to me at least. If tomorrow they made an easy mode, and tossed gear at players like Skittles falling from the sky, I still would not do them. No Doubt Some of the posting here would, and they would love it, and it would revitalize their faith and love of the game, and they would start happily dumping money into the game again. Which is probably why Anet should do _something_ before more and more players become like me.

>

> But again.. that is not my problem.

>

> Enjoy your Raids, and here is hoping your side _wins_ I guess.

 

no one really needs people who just come for the rewards. raids aren't for you if you think they need easy mode. raids meant to be the most difficult end game and force people to improve and be better team. if you come and just attack without rotation nor do real tactics then don't come to raid cuz you'll regret it. i've friends who are adults with family and kids and play better than me and do raids. i don't understand those lame excuse how real life issues affects your gameplay and investment. i can understand lack of time ok but gameplay itself to basic level is really a bad excuse. raids aren't difficult to begin with. all you have to do is remember few tricks and tactics on boss, concentrate just a bit, do right rotation and walla killed the boss. you on the other hand want it so easy that mistakes won't punish you and won't wipe the group. it's pointless then. all the point that 1 mistake from someone should wipe the entire group. i've extra ascended gear and enough gold and i've nothing to gain from raids but i still do 'em cuz i want to play necromancer on certain bosses and do w4 CM and w5 CM for the sake of fun.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Draco.9480" said:

> no one really needs people who just come for the rewards. raids aren't for you if you think they need easy mode. raids meant to be the most difficult end game and force people to improve and be better team. if you come and just attack without rotation nor do real tactics then don't come to raid cuz you'll regret it.

 

Agreed, this is why we need an easy mode so that those players have an option that *doesn't* involve cluttering up the existing raid pools.