What's the reason for the Staff to be so much better than the Scepter?

[Jables.4659]

I feel like everyone missed the update way back where Anet buffed the power end of scepter. They increased the attack speed with malicious sorcery, buffed power damage on confusing images/illusionary counter, and removed some of the after-cast on the auto attack chain (they might've straight up buffed the auto attack power damage as well, not 100% sure on that). I can't speak for its efficacy on condition builds as I haven't used one in ages, but for small scale wvw fights, its a solid weapon when used with a power build.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"VixusIrine.9013" said:

> Honestly I don't see the harm in letting the scepter wielding clones use the full scepter auto chain. Just replace the third strike with the torment stacks. But if you wanna get really whacky you can always have clones summoning their own clones.

 

even if they do that, the projectile is still bad. it should insta hit like necro's scepter and the duration of the conditions from the ambush skill should be full on your clones as well (when used with infinite horizon). there's absolutely no reason why a powerful aoe ambush skill from the staff has the full duration of the conditions for your clones and not the scepter, which has a MUCH weaker ambush skill.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"Jables.4659" said:

> I feel like everyone missed the update way back where Anet buffed the power end of scepter. They increased the attack speed with malicious sorcery, buffed power damage on confusing images/illusionary counter, and removed some of the after-cast on the auto attack chain (they might've straight up buffed the auto attack power damage as well, not 100% sure on that). I can't speak for its efficacy on condition builds as I haven't used one in ages, but for small scale wvw fights, its a solid weapon when used with a power build.

 

I use it every day. Not because i like scepter, but because i like the Pistol. In a 1v1 its good for everything but a spellbreaker and an acro thrief. You take the staff and it eats everything. Make Scepter great again... nvm it was never great :(

[Ceit.7619]

> @"Ansau.7326" said:

> You're glorifying staff. While it's better than what it used to be with the phantasm changes, it still needs improvements to be on the right spot, specially Chaos storm and Armor, outdated skills that for sure need improvements.

> About Scepter, it suffers from being a weapon designed in the old Gw2. Nowadays with the prevalence and bump of AoE skills, single target weapons are kinda pointless. And about halved condi duration on Ambush, it is nothing but the result of being able to output 10 stacks of confusion and torment with every ambush.

 

I think all the Scepters suffer from this design. None of their autos cleave in any way, but that is part of what separates them from other weapon types. At least mesmer has a cleaving condi weapon in the Axe, and staff is in an awkward way. I'll point at my retired condi necro's scepter as a worse problem given they have no cleave on any weapon meant for condition dps. They just have the massive cleave on epidemic.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I still prefer scepter over staff in my condi build.

[kharmin.7683]

In very casual OWPvE, I find staff to be too slow. Maybe that's just me.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> In very casual OWPvE, I find staff to be too slow. Maybe that's just me.

 

I was more referring to pvp. In pve anything can work, **even** Focus.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> I was more referring to pvp. In pve anything can work, **even** Focus.

 

In that case I would argue why would there need to be two balanced condi weapons? It's difficult enough to balance **one** per class, nevermind more than that. Makes more sense to intentionally restrict classes for PvP purposes to have something to focus on with the dev team, compare how FF14 essentially gives everyone a separate "PvP class".

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > I was more referring to pvp. In pve anything can work, **even** Focus.

>

> In that case I would argue why would there need to be two balanced condi weapons? It's difficult enough to balance **one** per class, nevermind more than that. Makes more sense to intentionally restrict classes for PvP purposes to have something to focus on with the dev team, compare how FF14 essentially gives everyone a separate "PvP class".

 

Because they're already both condi. Are they supposed to abandon one weapon and only focus on the other? Or unless its a power weapon it shouldn't be balanced at all?

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> Because they're already both condi. Are they supposed to abandon one weapon and only focus on the other? Or unless its a power weapon it shouldn't be balanced at all?

 

Well, yes. Might as well drop one. The game is **far** too bloated in everything at the moment. Removing unnecessary duplication of weapons who don't have a clear differentation (or there is no use case for the niche they could have) seems sensible. It's hardly without precedent either, most MMORPGs use their expansion-releases for massive tabula rasa reworks of classes, often ripping out entire aspects of a class. Or look at something as crazy as the somewhat recent Necromancer change in DAoC, where they essentially (and this is not hyperbole!) replaced the class in-place, with a wholly different one. Sad in a way as the previous implementation was extremely unique, but aslo untenable.

 

Anyhow, the power part I don't understand. We have a ranged and a melee power weapon. Those each have their niches as a result. We have a ranged, a melee and anothe ranged condi weapon.

 

In days past, the Staff was billed as more of a "defensive" weapon, and maybe that's a good use case. Remove the reliance on conditions entirely (make it an even split, this ensures it's not a good damage weapon for either setup, but also never useless due to having the wrong gear either), then add debilitating instead of damage-enhancing effects to the phantas and do something about Chaos Storm to make it more immediately useful to personal survival. Could work. Question would be whether the class **can use** a purely defensive weapon.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > Because they're already both condi. Are they supposed to abandon one weapon and only focus on the other? Or unless its a power weapon it shouldn't be balanced at all?

>

> Well, yes. Might as well drop one. The game is **far** too bloated in everything at the moment. Removing unnecessary duplication of weapons who don't have a clear differentation (or there is no use case for the niche they could have) seems sensible. It's hardly without precedent either, most MMORPGs use their expansion-releases for massive tabula rasa reworks of classes, often ripping out entire aspects of a class. Or look at something as crazy as the somewhat recent Necromancer change in DAoC, where they essentially (and this is not hyperbole!) replaced the class in-place, with a wholly different one. Sad in a way as the previous implementation was extremely unique, but aslo untenable.

>

> Anyhow, the power part I don't understand. We have a ranged and a melee power weapon. Those each have their niches as a result. We have a ranged, a melee and anothe ranged condi weapon.

>

> In days past, the Staff was billed as more of a "defensive" weapon, and maybe that's a good use case. Remove the reliance on conditions entirely (make it an even split, this ensures it's not a good damage weapon for either setup, but also never useless due to having the wrong gear either), then add debilitating instead of damage-enhancing effects to the phantas and do something about Chaos Storm to make it more immediately useful to personal survival. Could work. Question would be whether the class **can use** a purely defensive weapon.

 

That is an incredibly bad way of thinking. I hope to god Anet doesn't think like you, but seeing how rarely they balance weapons, they may think just like you........

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > Because they're already both condi. Are they supposed to abandon one weapon and only focus on the other? Or unless its a power weapon it shouldn't be balanced at all?

>

> Well, yes. Might as well drop one. The game is **far** too bloated in everything at the moment. Removing unnecessary duplication of weapons who don't have a clear differentation (or there is no use case for the niche they could have) seems sensible. It's hardly without precedent either, most MMORPGs use their expansion-releases for massive tabula rasa reworks of classes, often ripping out entire aspects of a class. Or look at something as crazy as the somewhat recent Necromancer change in DAoC, where they essentially (and this is not hyperbole!) replaced the class in-place, with a wholly different one. Sad in a way as the previous implementation was extremely unique, but aslo untenable.

>

> Anyhow, the power part I don't understand. We have a ranged and a melee power weapon. Those each have their niches as a result. We have a ranged, a melee and anothe ranged condi weapon.

>

> In days past, the Staff was billed as more of a "defensive" weapon, and maybe that's a good use case. Remove the reliance on conditions entirely (make it an even split, this ensures it's not a good damage weapon for either setup, but also never useless due to having the wrong gear either), then add debilitating instead of damage-enhancing effects to the phantas and do something about Chaos Storm to make it more immediately useful to personal survival. Could work. Question would be whether the class **can use** a purely defensive weapon.

 

So, your solution is to remove scepter and switch staff over to a power-based defensive/debuffing weapon? So I guess we're just going with power-only for core and chrono and melee-only for condi mirage? Yeah, sign me up for that...

[Carighan.6758]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> So, your solution is to remove scepter and switch staff over to a power-based defensive/debuffing weapon? So I guess we're just going with power-only for core and chrono and melee-only for condi mirage? Yeah, sign me up for that...

 

Eh, no. Specifically, not **and**. Or. and it's not because I wouldn't in theory like having a ton of options, it's because the past 5,5+ years have shown that the devs **struggle hard** even balancing **one** weapon for each "archetype". Expecting them to keep two balanced is utopian, so I'd prefer if they cut the space of things to be balanced down in size, considering their - apparently - low manpower for balancing/reworking.

 

I'd rather see one weapon abandoned and the other balanced than both unbalanced, basically.

 

(edit)

That is to say, I'd like bloated, if I had any indication that the dev team could handle it, size-/manpower-/time-wise. They cannot. Clearly. So I'd prefer if they unbloat the game's design until what is left can be handled. Do what you can, not what you can't.

[Orion Templar.4589]

I actually like the playstyle of scepter, but the reliance on confusion with skill #3 and the ambush skill makes it feel weak. If skill #3 and the ambush skill could remove the reliance on confusion and have some kind of better solution, I think that would be a step in the right direction.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Orion Templar.4589" said:

> I actually like the playstyle of scepter, but the reliance on confusion with skill #3 and the ambush skill makes it feel weak. If skill #3 and the ambush skill could remove the reliance on confusion and have some kind of better solution, I think that would be a step in the right direction.

 

What do you mean "reliance on confusion"? The condition damage of that skill is excellent on condi builds and on power builds it does more power damage than sword 2.

The ambush skill is meh true.

[Orion Templar.4589]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Orion Templar.4589" said:

> > I actually like the playstyle of scepter, but the reliance on confusion with skill #3 and the ambush skill makes it feel weak. If skill #3 and the ambush skill could remove the reliance on confusion and have some kind of better solution, I think that would be a step in the right direction.

>

> What do you mean "reliance on confusion"? The condition damage of that skill is excellent on condi builds and on power builds it does more power damage than sword 2.

> The ambush skill is meh true.

 

I just meant that a portion of the damage done by Confusing Images comes from the stacks of confusion it applies. And that portion of the damage just seems paltry to me. The direct damage portion of Confusing Images seems fine. But then I see these little ticks of confusion damage that are very small and wish it could be better.

[Ojimaru.8970]

> @"Orion Templar.4589" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Orion Templar.4589" said:

> > > I actually like the playstyle of scepter, but the reliance on confusion with skill #3 and the ambush skill makes it feel weak. If skill #3 and the ambush skill could remove the reliance on confusion and have some kind of better solution, I think that would be a step in the right direction.

> >

> > What do you mean "reliance on confusion"? The condition damage of that skill is excellent on condi builds and on power builds it does more power damage than sword 2.

> > The ambush skill is meh true.

>

> I just meant that a portion of the damage done by Confusing Images comes from the stacks of confusion it applies. And that portion of the damage just seems paltry to me. The direct damage portion of Confusing Images seems fine. But then I see these little ticks of confusion damage that are very small and wish it could be better.

 

/u/Xyonon from [CnD] just posted their [research](

) of Confusion damage contribution to raid DPS on a Mirage. As expected, Confusion is super effective against enemies with high attack rates, especially since the last round of changes to Confusion in PVE.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"Orion Templar.4589" said:

> I actually like the playstyle of scepter, but the reliance on confusion with skill #3 and the ambush skill makes it feel weak. If skill #3 and the ambush skill could remove the reliance on confusion and have some kind of better solution, I think that would be a step in the right direction.

 

That's all i want. Autos are not good either, but if Confusing Images and the ambush skill gets a rework, Scepter would be significantly better than it currently is.

[Belishine.7493]

it all comes to playstyle if you want condi go with scepter but if you want to be more movable then use staff. for the scepter when build as a condi the confusion is realy good and can hit supper hard if you time it all just right like up to abut 20+k for just the confusion. staff on the other hand is more like a ooooo pop wepon. what i mean by this is the phantimal retreat is like a blink and can be used to get to hard to get areas that others cant like in pvp or wvw. staff is also a boon wepon that makes it a supporters wepon this comes from chaose fuild that the staff puts down that is skill 5 and skill one gives boons on bounceing so that helps. the main reson why staff is better is becouse staff can use the blink skill and that makes it the slight winner for most peps that play mes.