Why Scourge will always be broken.

[Chum Chum.7234]

I'm rather shocked that people are still complaining about the class. Scourge is rather easy to counter, particularly if you make a point of catching them in the open. They are also still rather squishy and can be burned in short order if a decent team focuses them first. In this meta my primary focus is on Deadeyes.

[Vagrant.7206]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30953/scourge-the-fundamental-problem-and-why-numbers-changes-wont-fix-it-spvp/p1

 

Basically started that post as the same point -- the mindless spam is the real problem with Scourge. They need to modify scourge so that it cannot be played nearly as brainlessly as it is now.

 

For some reason, instead of approaching Scourge with an intent to fix the "spam and run at your target" mentality, they've gone with the easy fix of just making it worse overall, which I'm not a fan of. I don't want scourge weak -- I want it TO STOP BEING SO STUPID EASY TO PLAY WELL.

[Dralor.3701]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30953/scourge-the-fundamental-problem-and-why-numbers-changes-wont-fix-it-spvp/p1

>

> Basically started that post as the same point -- the mindless spam is the real problem with Scourge. They need to modify scourge so that it cannot be played nearly as brainlessly as it is now.

>

> For some reason, instead of approaching Scourge with an intent to fix the "spam and run at your target" mentality, they've gone with the easy fix of just making it worse overall, which I'm not a fan of. I don't want scourge weak -- I want it TO STOP BEING SO STUPID EASY TO PLAY WELL.

 

100% this.

[Abazigal.3679]

> @"Meteor.3720" said:

> I had a match with 2 scourge on 1 team, 1 scourge on the other. Plus a chrono on each team.

> No one could see anything.

> That was fun for everyone.

 

This basically. One scourge alone is a bit annoying but that's it. Problem is most matchs are about having 6 or 7 out of 10 players running mesmers or necro..

Even by playing good, you can't have a huge impact on the game. If your mesmers/necros are less good than opponents ones, game is probably lost.

 

It's also hard to see anything, it's too easy to fail on a 1v1, which usually leads to snowball effects

[Master Ketsu.4569]

These aren't reasons why Scourge is always be OP or broken. In fact, scourge is already very close to being balanced. It may just be that because I main Rev I've been forced to learn how to deal with the class, but the last string of nerfs made it considerably less of a hassle. Scourge is at least to the point now where if the scourge player doesn't know how to properly exploit their fears/cc then they can be killed by just about anyone.

 

What the reasons DO point out is why Scourge will never require any skill to play, which is not the same thing as being viable or OP. The design of Scourge makes it so barring extreme changes it will always be a mindless aoe spam spec with a skill floor lower than the core of the Earth, even if it gets nerfed to Kalla-Renegade tier bad.

 

Anet seems hellbent on making sure Necro is designed to require as little decision making skills as possible.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

What they need is having all that power split a bit.

 

They can do barriers too often, too much AoE pressure, and too much support and healing spam, all at the same time.

 

The solution to that is using 3 traits of the same timer to split the excess power.

The base power before traits would be greatly reduced, then each trait would bring back only part of it, maybe a bit stronger, but you would not be able to do all a scourge can do at full power at the same time.

You know, making the specialization line actually require people to specialize.

[Meteor.3720]

> @"Chum Chum.7234" said:

> I'm rather shocked that people are still complaining about the class. Scourge is rather easy to counter, particularly if you make a point of catching them in the open. They are also still rather squishy and can be burned in short order if a decent team focuses them first. In this meta my primary focus is on Deadeyes.

 

Thank you for the silver tier advice that both misses the point and states the obvious.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Abazigal.3679" said:

> > @"Meteor.3720" said:

> > I had a match with 2 scourge on 1 team, 1 scourge on the other. Plus a chrono on each team.

> > No one could see anything.

> > That was fun for everyone.

>

> This basically. One scourge alone is a bit annoying but that's it. Problem is most matchs are about having 6 or 7 out of 10 players running mesmers or necro..

> Even by playing good, you can't have a huge impact on the game. If your mesmers/necros are less good than opponents ones, game is probably lost.

>

> It's also hard to see anything, it's too easy to fail on a 1v1, which usually leads to snowball effects

 

Double scourge isn't good though because they're soooo slow. If your roamers are halfway decent it'll turn into a back cap fiesta while the scourges get hounded on the roads all game.

[Aeolus.3615]

Change scourge aoe into cones.....

[Chum Chum.7234]

> @"Meteor.3720" said:

> > @"Chum Chum.7234" said:

> > I'm rather shocked that people are still complaining about the class. Scourge is rather easy to counter, particularly if you make a point of catching them in the open. They are also still rather squishy and can be burned in short order if a decent team focuses them first. In this meta my primary focus is on Deadeyes.

>

> Thank you for the silver tier advice that both misses the point and states the obvious.

 

Well, I'm not silver tier... I'm actually under the impression that the current scourge issues are bronze/silver tier problems as scourges are easily handled in plat tier. There is a ton of strategy that differenciates good and bad scourges. If a scourge is spamming AOEs than they are a bad scourge. Good scourge's pick their spots, hold back until the perfect moment, and use cc chains to elimate threats. I'm not giving tips on skill rotations because that is competitive advantage, but there are perfect skill rotations and they din't include rolling ones face on the keyboard. This isn't different than any other class.

 

Most complaints about scourge are tied to their use of AOE. It is worth noting that the AOEs are not locked on autotaret bull like the rest of the game. The class trades autotarget for AOEs.

Personally, I prefer games without the autotarget nonesense as they actually take skill to the next level. Sadly, there is only one MMO with such a format and its PvP was exploited to the point of useless.

 

 

[Dreddo.9865]

> @"Meteor.3720" said:

> Thank you for the silver tier advice that both misses the point and states the obvious.

It's funny this guy states the obvious about scourge and yet you point the finger at him? Let me guess, you have but the slightest idea about the class right?

[Aza.2105]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> Change scourge aoe into cones.....

 

You beat me to it. When you look at scourge from a design perspective, changing the SHAPE of their aoes would work wonders. Large circles don't offer much counter play. Because the shape is even all around and larger than the point itself. Even if sand savant was gone, the aoes would still be relatively large. Probably almost larger than the point. Really only two shapes come to mind:

 

**Cone**: Would offer counter play and make the move weaker around the base of the scourge. A small cone shape would be perfectly balanced.

 

**Rectangle**: The same shape as warrior zerker burst with bow. A narrow rectangle shape would require positioning to hit and could be side stepped by players.

 

Why hasn't Anet even considered this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aktium.9506]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > Change scourge aoe into cones.....

>

> You beat me to it. When you look at scourge from a design perspective, changing the SHAPE of their aoes would work wonders. Large circles don't offer much counter play. Because the shape is even all around and larger than the point itself. Even if sand savant was gone, the aoes would still be relatively large. Probably almost larger than the point. Really only two shapes come to mind:

>

> **Cone**: Would offer counter play and make the move weaker around the base of the scourge. A small cone shape would be perfectly balanced.

>

> **Rectangle**: The same shape as warrior zerker burst with bow. A narrow rectangle shape would require positioning to hit and could be side stepped by players.

>

> Why hasn't Anet even considered this?

You're both plebeians.

 

Donut shades would be much cooler.

[JTGuevara.9018]

lmao Look at all the defenses of scourge on here. I just don't see how people are even defending this class.

 

Ok! From a conceptual standpoint when applied in pvp, scourge is fundamentally _broken_. Their AoEs are larger than the capture point! Plus they are instant. Their condition damage and sustain is absolutely ridiculous. Considering the nature of the game of conquest, there is simply no counterplay for all of those things _as a team_. conquest pvp is tailor-made for the scourge. This is the problem with AoE heavy classes. They're always going to have an advantage. You know there _is_ a reason why I see an average of 2 scourges per game, both on the player's and the opposing teams.

[Aza.2105]

> @"Aktium.9506" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > Change scourge aoe into cones.....

> >

> > You beat me to it. When you look at scourge from a design perspective, changing the SHAPE of their aoes would work wonders. Large circles don't offer much counter play. Because the shape is even all around and larger than the point itself. Even if sand savant was gone, the aoes would still be relatively large. Probably almost larger than the point. Really only two shapes come to mind:

> >

> > **Cone**: Would offer counter play and make the move weaker around the base of the scourge. A small cone shape would be perfectly balanced.

> >

> > **Rectangle**: The same shape as warrior zerker burst with bow. A narrow rectangle shape would require positioning to hit and could be side stepped by players.

> >

> > Why hasn't Anet even considered this?

> You're both plebeians.

>

> Donut shades would be much cooler.

 

That would be cool too!

[Meteor.3720]

> @"Chum Chum.7234" said:

> > @"Meteor.3720" said:

> > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said:

> > > I'm rather shocked that people are still complaining about the class. Scourge is rather easy to counter, particularly if you make a point of catching them in the open. They are also still rather squishy and can be burned in short order if a decent team focuses them first. In this meta my primary focus is on Deadeyes.

> >

> > Thank you for the silver tier advice that both misses the point and states the obvious.

>

> scourges are easily handled in plat tier.

 

Plz stop

[Vague Memory.2817]

Too many elite spec builds you have to try to kite to kill: Spell breaker, Scourge, Holosmith and Deadeye. It used to be just Warr, now you have to do most damage at range. Slow clap for Anet, for destroying PvP.

[Chum Chum.7234]

> @"Meteor.3720" said:

> > @"Chum Chum.7234" said:

> > > @"Meteor.3720" said:

> > > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said:

> > > > I'm rather shocked that people are still complaining about the class. Scourge is rather easy to counter, particularly if you make a point of catching them in the open. They are also still rather squishy and can be burned in short order if a decent team focuses them first. In this meta my primary focus is on Deadeyes.

> > >

> > > Thank you for the silver tier advice that both misses the point and states the obvious.

> >

> > scourges are easily handled in plat tier.

>

> Plz stop

 

So the Scourge is a "brainless/ op" class in your opinion.

 

So the top of the leader board is stuffed with Scourges?

 

Scourges don't even exist in bronze/silver tier because anyone playing one can't possibly be bad?

 

Come on now, let's be honest.

 

Honestly, I deliberately class stack scourges because they're strong in duos or packs. Solo they are easily countered. I will not play on Scourge if the other team has a good deadeye or dps ranger unless there is another scourge. Even then I hesitate because good ranged players can own scourges. Point being, there is nothing wrong with scourges, but we all know that class stacking is the core problem. If you want to complain, refocus your aim towards class stacking/switching classes before the match starts which is completely allowed.

[HeadCrowned.6834]

My concern with scourges is that they're so over the top AoE orientated that it makes a lot of other classes/builds useless in conquest game mode.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Vague Memory.2817" said:

> Too many elite spec builds you have to try to kite to kill: Spell breaker, Scourge, Holosmith and Deadeye. It used to be just Warr, now you have to do most damage at range. Slow clap for Anet, for destroying PvP.

 

Kiting.... deadeye?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"JTGuevara.9018" said:

> lmao Look at all the defenses of scourge on here. I just don't see how people are even defending this class.

>

> Ok! From a conceptual standpoint when applied in pvp, scourge is fundamentally _broken_. Their AoEs are larger than the capture point! Plus they are instant. Their condition damage and sustain is absolutely ridiculous. Considering the nature of the game of conquest, there is simply no counterplay for all of those things _as a team_. conquest pvp is tailor-made for the scourge. This is the problem with AoE heavy classes. They're always going to have an advantage. You know there _is_ a reason why I see an average of 2 scourges per game, both on the player's and the opposing teams.

 

What you're talking about isn't an issue with Scourge, it's an issue with one trait: Sand Savant.

[Aktium.9506]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> What you're talking about isn't an issue with Scourge, it's an issue with one trait: Sand Savant.

What makes this sad is that lots of people told Anet that the trait was going to be mandatory in PvP back in PoF beta and that they should either remove it completely or baseline and rebalance shades with the new size in mind. In retrospect, the latter option would have been terrible. But still, it was brought up.

 

As it is right now Scourge will feel oppressive and overpowered as long as shades do anything at all because of how utterly huge a 300 radius 100% uptime AoE actually is. You would have to gut shade skills until they are very nearly useless for them to not be problematic with Sand Savant.

 

 

[milego.4830]

You see it's broken when they literally turned them into raid bosses. They're pretty much walking dancing floors.

[JTGuevara.9018]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"JTGuevara.9018" said:

> > lmao Look at all the defenses of scourge on here. I just don't see how people are even defending this class.

> >

> > Ok! From a conceptual standpoint when applied in pvp, scourge is fundamentally _broken_. Their AoEs are larger than the capture point! Plus they are instant. Their condition damage and sustain is absolutely ridiculous. Considering the nature of the game of conquest, there is simply no counterplay for all of those things _as a team_. conquest pvp is tailor-made for the scourge. This is the problem with AoE heavy classes. They're always going to have an advantage. You know there _is_ a reason why I see an average of 2 scourges per game, both on the player's and the opposing teams.

>

> What you're talking about isn't an issue with Scourge, it's an issue with one trait: Sand Savant.

 

HA! Yeah right! It's not just one little trait. The ENTIRE spec is a conceptual problem with respect to conquest.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> My concern with scourges is that they're so over the top AoE orientated that it makes a lot of other classes/builds useless in conquest game mode.

 

Not just that but builds too...

 

D/D elementalist is my favourite but melee is extremely hard countered by Scourge....

What actually really pisses me off the most though is Diamond skin and Necro players mentality...

 

Necros: "Change Diamond skin because it hard counters Rabid Amulet"

Anet changes Diamond skin

Everyone: "Scourge hard counters melee builds"

Necros: "That's fine and balanced, git gud and l2play"