Nerfs other than mesmer.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > @"Griever.8150" said:

> > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > @"Griever.8150" said:

> > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > > I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Problem with Holo's damage is the amount of efforts you have to put into it. I play it as my 3rd character to grind the backpack and compared to my Thief (any build, i play all of them) and Rev (Power Shiro, haven't bothered with anything else) its mind boggling to me the amount of pressure i do on my Holo while honestly not being that great on it. It honestly feels like it does what Rev should do, but just better because it can stick into fights while Rev needs to play hit and run because of its kitten sustain.

> > > > >

> > > > > There's no denying holo's damage is the direct result of powercreep, and when unfettered by opponents, their damage is ludicrously high. That much is true. Against PvP newbies, it is an utter wrecking ball. But in high level matchups (I'm typically mid-plat, although I'm taking this season off) against opponents who know all the tells or how to CC chain, it's not nearly as potent.

> > > >

> > > > Playing around Gold2/3 (second season i play "seriously") I def don't play agains't "pros" but doubt i mostly play agains't new players as well.

> > > >

> > > > The biggest issue i can see with Holo (along Mes) is that its too well rounded, don't get me wrong, its very fun to play because of that but it makes many other builds feel obsolete. At least i know that if all i cared about was rating, its probably what i would focus on. While Thief is very fun, it doesn't have the greatest potential to carry, its good at swaying close games in your favor but it doesn't have the impact Holo does on games going bad, at least in my experience. Outside mobility/roaming potential, Holo does everything Rev can do but better and its only because of these factors i still find Rev more fun but the impact it has on a teamfight is again, not really comparable.

> > >

> > > My personal experience is that holo resembles that of a slower D/P thief. If people aren't paying attention to you, or for some reason ignored all your giant flashy moves, you will do a ton of damage. But as soon as the enemy starts focusing you or CC'ing you, your potency is greatly reduced. I wouldn't call it a great all-rounder (it's pretty slow and got no disengage for the most part), but it certainly is potent.

> > >

> > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > > I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As for the sustain... seriously, the meta build for holo is almost entirely focused on being a bruiser (bruiser ammie, all utility skills are defensive, traits mostly defensive), because otherwise the spec would fall apart in seconds, thanks to the bizarre way ArenaNet has chosen to nerf it. It can't disengage nearly as easily as a mesmer, thief, or warrior can, so it needs overall higher damage and a bit more sustain.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ---------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Besides mesmer... some nerfs or changes I'd like to see:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > * I still dislike the way scourge allows for braindead play. I've detailed a few fixes, but it seems ArenaNet has also gone the braindead way of nerfing it (cooldown increases), instead of trying to make the spec require more intelligence to play well. Sigh. Change Sand Savant and/or make it so that the scourge themselves are not shades.

> > > > > > > * I dislike how easily a skilled warrior can disengage and reset the entire fight. There's a few fixes that would be relatively simple without destroying the whole class, such as reducing the distance traveled by Rush, or removing the evade frames on whirlwind. The class already gets a ton of defensive advantages, it doesn't need the disengage potential too.

> > > > > > > * Firebrand boonspam needs to be toned down, still.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don't have too much besides that. Here are some buffs I think we should see:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > * Core necro/reaper could use some buffing (reaper needs a better way to get around, too slow for a melee class).

> > > > > > > * Scrapper needs a better way to get around, and some way to deal with the constant corruption from scourges that turn scrapper into a wet noodle.

> > > > > > > * Core engineer... needs a whole lot done. It's just too slow, too little damage, too vulnerable, no stability. It's all the risk, and none of the reward.

> > > > > > > * All of revenant needs a whole lot of work. It needs more damage and sustain, less cheese abilities. Plus more customizable utilities.

> > > > > > > * Core ele/tempest could do with some buffs.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Warrior being the only melee fighter needs disengage, especially from stupid aoe bombs of scourge when you run out of resistance.

> > > > > > Warrior kite and disengage ability is nowhere near what a stupid mesmer can have, he literally reset a fight in a matter of seconds.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Able to disengage a fight it's a must every profession should have, but when it's at the level of mesmer or thief is way too much.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Btw holosmith on mid team fight or node sider using demolisher as well and HLA is way tankier than a warrior itself, and holosmith has his disengage ability too.

> > > > >

> > > > > But warrior is not the only melee fighter... that's demonstrably untrue. Thieves and holos occupy the melee space as well. Thieves obviously have their disengage, but the only real disengage a holo has access to is rocket boots. That's it, and it's not even that good unless specifically traited. It doesn't have evade frames, nor is it as fast as rush is.

> > > > >

> > > > > The thing is, I often see warriors running two melee sets -- typically axe/shield and greatsword or dagger/shield and greatsword, but they're often still able to disengage like a ranged class can thanks to Greatsword's utility. As I main one of the slower classes in the game (engineer), it's spectacularly obnoxious for a warrior to simply rush off and have all my cripple/immob/CC skills miss because they either move so fast (from Rush, which causes net shot to miss horribly, overcharged shot gets outranged too fast) or they're evading (from whirlwind attack). With the right set of utilities, they also have access to way more CC than engineers. It's like warriors to get to have their cake and eat it too. If rush was 1/2 a second slower at reaching its destination, it would be enough.

> > > >

> > > > Don't get me wrong, I am not defending warrior or something, actually I play warrior but holosmith as well.

> > > >

> > > > Fighting a good holo in wvw, trust me he can kite pretty good and reset as well even without rocket boots.

> > > >

> > > > And Rush is not a spammable instant tp disengage ability, have it's fair cd and it's a "running" mobility ability.

> > > >

> > > > The current holosmith when using hard light arena on a 1vs1 on point with all the boons he generates, he doesn't need that much mobility to stay alive, but using holo#2 can kite, rifle5 (similar to gs5) can kite, using spectrum shield plus perma protection is a -80% damage reduction, if using https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Blooded even more, and it's tanky probably even more than spellbreaker in that scenario.

> > > >

> > > > I personaly think both spellbreaker and holo are in a really good and fair spot right now.

> > > >

> > > > If you cut off them mobility of gs in warrior, it will become an unplayable profession, as I said every profession should have disengage ability, but only limited and fair (in my opinion mesmer and thief disengage ability are too strong, considering stealth abuse).

> > > >

> > > > I would focus more on balancing the still brainless spam of scourge and the recent brainless clone spam of mesmer as a top priority.

> > > >

> > > > Rarely you see double warrior or double holo, but 90% you see double scourge or mesmer.

> > >

> > > WvW is kind of a different beast. Rocket boots makes way more sense there than it does in sPvP, given how large the fighting area is, and the fact you don't generally need to stay in a small capture point most of the time.

> > >

> > > That's true about its CD. I'm kind of kvetching because as an engineer main (again, one of the slowest classes alongside necro), I've seen too many warriors just effortlessly glide away from my attacks with their greatsword and there's nothing I can do to slow or stop them without being supremely lucky. I've only played warrior sparingly, but I know its ability to disengage is not as powerful as mesmer or thief.

> > >

> > > And I agree for the most part. I don't think spellbreaker or holo need too many adjustments. I'd like to see some improvements on underperforming stuff in holo (like, what's even the point of the condi traits/skills in PvP?), but that's relatively minor to addressing mesmer/scourge.

> > >

> > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > Auto crit on photon forge #5 should go. Meh. Maybe increase the CD on 2 and make missing 3 a bit more punishing. They could slash the vuln stacks of Coronoa Burst from 8 to 4 or something. Change Light Density Amp to function based on heat levels. Doing 1, a couple, or a fraction of one of these would be alright for holo, I think, but only as long as other classes get nerfs at the same time. Maaaaybe take another look at the cooldown on hard light arena? CD reduction based on heat level might be appropriate (a very small reduction). Idk, mess around with it a bit.

> > >

> > > Missing Corona Burst right now is EXTREMELY punishing for holos, as it is our _only_ access to stability. Without it, we get ping-ponged or CC-chained around fights. I'd be ok with lowering its overall output **IF** you could replace that stability elsewhere. The CC spam is real if you're in melee range, and holo can't disengage nearly as well as most other classes.

> > >

> > > The damage output on forge #5 isn't all that impressive, actually. You need pretty high ferocity to make it valuable -- I mean, look at its tooltip damage: 375 (0.96). For comparison, the second attack in the autoattack chain is 391 (1.0). Critting the second autoattack does more damage than #5, with way less heat. The main value of holographic shockwave is its AoE CC.

> > >

> > > CD on Holographic Leap needs to be short. Engineer doesn't have any other gap closers. The damage was already nerfed pretty hard, I think it's fair now.

> > >

> > > ------

> > >

> > > I spent time playing the meta build for holo today, and I realize why y'all think the damage on holo is excessive. Because you don't know about [static Discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge "Static Discharge"), one of the poorest-designed traits in engineer. With the right setup, like this current meta build uses, the damage is incredibly high because of the instant cast toolbelt skills.

> > >

> > > There's a lot to be said about static discharge... but I just dislike its design in general. Just read the wiki about it - it's very badly designed. The easiest way to reduce its output would just be giving it a 1s ICD to prevent bursts with it.

> >

> > I’m sorry but no skill that can do as much damage as holo leap should be on a 2s cool down without some kind of ammo mechanic. The photon forge skills are also generally on very low cool downs for their damage, I know they build heat limiting in some way the time spent in holo but every single GM trait allows either more time in holo or rewards you for going ham and overheating, which is good design I might add.

>

> Wait, one of the most obviously telegraphed skills in the game that has already had its damage nerfed pretty significantly (and is only somewhat better than the autoattack) and is the only gap closer holosmith actually has is a problem for you? Ok then.

>

> Btw, my point about Holo being a less mobile but more durable D/P thief still stands:

>

> * Holo Leap: 586 (1.5)

> * Shadow Shot: 481 (1.3125)

>

> One of these is an elite spec. The other is core. :) One can use these at any time, the other has to wait on an obligatory cooldown.

 

Shadowshot costs 4 initiative which is 4s worth of cool down which is double that of holo leap, it also arguably does less. The issue isn’t the damage, the issue is how much you can spam it and how much of a benefit it is, you literally see holos spamming holo leap away from people because they can’t keep up. Cool downs from elite specs across the board need to go up back to near core standards.

 

Besides comparing cool downs on thief is a really bad thing to try, it just doesn’t work, go find another skill on another class doing that much damage with a 2s cool down? Maybe CoR and true shot? I’ve already said back at HoT launch they should have been 8s cool downs.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Vague Memory.2817" said:

> > Holosmith - too much sustain, too much damage, and ridiculous amounts of short and long ranged CC.

> >

> > Spell breaker - As soon as someone says the best way to beat this class is by kiting them/losing LoS, that already says that class is broken. Warr in general is just a ridiculously strong class, perma stun until dead, short CDs, obscene mobility (players should get time CD penalties for using combat skills OoC, or these skills should require a target), damage too high, sustain/regeneration is too high for a class that already has everything, with hardly any downsides. They don't have to spec into Vit or Toughness.

> >

> > Scourge + Mirage - Both these Elite specs are too silly to elucidate the obvious.

> >

> > Guard - For the amount of burst these guys have, do they really need 3-4 teleport-to-target skills. Guards also has too much sustain, one of the few classes that can spec high into healing and still do massive damage because they have so many damage negation skills like block (+aegis), invulns, etc.

> >

> > Deadeye - Why introduce the most annoying spec in the game. A sniper class that has stealth on maps that were not designed to accommodate snipers. An elite spec solely designed by crystal meth.

>

>

>

>

> Dont forget. Soulbeast, Weaver, and ~~ power rev ~~ reaperare lurking under the waters for op if all of those come to pass.

 

You and I are in complete agreement here. The amount of damage a reaper, SB and power rev can do is pretty insane. Weaver has amazing sustain, it just kinda lacks the damage of the 1v1 classes but all 4 are 1 buff or 1 nerf to others away from being far too strong.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"jsp.6912" said:

> necro: maybe nerf blood magic idk

 

Blood Magic has been literally unplayable for years, necro finally gets a spec that can actually use the traitline and now people are screaming nerf.

 

 

I'm getting really sick of all the "the best way to balance scourge is to nerf everything on necro but Scourge" posts.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > @"Griever.8150" said:

> > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > > @"Griever.8150" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > > > I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Problem with Holo's damage is the amount of efforts you have to put into it. I play it as my 3rd character to grind the backpack and compared to my Thief (any build, i play all of them) and Rev (Power Shiro, haven't bothered with anything else) its mind boggling to me the amount of pressure i do on my Holo while honestly not being that great on it. It honestly feels like it does what Rev should do, but just better because it can stick into fights while Rev needs to play hit and run because of its kitten sustain.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There's no denying holo's damage is the direct result of powercreep, and when unfettered by opponents, their damage is ludicrously high. That much is true. Against PvP newbies, it is an utter wrecking ball. But in high level matchups (I'm typically mid-plat, although I'm taking this season off) against opponents who know all the tells or how to CC chain, it's not nearly as potent.

> > > > >

> > > > > Playing around Gold2/3 (second season i play "seriously") I def don't play agains't "pros" but doubt i mostly play agains't new players as well.

> > > > >

> > > > > The biggest issue i can see with Holo (along Mes) is that its too well rounded, don't get me wrong, its very fun to play because of that but it makes many other builds feel obsolete. At least i know that if all i cared about was rating, its probably what i would focus on. While Thief is very fun, it doesn't have the greatest potential to carry, its good at swaying close games in your favor but it doesn't have the impact Holo does on games going bad, at least in my experience. Outside mobility/roaming potential, Holo does everything Rev can do but better and its only because of these factors i still find Rev more fun but the impact it has on a teamfight is again, not really comparable.

> > > >

> > > > My personal experience is that holo resembles that of a slower D/P thief. If people aren't paying attention to you, or for some reason ignored all your giant flashy moves, you will do a ton of damage. But as soon as the enemy starts focusing you or CC'ing you, your potency is greatly reduced. I wouldn't call it a great all-rounder (it's pretty slow and got no disengage for the most part), but it certainly is potent.

> > > >

> > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > > > I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > As for the sustain... seriously, the meta build for holo is almost entirely focused on being a bruiser (bruiser ammie, all utility skills are defensive, traits mostly defensive), because otherwise the spec would fall apart in seconds, thanks to the bizarre way ArenaNet has chosen to nerf it. It can't disengage nearly as easily as a mesmer, thief, or warrior can, so it needs overall higher damage and a bit more sustain.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ---------

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Besides mesmer... some nerfs or changes I'd like to see:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > * I still dislike the way scourge allows for braindead play. I've detailed a few fixes, but it seems ArenaNet has also gone the braindead way of nerfing it (cooldown increases), instead of trying to make the spec require more intelligence to play well. Sigh. Change Sand Savant and/or make it so that the scourge themselves are not shades.

> > > > > > > > * I dislike how easily a skilled warrior can disengage and reset the entire fight. There's a few fixes that would be relatively simple without destroying the whole class, such as reducing the distance traveled by Rush, or removing the evade frames on whirlwind. The class already gets a ton of defensive advantages, it doesn't need the disengage potential too.

> > > > > > > > * Firebrand boonspam needs to be toned down, still.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I don't have too much besides that. Here are some buffs I think we should see:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > * Core necro/reaper could use some buffing (reaper needs a better way to get around, too slow for a melee class).

> > > > > > > > * Scrapper needs a better way to get around, and some way to deal with the constant corruption from scourges that turn scrapper into a wet noodle.

> > > > > > > > * Core engineer... needs a whole lot done. It's just too slow, too little damage, too vulnerable, no stability. It's all the risk, and none of the reward.

> > > > > > > > * All of revenant needs a whole lot of work. It needs more damage and sustain, less cheese abilities. Plus more customizable utilities.

> > > > > > > > * Core ele/tempest could do with some buffs.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Warrior being the only melee fighter needs disengage, especially from stupid aoe bombs of scourge when you run out of resistance.

> > > > > > > Warrior kite and disengage ability is nowhere near what a stupid mesmer can have, he literally reset a fight in a matter of seconds.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Able to disengage a fight it's a must every profession should have, but when it's at the level of mesmer or thief is way too much.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Btw holosmith on mid team fight or node sider using demolisher as well and HLA is way tankier than a warrior itself, and holosmith has his disengage ability too.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But warrior is not the only melee fighter... that's demonstrably untrue. Thieves and holos occupy the melee space as well. Thieves obviously have their disengage, but the only real disengage a holo has access to is rocket boots. That's it, and it's not even that good unless specifically traited. It doesn't have evade frames, nor is it as fast as rush is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The thing is, I often see warriors running two melee sets -- typically axe/shield and greatsword or dagger/shield and greatsword, but they're often still able to disengage like a ranged class can thanks to Greatsword's utility. As I main one of the slower classes in the game (engineer), it's spectacularly obnoxious for a warrior to simply rush off and have all my cripple/immob/CC skills miss because they either move so fast (from Rush, which causes net shot to miss horribly, overcharged shot gets outranged too fast) or they're evading (from whirlwind attack). With the right set of utilities, they also have access to way more CC than engineers. It's like warriors to get to have their cake and eat it too. If rush was 1/2 a second slower at reaching its destination, it would be enough.

> > > > >

> > > > > Don't get me wrong, I am not defending warrior or something, actually I play warrior but holosmith as well.

> > > > >

> > > > > Fighting a good holo in wvw, trust me he can kite pretty good and reset as well even without rocket boots.

> > > > >

> > > > > And Rush is not a spammable instant tp disengage ability, have it's fair cd and it's a "running" mobility ability.

> > > > >

> > > > > The current holosmith when using hard light arena on a 1vs1 on point with all the boons he generates, he doesn't need that much mobility to stay alive, but using holo#2 can kite, rifle5 (similar to gs5) can kite, using spectrum shield plus perma protection is a -80% damage reduction, if using https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Blooded even more, and it's tanky probably even more than spellbreaker in that scenario.

> > > > >

> > > > > I personaly think both spellbreaker and holo are in a really good and fair spot right now.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you cut off them mobility of gs in warrior, it will become an unplayable profession, as I said every profession should have disengage ability, but only limited and fair (in my opinion mesmer and thief disengage ability are too strong, considering stealth abuse).

> > > > >

> > > > > I would focus more on balancing the still brainless spam of scourge and the recent brainless clone spam of mesmer as a top priority.

> > > > >

> > > > > Rarely you see double warrior or double holo, but 90% you see double scourge or mesmer.

> > > >

> > > > WvW is kind of a different beast. Rocket boots makes way more sense there than it does in sPvP, given how large the fighting area is, and the fact you don't generally need to stay in a small capture point most of the time.

> > > >

> > > > That's true about its CD. I'm kind of kvetching because as an engineer main (again, one of the slowest classes alongside necro), I've seen too many warriors just effortlessly glide away from my attacks with their greatsword and there's nothing I can do to slow or stop them without being supremely lucky. I've only played warrior sparingly, but I know its ability to disengage is not as powerful as mesmer or thief.

> > > >

> > > > And I agree for the most part. I don't think spellbreaker or holo need too many adjustments. I'd like to see some improvements on underperforming stuff in holo (like, what's even the point of the condi traits/skills in PvP?), but that's relatively minor to addressing mesmer/scourge.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > > Auto crit on photon forge #5 should go. Meh. Maybe increase the CD on 2 and make missing 3 a bit more punishing. They could slash the vuln stacks of Coronoa Burst from 8 to 4 or something. Change Light Density Amp to function based on heat levels. Doing 1, a couple, or a fraction of one of these would be alright for holo, I think, but only as long as other classes get nerfs at the same time. Maaaaybe take another look at the cooldown on hard light arena? CD reduction based on heat level might be appropriate (a very small reduction). Idk, mess around with it a bit.

> > > >

> > > > Missing Corona Burst right now is EXTREMELY punishing for holos, as it is our _only_ access to stability. Without it, we get ping-ponged or CC-chained around fights. I'd be ok with lowering its overall output **IF** you could replace that stability elsewhere. The CC spam is real if you're in melee range, and holo can't disengage nearly as well as most other classes.

> > > >

> > > > The damage output on forge #5 isn't all that impressive, actually. You need pretty high ferocity to make it valuable -- I mean, look at its tooltip damage: 375 (0.96). For comparison, the second attack in the autoattack chain is 391 (1.0). Critting the second autoattack does more damage than #5, with way less heat. The main value of holographic shockwave is its AoE CC.

> > > >

> > > > CD on Holographic Leap needs to be short. Engineer doesn't have any other gap closers. The damage was already nerfed pretty hard, I think it's fair now.

> > > >

> > > > ------

> > > >

> > > > I spent time playing the meta build for holo today, and I realize why y'all think the damage on holo is excessive. Because you don't know about [static Discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge "Static Discharge"), one of the poorest-designed traits in engineer. With the right setup, like this current meta build uses, the damage is incredibly high because of the instant cast toolbelt skills.

> > > >

> > > > There's a lot to be said about static discharge... but I just dislike its design in general. Just read the wiki about it - it's very badly designed. The easiest way to reduce its output would just be giving it a 1s ICD to prevent bursts with it.

> > >

> > > I’m sorry but no skill that can do as much damage as holo leap should be on a 2s cool down without some kind of ammo mechanic. The photon forge skills are also generally on very low cool downs for their damage, I know they build heat limiting in some way the time spent in holo but every single GM trait allows either more time in holo or rewards you for going ham and overheating, which is good design I might add.

> >

> > Wait, one of the most obviously telegraphed skills in the game that has already had its damage nerfed pretty significantly (and is only somewhat better than the autoattack) and is the only gap closer holosmith actually has is a problem for you? Ok then.

> >

> > Btw, my point about Holo being a less mobile but more durable D/P thief still stands:

> >

> > * Holo Leap: 586 (1.5)

> > * Shadow Shot: 481 (1.3125)

> >

> > One of these is an elite spec. The other is core. :) One can use these at any time, the other has to wait on an obligatory cooldown.

>

> Shadowshot costs 4 initiative which is 4s worth of cool down which is double that of holo leap, it also arguably does less. The issue isn’t the damage, the issue is how much you can spam it and how much of a benefit it is, you literally see holos spamming holo leap away from people because they can’t keep up. Cool downs from elite specs across the board need to go up back to near core standards.

>

> Besides comparing cool downs on thief is a really bad thing to try, it just doesn’t work, go find another skill on another class doing that much damage with a 2s cool down? Maybe CoR and true shot? I’ve already said back at HoT launch they should have been 8s cool downs.

 

SWORD AMBUSH!

[FtoPScrub.5476]

Spellbreaker and holo are suffocating the side node meta. Back in the hot days you had 5 or even 6 competitive side noders. Now it's just holo/sb/Mesmer despite the fact that we have 9 more specs. We already know Mesmer is getting the nerf bat but they also need to nerf spellbreaker sustain and holo damage.

[Math.5123]

> @"Assic.2746" said:

> * Firebrand's boon spam. Especially stability spam on tome #1. Combined with Protection, Aegis, Resistance it's just crazy. In my opinion tome #1 skills should not be spammable. FB's capabilities cannot be compared to any other support. I would like to see more damage and less boon spam on FB.

> * Scourge's shades should either have their radius lowered or cooldown increased. I hate the shade spam and how fast shades recharge. Scourges do not get punished for spamming shades wherever they can.

> * Chrono & Mirage are gonna get fixed at the same time with changes to chronophantasma. Illusion spam will be obliterated. I would like to see block on chrono's shield have its duration reduced.

> * I would like to see some changes to Holosmith's sustain. Nothing major.

> * Cooldown on Full Counter further increased. Spellbreaker has way to much blocks.

 

Okay, so. The Firebrand boon time is #3, not #1.

Chronophantasma is a Chronomancer only trait, so it will literally do nothing to Mirage.

 

All in all though, is a decent list.

[Euthymias.7984]

> @"Martimus.6027" said:

> "What I want nerfed:

>

> Every class I have lost to in any PVP matchup" (as if there isn't a rock/paper/scissors theme in almost every single game offering PVP)

>

> Basically everything here. All you have to do to see who plays what class as their mains is look and see what class/spec on the list they _don't_ want/list to be nerfed.

> These "nerf X spec/class because Y" threads are entirely too populous on this forum.

 

This tbh.

That said, I dont think we need any hard nerfs, but a couple shaves.

For Spellbreaker, just make FC daze the one who trigger it while just doing the AoE damage to those around it if its possible. Warrior sustain may need some looking into but its otherwise fine, really.

Scourge just needs a nerf to its big shade.

 

Holo is actually what I'd call a proper baseline for what bruiser specs SHOULD be, imo - being able to pressure with some degree of risk but having enough utility to sustain and enough options to do other things (cleanse, more pressure, some disengage/defense). Revenant should be brought up to par to this with some small pushes.

[Sampson.2403]

Firebrand + Scourge combo is OP and is just as toxic to a match as a chrono disenchanter is.

[holodoc.5748]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Personally I want to see the following:

>

> Photon forge skills get increased cool downs, I’m fine with the damage but most are on low cool downs for the effect and damage they give especially holo leap

 

Holosmith is currently the only profession that suffers severe punishment for any kind of mismanagement of it's primary mechanic. If you let the Photon Forge overheat not only are you completely cut off from it until the CD runs off but you also suffer damage which can mean the difference between staying alive and going into downed state. Name one, just one, other build or profession that has at least a similar type of punishment. There is none.

[Lalainnia.3598]

What really needs nerfing are those pesky unblockable power soulbeasts! :p

[apharma.3741]

> @"holodoc.5748" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > Personally I want to see the following:

> >

> > Photon forge skills get increased cool downs, I’m fine with the damage but most are on low cool downs for the effect and damage they give especially holo leap

>

> Holosmith is currently the only profession that suffers severe punishment for any kind of mismanagement of it's primary mechanic. If you let the Photon Forge overheat not only are you completely cut off from it until the CD runs off but you also suffer damage which can mean the difference between staying alive and going into downed state. Name one, just one, other build or profession that has at least a similar type of punishment. There is none.

 

You have 3 GM traits that all help to prevent you to overheat either by removing heat built up, extending the amount of heat you can generate or letting you overheat with no consequence. Overheating is a 100% learn to play issue, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve overheated.

[holodoc.5748]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"holodoc.5748" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > Personally I want to see the following:

> > >

> > > Photon forge skills get increased cool downs, I’m fine with the damage but most are on low cool downs for the effect and damage they give especially holo leap

> >

> > Holosmith is currently the only profession that suffers severe punishment for any kind of mismanagement of it's primary mechanic. If you let the Photon Forge overheat not only are you completely cut off from it until the CD runs off but you also suffer damage which can mean the difference between staying alive and going into downed state. Name one, just one, other build or profession that has at least a similar type of punishment. There is none.

>

> You have 3 GM traits that all help to prevent you to overheat either by removing heat built up, extending the amount of heat you can generate or letting you overheat with no consequence. Overheating is a 100% learn to play issue, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve overheated.

 

There is no Holosmith trait that removes heat build up. Vent exhaust only removes heat on dodge and even then it's just 15% per dodge which is easily filled by any Photon Forge skill so it's not that much useful except for dealing damage and self-heals. ECSU get's Holosmith additional 50% heat storage but you lose access to bonuses from other GM traits and Photon Forge mismanagement is still severely punished. Photonic Blasting Module prevents only initial overheating damage and Photon Forge is still going on full shut down if you let it overheat.

 

So yes, Holosmith is still the only profession in the game that has severe punishment for mismanaging it's primary mechanic. On top of that even if it's GM traits are good you still can choose only one. If Holosmith gets nerfed without dealing with other professions first he'll just become a free kill.

[sephiroth.4217]

My vote is with Druid...

 

Can't win against a good Druid, so nerf them.

(insert op skills and factual knowledge about the class here in a futile effort to have classess nerfed because I don't want to learn how to beat them, also unblockable attacks and damage immunity for 12s can be shoved up yo butt)

[apharma.3741]

> @"holodoc.5748" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"holodoc.5748" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > Personally I want to see the following:

> > > >

> > > > Photon forge skills get increased cool downs, I’m fine with the damage but most are on low cool downs for the effect and damage they give especially holo leap

> > >

> > > Holosmith is currently the only profession that suffers severe punishment for any kind of mismanagement of it's primary mechanic. If you let the Photon Forge overheat not only are you completely cut off from it until the CD runs off but you also suffer damage which can mean the difference between staying alive and going into downed state. Name one, just one, other build or profession that has at least a similar type of punishment. There is none.

> >

> > You have 3 GM traits that all help to prevent you to overheat either by removing heat built up, extending the amount of heat you can generate or letting you overheat with no consequence. Overheating is a 100% learn to play issue, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve overheated.

>

> There is no Holosmith trait that removes heat build up. Vent exhaust only removes heat on dodge and even then it's just 15% per dodge which is easily filled by any Photon Forge skill so it's not that much useful except for dealing damage and self-heals. ECSU get's Holosmith additional 50% heat storage but you lose access to bonuses from other GM traits and Photon Forge mismanagement is still severely punished. Photonic Blasting Module prevents only initial overheating damage and Photon Forge is still going on full shut down if you let it overheat.

>

> So yes, Holosmith is still the only profession in the game that has severe punishment for mismanaging it's primary mechanic. On top of that even if it's GM traits are good you still can choose only one. If Holosmith gets nerfed without dealing with other professions first he'll just become a free kill.

 

So the trait that removes built up heat on dodge, vent exhaust means “there is no holosmith trait that removes heat built up”? You literally contradicted yourself in the first 2 sentences.

 

If you overheat it’s because you played badly or you were completely, utterly outplayed. Managing cool downs is PvP 101, I thought we were passed this as an excuse.

[holodoc.5748]

/delete

15char

[Chaith.8256]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"holodoc.5748" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"holodoc.5748" said:

> > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > Personally I want to see the following:

> > > > >

> > > > > Photon forge skills get increased cool downs, I’m fine with the damage but most are on low cool downs for the effect and damage they give especially holo leap

> > > >

> > > > Holosmith is currently the only profession that suffers severe punishment for any kind of mismanagement of it's primary mechanic. If you let the Photon Forge overheat not only are you completely cut off from it until the CD runs off but you also suffer damage which can mean the difference between staying alive and going into downed state. Name one, just one, other build or profession that has at least a similar type of punishment. There is none.

> > >

> > > You have 3 GM traits that all help to prevent you to overheat either by removing heat built up, extending the amount of heat you can generate or letting you overheat with no consequence. Overheating is a 100% learn to play issue, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve overheated.

> >

> > There is no Holosmith trait that removes heat build up. Vent exhaust only removes heat on dodge and even then it's just 15% per dodge which is easily filled by any Photon Forge skill so it's not that much useful except for dealing damage and self-heals. ECSU get's Holosmith additional 50% heat storage but you lose access to bonuses from other GM traits and Photon Forge mismanagement is still severely punished. Photonic Blasting Module prevents only initial overheating damage and Photon Forge is still going on full shut down if you let it overheat.

> >

> > So yes, Holosmith is still the only profession in the game that has severe punishment for mismanaging it's primary mechanic. On top of that even if it's GM traits are good you still can choose only one. If Holosmith gets nerfed without dealing with other professions first he'll just become a free kill.

>

> So the trait that removes built up heat on dodge, vent exhaust means “there is no holosmith trait that removes heat built up”? You literally contradicted yourself in the first 2 sentences.

>

> If you overheat it’s because you played badly or you were completely, utterly outplayed. Managing cool downs is PvP 101, I thought we were passed this as an excuse.

 

I acknowledge both sides of the argument,

 

- You shouldn't overheat ever

 

Vs.

 

- You're harshly punished for simply running out of resources

 

Here's my take on it: no Engineers overheat never. The average engi will overheat probably 2x a game in PvP. A master Engineer will overheat once every series of games, or if he's very intent on preventing that, possibly longer, like, 6+ hours.

 

There's the possibility you can overheat through no fault of your own too. Immobilize preventing you from venting heat, chill making it up to a 10s CD to leave Photon Forge

 

Actively killing yourself is a statistical relevant risk for every Holosmith player, no matter how good. So while you can mitigate up to 95% of the risk by playing well, you can't deny that you don't always play well, and it's fun to punish the enemy's free-kill overheated Holos - I do it all the time. It happens in PvP.

 

Mechanics in place to expose/destroy you for not playing well, its extra risk, and Photon Forge should remain having a healthy risk/reward structure based on the fact that you should overheat rarely.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"holodoc.5748" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > @"holodoc.5748" said:

> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > > Personally I want to see the following:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Photon forge skills get increased cool downs, I’m fine with the damage but most are on low cool downs for the effect and damage they give especially holo leap

> > > > >

> > > > > Holosmith is currently the only profession that suffers severe punishment for any kind of mismanagement of it's primary mechanic. If you let the Photon Forge overheat not only are you completely cut off from it until the CD runs off but you also suffer damage which can mean the difference between staying alive and going into downed state. Name one, just one, other build or profession that has at least a similar type of punishment. There is none.

> > > >

> > > > You have 3 GM traits that all help to prevent you to overheat either by removing heat built up, extending the amount of heat you can generate or letting you overheat with no consequence. Overheating is a 100% learn to play issue, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve overheated.

> > >

> > > There is no Holosmith trait that removes heat build up. Vent exhaust only removes heat on dodge and even then it's just 15% per dodge which is easily filled by any Photon Forge skill so it's not that much useful except for dealing damage and self-heals. ECSU get's Holosmith additional 50% heat storage but you lose access to bonuses from other GM traits and Photon Forge mismanagement is still severely punished. Photonic Blasting Module prevents only initial overheating damage and Photon Forge is still going on full shut down if you let it overheat.

> > >

> > > So yes, Holosmith is still the only profession in the game that has severe punishment for mismanaging it's primary mechanic. On top of that even if it's GM traits are good you still can choose only one. If Holosmith gets nerfed without dealing with other professions first he'll just become a free kill.

> >

> > So the trait that removes built up heat on dodge, vent exhaust means “there is no holosmith trait that removes heat built up”? You literally contradicted yourself in the first 2 sentences.

> >

> > If you overheat it’s because you played badly or you were completely, utterly outplayed. Managing cool downs is PvP 101, I thought we were passed this as an excuse.

>

> I acknowledge both sides of the argument,

>

> - You shouldn't overheat ever

>

> Vs.

>

> - You're harshly punished for simply running out of resources

>

> Here's my take on it: no Engineers overheat never. The average engi will overheat probably 2x a game in PvP. A master Engineer will overheat once every series of games, or if he's very intent on preventing that, possibly longer, like, 6+ hours.

>

> There's the possibility you can overheat through no fault of your own too. Immobilize preventing you from venting heat, chill making it up to a 10s CD to leave Photon Forge

>

> Actively killing yourself is a statistical relevant risk for every Holosmith player, no matter how good. So while you can mitigate up to 95% of the risk by playing well, you can't deny that you don't always play well, and it's fun to punish the enemy's free-kill overheated Holos - I do it all the time. It happens in PvP.

>

> Mechanics in place to expose/destroy you for not playing well, its extra risk, and Photon Forge should remain having a healthy risk/reward structure based on the fact that you should overheat rarely.

 

Yes I agree largely with this. I do not think it justifies some of the extraordinarily low cool downs of the kit vs the damage they do though, holo leap could certainly do with a cool down increase as could the rest of the skills, not huge, 2-5s depending on the skill and adjust the boons given (longer duration might on corona burst, longer stab on Eclipse trait) or benefits accordingly. When you miss important skills you shouldn’t be able to shrug and use it again a couple of seconds later.

 

To note I’m not just against this kind of thing for holo/engineer (it’s just a very good example) I’d like to see this class wide across the board where low cool downs go up and you have to properly time and save skills for the right moment.

[holodoc.5748]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Yes I agree largely with this. I do not think it justifies some of the extraordinarily low cool downs of the kit vs the damage they do though, holo leap could certainly do with a cool down increase as could the rest of the skills, not huge, 2-5s depending on the skill and adjust the boons given (longer duration might on corona burst, longer stab on Eclipse trait) or benefits accordingly. When you miss important skills you shouldn’t be able to shrug and use it again a couple of seconds later.

 

A 100-250% cooldown increase for the only even remotely reliable disengage skill on Holosmith with a 600 range in a game where every ranged profession can reach twice as much. Yeah, that sounds really well thought through.

[Chaith.8256]

Holo Leap isn't a damage upgrade over auto-ing, its purpose is combat mobility. You can literally spam autos to the same output. evading holo leap is even a little more efficient use of dodges than evading autos.

 

Sadly increasing the cooldown on holo leap only makes a slower Holosmith. I would agree if it were for the purpose of nerfing Holo's place in the meta.

[holodoc.5748]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> Holo Leap isn't a damage upgrade over auto-ing, its purpose is combat mobility. You can literally spam autos to the same output. evading holo leap is even a little more efficient use of dodges than evading autos.

>

> Sadly increasing the cooldown on holo leap only makes a slower Holosmith. I would agree if it were for the purpose of nerfing Holo's place in the meta.

 

^ This. For the first time since game release engi is not forced to be a local node bully and can actually contribute to other roles. In fact, that very Holo leap allows Holosmith to have some serious decap capability, something that was almost non-existent before simply because engi was lacking true mobility. I had matches where Holosmith's ability to quickly move through map and decap/cap nodes was deciding factor for the match outcome.

[McZero.5318]

A full rework of Scourge. The very concept is flawed for node PvP.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> Holo Leap isn't a damage upgrade over auto-ing, its purpose is combat mobility. You can literally spam autos to the same output. evading holo leap is even a little more efficient use of dodges than evading autos.

>

> Sadly increasing the cooldown on holo leap only makes a slower Holosmith. I would agree if it were for the purpose of nerfing Holo's place in the meta.

 

Tbh my issue is the low cool down which encourages spamming, increase the damage and give it a bigger range leap, sure all for that but slap it with a 6-8s cool down where avoiding or interrupting is punishing.

 

@"holodoc.5748" if you want escape run rocket boots, elixir S, U (and hope for smokescreen), CC the enemy first or rifle 5 you really can’t complain at not having the tools to escape on engineer, especially in its current state.