An Eye on the Deadeye

[Lyros.4673]

Leo G is correct when it comes to "feeling." Gamefeel is EXTREMELY important for all games, MMORPG or not, Action Game or not, RTS or not.

 

Deadeye made sense before: You dodged to dodge, and you had to save it because you were immobilized otherwise. While GW2 wasn't meant for immobile gameplay, it has a lot of arbitrary things that benefit you moving than not moving. HOWEVER, in its current form Deadeye is forced to dodge to get stealth, but said stealth is easily interrupted by any other source of damage, is difficult to get, and spends not only an ICD for kneel-dodge stealth but ENDURANCE as well.

 

You shouldn't need to bloody dodge into stealth. That sounds like it should be a straight passive trait option for the stealth line. On top of that, Kneel SHOULD provide stealth by default. The original Kneel interrupted your actions and activated stealth AFTER the animation was complete, giving it time for any other damage sources to be avoided (a brief window) that allowed you to use your one decent utility on Deadeye's Rifle: Cursed Bullet. Even before however, Cursed Bullet was subject to the SAME PAINS that Death's Judgement is now facing.

 

It's literally just an arbitrary mess of poor gameplay right now, and it IS bad. Deadeye should be a SIMPLE class to play, but be high risk and reward due to the sacrifice of mobility for a class that already has the lowest effective health in the game with no ways to mitigate it like Elementalist's strengths in sheer, raw utility.

 

 

[Tashigi.3159]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> I'd argue that *THE* actual problem is that Anet feels it's perfectly fine to just remove parts of their game and replace them on the grounds of "we feel like it". They did this with Guardian Spirit weapons, they did this with Mesmer Phantasms and now they're doing it with Deadeye Malice play-style. Not saying that Anet have no power to change the aspects of their own game, because they have all the power to do so. HOWEVER, to retain good relations with players, the best approach is to make such drastic changes only when absolutely necessary and after exhausting several other options.

>

> When you set the precedence of change-on-a-whim, no test servers, a mentality to never take feedback into consideration (name the amount of changes that were rolled back or diverted because of player feedback), you set an atmosphere that can be destructive for your product.

>

> Regardless of if something turns out to be a buff or not, many players don't care about min/max buffs but mostly about aesthetics and "feeling" (take a look at politics and you'll understand that). The ultimate and best solution is to do as much to keep the feel, style and use of the game the same and being creative about how you implement change, in the current and the future. This requires forethought, planning and cooperation (TEST SERVER!).

This is the sad state of affairs we're in.

Everything you just wrote is how I am feeling right now about this mess.

 

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > Can we give backstab and DJ the Blurred Frenzy treatment and buff the hell out of those two skills in pve? It'd be a nice dps boost and an easy split. Then fix the irritating thing with the stealth on dodge and see where we're at then?

> > >

> > > I get that some people really liked the previous incarnation of Malice - I liked how the dmg increase applied to all my attacks, too. But let's be honest, the whole 'stalking' thing was horribly unfun to play against. YOU may have fun marking someone, then waiting for malice to build or w/e, then smashing your opponent, but it's an awful pvp mechanic.

> > >

> > > Pve wise, they definitely need some love, but I'm not quite sure why there are some people complaining that...they have to use a core profession mechanic? Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly - I found DE in pve to be utterly, mindnumbingly boring before. Now it's kinda mildly more interesting because I'm rewarded more for making good use of stealth, but you certainly don't see me complaining that I have to use shade skills for scourge to be effective, shroud for a reaper/core necro, or that playing a class involves...playing that class.

> > >

> > > ANet could also stand to sprinkle some more stealth access around tbh. I run dp/rifle in all game modes, but I feel bad for those who wanted to move away from rifle, stealth utilities (could of the stealth utilities could maybe do with some fenangling - lower cooldown, lower stealth duration, yadday adda), etc. There definitely is a difference between being able to easily access stealth and not doing so, and just having to sacrifice far too much to get stealth (say...a sword/SB setup or something)

> >

> > I understand your viewpoint but, killing an entire mechanic just to fix one build that could have been easily fixed in another manner without breaking the Malice system to the point it only benefits a select few who are willing to conform to that style of play is ludicrous. Also it's not just some of the players it's a good majority of the Deadeye player base. Or if anything the ones who love and understand the rifle, which again is the majority of the Deadeye player base.

> >

> > Simply buffing the stealth skills won't solve the underlying problem of the Specialization itself.

>

> I wouldn't presume to guess the statistics of the change. All the teefs I know have been loving the changes. That certainly doesn't mean that others who have groups of friends/guilds with teefs hating the change are invalid, but...their exp doesn't invalidate mine, and vice versa.

 

This isn't a debate about your experience vs another, it's about the terms and conditions that facilitate change. Because you could very well be on the opposite side of the fence the next time Anet decides to change something drastically, and then where do you argue from? Would you contradict yourself or support the change even at the detriment of yourself and others?

 

 

 

[Specialka.7290]

They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

 

It was because the system was crap, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > Can we give backstab and DJ the Blurred Frenzy treatment and buff the hell out of those two skills in pve? It'd be a nice dps boost and an easy split. Then fix the irritating thing with the stealth on dodge and see where we're at then?

> > > >

> > > > I get that some people really liked the previous incarnation of Malice - I liked how the dmg increase applied to all my attacks, too. But let's be honest, the whole 'stalking' thing was horribly unfun to play against. YOU may have fun marking someone, then waiting for malice to build or w/e, then smashing your opponent, but it's an awful pvp mechanic.

> > > >

> > > > Pve wise, they definitely need some love, but I'm not quite sure why there are some people complaining that...they have to use a core profession mechanic? Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly - I found DE in pve to be utterly, mindnumbingly boring before. Now it's kinda mildly more interesting because I'm rewarded more for making good use of stealth, but you certainly don't see me complaining that I have to use shade skills for scourge to be effective, shroud for a reaper/core necro, or that playing a class involves...playing that class.

> > > >

> > > > ANet could also stand to sprinkle some more stealth access around tbh. I run dp/rifle in all game modes, but I feel bad for those who wanted to move away from rifle, stealth utilities (could of the stealth utilities could maybe do with some fenangling - lower cooldown, lower stealth duration, yadday adda), etc. There definitely is a difference between being able to easily access stealth and not doing so, and just having to sacrifice far too much to get stealth (say...a sword/SB setup or something)

> > >

> > > I understand your viewpoint but, killing an entire mechanic just to fix one build that could have been easily fixed in another manner without breaking the Malice system to the point it only benefits a select few who are willing to conform to that style of play is ludicrous. Also it's not just some of the players it's a good majority of the Deadeye player base. Or if anything the ones who love and understand the rifle, which again is the majority of the Deadeye player base.

> > >

> > > Simply buffing the stealth skills won't solve the underlying problem of the Specialization itself.

> >

> > I wouldn't presume to guess the statistics of the change. All the teefs I know have been loving the changes. That certainly doesn't mean that others who have groups of friends/guilds with teefs hating the change are invalid, but...their exp doesn't invalidate mine, and vice versa.

>

> This isn't a debate about your experience vs another, it's about the terms and conditions that facilitate change. Because you could very well be on the opposite side of the fence the next time Anet decides to change something drastically, and then where do you argue from? Would you contradict yourself or support the change even at the detriment of yourself and others?

>

>

>

 

The paragraph below the one that's showing in your quote is extremely relevant. I never made it about personal experience - it was an example to prove a point when I addressed their usage of 'everyone who loves rifle' and all that jazz. I do disagree with anet's REASON for doing this...but I have very little against the results - malice pre-change was...dare I say it, extremely simple. IIRC they said they changed it because it was too hard to understand, which I found absolutely bamboozling. I found it boring and too easy to understand/work with.

 

I'm more interested in the game-related aspects of the change, but I freely acknowledge that the change came out of left field.

 

Edit: Checked my posts and I see exactly one thumbs up for both. Mystery fellow, who are you? Enlighten me to your presence O.o

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > > Can we give backstab and DJ the Blurred Frenzy treatment and buff the hell out of those two skills in pve? It'd be a nice dps boost and an easy split. Then fix the irritating thing with the stealth on dodge and see where we're at then?

> > > > >

> > > > > I get that some people really liked the previous incarnation of Malice - I liked how the dmg increase applied to all my attacks, too. But let's be honest, the whole 'stalking' thing was horribly unfun to play against. YOU may have fun marking someone, then waiting for malice to build or w/e, then smashing your opponent, but it's an awful pvp mechanic.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pve wise, they definitely need some love, but I'm not quite sure why there are some people complaining that...they have to use a core profession mechanic? Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly - I found DE in pve to be utterly, mindnumbingly boring before. Now it's kinda mildly more interesting because I'm rewarded more for making good use of stealth, but you certainly don't see me complaining that I have to use shade skills for scourge to be effective, shroud for a reaper/core necro, or that playing a class involves...playing that class.

> > > > >

> > > > > ANet could also stand to sprinkle some more stealth access around tbh. I run dp/rifle in all game modes, but I feel bad for those who wanted to move away from rifle, stealth utilities (could of the stealth utilities could maybe do with some fenangling - lower cooldown, lower stealth duration, yadday adda), etc. There definitely is a difference between being able to easily access stealth and not doing so, and just having to sacrifice far too much to get stealth (say...a sword/SB setup or something)

> > > >

> > > > I understand your viewpoint but, killing an entire mechanic just to fix one build that could have been easily fixed in another manner without breaking the Malice system to the point it only benefits a select few who are willing to conform to that style of play is ludicrous. Also it's not just some of the players it's a good majority of the Deadeye player base. Or if anything the ones who love and understand the rifle, which again is the majority of the Deadeye player base.

> > > >

> > > > Simply buffing the stealth skills won't solve the underlying problem of the Specialization itself.

> > >

> > > I wouldn't presume to guess the statistics of the change. All the teefs I know have been loving the changes. That certainly doesn't mean that others who have groups of friends/guilds with teefs hating the change are invalid, but...their exp doesn't invalidate mine, and vice versa.

> >

> > This isn't a debate about your experience vs another, it's about the terms and conditions that facilitate change. Because you could very well be on the opposite side of the fence the next time Anet decides to change something drastically, and then where do you argue from? Would you contradict yourself or support the change even at the detriment of yourself and others?

> >

> >

> >

>

> The paragraph below the one that's showing in your quote is extremely relevant. I never made it about personal experience - it was an example to prove a point when I addressed their usage of 'everyone who loves rifle' and all that jazz. I do disagree with anet's REASON for doing this...but I have very little against the results - malice pre-change was...dare I say it, extremely simple. IIRC they said they changed it because it was too hard to understand, which I found absolutely bamboozling. I found it boring and too easy to understand/work with.

 

What I fear is that they didn't change it for the reasons stated (your recollection is correct, they said it was "bland" and traits "conflicted" and malic interaction was too "complex") but rather just to balance an aspect of the game that was out of hand (the stealth camping Deadeye deathsquads in WvW, perhaps).

 

That's even worse practice than changing things on a whim.

 

Also, I know they have test server publishing capabilities...

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> > > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > > > Can we give backstab and DJ the Blurred Frenzy treatment and buff the hell out of those two skills in pve? It'd be a nice dps boost and an easy split. Then fix the irritating thing with the stealth on dodge and see where we're at then?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I get that some people really liked the previous incarnation of Malice - I liked how the dmg increase applied to all my attacks, too. But let's be honest, the whole 'stalking' thing was horribly unfun to play against. YOU may have fun marking someone, then waiting for malice to build or w/e, then smashing your opponent, but it's an awful pvp mechanic.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pve wise, they definitely need some love, but I'm not quite sure why there are some people complaining that...they have to use a core profession mechanic? Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly - I found DE in pve to be utterly, mindnumbingly boring before. Now it's kinda mildly more interesting because I'm rewarded more for making good use of stealth, but you certainly don't see me complaining that I have to use shade skills for scourge to be effective, shroud for a reaper/core necro, or that playing a class involves...playing that class.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ANet could also stand to sprinkle some more stealth access around tbh. I run dp/rifle in all game modes, but I feel bad for those who wanted to move away from rifle, stealth utilities (could of the stealth utilities could maybe do with some fenangling - lower cooldown, lower stealth duration, yadday adda), etc. There definitely is a difference between being able to easily access stealth and not doing so, and just having to sacrifice far too much to get stealth (say...a sword/SB setup or something)

> > > > >

> > > > > I understand your viewpoint but, killing an entire mechanic just to fix one build that could have been easily fixed in another manner without breaking the Malice system to the point it only benefits a select few who are willing to conform to that style of play is ludicrous. Also it's not just some of the players it's a good majority of the Deadeye player base. Or if anything the ones who love and understand the rifle, which again is the majority of the Deadeye player base.

> > > > >

> > > > > Simply buffing the stealth skills won't solve the underlying problem of the Specialization itself.

> > > >

> > > > I wouldn't presume to guess the statistics of the change. All the teefs I know have been loving the changes. That certainly doesn't mean that others who have groups of friends/guilds with teefs hating the change are invalid, but...their exp doesn't invalidate mine, and vice versa.

> > >

> > > This isn't a debate about your experience vs another, it's about the terms and conditions that facilitate change. Because you could very well be on the opposite side of the fence the next time Anet decides to change something drastically, and then where do you argue from? Would you contradict yourself or support the change even at the detriment of yourself and others?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The paragraph below the one that's showing in your quote is extremely relevant. I never made it about personal experience - it was an example to prove a point when I addressed their usage of 'everyone who loves rifle' and all that jazz. I do disagree with anet's REASON for doing this...but I have very little against the results - malice pre-change was...dare I say it, extremely simple. IIRC they said they changed it because it was too hard to understand, which I found absolutely bamboozling. I found it boring and too easy to understand/work with.

>

> What I fear is that they didn't change it for the reasons stated (your recollection is correct, they said it was "bland" and traits "conflicted" and malic interaction was too "complex") but rather just to balance an aspect of the game that was out of hand (the stealth camping Deadeye deathsquads in WvW, perhaps).

>

> That's even worse practice than changing things on a whim.

>

> Also, I know they have test server publishing capabilities...

 

Eh, fair, if a bit...conspiracy theory for my taste. I highly doubt anet would go through that much trouble just for one setup when they could've done it much, much, muuuuuuch easier. Or maybe they just suck at phrasing. I for one have never seen any complaints on the forums about DE being difficult to understand. The rifle and duel pistol spammers crawling all over the place certainly don't point to that conclusion, either.

 

Edit: I'm leaning more and more to just sucky phrasing.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Specialka.7290" said:

> They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

>

> It was because the system was crap, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

 

The current problem would have been circumvented had the devs released the elite specs on a test server to those that pre-ordered PoF, tested the specs for a couple of months and made *meaningful* observations and changes and then released the DE with the current malice style (or very soon after release if the resources weren't available to change it before the official release). After you set up the profession spec and release it, you only change it if unexpected outcomes arise which usually only happen when less-than-optimal forethought was used in balancing the spec in the first place.

 

Even if the result ends up being crappy, boring and bland, that is the crap-bland-borring flavor of those that pick that spec. The imparative should then be "don't make that mistake again" for the next set released.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> > > > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > > > > Can we give backstab and DJ the Blurred Frenzy treatment and buff the hell out of those two skills in pve? It'd be a nice dps boost and an easy split. Then fix the irritating thing with the stealth on dodge and see where we're at then?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I get that some people really liked the previous incarnation of Malice - I liked how the dmg increase applied to all my attacks, too. But let's be honest, the whole 'stalking' thing was horribly unfun to play against. YOU may have fun marking someone, then waiting for malice to build or w/e, then smashing your opponent, but it's an awful pvp mechanic.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Pve wise, they definitely need some love, but I'm not quite sure why there are some people complaining that...they have to use a core profession mechanic? Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly - I found DE in pve to be utterly, mindnumbingly boring before. Now it's kinda mildly more interesting because I'm rewarded more for making good use of stealth, but you certainly don't see me complaining that I have to use shade skills for scourge to be effective, shroud for a reaper/core necro, or that playing a class involves...playing that class.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ANet could also stand to sprinkle some more stealth access around tbh. I run dp/rifle in all game modes, but I feel bad for those who wanted to move away from rifle, stealth utilities (could of the stealth utilities could maybe do with some fenangling - lower cooldown, lower stealth duration, yadday adda), etc. There definitely is a difference between being able to easily access stealth and not doing so, and just having to sacrifice far too much to get stealth (say...a sword/SB setup or something)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I understand your viewpoint but, killing an entire mechanic just to fix one build that could have been easily fixed in another manner without breaking the Malice system to the point it only benefits a select few who are willing to conform to that style of play is ludicrous. Also it's not just some of the players it's a good majority of the Deadeye player base. Or if anything the ones who love and understand the rifle, which again is the majority of the Deadeye player base.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Simply buffing the stealth skills won't solve the underlying problem of the Specialization itself.

> > > > >

> > > > > I wouldn't presume to guess the statistics of the change. All the teefs I know have been loving the changes. That certainly doesn't mean that others who have groups of friends/guilds with teefs hating the change are invalid, but...their exp doesn't invalidate mine, and vice versa.

> > > >

> > > > This isn't a debate about your experience vs another, it's about the terms and conditions that facilitate change. Because you could very well be on the opposite side of the fence the next time Anet decides to change something drastically, and then where do you argue from? Would you contradict yourself or support the change even at the detriment of yourself and others?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > The paragraph below the one that's showing in your quote is extremely relevant. I never made it about personal experience - it was an example to prove a point when I addressed their usage of 'everyone who loves rifle' and all that jazz. I do disagree with anet's REASON for doing this...but I have very little against the results - malice pre-change was...dare I say it, extremely simple. IIRC they said they changed it because it was too hard to understand, which I found absolutely bamboozling. I found it boring and too easy to understand/work with.

> >

> > What I fear is that they didn't change it for the reasons stated (your recollection is correct, they said it was "bland" and traits "conflicted" and malic interaction was too "complex") but rather just to balance an aspect of the game that was out of hand (the stealth camping Deadeye deathsquads in WvW, perhaps).

> >

> > That's even worse practice than changing things on a whim.

> >

> > Also, I know they have test server publishing capabilities...

>

> Eh, fair, if a bit...conspiracy theory for my taste. I highly doubt anet would go through that much trouble just for one setup when they could've done it much, much, muuuuuuch easier. Or maybe they just suck at phrasing. I for one have never seen any complaints on the forums about DE being difficult to understand. The rifle and duel pistol spammers crawling all over the place certainly don't point to that conclusion, either.

 

I'm willing to give Anet the benefit of the doubt (I say it is a fear, not my opinion) but I'm also willing to just live with their mistakes as well. If Deadeye turned out boring and bland, I'll take it and play the spec when I feel like something sniper-ish even it it's boring and bland.

[Aistos.5174]

> @"Specialka.7290" said:

> They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

>

> It was because the system was crap, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

 

You perfectly name the problem: Now we _have_ to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.

All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

 

If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.

For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.

And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

 

There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

[Vulcaruss.9567]

> @"Specialka.7290" said:

> They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

>

> It was because the system was crap, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

 

You sound like those world of warcraft developers who overhauled their classes every expansion on the simple reason of "To keep things fun and interesting." While not considering the simplestic, fun, easy to learn and fluid nature of what came before.

 

Boring you say? It was crap and bland? That my friend is your opinion. Why did you play Deadeye at all then if it was boring and bland? Not everyone shares your opinion, neither do they share my opinion collectively. Regardless the old system was simplistic and easy to learn and use.

[Specialka.7290]

> @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> > @"Specialka.7290" said:

> > They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

> >

> > It was because the system was crap, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

>

> You sound like those world of warcraft developers who overhauled their classes every expansion on the simple reason of "To keep things fun and interesting." While not considering the simplestic, fun, easy to learn and fluid nature of what came before.

>

> Boring you say? It was crap and bland? That my friend is your opinion. Why did you play Deadeye at all then if it was boring and bland? Not everyone shares your opinion, neither do they share my opinion collectively. Regardless the old system was simplistic and easy to learn and use.

 

You said it yourself. Easy to learn and use and easy to master makes a bland and boring gameplay.

[Wondrouswall.7169]

Not sure how Peripheral Vision was esoteric. Description was fine and it fit well with the bottom row of support traits since it added additional boons to allies and damage to nearby enemies.

 

Now, it's been replaced with Premeditation. Premeditation is fine as a trait, but doesn't fit the bottom line about using stolen skills. Meanwhile, Collateral Damage was added, which is a weak trait and does AoE like Peripheral Vision but passively activates when killing a foe.

 

I Would like to see Peripheral Vision return and Premeditation replace Collateral Damage.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Aistos.5174" said:

> > @"Specialka.7290" said:

> > They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

> >

> > It was because the system was crap, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

>

> You perfectly name the problem: Now we _have_ to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.

> All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

>

> If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.

> For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.

> And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

>

> There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

 

THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

[Vulcaruss.9567]

> @"Specialka.7290" said:

> > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> > > @"Specialka.7290" said:

> > > They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

> > >

> > > It was because the system was crap, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

> >

> > You sound like those world of warcraft developers who overhauled their classes every expansion on the simple reason of "To keep things fun and interesting." While not considering the simplestic, fun, easy to learn and fluid nature of what came before.

> >

> > Boring you say? It was crap and bland? That my friend is your opinion. Why did you play Deadeye at all then if it was boring and bland? Not everyone shares your opinion, neither do they share my opinion collectively. Regardless the old system was simplistic and easy to learn and use.

>

> You said it yourself. Easy to learn and use and easy to master makes a bland and boring gameplay.

 

I never said it was Easy to Master, that perma stealth build wasn't easy to use for everyone. Nor was the learning curve for Deadeye non-existent, like all Thief related builds it takes a certain skill and timing to play effeciently as well as initiative management. It is in no way easy to master right off the bat.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Tashigi.3159" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > Yeah sorry, but that's not a fact, that's called an opinion.

> > I am a DE that uses a rifle and I'm more potent than ever.

>

> Yeah, in WVW/PVP you are.

> Care to explain why even benchmark submitters are refusing to even spend time on Rifle DE and all the attention is going to D/D DE?

> I don't know, maybe it has to do with the wooping 5.5K DPS loss, which gets even worse when you glitch out of stealth. People are reporting a kitten 9K DPS loss in some cases and you mean to tell me you are somehow more potent now? Lol

 

Yes, in WvW, the game mode that I play, I am more potent.

 

An incredibly low percentage of people care about benchmarks, and an even lower percentage of those people who care about them *actually hit those benchmarks*. Thus the word...benchmark. Raid players are a very small minority but for some reason are among the loudest of players, especially right now.

[Aistos.5174]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Aistos.5174" said:

> > > @"Specialka.7290" said:

> > > They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

> > >

> > > It was because the system was crap, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

> >

> > You perfectly name the problem: Now we _have_ to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.

> > All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

> >

> > If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.

> > For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.

> > And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

> >

> > There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

>

> THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

 

I don‘t like using the same skill over and over again. With the removal of cursed bullet and the unnecessary stealth need of DJ they took away some main mechanics for me. And gave me this useless smoke wall instead. Of course I could arrange with this new skill set but it just doesn‘t make sense to me and takes the fun out of the game. And for me a game like GW 2 has to be fun.

 

May I ask if you for yourself see any benefits in the new rifle skills (not malice changes)? I‘m just interested...

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Aistos.5174" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > @"Aistos.5174" said:

> > > > @"Specialka.7290" said:

> > > > They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

> > > >

> > > > It was because the system was crap, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

> > >

> > > You perfectly name the problem: Now we _have_ to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.

> > > All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

> > >

> > > If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.

> > > For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.

> > > And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

> > >

> > > There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

> >

> > THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

>

> I don‘t like using the same skill over and over again. With the removal of cursed bullet and the unnecessary stealth need of DJ they took away some main mechanics for me. And gave me this useless smoke wall instead. Of course I could arrange with this new skill set but it just doesn‘t make sense to me and takes the fun out of the game. And for me a game like GW 2 has to be fun.

>

> May I ask if you for yourself see any benefits in the new rifle skills (not malice changes)? I‘m just interested...

 

Certainly. Crouching rifle 4 is amazing and would definitely cover, or compensate, for the removable of unbockable from DJ. You can fire away at opponents pretty much freely without fear of ranged retaliation (except for unblockables obv). It's also a smoke field, so 20% to blind people you shoot at with the rifle. And you can use it with rifle 4 standing to get stealth. It's an amazing skill.

 

And if you cast it in all four directions, it makes a pound sign xD The new maleficent GM trait thingy gives amazing sustain and pressure + boons such that you don't have to take trickery anymore. I can also fire off DJs more frequently, albeit lower damage (but I odn't need to hit someone for 30k - that's overkill).

[Vulcaruss.9567]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Tashigi.3159" said:

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > Yeah sorry, but that's not a fact, that's called an opinion.

> > > I am a DE that uses a rifle and I'm more potent than ever.

> >

> > Yeah, in WVW/PVP you are.

> > Care to explain why even benchmark submitters are refusing to even spend time on Rifle DE and all the attention is going to D/D DE?

> > I don't know, maybe it has to do with the wooping 5.5K DPS loss, which gets even worse when you glitch out of stealth. People are reporting a kitten 9K DPS loss in some cases and you mean to tell me you are somehow more potent now? Lol

>

> Yes, in WvW, the game mode that I play, I am more potent.

>

> An incredibly low percentage of people care about benchmarks, and an even lower percentage of those people who care about them *actually hit those benchmarks*. Thus the word...benchmark. Raid players are a very small minority but for some reason are among the loudest of players, especially right now.

 

If I may clarify I'm not a raider. I've never set foot in a raid at all since their conception, I find raid culture toxic and the elitisim that follows irritating.

 

I'm more your general PvE player who likes to duel his friends in his Guild Hall Arena. My moto is:

 

"If I'm going to play the game I'm atleast going to be proficient at it. I may not be esports, pro-league or Raid Master good, but I'm going to play to the best of my abilities and have fun doing it."

[Aistos.5174]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Aistos.5174" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > @"Aistos.5174" said:

> > > > > @"Specialka.7290" said:

> > > > > They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

> > > > >

> > > > > It was because the system was crap, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

> > > >

> > > > You perfectly name the problem: Now we _have_ to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.

> > > > All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

> > > >

> > > > If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.

> > > > For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.

> > > > And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

> > > >

> > > > There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

> > >

> > > THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

> >

> > I don‘t like using the same skill over and over again. With the removal of cursed bullet and the unnecessary stealth need of DJ they took away some main mechanics for me. And gave me this useless smoke wall instead. Of course I could arrange with this new skill set but it just doesn‘t make sense to me and takes the fun out of the game. And for me a game like GW 2 has to be fun.

> >

> > May I ask if you for yourself see any benefits in the new rifle skills (not malice changes)? I‘m just interested...

>

> Certainly. Crouching rifle 4 is amazing and would definitely cover, or compensate, for the removable of unbockable from DJ. You can fire away at opponents pretty much freely without fear of ranged retaliation (except for unblockables obv). It's also a smoke field, so 20% to blind people you shoot at with the rifle. And you can use it with rifle 4 standing to get stealth. It's an amazing skill.

>

> And if you cast it in all four directions, it makes a pound sign xD The new maleficent GM trait thingy gives amazing sustain and pressure + boons such that you don't have to take trickery anymore. I can also fire off DJs more frequently, albeit lower damage (but I odn't need to hit someone for 30k - that's overkill).

 

Ok, nice if it works for you:) I just can‘t see the reason for this smoke screen that much because the biggest danger for me as DE always were melee classes (PvP wise).

And it reminds me just to much at the bad experiences with SWTOR -.-

 

But maybe, if they leave it like this (what I seriously fear), I have to stay away for a (long) while and then start all over with it...

 

Edit: And the need of stealth for DJ I can‘t comprehend either - DJ spamming is already prevented by the consumption of malice. There is no necessary and decent connection between these two mechanics at all.

[Vulcaruss.9567]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Aistos.5174" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > @"Aistos.5174" said:

> > > > > @"Specialka.7290" said:

> > > > > They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

> > > > >

> > > > > It was because the system was crap, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

> > > >

> > > > You perfectly name the problem: Now we _have_ to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.

> > > > All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

> > > >

> > > > If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.

> > > > For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.

> > > > And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

> > > >

> > > > There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

> > >

> > > THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

> >

> > I don‘t like using the same skill over and over again. With the removal of cursed bullet and the unnecessary stealth need of DJ they took away some main mechanics for me. And gave me this useless smoke wall instead. Of course I could arrange with this new skill set but it just doesn‘t make sense to me and takes the fun out of the game. And for me a game like GW 2 has to be fun.

> >

> > May I ask if you for yourself see any benefits in the new rifle skills (not malice changes)? I‘m just interested...

>

> Certainly. Crouching rifle 4 is amazing and would definitely cover, or compensate, for the removable of unbockable from DJ. You can fire away at opponents pretty much freely without fear of ranged retaliation (except for unblockables obv). It's also a smoke field, so 20% to blind people you shoot at with the rifle. And you can use it with rifle 4 standing to get stealth. It's an amazing skill.

>

> And if you cast it in all four directions, it makes a pound sign xD The new maleficent GM trait thingy gives amazing sustain and pressure + boons such that you don't have to take trickery anymore. I can also fire off DJs more frequently, albeit lower damage (but I odn't need to hit someone for 30k - that's overkill).

 

You're actually defending that smoke wall abomination?... it's literally Smoke Screen that can be spammed infinitely and maintained with no worry of running out of initiative by itself. If you want to make a way for Deadeye to have projectile defense why not take a page out of swtor's book on the smuggler for crying out loud and give the Deadeye permanent cover.... the end result is the same.

[Zephyr.5382]

> @"Specialka.7290" said:

> Easy to learn and use and easy to master makes a bland and boring gameplay.

 

_Please_, for the love of The Six, stop putting it so matter-of-factly.

[Vulcaruss.9567]

Okay I'm finally home, All my messages as of today have been from my phone. Now then I want to give a brief history of the Thief for those players that constantly insist Deadeye needs to be more mobile and active. And a Reminder to the Development team that made these change to what the original goal and purpose of what the Deadeye was suppose to represent and be, I feel that purpose seems to have been lost to the Literal Sands of Time here...

 

As everyone here knows This game leans more towards the Action, and constant movement combat than most MMO's. Thief in of itself, since the beginning of the game before the age of Elite Specializations been one of the most if not THE most Mobile class in the game, and was almost always included in Serious SPvP line ups. In WvW it was the literal WoW Rogue of the game from the usage of it's Perma-Stealth builds to pick of lone roamers and zerg stragglers. It's had it's ups and downs but it's always had a place, somewhere.

 

Fast Forward to Heart of Thorns, the Evolution of the Thief, the Daredevil, amplified the Thief's already impressive arsenal of mobility and evasion abilities immensely, only rivaled today by Mirage and Mirage Cloak evasion builds. Daredevil dominated in single combat in SPvP and WvW, with it's quick kills and Finishing move Elite skill. Staff, Daggers, Or Pistols, Daredevils were not to be taken lightly.

 

Now we Arrive at Path of Fire. The community demand for a Rifle Sniper Thief is in full swing and step only gaining momentum from Heart of Thorns onward. The Developers decided to take a different approach to the new Elite Specialization, the Deadeye. The Elite Spec was designed to have Melee Strength ranged attacks, at the cost of significant mobility loss to compensate for this bonus in attack power. This change can be seen in Deadeyes Mark which replaced the Iconic Steal both Core Thief and Daredevil still use. As well with the Kneel skill which rooted the Deadeye in place and only allowed for Dodges, and movement skills like Retreat, Roll for Imitative, Shadow Step and Shadow Flare, to move the player around with out disrupting the Kneeling position and allowed the Deadeye to keep pressing the attack with out getting up.

 

The Malice system was put in place to help the Deadeye Achieve the Melee strength damage scores. With out it there damage was comparable to an ordinary ranged class. Malice charged over time, but charged faster if the Deadeye was attacking, this system was meant to give the opponent if the situation was PvP centered time to prepare, react, and anticipate when the Deadeye was going to try to strike with it's strongest attacks.

 

This setup had the potential for plenty of counter play if the attacked player in question knew what they were getting into to. Yes Many professions have ways to deal with a Deadeye, but Spellbreaker has the best chance of the group with Magebane Tether and Sight Beyond Sight, and Shadow Refuge is easily foiled with a well placed Stomp, Endure pain can negate physical damage to close distance and if they carry a shield to both stop and reflect projectiles back in their face. The Perma-Stealth build is not with out flaw. I personally built a Weaver build that could make a fool out of a Deadeye, And Dragon Hunter has plenty of stealth breaking ability's and immunity's to survive a Deadeye encounter.

 

It goes with out saying that the original Deadeye was Easy to start playing but took some effort to master, unless you're a no skill #3 Spamming Pistoleer... Deadeye doesn't need any more Mobility, it had enough to get the job done, and doesn't need to be force focused around Stealth for improvement. Deadeye Damage was indeed sub par before, but that didn't stop me and many others from playing and enjoying the class.

 

This new Malice system... I know some praise it, some despise it, myself included. The way it is now only limits the possibility's of what the Deadeye can do going forward, where the old system was flexible enough to be shaped to the users desires within certain constraints... IE: Condition Damage. But as stated before the Condition side could of been fixed with a slight tweak to Malice. Now we have 2 Energy resources to Juggle, and an Endurance gauge being used for Offensive play rather than Defensive as Dodging should be used for, especially on a thief, that already has less mobility than it's Core, and Elite Spec counter parts.

 

So I'll end this by asking those who have been on the counter argument of the spectrum of the Deadeye Changes who say they currently enjoy it. Take a closer look at what we had, what the classes was intended for at the start, and tell me. Is it's purpose and general intent still the same now as what it was before? If you still think it does well.. I can't exactly make a case that will convince you otherwise then.

[Scud.5067]

So.. after a small update, seems we can get Silent Scope's Stealth without Kneeling? Was that always the case?

 

Also seems a lot more reliable. Might be going batty, but still!

[Vulcaruss.9567]

> @"Scud.5067" said:

> So.. after a small update, seems we can get Silent Scope's Stealth without Kneeling?

>

> Also seems a lot more reliable. Might be going batty, but still!

 

That was like that before the patch you can get stealth while standing and holding a rifle if you dodge, but it goes on a 10 second CD, this CD is instantly reset should you go into a Kneel.