An Eye on the Deadeye

[Sodeni.6041]

I think Anet tried to make a second Mirage with modified stealth attacks instead of dodge-ambush attacks.

 

However, they missed the point.

 

**Every mirage has easy access to mirage cloak via dodging regardless off their build**.

 

Deadeye needs to be stealthed to do the malicious stealth attacks. But **you HAVE to use stealth utilities, traits and elites in order to use your new class mechanic.**

 

This is a major flaw of the Deadeye rework. Your build diversity is very limited if you take stealth utilities and traits.

 

If they gave the deadeye a F3 ability that lets them stealth for a short duration in order to do the malicious stealth attacks it would be a completely different story. *A new profession mechanic should not require you to use certain utilities or weapons (pistol offhand, dagger offhand) to benefit from it.*

 

If they did that they could then balance the malicious stealth attacks and improve the Deadeye further.

[Lucinellia.9247]

> This is a major flaw of the Deadeye rework. Your build diversity is very limited if you take stealth utilities and traits.

 

Absolutely and it is clear that Silent Scope granting stealth on dodge was supposed to be the solution but the ability is buggy, is limited to Rifle, introduces time where the Deadeye can't DPS (and Death's Judgement / 3RB are not strong enough to make up for that) and punishes a profession that is already immobile by limiting dodges as a mobility option.

 

The issues are so obvious in hindsight as well.

[Bramymond.7689]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

 

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

 

You are both making excellent arguments. I would appreciate some of that input on my discussion thread here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/40213/constructiv-discussion-about-core-thief-and-daredevil-in-the-wake-of-the-deadeye-rework#latest

 

I can’t help but realize that some part of this discussion also stems heavily from the distorted view of pure benchmarking.

 

[Specialka.7290]

I do not think a F3 ability would work out. It would be too easy to access stealth that way.

 

Unless they want thief to get an easy access, they should increase damage or DE Rifle, especially TRB and auto attack.

[Zedek.8932]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> > @"Volrath.1473" said:

> > Hate to say it but it is official...

> >

> > I have reactivate my wow account and with the expansion coming up in August... I'll come back next year to see how things are.

> >

> > Until then gl and hf.

> >

> > /Out

>

>

> Ironically, I got back into GW2 during 2015 because the class I was playing in another game felt gutted by a rework and the new play style didn't sit well with me and I started trying out older games I had drifted away from.

 

Same here. I just waited 1 week to settle and lurked, but it's official. RIOT disables champions, aNet does this, which is exactly the same.

It took me not even a day until I've spent 52€ on the instant for re-activating my FF14 account (Game time; HW and SB). The very. Same. Day.

It's unbelievably sad that this day really ruined a franchise* I've enjoyed to be at, really loved to put up everywhere (wallpapers, mentioning in talk with colleagues, pure enjoyment when busy - e.g. looking forward to play). Deadeye was beautiful. Really. Since beta week 2. It's the 2nd profession aNet destroys for no reason while Mesmer and others to a lesser extend run rampage. And then we get a clunky, immersion-killing (I just love this, so I am gonna repeat: A class designed around aim and firearms gets a smokescreen that destroys bullets), bugged, nerfed, unwanted and since over 10 days unfixed failure of a rework, it's too much to bare. I will not support this level of incompetence (no playtesting, no real player survey, no intention to fix bugs or evident problems since minute 1). I bought PoF for that profession. I feel somewhat betrayed.

 

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> I'll admit to being in a similar spot. Despite playing Guild Wars 2 pretty much exclusively since mid 2015, I've now started to dabble with Warframe, recently reactivated WoW and I'm thinking of downloading FFXIV again.

But, man, my Blackmage still plays the same since September, 21st of 2013....(Also 60fps+ and high polygone count is very refreshing) :-)

 


[Lucinellia.9247]

> @"Bramymond.7689" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

>

> > @"Miatela.5047" said:

>

> You are both making excellent arguments. I would appreciate some of that input on my discussion thread here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/40213/constructiv-discussion-about-core-thief-and-daredevil-in-the-wake-of-the-deadeye-rework#latest

>

> I can’t help but realize that some part of this discussion also stems heavily from the distorted view of pure benchmarking.

>

 

It absolutely does, which is why I'll always prefer to reference GW2Raidar logs and the numbers within them where possible. While we don't yet have a good enough sample size with the current patch, it is still informative to see the relative performance of Thief in the previous patch (Feb to May) when Thief was in a better relative position but was so underplayed that the total number of Thief logs (from Condition Daredevil to both Power builds through to Support Core Thief totaled about 10,000) was about a third of the number of Dragonhunter logs (which was close to 29,000).

 

That clearly points to a pretty endemic problem with Thief in instanced PvE. Benchmarking has a place, but it will obscure the issues. Benchmarking will have you believe that Thief is _only_ 11 - 14% behind competing choices such as Spellbreakers but masks the poor variety of Thief utility (like Stealth which isn't applicable to current instanced PvE beyond skipping in Fractals where the challenge is typically CM difficulty bosses), the weakness of the additional tools we bring (done better elsewhere by professions that bring more DPS / healing / support) and the issues with our damage patterns which has led to Thief being the least played PvE profession by GW2Raidar logs.

[ZeroSkitzo.5403]

Have they mentioned anywhere when these changes will come? Almost have my thief to 80 and leaning towards DD but these changes could sway me. I know it’s possible to unlock both but the PoF HPs so much easier than HoT unless you get a train :D

[Lucinellia.9247]

> @"ZeroSkitzo.5403" said:

> Have they mentioned anywhere when these changes will come? Almost have my thief to 80 and leaning towards DD but these changes could sway me. I know it’s possible to unlock both but the PoF HPs so much easier than HoT unless you get a train :D

 

We were told about a week ago that fixing the Silent Scope bug would take a few weeks. Depending on what Arenanet has planned in the way of content patches, that likely means anytime from this Tuesday (22/05) to the 5th of June.

 

We've had no comments on improving rifle Deadeye DPS or improving the gameplay flow of dagger/dagger. No comments on the rework leaving us without a real support option that is viable in a range of content.

 

There have been no comments or responses on resolving the longstanding issue of Thief performing poorly in DPS and utility compared with other options which has been stirred up by this rework.

 

Unless you are planning to gear the character with Ascended gear and tackle the more challenging PvE content (CM Fractals or Raids) you are fine to play pretty much anything. If you are thinking more seriously, you might want to consider another profession as things stand. I can't speak for PvP with any real current experience but Daredevil seems fine there. Hopefully someone will chime in with useful advice for that area of the game (and WvW!).

[ZeroSkitzo.5403]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> > @"ZeroSkitzo.5403" said:

> > Have they mentioned anywhere when these changes will come? Almost have my thief to 80 and leaning towards DD but these changes could sway me. I know it’s possible to unlock both but the PoF HPs so much easier than HoT unless you get a train :D

>

> We were told about a week ago that fixing the Silent Scope bug would take a few weeks. Depending on what Arenanet has planned in the way of content patches, that likely means anytime from this Tuesday (22/05) to the 5th of June.

>

> We've had no comments on improving rifle Deadeye DPS or improving the gameplay flow of dagger/dagger. No comments on the rework leaving us without a real support option that is viable in a range of content.

>

> There have been no comments or responses on resolving the longstanding issue of Thief performing poorly in DPS and utility compared with other options which has been stirred up by this rework.

>

> Unless you are planning to gear the character with Ascended gear and tackle the more challenging PvE content (CM Fractals or Raids) you are fine to play pretty much anything. If you are thinking more seriously, you might want to consider another profession as things stand. I can't speak for PvP with any real current experience but Daredevil seems fine there. Hopefully someone will chime in with useful advice for that area of the game (and WvW!).

 

Thanks for the info. I’ve got a warrior with both specs now that I enjoy but gets boring. I’m no hardcore player so I’m sure either will work, just depends on the gameplay. I like the aoe that daredevil offers which I don’t think deadeye can match in open world pve?

[Armaelus.6120]

I'm tired... tired to see how dev' cannot stop in destroying a thief's gameplay. Moreover, I don't understand why there were no discussion, no announcements on this changes before the patch. I have the impression that, every time they creat something good for the thief, they destroy it systematically.

 

Thief/Sniper was the last class I used to play, but now, I don't know where we go. I was enjoying to play the sniper before this changes. Today, I'm thinking to delete this game. I'll watch for dev's reacts on next days. Honestly, I think that they don't care about players who use the sniper. This is frustrating !

 

Somebody has a suggestion about an another MMO...? Otherwise, I believe that I am going to take Pillard of eternity 2...

[Lucinellia.9247]

> @"Zedek.8932" said:

> But, man, my Blackmage still plays the same since September, 21st of 2013....(Also 60fps+ and high polygone count is very refreshing) :-)

>

> 

 

Is that a dark themed Opera browser? Maybe there is a correlation between people playing underplayed classes and using a less popular browser? :p

[Astyrah.4015]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> We've had no comments on improving rifle Deadeye DPS or improving the gameplay flow of dagger/dagger.

 

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> No comments on the rework leaving us without a real support option that is viable in a range of content.

 

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> There have been no comments or responses on resolving the longstanding issue of Thief performing poorly in DPS and utility compared with other options which has been stirred up by this rework.

 

and when they do comment or reply, they would do so to posts that half-agree with them or are easy_to_answer_minor_concerns.

 

they never really respond directly to all the bigger issues even if we lay out all the facts here in the forums

 

even if they just gave a long consolidated response regarding everyone's concerns would be a step in the right direction.

 

but no! we aren't getting any so far and i fear that a lot of our problems re: thief here are probably going to get overlooked or straight up ignored.

 

[jenosmaverick.8694]

Uhm maybe we can spam support so they'll notice this more? I'm just a newbie and my thief is just lvl62. Am monitoring this thread and this just makes me wanna stop playing it till the devs finally fix it.

[Jack Redline.5379]

I can agree with most of these posts but what actually makes me feel worried is that since page 3 no Dev answered anything. I think they are really not satisfied with how we dislike their actions toward class. My point is THIS TREATMENT OF THIEF SUCKS and i hope if you read this you will take a time and read this thread dear devs i know you did a lot of job on DE but it really didnt work out as you expected. It sucks really bad and we need to get on a level of other classes or we are forced to play something we dont want those who dont want to wont do that and will leave. Thieves used to be cool and strong makes us cool and strong again. STRONG DOESNT MEEN WE WANT POWER BUILD FOCUSED TRAITS WE WANT OUR CONDI THIEVES STRONG AS WELL WE ARE THEIVES WE SHOULD POISON PPL ONLY BY STANDING NEAR BY WE ARE THE BAD GUYS DAMN IT

[Bramymond.7689]

> @"jenosmaverick.8694" said:

> Uhm maybe we can spam support so they'll notice this more? I'm just a newbie and my thief is just lvl62. Am monitoring this thread and this just makes me wanna stop playing it till the devs finally fix it.

 

You should never let the opinion of other people dictate what class you play. If you enjoy it, thats all the reason you need to keep going. Pls keep in mind, that thief overall isnt in a completely bad spot, people in the forums just tend to hyperbole and get very passionate about a lot of things. Deadeye rework left a lot to wish for, but it´s getting there. Thief is lacking behind the other classes a bit, but it´s still a nice class for beginners and still offers a high skill ceiling for mechanics and stuff that doesn´t directly correspond to more dps (like skipping, movement, stealth etc.). It´s also reliable, u can easily high on the dps-meters with the right build and enough skill/understanding of the bosses. Imho thief shines the most in fractals, especially aetherblade. You can blow peoples mind by skipping all the puzzles in the time they take to kill the 2nd trash group XD

[DragonSlayer.1087]

Increase the range to 2000, make #4 kneel stealth, heal skill should give you stealth if you hit a mark target.

[Jack Redline.5379]

 

> @"Bramymond.7689" said:

>

> You should never let the opinion of other people dictate what class you play. If you enjoy it, thats all the reason you need to keep going. Pls keep in mind, that thief overall isnt in a completely bad spot, people in the forums just tend to hyperbole and get very passionate about a lot of things. Deadeye rework left a lot to wish for, but it´s getting there. Thief is lacking behind the other classes a bit, but it´s still a nice class for beginners and still offers a high skill ceiling for mechanics and stuff that doesn´t directly correspond to more dps (like skipping, movement, stealth etc.). It´s also reliable, u can easily high on the dps-meters with the right build and enough skill/understanding of the bosses. Imho thief shines the most in fractals, especially aetherblade. You can blow peoples mind by skipping all the puzzles in the time they take to kill the 2nd trash group XD

 

I want 20kg of what this dude is smoking. I pay in bitcoin.

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

>

> > @"Bramymond.7689" said:

> >

> > You should never let the opinion of other people dictate what class you play. If you enjoy it, thats all the reason you need to keep going. Pls keep in mind, that thief overall isnt in a completely bad spot, people in the forums just tend to hyperbole and get very passionate about a lot of things. Deadeye rework left a lot to wish for, but it´s getting there. Thief is lacking behind the other classes a bit, but it´s still a nice class for beginners and still offers a high skill ceiling for mechanics and stuff that doesn´t directly correspond to more dps (like skipping, movement, stealth etc.). It´s also reliable, u can easily high on the dps-meters with the right build and enough skill/understanding of the bosses. Imho thief shines the most in fractals, especially aetherblade. You can blow peoples mind by skipping all the puzzles in the time they take to kill the 2nd trash group XD

>

> I want 20kg of what this dude is smoking. I pay in bitcoin.

 

you might never return if you'll be swallowin' the whole blue pill

[Bramymond.7689]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

>

> > @"Bramymond.7689" said:

> >

> > You should never let the opinion of other people dictate what class you play. If you enjoy it, thats all the reason you need to keep going. Pls keep in mind, that thief overall isnt in a completely bad spot, people in the forums just tend to hyperbole and get very passionate about a lot of things. Deadeye rework left a lot to wish for, but it´s getting there. Thief is lacking behind the other classes a bit, but it´s still a nice class for beginners and still offers a high skill ceiling for mechanics and stuff that doesn´t directly correspond to more dps (like skipping, movement, stealth etc.). It´s also reliable, u can easily high on the dps-meters with the right build and enough skill/understanding of the bosses. Imho thief shines the most in fractals, especially aetherblade. You can blow peoples mind by skipping all the puzzles in the time they take to kill the 2nd trash group XD

>

> I want 20kg of what this dude is smoking. I pay in bitcoin.

Funny enough, a colleague from work once said the same to me, when I came in for my shift at the crack of dawn with a big smile and an happy mood xD

It’s called positive attitude, u should try it.

[Lucinellia.9247]

Okay, I am going to be super cheeky but

 

@"Gaile Gray.6029" @"Robert Gee.9246"

 

Can we have an update about future changes? This patch fixing an obvious bug without anything else being touched or improved is a little worrying. I think the community would be very happy with more communication from you at this point.

 

Any comments about resolving thief having chronically low dps, burst and utility in PvE and now being the only profession without a viable support option would be greatly appreciated!

[Bramymond.7689]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> Okay, I am going to be super cheeky but

>

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" @"Robert Gee.9246"

>

> Can we have an update about future changes? This patch fixing an obvious bug without anything else being touched or improved is a little worrying. I think the community would be very happy with more communication from you at this point.

>

> Any comments about resolving thief having chronically low dps, burst and utility in PvE and now being the only profession without a viable support option would be greatly appreciated!

 

I would also like some feedback on why you would keep silent scope as it is. Many people have voiced that they don’t like to use a dodge for dps increases at all, except on daredevil and to some extend mirage.

 

[Tashigi.3159]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> Okay, I am going to be super cheeky but

>

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" @"Robert Gee.9246"

>

> Can we have an update about future changes? This patch fixing an obvious bug without anything else being touched or improved is a little worrying. I think the community would be very happy with more communication from you at this point.

>

> Any comments about resolving thief having chronically low dps, burst and utility in PvE and now being the only profession without a viable support option would be greatly appreciated!

 

Not just appreciated, at this point, it's the least they can do.

This change to Deadeye has been a sad rollercoaster but even before the changes, Thieves were already some of the lowest in DPS, while providing little to no utility.

 

I find it absolutely hilarious and just plain sad that the things you aimed to solve, were not a problem before the update to the spec.

You literally created these issues yourselves, with these changes.

 

> The main areas we're looking to address are:

>

> * Malice Complexity - Malice gain rules are obscure and don't allow much interaction from the Deadeye.

> * Rifle Flexibility - Rifle optimal damage combos are bland and the weapon lacks adaptability.

> * Trait Synergies - Minor traits fight with each other and there aren't strong choices at some tiers.

[Armaelus.6120]

I would like that Dev cancel the changes with the sniper and that they work properly what they want to do with this elite. I agree they have created a lot of issues that didn't exist before. I can't believe in 2018, it could be real...! I Wonder if they can realise there own mistake, tell the community it was nos intended and then, rollback the change in order to improve the futures changes.

I think it'll be welcome !

[Lucinellia.9247]

The rework was terrible and the lack of communication is getting close to that. As much as we've been asked to be nice and kind and constructive, this communication shouldn't be a one-way street.

 

It is beyond disheartening to be pulling 100th percentile Deadeye logs in raids at the moment and being thousands of DPS behind other classes that offer additional utility. Thief, outside of condi Daredevil on a select few bosses, has been this way for years now and I'd hoped that this rework would get us into a decent place.

 

It hasn't. The least that we could get is some reassurance that this is being actively looked at because it is starting to feel like this is how Deadeye and Thief is going to be for months.

 

Honestly, it is starting to feel like this lack of balance is because Arenanet can point to stat-swappable account bound gear and the ease of rolling a new character and be like, "eh, just do that". While some people might enjoy having multiple characters and jumping between them and constantly rerolling to be the flavour of the three months between balance patches, there are players that don't. I have multiple classes geared and tonight I've played Chronomancer, Herald, Renegade, Druid and Deadeye as the group needs but that isn't fun for me. That style of balance does nothing for people like myself who invest thousands of hours, hundreds of gold and considerable real world money into one character because that is the character we like and want to play and want to achieve things on (and certainly encounter design definitely doesn't help!). If we've come from other MMOs before, we look at the disparity between DPS, the lack of suitable Might generators, the unique boons that guarantee spots and the fact that Chronomancer has been the only viable Alacrity and Quickness providing "tank" for the past three years and see a company that struggles to make professions equitable. There isn't even the need to balance for gear progression, secondary systems or multiple difficulties (which Anet devs have boasted about making their jobs easier before) so that excuse isn't there to fall back on for bad balance.

 

This is getting really very tiring now.

[Bern.9613]

Been playing around with DE for the past couple, three weeks, in wvw and pve. Soooo what's the point of malice, besides telegraphing to your target that you're "out 'n a boot" trying to kill him? And why, oh why, was condi removal taken from Death's retreat? Death's Retreat, pffffft. It should be renamed Get Outta Dodge (if you can) Get loaded up with every condi in the game by a mirage/memser or scourge/necro and you might as well lay down because they watch you burn. Good luck getting out of more then one stun or immob. And stealth on dodge... with rifle.... only. Really? I'm just not feeling the DE. It's sooo..... Dare i say it? Sigh. It's so rangerish.