The concept of "balance"

[Ithilwen.1529]

I don't honestly believe the concept of "balance" is clearly understood.

 

Here's how I see it,

 

**Balance does not mean:** *place some secret edge so that my favorite class ________ will have an advantage.*

The argument of "shaking up the meta" by making one class OP on a rotational basis has been clearly shown to be ineffective.

 

**Balance does not mean:** *Make every class alike.*

The thinking seems to be: If every class has access to stealth or etc, then that ability is not OP. **This detracts from the game. It removes the "magic" of the various classes and styles when they are so similar.**

 

**Balance does not mean:** *Make the situation such that we return to the "zerker" meta of a couple of years ago.*

My Thai Chi instructor insisted that I practice as slowly as possible. **Speed covers up poor technique and unskilled movement.** Speed covers up flaws, but it doesn't cure them.

 

 

**Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.**

 

 

**How this can be achieved:** *Personal biases, interpersonal relationships and especially any grudges need to be left out of the decision making process.*

 

I could cite a specific example of personal bias, admitted on twitch, which led to the removal of a set of traits from the game. That change severely hampered a number of builds.

 

 

The lack of balance, and even deliberately unbalanced matches at times, has driven away players. Many of those are unlikely to try PvP again. Please, make the games even... I see this as a long term crisis in PvP.

[Orangensaft.7139]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.**

 

no it doesnt

 

The game is not balanced around 1 vs 1

The PvP part is balanced around 5 vs 5

and it is intended that you dont always have equal chance going into a 1v1 against *any* other class

for eample: Class X usually has an advantage vs class Y but a disadvantage vs class Z - so you need to have a good rotation as a team to always be in fights where you have an advantage

 

and shaking up the Meta doesnt mean making a new spec OP - it usually means nerfing the currently top builds a bit so players have to (have the chance to) come up with new builds to always keep fights interesting

but OFC there will always be one build that is currently seen as the best one in the new current meta then ...

and if it is truly OP then ofc Anet has to rebalance but they wont balance to make it 100% equal to every other class in 1vs1

 

 

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Orangensaft.7139" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.**

>

> no it doesnt

>

> The game is not balanced around 1 vs 1

> The PvP part is balanced around 5 vs 5

> and it is intended that you dont always have equal chance going into a 1v1 against *any* other class

> for eample: Class X usually has an advantage vs class Y but a disadvantage vs class Z - so you need to have a good rotation as a team to always be in fights where you have an advantage

>

> and shaking up the Meta doesnt mean making a new spec OP - it usually means nerfing the currently top builds a bit so players have to (have the chance to) come up with new builds to always keep fights interesting

> but OFC there will always be one build that is currently seen as the best one in the new current meta then ...

> and if it is truly OP then ofc Anet has to rebalance but they wont balance to make it 100% equal to every other class in 1vs1

>

>

 

A game that is balanced for all 1v1 combinations will also naturally be balanced 5v5.

 

**Unfortunately, there is no Monk or equivalent class in GW2. Such a class can bridge balance issues by shoring up otherwise bad builds. ANET should consider a dedicated healer class. I had high hopes that Auramancer Ele would take this role, but it was nerfed 'under' the ground.**

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

It's a unicorn. It's doesn't exist. Stop looking for it in an MMO.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> It's a unicorn. It's doesn't exist. Stop looking for it in an MMO.

 

Perhaps, but it's like enlightenment, the point is not to get there... the point is to try and to move toward it. I don't see enough of the trying part happening here.

 

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"Orangensaft.7139" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.**

> >

> > no it doesnt

> >

> > The game is not balanced around 1 vs 1

> > The PvP part is balanced around 5 vs 5

> > and it is intended that you dont always have equal chance going into a 1v1 against *any* other class

> > for eample: Class X usually has an advantage vs class Y but a disadvantage vs class Z - so you need to have a good rotation as a team to always be in fights where you have an advantage

> >

> > and shaking up the Meta doesnt mean making a new spec OP - it usually means nerfing the currently top builds a bit so players have to (have the chance to) come up with new builds to always keep fights interesting

> > but OFC there will always be one build that is currently seen as the best one in the new current meta then ...

> > and if it is truly OP then ofc Anet has to rebalance but they wont balance to make it 100% equal to every other class in 1vs1

> >

> >

>

> A game that is balanced for all 1v1 combinations will also naturally be balanced 5v5.

 

Also not true.

 

Take for example, S/D thief and holosmith right now. 1v1, you've got about a 50/50 shot of winning if both are equally skilled (roughly, I'm generalizing ok?).

 

But in teamfights? Whole different story. Holosmith has way more impact in teamfights than S/D thief, and that difference can snowball. Conversely, the thief has more mobility and can decap much more effectively than the holo.

 

Likewise, something awful for 1v1 (IE Staff Ele, Scourge slowly heading this way) can have a tremendous impact on group fights when played well.

 

-------

 

To the original point, balance does not mean equality either. Rock-paper-scissors is balanced, but definitely not equal.

 

The trick to balance is that one class should not dominate hard over almost all others (as scourge did for some time, as mesmer has recently), nor should any class lose most matchups (IE rev, condi engineer). It's about reducing the number of outliers, but not necessarily removing their advantages or disadvantages.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"Orangensaft.7139" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.**

> >

> > no it doesnt

> >

> > The game is not balanced around 1 vs 1

> > The PvP part is balanced around 5 vs 5

> > and it is intended that you dont always have equal chance going into a 1v1 against *any* other class

> > for eample: Class X usually has an advantage vs class Y but a disadvantage vs class Z - so you need to have a good rotation as a team to always be in fights where you have an advantage

> >

> > and shaking up the Meta doesnt mean making a new spec OP - it usually means nerfing the currently top builds a bit so players have to (have the chance to) come up with new builds to always keep fights interesting

> > but OFC there will always be one build that is currently seen as the best one in the new current meta then ...

> > and if it is truly OP then ofc Anet has to rebalance but they wont balance to make it 100% equal to every other class in 1vs1

> >

> >

>

> **A game that is balanced for all 1v1 combinations will also naturally be balanced 5v5.**

 

Noooooope. Nope, nope, nope.

 

Like the reason why thieves and historically mesmers (Not in the current incarnation) are generally weaker 1v1ers is because that level of high mobility on it's own is such a colossal boon to the team. Being able to 1v1 in the same capacity as a druid, holosmith, or spell breaker while also being able to disengage whenever things go south while also having the mobility to quickly cap, back cap, and claim objectives and +1 fights would be insane.

 

What matters for balance is that every class has at least one build that contributes to one of the four main roles of conquest in a meta way, whether it's support, team damage, dueling, or roaming. Right now once mesmers gets trimmed and ele and rev get some attention the game will be in a mostly good place.

 

I mean heck, just look at Firebrand and Scourge. Neither of them are good at 1v1. But when you put them together in a team fight they're the strongest combination of the game.

[pah.4931]

Balance to me is that every class/spec has clear and obvious and proportionate weakness/sacrifices to make up for any advantages or benefits. Trade-offs.

 

So TONS of damage, means it should be VERY easy to kill (to the point where it's almost impossible to play well). If it's IMPOSSIBLE to kill, then it should do almost 0 damage. That's the simplified version because of course there's stealth, mobility, range, melee, cc, boon, support, etc etc etc.

 

Of course, another layer on top of this would be "balanced for conquest" ... meaning you should never HAVE to take 3 players to kill 1 bunker; and you should never see situations that are "the team with the most X wins 98% of the time."

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.**

 

As a Thief, I'm not looking to be able to "face-tank" others 1v1. But give me assassin capabilities that pose a high threat to a lone straggler, and I'll be happy.

 

Again, not looking for AoE attacks or support skills or passive defenses... just single-target, high damage attacks. The less range, the higher the damage. The higher the risk, the higher the reward. Anet has really messed that up with P/P, sadly.

[mortrialus.3062]

My top tier priority list of balance if I was a dev:

 

Mesmer:

* Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. Whether it's replacing the trait entirely or adding an internal cooldown in PvP. Personally I want to see it completely replaced. If Phantasms are going to be as impactful as any other classes 4-5 skill, it shouldn't allow for the level of cooldown manipulation it currently has except for Continuum Split which actually takes a bit of finesse, lengthy cooldown and requires set up to get the most out of it.

* Reduce Disenchanter's damage by 25% and cap Defender's damage at probably half of it's current cap. Maybe more for both of these.

* Trimming GS and Condi Mirage burst. Trim. Not nuke. I'd nerf Mirror Blade and Mindstab by by 15%. For Condimirage I'd trim a few burning stacks off of the torch skills, which are low key the deadliest thing Mirage has in it's arsenal.

* Portal's duration should remain at 60 seconds and with 5000 range but the cool down should be bumped up to 100 seconds.

 

Necromancer:

* Give all shade abilities a clear 1 second anticipation frame before the attack goes out. The huge red circles are a bandaid and an ugly one like that. All shade abilities should have a unique tell similar to the necromancer's downstate fear giving players plenty of notice of what they're about to be hit with and when.

* Transfusion and well of blood deserve a look over but I'm not 100% convinced they're problematic.

* Might should not corrupt into Weakness. Almost every build in the game gets at least one stack of might accidentally and unintentionally. On it's own not that strong. Weakness is the most debilitating nondamaging condition in the game. Vigor and Might should have their corrupt tables flipped.

* Throw reaper just a few bones. It's almost where it needs to be.

 

 

Elementalist:

* After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. I Liked the dynamic it brought to the game. It's the role I feel like elementalists should be primarily known for; immense spikey off node damage. I think it was unfairly gutted last patch and I'd like to see it as an equally viable alternative to Mirage.

 

Support:

* I'd like to see Ventari Rev, Tempest and Scrapper receive some serious retooling. I like it when support is an important part of conquest games, but right now Firebrand is the only viable support. It's not that Firebrand is overpowered, it's the only one that's particularly viable. Just like you can have Holo or Heralds, Spellbreakers or Druids or Chronos, Mesmers or Thieves as viable alternatives for conquest rolls, we should see a variety of viable support builds in the game. Even if you nerfed Firebrand that would push the game towards support not being viable period. Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level.

 

There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta.

 

This should be the balance team's to do list in my humble opinion.

 

 

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > @"Orangensaft.7139" said:

> > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.**

> > >

> > > no it doesnt

> > >

> > > The game is not balanced around 1 vs 1

> > > The PvP part is balanced around 5 vs 5

> > > and it is intended that you dont always have equal chance going into a 1v1 against *any* other class

> > > for eample: Class X usually has an advantage vs class Y but a disadvantage vs class Z - so you need to have a good rotation as a team to always be in fights where you have an advantage

> > >

> > > and shaking up the Meta doesnt mean making a new spec OP - it usually means nerfing the currently top builds a bit so players have to (have the chance to) come up with new builds to always keep fights interesting

> > > but OFC there will always be one build that is currently seen as the best one in the new current meta then ...

> > > and if it is truly OP then ofc Anet has to rebalance but they wont balance to make it 100% equal to every other class in 1vs1

> > >

> > >

> >

> > **A game that is balanced for all 1v1 combinations will also naturally be balanced 5v5.**

>

> Noooooope. Nope, nope, nope.

>

> Like the reason why thieves and historically mesmers (Not in the current incarnation) are generally weaker 1v1ers is because that level of high mobility on it's own is such a colossal boon to the team. Being able to 1v1 in the same capacity as a druid, holosmith, or spell breaker while also being able to disengage whenever things go south while also having the mobility to quickly cap, back cap, and claim objectives and +1 fights would be insane.

>

> What matters for balance is that every class has at least one build that contributes to one of the four main roles of conquest in a meta way, whether it's support, team damage, dueling, or roaming. Right now once mesmers gets trimmed and ele and rev get some attention the game will be in a mostly good place.

>

> I mean heck, just look at Firebrand and Scourge. Neither of them are good at 1v1. But when you put them together in a team fight they're the strongest combination of the game.

 

And I propose roughly the same. If a thief wins on mobility and a Guardian on taking , then they are *equivalent.*

 

There are a couple of problems though. *Historically, ANET has not done a good job of keeping the equivalence.* **Also and critically; The frickin tank guardian is ALSO highly mobile.** in a situation like that, the Guradian has a natural advantage from the start.

 

This is what I was saying about not trying to balance by distributing skills.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > @"Orangensaft.7139" said:

> > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.**

> > > >

> > > > no it doesnt

> > > >

> > > > The game is not balanced around 1 vs 1

> > > > The PvP part is balanced around 5 vs 5

> > > > and it is intended that you dont always have equal chance going into a 1v1 against *any* other class

> > > > for eample: Class X usually has an advantage vs class Y but a disadvantage vs class Z - so you need to have a good rotation as a team to always be in fights where you have an advantage

> > > >

> > > > and shaking up the Meta doesnt mean making a new spec OP - it usually means nerfing the currently top builds a bit so players have to (have the chance to) come up with new builds to always keep fights interesting

> > > > but OFC there will always be one build that is currently seen as the best one in the new current meta then ...

> > > > and if it is truly OP then ofc Anet has to rebalance but they wont balance to make it 100% equal to every other class in 1vs1

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > **A game that is balanced for all 1v1 combinations will also naturally be balanced 5v5.**

> >

> > Noooooope. Nope, nope, nope.

> >

> > Like the reason why thieves and historically mesmers (Not in the current incarnation) are generally weaker 1v1ers is because that level of high mobility on it's own is such a colossal boon to the team. Being able to 1v1 in the same capacity as a druid, holosmith, or spell breaker while also being able to disengage whenever things go south while also having the mobility to quickly cap, back cap, and claim objectives and +1 fights would be insane.

> >

> > What matters for balance is that every class has at least one build that contributes to one of the four main roles of conquest in a meta way, whether it's support, team damage, dueling, or roaming. Right now once mesmers gets trimmed and ele and rev get some attention the game will be in a mostly good place.

> >

> > I mean heck, just look at Firebrand and Scourge. Neither of them are good at 1v1. But when you put them together in a team fight they're the strongest combination of the game.

>

> And I propose roughly the same. If a thief wins on mobility and a Guardian on taking , then they are *equivalent.*

>

> There are a couple of problems though. *Historically, ANET has not done a good job of keeping the equivalence.* **Also and critically; The frickin tank guardian is ALSO highly mobile.** in a situation like that, the Guradian has a natural advantage from the start.

>

> This is what I was saying about not trying to balance by distributing skills.

 

But then you aren't balancing for 1v1 anymore.

 

And I mean firebrands have a lot of swiftness uptime and they have merciful intervention to allies but they are not highly mobile in the slightest.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.**

>

> As a Thief, I'm not looking to be able to "face-tank" others 1v1. But give me assassin capabilities that pose a high threat to a lone straggler, and I'll be happy.

>

> Again, not looking for AoE attacks or support skills or passive defenses... just single-target, high damage attacks. The less range, the higher the damage. The higher the risk, the higher the reward. Anet has really messed that up with P/P, sadly.

 

And I am not proposing that a thief be able to face tank. I am proposing that the tanks be relatively slow **AS they are in just about every creditable RPG.** In this way, each class would have to play to it's strengths to win.

 

The classes would have an even chance, going into the fight.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> My top tier priority list of balance if I was a dev:

>

> Mesmer:

> * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. Whether it's replacing the trait entirely or adding an internal cooldown in PvP. Personally I want to see it completely replaced. If Phantasms are going to be as impactful as any other classes 4-5 skill, it shouldn't allow for the level of cooldown manipulation it currently has except for Continuum Split which actually takes a bit of finesse, lengthy cooldown and requires set up to get the most out of it.

> * Reduce Disenchanter's damage by 25% and cap Defender's damage at probably half of it's current cap. Maybe more for both of these.

> * Trimming GS and Condi Mirage burst. Trim. Not nuke. I'd nerf Mirror Blade and Mindstab by by 15%. For Condimirage I'd trim a few burning stacks off of the torch skills, which are low key the deadliest thing Mirage has in it's arsenal.

> * Portal's duration should remain at 60 seconds and with 5000 range but the cool down should be bumped up to 100 seconds.

>

> Necromancer:

> * Give all shade abilities a clear 1 second anticipation frame before the attack goes out. The huge red circles are a bandaid and an ugly one like that. All shade abilities should have a unique tell similar to the necromancer's downstate fear giving players plenty of notice of what they're about to be hit with and when.

> * Transfusion and well of blood deserve a look over but I'm not 100% convinced they're problematic.

> * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. Almost every build in the game gets at least one stack of might accidentally and unintentionally. On it's own not that strong. Weakness is the most debilitating nondamaging condition in the game. Vigor and Might should have their corrupt tables flipped.

> * Sand Savant range should probably not apply to the Scourge themselves.

> * Throw reaper just a few bones. It's almost where it needs to be.

>

>

> Elementalist:

> * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. I Liked the dynamic it brought to the game. It's the role I feel like elementalists should be primarily known for; immense spikey off node damage. I think it was unfairly gutted last patch and I'd like to see it as an equally viable alternative to Mirage.

>

> Support:

> * I'd like to see Ventari Rev, Tempest and Scrapper receive some serious retooling. I like it when support is an important part of conquest games, but right now Firebrand is the only viable support. It's not that Firebrand is overpowered, it's the only one that's particularly viable. Just like you can have Holo or Heralds, Spellbreakers or Druids or Chronos, Mesmers or Thieves as viable alternatives for conquest rolls, we should see a variety of viable support builds in the game. Even if you nerfed Firebrand that would push the game towards support not being viable period. Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level.

>

> There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta.

>

> This should be the balance team's to do list in my humble opinion.

>

>

 

In the case of Chronomancer/ Mirage, ANET attempted to make a "bruiser" out of a class that was never really suitable for that role. It's really the opposite problem of giving a teleport/leap to a guardian. **The combination is too powerful.**

 

A Mesmer is not meant to be a close combatant and in my view, trying to make the class a toe-to-toe bruiser was a serious mistake. In the same way, making a guardian a ranged , high mobility fighter doesn't fit the nature of guardian.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> My top tier priority list of balance if I was a dev:

>

> Mesmer:

> * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. Whether it's replacing the trait entirely or adding an internal cooldown in PvP. Personally I want to see it completely replaced. If Phantasms are going to be as impactful as any other classes 4-5 skill, it shouldn't allow for the level of cooldown manipulation it currently has except for Continuum Split which actually takes a bit of finesse, lengthy cooldown and requires set up to get the most out of it.

> * Reduce Disenchanter's damage by 25% and cap Defender's damage at probably half of it's current cap. Maybe more for both of these.

> * Trimming GS and Condi Mirage burst. Trim. Not nuke. I'd nerf Mirror Blade and Mindstab by by 15%. For Condimirage I'd trim a few burning stacks off of the torch skills, which are low key the deadliest thing Mirage has in it's arsenal.

> * Portal's duration should remain at 60 seconds and with 5000 range but the cool down should be bumped up to 100 seconds.

>

> Necromancer:

> * Give all shade abilities a clear 1 second anticipation frame before the attack goes out. The huge red circles are a bandaid and an ugly one like that. All shade abilities should have a unique tell similar to the necromancer's downstate fear giving players plenty of notice of what they're about to be hit with and when.

> * Transfusion and well of blood deserve a look over but I'm not 100% convinced they're problematic.

> * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. Almost every build in the game gets at least one stack of might accidentally and unintentionally. On it's own not that strong. Weakness is the most debilitating nondamaging condition in the game. Vigor and Might should have their corrupt tables flipped.

> * Throw reaper just a few bones. It's almost where it needs to be.

>

>

> Elementalist:

> * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. I Liked the dynamic it brought to the game. It's the role I feel like elementalists should be primarily known for; immense spikey off node damage. I think it was unfairly gutted last patch and I'd like to see it as an equally viable alternative to Mirage.

>

> Support:

> * I'd like to see Ventari Rev, Tempest and Scrapper receive some serious retooling. I like it when support is an important part of conquest games, but right now Firebrand is the only viable support. It's not that Firebrand is overpowered, it's the only one that's particularly viable. Just like you can have Holo or Heralds, Spellbreakers or Druids or Chronos, Mesmers or Thieves as viable alternatives for conquest rolls, we should see a variety of viable support builds in the game. Even if you nerfed Firebrand that would push the game towards support not being viable period. Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level.

>

> There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta.

>

> This should be the balance team's to do list in my humble opinion.

>

>

 

Your proposal on portal would trash core Mesmer which can't access Alacrity to mitigate such a long cooldown. Your other nerf suggestions have similar issues.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> And I am not proposing that a thief be able to face tank. I am proposing that the tanks be relatively slow **AS they are in just about every creditable RPG.** In this way, each class would have to play to it's strengths to win.

>

> The classes would have an even chance, going into the fight.

 

Yes, that is what I also meant. Sorry for the confusion. Different playstyles can still be balanced. Glass cannons need to have a purpose other than hunting other glass cannons.

 

High risks should come with high rewards. Low risks should come with low rewards.

 

There must be equal gain to sacrifice... whether there is no sacrifice or great sacrifice.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > My top tier priority list of balance if I was a dev:

> >

> > Mesmer:

> > * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. Whether it's replacing the trait entirely or adding an internal cooldown in PvP. Personally I want to see it completely replaced. If Phantasms are going to be as impactful as any other classes 4-5 skill, it shouldn't allow for the level of cooldown manipulation it currently has except for Continuum Split which actually takes a bit of finesse, lengthy cooldown and requires set up to get the most out of it.

> > * Reduce Disenchanter's damage by 25% and cap Defender's damage at probably half of it's current cap. Maybe more for both of these.

> > * Trimming GS and Condi Mirage burst. Trim. Not nuke. I'd nerf Mirror Blade and Mindstab by by 15%. For Condimirage I'd trim a few burning stacks off of the torch skills, which are low key the deadliest thing Mirage has in it's arsenal.

> > * Portal's duration should remain at 60 seconds and with 5000 range but the cool down should be bumped up to 100 seconds.

> >

> > Necromancer:

> > * Give all shade abilities a clear 1 second anticipation frame before the attack goes out. The huge red circles are a bandaid and an ugly one like that. All shade abilities should have a unique tell similar to the necromancer's downstate fear giving players plenty of notice of what they're about to be hit with and when.

> > * Transfusion and well of blood deserve a look over but I'm not 100% convinced they're problematic.

> > * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. Almost every build in the game gets at least one stack of might accidentally and unintentionally. On it's own not that strong. Weakness is the most debilitating nondamaging condition in the game. Vigor and Might should have their corrupt tables flipped.

> > * Throw reaper just a few bones. It's almost where it needs to be.

> >

> >

> > Elementalist:

> > * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. I Liked the dynamic it brought to the game. It's the role I feel like elementalists should be primarily known for; immense spikey off node damage. I think it was unfairly gutted last patch and I'd like to see it as an equally viable alternative to Mirage.

> >

> > Support:

> > * I'd like to see Ventari Rev, Tempest and Scrapper receive some serious retooling. I like it when support is an important part of conquest games, but right now Firebrand is the only viable support. It's not that Firebrand is overpowered, it's the only one that's particularly viable. Just like you can have Holo or Heralds, Spellbreakers or Druids or Chronos, Mesmers or Thieves as viable alternatives for conquest rolls, we should see a variety of viable support builds in the game. Even if you nerfed Firebrand that would push the game towards support not being viable period. Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level.

> >

> > There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta.

> >

> > This should be the balance team's to do list in my humble opinion.

> >

> >

>

> Your proposal on portal would trash core Mesmer which can't access Alacrity to mitigate such a long cooldown. Your other nerf suggestions have similar issues.

 

No one cares about core mesmer.

 

And mesmers as a whole would mostly shrug off bumping up portal's cooldown to 90-100 seconds with little issue.

 

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > My top tier priority list of balance if I was a dev:

> >

> > Mesmer:

> > * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. Whether it's replacing the trait entirely or adding an internal cooldown in PvP. Personally I want to see it completely replaced. If Phantasms are going to be as impactful as any other classes 4-5 skill, it shouldn't allow for the level of cooldown manipulation it currently has except for Continuum Split which actually takes a bit of finesse, lengthy cooldown and requires set up to get the most out of it.

> > * Reduce Disenchanter's damage by 25% and cap Defender's damage at probably half of it's current cap. Maybe more for both of these.

> > * Trimming GS and Condi Mirage burst. Trim. Not nuke. I'd nerf Mirror Blade and Mindstab by by 15%. For Condimirage I'd trim a few burning stacks off of the torch skills, which are low key the deadliest thing Mirage has in it's arsenal.

> > * Portal's duration should remain at 60 seconds and with 5000 range but the cool down should be bumped up to 100 seconds.

> >

> > Necromancer:

> > * Give all shade abilities a clear 1 second anticipation frame before the attack goes out. The huge red circles are a bandaid and an ugly one like that. All shade abilities should have a unique tell similar to the necromancer's downstate fear giving players plenty of notice of what they're about to be hit with and when.

> > * Transfusion and well of blood deserve a look over but I'm not 100% convinced they're problematic.

> > * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. Almost every build in the game gets at least one stack of might accidentally and unintentionally. On it's own not that strong. Weakness is the most debilitating nondamaging condition in the game. Vigor and Might should have their corrupt tables flipped.

> > * Sand Savant range should probably not apply to the Scourge themselves.

> > * Throw reaper just a few bones. It's almost where it needs to be.

> >

> >

> > Elementalist:

> > * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. I Liked the dynamic it brought to the game. It's the role I feel like elementalists should be primarily known for; immense spikey off node damage. I think it was unfairly gutted last patch and I'd like to see it as an equally viable alternative to Mirage.

> >

> > Support:

> > * I'd like to see Ventari Rev, Tempest and Scrapper receive some serious retooling. I like it when support is an important part of conquest games, but right now Firebrand is the only viable support. It's not that Firebrand is overpowered, it's the only one that's particularly viable. Just like you can have Holo or Heralds, Spellbreakers or Druids or Chronos, Mesmers or Thieves as viable alternatives for conquest rolls, we should see a variety of viable support builds in the game. Even if you nerfed Firebrand that would push the game towards support not being viable period. Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level.

> >

> > There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta.

> >

> > This should be the balance team's to do list in my humble opinion.

> >

> >

>

> In the case of Chronomancer/ Mirage, ANET attempted to make a "bruiser" out of a class that was never really suitable for that role. It's really the opposite problem of giving a teleport/leap to a guardian. **The combination is too powerful.**

>

> A Mesmer is not meant to be a close combatant and in my view, trying to make the class a toe-to-toe bruiser was a serious mistake. In the same way, making a guardian a ranged , high mobility fighter doesn't fit the nature of guardian.

 

Mirage is not a bruiser. It is a highly mobile skirmisher. It's actually quite fragile when it's not evading.

 

Chronomancer being a defensively, support orientated line is fine as a concept. The problem has been Chronophantasma and formerly Signet of the Ether multiplying the class's most powerful skills by 4x give it far too much offensive capability for something built purely for sustain.

[Odik.4587]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

Looking at your suggestions... I feel bad for you tbh...and this changes as well xD

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Looking at your suggestions... I feel bad for you tbh...and this changes as well xD

 

Why would you feel bad for me?

[Math.5123]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > My top tier priority list of balance if I was a dev:

> >

> > Mesmer:

> > * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. Whether it's replacing the trait entirely or adding an internal cooldown in PvP. Personally I want to see it completely replaced. If Phantasms are going to be as impactful as any other classes 4-5 skill, it shouldn't allow for the level of cooldown manipulation it currently has except for Continuum Split which actually takes a bit of finesse, lengthy cooldown and requires set up to get the most out of it.

> > * Reduce Disenchanter's damage by 25% and cap Defender's damage at probably half of it's current cap. Maybe more for both of these.

> > * Trimming GS and Condi Mirage burst. Trim. Not nuke. I'd nerf Mirror Blade and Mindstab by by 15%. For Condimirage I'd trim a few burning stacks off of the torch skills, which are low key the deadliest thing Mirage has in it's arsenal.

> > * Portal's duration should remain at 60 seconds and with 5000 range but the cool down should be bumped up to 100 seconds.

> >

> > Necromancer:

> > * Give all shade abilities a clear 1 second anticipation frame before the attack goes out. The huge red circles are a bandaid and an ugly one like that. All shade abilities should have a unique tell similar to the necromancer's downstate fear giving players plenty of notice of what they're about to be hit with and when.

> > * Transfusion and well of blood deserve a look over but I'm not 100% convinced they're problematic.

> > * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. Almost every build in the game gets at least one stack of might accidentally and unintentionally. On it's own not that strong. Weakness is the most debilitating nondamaging condition in the game. Vigor and Might should have their corrupt tables flipped.

> > * Sand Savant range should probably not apply to the Scourge themselves.

> > * Throw reaper just a few bones. It's almost where it needs to be.

> >

> >

> > Elementalist:

> > * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. I Liked the dynamic it brought to the game. It's the role I feel like elementalists should be primarily known for; immense spikey off node damage. I think it was unfairly gutted last patch and I'd like to see it as an equally viable alternative to Mirage.

> >

> > Support:

> > * I'd like to see Ventari Rev, Tempest and Scrapper receive some serious retooling. I like it when support is an important part of conquest games, but right now Firebrand is the only viable support. It's not that Firebrand is overpowered, it's the only one that's particularly viable. Just like you can have Holo or Heralds, Spellbreakers or Druids or Chronos, Mesmers or Thieves as viable alternatives for conquest rolls, we should see a variety of viable support builds in the game. Even if you nerfed Firebrand that would push the game towards support not being viable period. Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level.

> >

> > There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta.

> >

> > This should be the balance team's to do list in my humble opinion.

> >

> >

>

> In the case of Chronomancer/ Mirage, ANET attempted to make a "bruiser" out of a class that was never really suitable for that role. It's really the opposite problem of giving a teleport/leap to a guardian. **The combination is too powerful.**

>

> A Mesmer is not meant to be a close combatant and in my view, trying to make the class a toe-to-toe bruiser was a serious mistake. In the same way, making a guardian a ranged , high mobility fighter doesn't fit the nature of guardian.

 

Guardian, high mobility? Are you high? Literally every dps build ever has to go lynx runes for the 25% movement speed. The low mobility is what's keeping core guard in check.

[Odik.4587]

Because thats always sad to see someone who still complaint about greatsword after all nerfs and think GS is overperforming...

How thats even came to your 'mind' to bring this 'suggestions' about mirrorblade and mind stab that OP ? May be you want nerf 30s knock without damage on top ? I honestly dont understand ... Just as the rest of suggestions except CP which I told long time ago(idc about chrono tho ,wouldnt mind being deleted)

>No one cares about core mesmer.

Everyone care about 'core' of the class because thats not how you solve problems with elite specializations.

 

[Brother.1504]

Balance is a slider moving between never dying due to high defense and being one shot due to high damage. Perfect balance is impossible in an mmo. More frequent balance patches is the only practical answer.

[choovanski.5462]

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.**

 

you’ve become confused. we aren’t playing street fighter, or my current favourite game, for honor. these are fighting games with competitive 1v1 modes. so they need balance that focuses around that gamemode.

 

gw2 tho.... well it actually doesn’t have a 1v1 mode. so balancing for a 1v1 gamemode is just stupid, because it’s not there to play.

 

what gw2 has is a 5v5 team based objective based gamemode, conquest. this revolves around roles & teams working together. so this is how classes must be balanced. in regard to both their interactions with other classes (like support + dps, we dont want a support to make a bruiser invun etc) & how well they perform their role. 1v1 is part of this for some roles, but not others. why should a support be able to 1v1 as well as a bruiser? ones role is support & the other is 1v1, it makes sense for their to be a discrepancy in their ability to 1v1 as their is that same difference in their ability to support.

 

basically all of the specialisations should have a build that fits a role, & is a viable team pick. that’s good balance for conquest.

 

[Curunen.8729]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

>I genuinely find the "Core and both elite specializations need to be run in equal capacity in every area of the game" obsession that's rampant on this forum misguided and baffling.

 

I think the current format of core and elite specialisations could do with further refinement, particularly once the next expansion drops (assuming within 18 months or so) and we have 3 elite specs per class - meaning 3 distinct build possibilities from elite specs alone.

 

If it wasn't for the fact of elite specs being locked behind payed expansions that not everyone has access to, I would consider the suggestion of making an elite spec trait line a mandatory slot for every build.

 

The other option which I am less fond of is having the 5th core trait line (the one that buffs the class mechanic, ie Illusions, Beastmastery, Trickery etc) be core exclusive. Of course that would mean radical balance changes to keep some things relevant, but would be a solution for f2p players or those that for some reason don't want to buy an expansion.

 

I prefer the first option - maybe once the next expansion drops all players could get access to one elite spec of their choice in the pvp build panel as a gift (even f2p players) so everyone would be able to use one elite spec whether they buy an expansion or not? This would still keep it locked for pve and wvw though giving incentive to buy an expansion.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> >I genuinely find the "Core and both elite specializations need to be run in equal capacity in every area of the game" obsession that's rampant on this forum misguided and baffling.

>

> I think the current format of core and elite specialisations could do with further refinement, particularly once the next expansion drops (assuming within 18 months or so) and we have 3 elite specs per class - meaning 3 distinct build possibilities from elite specs alone.

>

> If it wasn't for the fact of elite specs being locked behind payed expansions that not everyone has access to, I would consider the suggestion of making an elite spec trait line a mandatory slot for every build.

>

> The other option which I am less fond of is having the 5th core trait line (the one that buffs the class mechanic, ie Illusions, Beastmastery, Trickery etc) be core exclusive. Of course that would mean radical balance changes to keep some things relevant, but would be a solution for f2p players or those that for some reason don't want to buy an expansion.

>

> I prefer the first option - maybe once the next expansion drops all players could get access to one elite spec of their choice in the pvp build panel as a gift (even f2p players) so everyone would be able to use one elite spec whether they buy an expansion or not? This would still keep it locked for pve and wvw though giving incentive to buy an expansion.

 

I personally see no reason to lock Elite Specializations behind the paywall at all specifically for SPvP. The point of SPvP is to provide an even playing field for players in terms of stats and skills. It's why you don't have to get to level 80. Why you don't have to craft top tier equipment. You just pick your traits, skills and stats and off you go. Elite Specs should just be part of this in SPvP.

 

It would increase the validity of SPvP immensely by removing the paywall behind some specs and I really can't imagine PvP only players make up a significant portion of sales as to be that big of an income dip.