Deadeye Rework: Feedback [Merged]

[saerni.2584]

Deadeye is about to receive a major stealth and malice oriented revamp. Last time I let the theorycrafting thread go a little neglected. This time I’m hoping to use the weekend to do theory crafting and let everyone work on builds next week after the patch. Then we can get build links posted.

 

I’d also request that those who do gameplay videos prepare footage of their builds in action after the changes go live. Then I can append links in the OP below.

 

In your own posts you can do whatever you like but I’ll be formatting the builds similar to before:

 

**Build Name**

* Mainhand/Offhand

* [GW2 Skills Build Link](http://en.gw2skills.net)

* Brief description

 

-----[POWER] RIFLE BUILDS-----

 

**NAME**

* Mainhand/Offhand

* [GW2 Skills Build Link](http://en.gw2skills.net)

* Description

 

-----[POWER] SWORD/DAGGER BUILDS-----

 

**NAME**

* Mainhand/Offhand

* [GW2 Skills Build Link](http://en.gw2skills.net)

* Description

 

-----[POWER] PISTOL/PISTOL BUILDS

 

**NAME**

* Mainhand/Offhand

* [GW2 Skills Build Link](http://en.gw2skills.net)

* Description

 

-----CONDITION/HYBRID BUILDS-----

 

**NAME**

* Mainhand/Offhand

* [GW2 Skills Build Link](http://en.gw2skills.net)

* Description

 

**Malicious Shadow Duelist** (saerni)

* Pistol/Dagger + Shortbow

* [GW2 Skills Build Link](http://en.gw2skills.net)

* WvW/PvP/PvE. This build uses a pistol mainhand to deliver devastating assaults inflicting both bleed and torment. With an offhand dagger this build can effectively kite with a combination of teleports and cripple to avoid being hit in melee range while continuing to apply torment for even more pressure. The build also applies consistent poison for maximum effectiveness. In PvP this uses Deadshot for maximum malice and condition pressure. In WvW/PvE the gear is a mix of Trailblazer and Rampager stats (can mix in to taste).

[shentong.2106]

elxdark is the best DE this game has to offer so be sure to check him out

[Urejt.5648]

> @"shentong.2106" said:

> elxdark is the best DE this game has to offer so be sure to check him out

 

Who is this shentong?Somebody ashamed of his true, disgraced name?

 

Elxdark twitch is currently top1 teef na. Rifle teef for the win!

[reddie.5861]

rifle teef cant be top 1.

 

choosing when and who to fight and when to strike doesnt require skill. any1 can do this except people like me who do not have patience for this kind of non sense pvp.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"reddie.5861" said:

> rifle teef cant be top 1.

>

> choosing when and who to fight and when to strike doesnt require skill. any1 can do this except people like me who do not have patience for this kind of non sense pvp.

 

now if 'skill' would be important to accomplish anything in this game...

[saerni.2584]

After a few conversations over the weekend:

 

Thieves can spend initiative and either (1) miss, (2) hit or (3) crit. A big initiative skill is worth the same malice as a low initiative skill so using high efficiency skills early in a fight will be more common. D/D 3, for example, with multiple strikes and evade may be an efficient way to “power up” for a Malicious Backstab.”

 

Anet has not talked about changing the total malice pool. Assuming the same 5/7 malice pool a DE will need between 3 and 7 initiative using attacks to max out malice. However, because malice is tied to stealth attacks there is no need to generate malice faster than the amount of time between stealth attacks. This means probably between 25-50% crit rate will be sufficient on most builds to reliably have decent malice. Around 4 attacks will be the average required to keep malice topped off for most Deadeye’s.

 

Anet has not discussed whether Revealed Malice will be retained in the new trait rework or to what extent. Thematically it seems appropriate to keep some bonus malice generation that is basically a reward for landing a stealth attack by reducing the downtime to the next one. But, this being a larger rework this might just be absorbed into the baseline. If not this trait may be very important going forward. Taking this trait may benefit lower crit rate builds and for this reason may be good for condi DE variants.

 

Given how stealth involved the DE is becoming I expect Rifle will gain stealth as part of its baseline. There is no benefit to the other two trait choices if you are forced to chose Sniper’s Cover to gain reliable access to Death’s Judgment. Synergy practically demands this change given the lack of stealth generating combos on rifle. An alternative might be to give the set such a combo as part of the skill rework.

 

Speculation is most difficult as to individual Stealth Attack abilities. I will briefly address P/D’s Sneak Attack because it is relevant to my playstyle and I’ve thought a bit more about it. First, I predict that the additional condition will be a damage condition in the same way that power damage attacks see a damage increase. Thematically, I think Poison is the most likely because poison is part of Binding Shadow and because Malice will no longer extend the poison duration on Binding Shadow. Thus, by taking away poison duration on a utility they can restore it in a functionally appropriate way on the stealth attack most associated with conditions. Second, I predict that malice will extend the duration of the poison but not the number of stacks. I’m guessing a base duration of 2 seconds and a base application of one stack with 20% bonus duration per malice so at 5 malice you get 3 seconds and with 100% poison duration you get 4 seconds. I note that there are five bullets in Sneak Attack but I’d expect them not to give 1 stack per bullet and just apply one stack if any bullet hits.

 

And, as this will be coming out tomorrow we can find out how badly I missed the mark (no DE pun intended).

[babazhook.6805]

My single largest concern is the INI pool itself. They key mechanic of the DE traitline is that malice and that malice gain is tied directly to ones INI pool. No INI , no Malice gain. This entire traitline is to be linked to INI.

 

As such I would hope there something in the traitline can help to restore INI. As example a trait that refunds two INI on every successful sneak attack. With the added emphasis on STEALTH so as to get those sneak attacks off, I fear the end result might be we are locked to DE/TR/SA in all builds. (I would like to see the "add regen" portion of renewing gaze changed to "On successful stealth attack regain 2 ini).

[saerni.2584]

I like that idea because it opens up gameplay around the momentum of landing hits and pressing your advantage.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> My single largest concern is the INI pool itself. They key mechanic of the DE traitline is that malice and that malice gain is tied directly to ones INI pool. No INI , no Malice gain. This entire traitline is to be linked to INI.

>

> As such I would hope there something in the traitline can help to restore INI. As example a trait that refunds two INI on every successful sneak attack. With the added emphasis on STEALTH so as to get those sneak attacks off, I fear the end result might be we are locked to DE/TR/SA in all builds. (I would like to see the "add regen" portion of renewing gaze changed to "On successful stealth attack regain 2 ini).

 

Honestly heavily tying an elite spec to initiative is even more reason to make preparedness baseline. IMHO. Not only would it help this new DE rework, but would make Trickery not a required spec and possibly open up other possibilities.

[MUDse.7623]

i am more worried about actually needing to hit with an ini skill to gain malice at all then malice being gained by ini, i mean normaly a thief is spending ini all the time. but if successfully have to hit the mark with ini investment, that is an issue as it forces us to use skills that do hit and if possible multiple times to not miss the malice gain and you have to attack the mark with those hits wich makes bodyblocks an even greater issue with rifle and possibly p/x.

i also do think the malice gain + comsuption wont be leading to a quick in and out of stealth style because i doubt there will be a non malice using stealth attack option till you are at full malice, so if you use them frequently you might not reach high malice levels.

 

losing CB ( both corrupt on weapon skill+high unblockable dmg) and possibly very conditioned malice gain are my main concerns about the new changes, hope they wont turn out as bad as i think.

[saerni.2584]

I suspect building up malice will be “worth the wait.”

 

These days I use Rending Shade as my go to reason for a Sneak Attack. This change makes the stealth attack more important to my damage and gives me more reasons to use CnD rather than other abilities.

[saerni.2584]

Also, what if a full malice stealth attack is unblockable?

 

Might be OP.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I suspect building up malice will be “worth the wait.”

>

> These days I use Rending Shade as my go to reason for a Sneak Attack. This change makes the stealth attack more important to my damage and gives me more reasons to use CnD rather than other abilities.

 

currently you could play p/d and keep rending shade on cd while spamming that sneak attack every 3-4 seconds after reveal. in this time you gain 3-4 ini while CnD costs 5 so you will slowly go towards 0 ini. now if you run with 5 malice and want big sneak attacks you need to hit at least 2 other skills before CnD therefore 11 ini until sneak attack. you will gain alot less out of rending shade then after the patch and with such ini costs it is probably better to go for shadows rejuvenation for the 10% extra ini gain instead.

if malice was only consumed by sneak attacks on maximum stacks, then it would be another story.

[saerni.2584]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > I suspect building up malice will be “worth the wait.”

> >

> > These days I use Rending Shade as my go to reason for a Sneak Attack. This change makes the stealth attack more important to my damage and gives me more reasons to use CnD rather than other abilities.

>

> currently you could play p/d and keep rending shade on cd while spamming that sneak attack every 3-4 seconds after reveal. in this time you gain 3-4 ini while CnD costs 5 so you will slowly go towards 0 ini. now if you run with 5 malice and want big sneak attacks you need to hit at least 2 other skills before CnD therefore 11 ini until sneak attack. you will gain alot less out of rending shade then after the patch and with such ini costs it is probably better to go for shadows rejuvenation for the 10% extra ini gain instead.

> if malice was only consumed by sneak attacks on maximum stacks, then it would be another story.

 

Rending Shade is basically around to counter resistance and certain boon spamming builds more generally. AFAIK Rending does not have a cooldown because it just shares the Stealth Attack cooldown in general.

 

I find the ideal rotation damage-wise is not heavily reliant on CnD and Sneak Attack so I’m building malice post patch. The real question is how much and how quickly.

 

In PvP the Deadshot amulet provides crit, expertise and condi damage. This should synergize well with the changes.

 

In WvW there is no Deadshot prefix armor. Instead I plan to supplement with Rampager stat for less overall crit rate but higher hp/armor/condi damage.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > I suspect building up malice will be “worth the wait.”

> > >

> > > These days I use Rending Shade as my go to reason for a Sneak Attack. This change makes the stealth attack more important to my damage and gives me more reasons to use CnD rather than other abilities.

> >

> > currently you could play p/d and keep rending shade on cd while spamming that sneak attack every 3-4 seconds after reveal. in this time you gain 3-4 ini while CnD costs 5 so you will slowly go towards 0 ini. now if you run with 5 malice and want big sneak attacks you need to hit at least 2 other skills before CnD therefore 11 ini until sneak attack. you will gain alot less out of rending shade then after the patch and with such ini costs it is probably better to go for shadows rejuvenation for the 10% extra ini gain instead.

> > if malice was only consumed by sneak attacks on maximum stacks, then it would be another story.

>

> Rending Shade is basically around to counter resistance and certain boon spamming builds more generally. AFAIK Rending does not have a cooldown because it just shares the Stealth Attack cooldown in general.

>

thats correct rending shade doesnt have a cooldown but as you wont be spamming shadow meld, you need to wait for the revealed.

> I find the ideal rotation damage-wise is not heavily reliant on CnD and Sneak Attack so I’m building malice post patch. The real question is how much and how quickly.

>

thats my point tho, if you do not build it quickly you will be forced to decide. either a super charged sneak attack ( wich will now do more condis and is probably worth going for) or more frequent rending shades. as i do hope its well worth to wait for more malice, you might not be using that rending shade often then. or more generally you cant use frequent stealth attacks if you want to use max malice ones, as the build up will take much longer then going back into stealth. so i am not sure if the deadeye is being pushed towards an in and out of stealth playstyle, certainly not a stealth camping one with the malice gain. but for an in and out style in my opinion the malice build up is too slow.

that said i dont think SA is currently supporting a in and out of stealth gameplay and you would probably be better off with another line if you dont intent to stay in stealth for a few seconds every time you enter it

[Volrath.1473]

we know nothing about the changes... all we know is the stealth sword skill and nothing else. How can anyone theoryclarft anything at this time?

are you alright?

[saerni.2584]

It’s just a few predictions based on what the details included in the preview. It’s not unreasonable to extrapolate a few things even if not everything turns out correct.

 

And, it’s not like 2 or 3 posts are really all that much effort before tomorrow.

[Ceit.7619]

Not sure if it's intended or not, but this trait doesn't grant stealth unless you are in combat. The trait description doesn't state that requirement, and gaining stealth on dodge is a pretty desirable situation OOC at times.

[borgs.6103]

Oh so that's why... I thought they just forgot to implement the stealth. So it's only in combat, good to know!

[Sarge shot Grif.6450]

It... does state that, it says combat only.

[Kallist.5917]

Says Combat only in the description ingame, so I imagine it was just a oversight for the change log. But is anyone else seeing a huge drop in damage for DJ? Hits that were doing 27K yesterday are now hitting 11K.

[Sarge shot Grif.6450]

Happy to be (mostly) wrong though, D/D is stupid strong now and they actually made M7 Decent with the new mechanics.

[Ryans.9571]

> @"Kallist.5917" said:

> Says Combat only in the description ingame, so I imagine it was just a oversight for the change log. But is anyone else seeing a huge drop in damage for DJ? Hits that were doing 27K yesterday are now hitting 11K.

 

That is because they removed the bonus damage from malice

[Volrath.1473]

I can see this being a problem. If I open from stealth and get the revealed debuff and I'm forced to dodge right after I going to waste the stealth and start a 20sec CD?!

If so it is horrible!! :(

[omgdracula.6345]

Can you explain how D/D is good now? I have not heard of dual daggers being good in awhile.