We can't infer anything about the All.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Given the entire lack of mention of Menzies in Path of Fire, I'm holding onto the theory that Menzies doesn't actually exist but is just a personification Balthazar created in order to give his soldiers things to do. Like playing chess with oneself.

>

> This is actually supported a tad bit in Path of Fire, as the banners of the Forged are almost exact duplicates of the banners of the Shadow Army from the Fissure of Woe.

 

Wouldn’t that also mean that Balthazar was technically aligned to both Dhuum and Abaddon as well, with the Realm of Torment etc? Could be an angle they go down, all three are referenced in PoF and there after with raids.

 

Would also make Balthazar campaign and his war effort against the dragon’s make more sense if he was secretly aligned with Dhuum and Abaddon the whole time.

 

[Arden.7480]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> > > > the Gods assumed Balthazar would be trapped forever, so they did not bother to kill him completely, or even eliminate his magical abilities (like manipulating fire). His release from Rytlock was an event of extreme luck/exceptional.

> > >

> > > Remember what Taimi said when we scanned Balthazar in the Flashpoint.

> > >

> > > “Upon scanning Balthazar:

> > > Scanner: No—life—detected. Only—magic—energy—present...

> > >

> > > ...: So what's going on with Balthazar?

> > > Taimi: He's somehow inserted himself into the system... And he's so magically adept... So in order to absorb...”

> > >

> > > Balthazar is a magical being, had they completely removed all his magic it would have killed him. Even when he dies at the end of Path of Fire, he just explodes with magical energy. Relighting a sword and opening a portal in a weakened state should really show how powerful Balthazar was in his full god form.

> >

> >

Personally, I'm curious as to who replaced Balthazar as the god of war. Kormir corrects Rytlock on assuming there are only five gods again. I doubt it's Menzies. It's not us... yet?

> >

> > If this were GW1 it would be easy to think the PC is being groomed to be the replacement but GW2 has multiple playble races. Maybe Logan?

> >

> > Or if they're already there and left with the gods, who the hell is it? Where did they come from? Are they a character that's already existed in the story or someone out of left field?

 

>

> Maybe Devona took Balthazar’s place.

>

 

Wasn't Devona Balthazar's herald? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Herald_of_Balthazar

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > Balthazar was stripped of his divinity. This does not make him powerless or incapable of any act. Merely incapable of breaking his own chains and influencing distant places. Further, he opened the portal after being freed from the chains, which likely hindered what power he still had.

> >

> > Then Balthazar wasn't a mortal.

> Never claimed otherwise, just that he wasn't a full fledged god, but a former god. More than mortal, less than god.

 

Correct. But I did. And I was agreeing with you.

 

>

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > I don't know what "not even Rytlock" means. He didn't create the discipline, he learned it from Glint. He doesn't display any spellcasting prowess like Kasmeer, much less Jennah.

>

> Original statement was "Not even Rytlock could get back to Tyria from The Mists though. He needed the help of a former god." in response to a discussion that originally stemmed from you proclaiming Zeghai must be a ritualist because, like Rytlock, he travels through the Mists. Basically, my responses have been, to quote Luke: "Everything you just said is wrong."

 

What are you even talking about? You somehow misread the previous conversation or are confusing threads.

I said in reference to a non-canon game that it sounded like Rytlock was accidentally phasing as he wandered the mist. And perhaps that was the gw2 idea for the beginning of the technique. I didn't say he had the ability to teleport across the continent at will. Or that he was particularly adept as a Revenant.

 

I also didn't say Zeghai was a Revenant because of Rytlock for on the other post I had already quoted:

> If revenant

> I see you clearly. We have both walked in the Mists. We have seen the realm of infinite possibilities and chosen to risk our existence to manipulate them.

 

You decided to bring up Rytlock's potential using the phrase "not even" and mention Balthazar. I still disagree with the former. But have agreed the latter is not a mortal.

 

>

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > The concept that mortals can't enter the Mists without external aid is like saying wells require corpses, exit portals must be placed first, you can't blink through jail cell walls, or rangers don't use spells.

> >

> > Clearly they have found a way.

> And thus we enter the realm of Daniel Handler once again twisting responses to make others look the self-contradicting fools. I only said the very first thing, you know.

>

> Certainly never said one cannot blink through jail cells or that rangers don't use spells (the latter is obviously false due to the two elite specializations even if you ignored half of the ranger's skills being very obviously magical).

 

I listed general statements that have been said through this games history from Gw1 players and in-game mechanics, that were latter retconned/shown to be incorrect. I could have also included prayers are holy, etc.

 

It obvious you didn't make the latter statements, one is even a reference to the prison escape instance mentioned earlier in the thread. That doesn't stop your earlier statement from being just as wrong if the current writers have decided. And from the skill descriptions, they have taken the artistic freedom a strange new magic can provide.

 

>

> What I _did_ say was that revenants don't go willy nilly traveling the Mists to pop up on the other side of the continent on their own capabilities. Their capabilities and their "invisibility" skills like sword 3 or their dodge effect, mirrors more what the mursaat were capable of. Which was not full-fledged walking into the Mists but, like souls, going partway into the Mists.

 

So essentially Misstepping? Then would necrotic transversal be teleportation through the area between life/death?

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> > > > > the Gods assumed Balthazar would be trapped forever, so they did not bother to kill him completely, or even eliminate his magical abilities (like manipulating fire). His release from Rytlock was an event of extreme luck/exceptional.

> > > >

> > > > Remember what Taimi said when we scanned Balthazar in the Flashpoint.

> > > >

> > > > “Upon scanning Balthazar:

> > > > Scanner: No—life—detected. Only—magic—energy—present...

> > > >

> > > > ...: So what's going on with Balthazar?

> > > > Taimi: He's somehow inserted himself into the system... And he's so magically adept... So in order to absorb...”

> > > >

> > > > Balthazar is a magical being, had they completely removed all his magic it would have killed him. Even when he dies at the end of Path of Fire, he just explodes with magical energy. Relighting a sword and opening a portal in a weakened state should really show how powerful Balthazar was in his full god form.

> > >

> > >

Personally, I'm curious as to who replaced Balthazar as the god of war. Kormir corrects Rytlock on assuming there are only five gods again. I doubt it's Menzies. It's not us... yet?

> > >

> > > If this were GW1 it would be easy to think the PC is being groomed to be the replacement but GW2 has multiple playble races. Maybe Logan?

> > >

> > > Or if they're already there and left with the gods, who the hell is it? Where did they come from? Are they a character that's already existed in the story or someone out of left field?

 

> >

> > Maybe Devona took Balthazar’s place.

> >

>

> Wasn't Devona Balthazar's herald? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Herald_of_Balthazar

 

Yes she was. My timing was off. Forgot that Balthazar’s power would have been transferred some 250 years ago when the gods went silent.

[Kossage.9072]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> I have always wondered about this and I was hoping for more of an answer from Anet during Path of Fire. Balthazar had a bit of a hissy fit regarding the other gods not fighting the dragon’s. I was hoping that Anet would explain that Balthazar had actually beat Menzies and destroyed his shadow army in the fissure of woe. It would explain why he was so antsy for a big war and battle after the conflict in FoW ended. Never happened, though we can speculate by certain item names like Menzies agony and fate of Menzies. Had they explained this part a bit more, I think it may given his character a bit more depth. For all we know, Menzies could have been dealt with just after GW1, which left Balthazar bored with nothing to do, but look forward to the next big fight. It’s like when Marines get addict to combat and who knows how long he had been waiting. Next thing he knows, he sees a large scale conflict with the Elder Dragons, which I’m sure excited him. Then the other gods disagree, leaving him steaming and frustrated.

 

Regarding Balthazar beating Menzies and the Shadow Army, we did get this intriguing Reddit comment from Scott McGough (the narrative lead of PoF) regarding Balthazar's past:

 

> Likewise, Balth the god of war had been more or less idle since the Exodus, with very little in the way of human contact or terrestrial combat. He's a fiery god of action and he was champing at the bit for the chance to do what he was born to do (as he sees it). [(Source)](

)

 

I'm not sure if with "Exodus" Scott meant the actual Exodus from Tyria after Abaddon's imprisonment (and hence the beginning of the After Exodus timeline of Mouvelian Calendar; this would be my interpretation of his comment, however), or if he meant the event of gods withdrawing further into the Mists after Abaddon's demise and Kormir's ascension (in 1072 AE) that allowed them to sever their remaining ties with Tyria with that one loose thread resolved.

 

If the former, it raises an interesting question why Balthazar didn't deem it worthy of him to fight alongside his Eternals against the Shadowy Army and hunt down Menzies if it was combat that he craved so much that he was itching to fight the Elder Dragons later on. Then again, Grenth never made a move to assist the Reapers and other servants and denizens of the Underworld against Dhuum's continuous breakouts, and Kormir didn't personally go after Mallyx (one of Abaddon's top henchmen) after ascending either, so perhaps there's more to the gods not wanting to delve too deep into their own realms' (Fissure of Woe, Underworld, Realm of Torment) issues that we've yet to learn.

 

Scott's comment may also suggest that the Eternal Battle ended in Balthy's favor as the [strange Burning Scrolls](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strange_Burning_Scroll) of the Herald of Balthazar state that "Things have changed since the Eternal Battle. We must adapt or be swept away in his burning rage." and that "Once, we followed the rules of the Eternal Battle, but this campaign is too important to be left to chance."

 

Peter Fries also showed up in one of the twitch guild chats about PoF narrative (as a dev commenter in the text area, not in person on video with Rubi and co) and explained when asked that original PoF draft had more references to Menzies until, for one reason or another, those references were cut to the few obscure ones we have in PoF today and that he'd rather not divulge what those original details were in case those ideas were to be used later. Admittedly that's a standard comment when asked about plot details (see e.g. dev comments to some questions asking clarification for some of the obscure unresolved plot threads from GW1 in the recent lore-focused ArenaNet Forum Chats), so it's possible they won't return to it anytime soon.

 

However, I wouldn't be surprised if details on Menzies's fate and what really happened in the Eternal Battle may come up again, perhaps in a raid wing to address the plot of these not as integral plot threads as kind of happened with Dhuum and the Seven Reapers in the Hall of Chains. The narrative devs did state that the gods' plot isn't over and that there's more to Balthy's story and motivations than him just following his nature as conflict, so it remains to be seen whether we'll see any of the Six again (e.g. Lyssa as Ilya and/or Lyss returning as an antagonist or us otherwise finding out what the deal is with her and Balthy), find Menzies alive (or get books etc. explaining what really happened with him off screen), or learn what happened to the divinity taken from Balthazar (if he had a successor, which seems more likely now given Bobby Stein's comment from a while back but of course not confirmed yet, and who that successor might be) or otherwise learn whatever they're up to. :)

 

Speaking of Balthy's hissy fit and him kind of acting out of character in PoF (even though devs did state that he had always been ruthless, carrying the head of his father and slaying Kaolai in anger for losing to him in a game only to show him some respect afterwards as what was stated to be a rare gesture etc.), some folks in the community have speculated if Lyssa or some other influence had something to do with him going all psychopath on us. We did learn a bit more about Balthy's "better" side from Queen Yasamin of Siren's Landing who, while fanatical towards her god, [did state to us in Siren's Landing](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Flow_of_Magic) that Balthazar had visited her and been gracious in her presence while asking her to maintain his reliquary, so he wasn't all rage all the time:

 

> **Queen Yasamin:** The best news of all. Soon Orr will be ours and we can coax the gods back. Balthazar was a sight for sore eyes.

> **Player:** So you saw him? Here?

> **Queen Yasamin:** Oh yes. He came to visit his reliquary, and I was the first to greet him.

> **Queen Yasamin:** He was gracious and asked me to maintain the reliquary, but when he left, it went still.

 

I'd have loved to have seen more of this side of Balthazar (apart from his attempt for us to join forces with him in Season 3) to flesh him out and give him more "redeeming" qualities as an antagonist, but that's a discussion for another topic. :)

 

Anyway, regarding the "bad influence" on Balthazar, let's take a look at an interesting detail in the [Parable of Balthazar](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Parables_of_the_Gods#A_Parable_of_Balthazar) found in Siren's Landing:

 

> Walking upon a battlefield strewn with the dead, Balthazar, the god of war, blessed each of the corpses for their valor, until he came across one who had not fought but had cowered. Balthazar could smell the stink of fear, and so he reached into the man and pulled forth his soul. He held it in place as he scrutinized it.

>

> The soul was no more courageous in death than it had been in life, and it trembled and whimpered. It bowed its spine and hid its face.

>

> "You," said the god, "do not belong here. You sully these brave men and women who died in honorable combat. You will cower behind them no more."

>

> Balthazar folded the soul, bent it and broke it, crushed it until it was hidden inside his clasped hands. Then he opened his mouth wide, and shoved the soul in, consuming it whole.

>

> Once it was gone, Balthazar shouted to the dead, "You carried this coward when he lived. **Now, I carry him, for he serves as my reminder** that strength and courage are never to be taken for granted." [emphasis mine]

 

Before I continue, let's take a look at another interesting bit of lore from GW1 from Kormir's ascension in [Abaddon's Gate](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon%27s_Gate):

 

> **Player:** Kormir?

> **Kormir:** No. Yes. Kormir. And much more.

> **Player:** Abaddon?

> **Kormir:** No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day.

 

Koss mentioned in one of his books that Kormir the human died that day. And indeed, the Goddess of Truth that was born from the choice that only a mortal could make had aspects of both Abaddon and Kormir. Whether the "His will is broken" comment suggests that Abaddon as a broken entity survived somewhere outside the goddess's body or was consumed within the goddess to become part of her (hence the assimilation of his knowledge) but never rise again is unclear, however, as I don't think the enigmatic phrase is ever elaborated on afterwards.

 

About the above quotes, there's an interesting bit in Finnish mythology where, if a deity/hero consumed someone else's power/soul, that other power/soul ended up affecting the consumer (I'm sure the concept is found in other shamanistic mythologies as well). In some cases if the will of the slain was stronger, it might even overtake the consumer's personality if they weren't careful. If the devs decided to go with Balthazar beating Menzies off screen (seems like an unlikely scenario, though, as I imagine they'd want to hype up the playerbase with an actual encounter with Menzies for maximum impact, but who knows), perhaps Balthy literally did to him what the parable suggested he did to the hypothetical soul of a coward. If he ate Menzies and was actually influenced by Menzies's personality as a kind of ironic turn of events, perhaps that could partly explain his more deceptive tactics and causing so much destruction (as Menzies was known as a deceiver and had the monicker Lord of Destruction).

 

Granted, the above explanation seems unlikely given the dev comments mentioned earlier, but it's still a fun little bit to think about in case Balthazar's parable was meant to have a deeper meaning than just showing the darker if understandable side of the god (similar to how the other parables described other gods). :)