MUDse.7623 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > The problem is it's not efficient for DPS in the first place, it actually does less damage than the old setup use to do when using a Rifle. What's more it makes the Deadeye's Rifle way to clunky for usage in PvE, even with moving the Stealth to the end of the Dodge, it still doesn't make this any more efficient for PvE usage. > > As for the matter of Stealth, it shouldn't be a forced mechanic to take in the first place. As to why take Daredevil over Deadeye? Cause of the Sniper like play style the Deadeye gives... Or use to Give in this place. If I want to be an Evasive Melee user I'll just play my Mirage, it's much more satisfying. But if I want to be a long range DPS that crits 10-20-30 or even 40k on rare occasions? I chose Deadeye. Now the Dev's are trying to force this awkward in and out of stealth all the time focused play style that gets just plain boring and irritating to play after a while. It's not as Satisfying at the old Deadeye was. > > The old Deadeye could be a Stealth Master, or a Non-Stealthy Sniper-Assassin that could perch on Cliff sides, Pillars, Rooftops. and pick enemy's off from afar with out having to get involved up close. Now the Deadeye isn't a Deadeye. It's more of a Gunslinger who's up close, down into the fray, leaping in and out of Stealth, always moving. Also I'd like to mention Pistols are more efficient than Rifle now thanks to the changes. So Gunslinger is an apt description at this point hmm guess i understand. i play mainly thief in WvW. in PvE i play mesmer. a gunslinger that hops in and out of stealth can be designed way stronger for pvp then a sniper that camps stealth to oneshot, therefor i welcome the changes for the pvp aspect and would not want a full revert. but maybe there is a solution that would help both. in another feedback thread that got merged i proposed the following , wich ofc is not mentioned in to opening as it is partially a revert. i want Cursed Bullet back as the stealth attack , now with new malice system it could convert more boons with more malice. I really dont see myself using snipers cover unless for a cheap smoke combo field, so i would like to put DJ back there, then the rifle the iconic DE weapon would have 2 malice attacks one from stealth and one visible as DJ is allways revealing anyway so DJ is IMO already not really a stealth attack. the problem with DJ as a stealth attack is the selfreveal, we need this attack to hit for the malice system but it is very obvious and slow, while the self reveal prevents a quick recast on fail. cursed bullet was also slow, but if evaded didnt break stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcaruss.9567 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > > > The problem is it's not efficient for DPS in the first place, it actually does less damage than the old setup use to do when using a Rifle. What's more it makes the Deadeye's Rifle way to clunky for usage in PvE, even with moving the Stealth to the end of the Dodge, it still doesn't make this any more efficient for PvE usage. > > > > As for the matter of Stealth, it shouldn't be a forced mechanic to take in the first place. As to why take Daredevil over Deadeye? Cause of the Sniper like play style the Deadeye gives... Or use to Give in this place. If I want to be an Evasive Melee user I'll just play my Mirage, it's much more satisfying. But if I want to be a long range DPS that crits 10-20-30 or even 40k on rare occasions? I chose Deadeye. Now the Dev's are trying to force this awkward in and out of stealth all the time focused play style that gets just plain boring and irritating to play after a while. It's not as Satisfying at the old Deadeye was. > > > > The old Deadeye could be a Stealth Master, or a Non-Stealthy Sniper-Assassin that could perch on Cliff sides, Pillars, Rooftops. and pick enemy's off from afar with out having to get involved up close. Now the Deadeye isn't a Deadeye. It's more of a Gunslinger who's up close, down into the fray, leaping in and out of Stealth, always moving. Also I'd like to mention Pistols are more efficient than Rifle now thanks to the changes. So Gunslinger is an apt description at this point > > hmm guess i understand. i play mainly thief in WvW. in PvE i play mesmer. > a gunslinger that hops in and out of stealth can be designed way stronger for pvp then a sniper that camps stealth to oneshot, therefor i welcome the changes for the pvp aspect and would not want a full revert. > but maybe there is a solution that would help both. > in another feedback thread that got merged i proposed the following , wich ofc is not mentioned in to opening as it is partially a revert. > i want Cursed Bullet back as the stealth attack , now with new malice system it could convert more boons with more malice. > I really dont see myself using snipers cover unless for a cheap smoke combo field, so i would like to put DJ back there, then the rifle the iconic DE weapon would have 2 malice attacks one from stealth and one visible as DJ is allways revealing anyway so DJ is IMO already not really a stealth attack. > the problem with DJ as a stealth attack is the selfreveal, we need this attack to hit for the malice system but it is very obvious and slow, while the self reveal prevents a quick recast on fail. cursed bullet was also slow, but if evaded didnt break stealth. To be honest, P/P has no natural stealth mechanics outside of 5-0 Utility, Only way it could be Easily done is P/D-P/P for the Dagger Stealth #5. Plus there comes the conflict with the #3 on the Pistol being all Physical damage, while the #1 Stealth Attack is Condition based. The only reason to Dump Malice for a P/P type is to just keep spamming #3 over and over and over and over again, Stack M7 to cap get the Boons, Dump Malice and repeat... not a lot of skill required for the payoff. IMO this Malice system just promotes skill spamming to max malice out, whether it's #3 Unload, #3 Death Blossom, #3 Shadow Shot, #3 Double Tap, or Three Round Burst, to Spam them to reach Max Malice just to dump it in stealth and repeat.... It's pretty bland, boring, and repetitive... Atleast the old system promoted more free play and didn't emphasize spamming skills over and over again to max your end result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithril Ashwalker.6230 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 make Deaths judgement skill 4 in Kneel again and place the Snipers Cover into a new F3 slot costing initiative that you can only use while kneeled. make the Dodge to stealth a unique modifier...If you dodge and you are under revealed status then revealed is removed. IF you are NOT under revealed then you dodge and are stealthed. Bring back cursed Bullet make the snipers cover blind foes like Black Powder...its a god damned smoke field after all! also fix projectile finishers not working with the snipers cover...only blasts work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > > > > > The problem is it's not efficient for DPS in the first place, it actually does less damage than the old setup use to do when using a Rifle. What's more it makes the Deadeye's Rifle way to clunky for usage in PvE, even with moving the Stealth to the end of the Dodge, it still doesn't make this any more efficient for PvE usage. > > > > > > As for the matter of Stealth, it shouldn't be a forced mechanic to take in the first place. As to why take Daredevil over Deadeye? Cause of the Sniper like play style the Deadeye gives... Or use to Give in this place. If I want to be an Evasive Melee user I'll just play my Mirage, it's much more satisfying. But if I want to be a long range DPS that crits 10-20-30 or even 40k on rare occasions? I chose Deadeye. Now the Dev's are trying to force this awkward in and out of stealth all the time focused play style that gets just plain boring and irritating to play after a while. It's not as Satisfying at the old Deadeye was. > > > > > > The old Deadeye could be a Stealth Master, or a Non-Stealthy Sniper-Assassin that could perch on Cliff sides, Pillars, Rooftops. and pick enemy's off from afar with out having to get involved up close. Now the Deadeye isn't a Deadeye. It's more of a Gunslinger who's up close, down into the fray, leaping in and out of Stealth, always moving. Also I'd like to mention Pistols are more efficient than Rifle now thanks to the changes. So Gunslinger is an apt description at this point > > > > hmm guess i understand. i play mainly thief in WvW. in PvE i play mesmer. > > a gunslinger that hops in and out of stealth can be designed way stronger for pvp then a sniper that camps stealth to oneshot, therefor i welcome the changes for the pvp aspect and would not want a full revert. > > but maybe there is a solution that would help both. > > in another feedback thread that got merged i proposed the following , wich ofc is not mentioned in to opening as it is partially a revert. > > i want Cursed Bullet back as the stealth attack , now with new malice system it could convert more boons with more malice. > > I really dont see myself using snipers cover unless for a cheap smoke combo field, so i would like to put DJ back there, then the rifle the iconic DE weapon would have 2 malice attacks one from stealth and one visible as DJ is allways revealing anyway so DJ is IMO already not really a stealth attack. > > the problem with DJ as a stealth attack is the selfreveal, we need this attack to hit for the malice system but it is very obvious and slow, while the self reveal prevents a quick recast on fail. cursed bullet was also slow, but if evaded didnt break stealth. > > To be honest, P/P has no natural stealth mechanics outside of 5-0 Utility, Only way it could be Easily done is P/D-P/P for the Dagger Stealth #5. Plus there comes the conflict with the #3 on the Pistol being all Physical damage, while the #1 Stealth Attack is Condition based. The only reason to Dump Malice for a P/P type is to just keep spamming #3 over and over and over and over again, Stack M7 to cap get the Boons, Dump Malice and repeat... not a lot of skill required for the payoff. > > IMO this Malice system just promotes skill spamming to max malice out, whether it's #3 Unload, #3 Death Blossom, #3 Shadow Shot, #3 Double Tap, or Three Round Burst, to Spam them to reach Max Malice just to dump it in stealth and repeat.... It's pretty bland, boring, and repetitive... Atleast the old system promoted more free play and didn't emphasize spamming skills over and over again to max your end result. the old system was autoattack and put a weight on your DJ key and ofc a bit of utility and mark/stolen skills spamm on cd. every pve rotation is repetitive. i really dont see what exactly you want to propose here i mean this is a thread to gather suggestions to improve the spec and you pretty much just say that you dont like all about it but would like a non stealth sniper build. if you do, make suggestions that would lead to it and keep other modes in mind when doing them. deadeye is overall already not in a good position giving up more viability for 'style' is not an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcaruss.9567 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > > > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > > > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > > > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > > > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > > > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > > > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > > > > > > > The problem is it's not efficient for DPS in the first place, it actually does less damage than the old setup use to do when using a Rifle. What's more it makes the Deadeye's Rifle way to clunky for usage in PvE, even with moving the Stealth to the end of the Dodge, it still doesn't make this any more efficient for PvE usage. > > > > > > > > As for the matter of Stealth, it shouldn't be a forced mechanic to take in the first place. As to why take Daredevil over Deadeye? Cause of the Sniper like play style the Deadeye gives... Or use to Give in this place. If I want to be an Evasive Melee user I'll just play my Mirage, it's much more satisfying. But if I want to be a long range DPS that crits 10-20-30 or even 40k on rare occasions? I chose Deadeye. Now the Dev's are trying to force this awkward in and out of stealth all the time focused play style that gets just plain boring and irritating to play after a while. It's not as Satisfying at the old Deadeye was. > > > > > > > > The old Deadeye could be a Stealth Master, or a Non-Stealthy Sniper-Assassin that could perch on Cliff sides, Pillars, Rooftops. and pick enemy's off from afar with out having to get involved up close. Now the Deadeye isn't a Deadeye. It's more of a Gunslinger who's up close, down into the fray, leaping in and out of Stealth, always moving. Also I'd like to mention Pistols are more efficient than Rifle now thanks to the changes. So Gunslinger is an apt description at this point > > > > > > hmm guess i understand. i play mainly thief in WvW. in PvE i play mesmer. > > > a gunslinger that hops in and out of stealth can be designed way stronger for pvp then a sniper that camps stealth to oneshot, therefor i welcome the changes for the pvp aspect and would not want a full revert. > > > but maybe there is a solution that would help both. > > > in another feedback thread that got merged i proposed the following , wich ofc is not mentioned in to opening as it is partially a revert. > > > i want Cursed Bullet back as the stealth attack , now with new malice system it could convert more boons with more malice. > > > I really dont see myself using snipers cover unless for a cheap smoke combo field, so i would like to put DJ back there, then the rifle the iconic DE weapon would have 2 malice attacks one from stealth and one visible as DJ is allways revealing anyway so DJ is IMO already not really a stealth attack. > > > the problem with DJ as a stealth attack is the selfreveal, we need this attack to hit for the malice system but it is very obvious and slow, while the self reveal prevents a quick recast on fail. cursed bullet was also slow, but if evaded didnt break stealth. > > > > To be honest, P/P has no natural stealth mechanics outside of 5-0 Utility, Only way it could be Easily done is P/D-P/P for the Dagger Stealth #5. Plus there comes the conflict with the #3 on the Pistol being all Physical damage, while the #1 Stealth Attack is Condition based. The only reason to Dump Malice for a P/P type is to just keep spamming #3 over and over and over and over again, Stack M7 to cap get the Boons, Dump Malice and repeat... not a lot of skill required for the payoff. > > > > IMO this Malice system just promotes skill spamming to max malice out, whether it's #3 Unload, #3 Death Blossom, #3 Shadow Shot, #3 Double Tap, or Three Round Burst, to Spam them to reach Max Malice just to dump it in stealth and repeat.... It's pretty bland, boring, and repetitive... Atleast the old system promoted more free play and didn't emphasize spamming skills over and over again to max your end result. > > the old system was autoattack and put a weight on your DJ key and ofc a bit of utility and mark/stolen skills spamm on cd. every pve rotation is repetitive. i really dont see what exactly you want to propose here i mean this is a thread to gather suggestions to improve the spec and you pretty much just say that you dont like all about it but would like a non stealth sniper build. if you do, make suggestions that would lead to it and keep other modes in mind when doing them. deadeye is overall already not in a good position giving up more viability for 'style' is not an option. I already made my proposals on the first page. Apparently no one looks at them cause I never see anyone quoting them...... So I'll repost them again here I suppose... /Shrug. > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said: > > > Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool. > > > > > > So first things first... > > > We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait. > > > > > > Moving forward from here… > > > You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums. > > > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said: > > > Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool. > > > > > > So first things first... > > > We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait. > > > > > > Moving forward from here… > > > You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums. > > > > > > My Solution would be to find a way to utilize Malice consumption in more ways rather than just on Stealth Skills. > > I know I'm quoting myself here but I thought it would be better than Editing the old one. I've been sitting here pondering after I posted that on a way to use Malice outside of Stealth Skill, and I think I just figured out how. > > Mr. Gee, would you be beyond adding a new F3 skill to the Deadeye? I've seen people recommend it before but, not in a manner like I am going to propose to you now. Basically as it stands I cannot see a way of adding a malice consuming ability to any of the weapons by itself. And to be honest I am fond of this new Stealth System but only on certain weapons. IE: Certain weapons meaning everything BUT Rifle. I feel moving Deaths Judgement was some what drastic and threw off the balance of the weapon. > > Any who, my new Idea is giving Deadeye an F3 ability which consumes Malice. This ability would be based upon the main hand weapon the Thief is holding. It's a bit of a knock off of the Warrior Adrenaline F1 skill, but I cannot see any other way to make Malice consumption usable outside of Stealth in it's current interpretation. Obviously there needs to be advantages and disadvantages to using either the in stealth skill or the out of stealth skill, I'll leave that decision to the team if this Idea is good enough to adopt. But it goes with out saying, the skills for the F3 being based upon the Main Hand Weapon need to be comparably strong to the stealth counter parts. Since Stealth Skills are unblockable maybe knock off the unblockable perk on the F3 skill. > > This is all just a suggestion though. I'll leave you the decision as to whether it's suiting enough to be used. And thank you for taking the time to listen and respond to feed back. Always a welcome sight. > > Edit: I just thought of this real quick, but maybe as to not conflict with the F3 skill while in stealth, the F3 skill could change over to a more defensive based skill while in stealth that consumes malice too that way the there won't be this disparity of confusion about using the F3 skill while stealthed. As to whether this skill is weapon based too or not, I'll leave that up in the air for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > > > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > > > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > > > > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > > > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > > > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > > > > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > > > > > > > > > The problem is it's not efficient for DPS in the first place, it actually does less damage than the old setup use to do when using a Rifle. What's more it makes the Deadeye's Rifle way to clunky for usage in PvE, even with moving the Stealth to the end of the Dodge, it still doesn't make this any more efficient for PvE usage. > > > > > > > > > > As for the matter of Stealth, it shouldn't be a forced mechanic to take in the first place. As to why take Daredevil over Deadeye? Cause of the Sniper like play style the Deadeye gives... Or use to Give in this place. If I want to be an Evasive Melee user I'll just play my Mirage, it's much more satisfying. But if I want to be a long range DPS that crits 10-20-30 or even 40k on rare occasions? I chose Deadeye. Now the Dev's are trying to force this awkward in and out of stealth all the time focused play style that gets just plain boring and irritating to play after a while. It's not as Satisfying at the old Deadeye was. > > > > > > > > > > The old Deadeye could be a Stealth Master, or a Non-Stealthy Sniper-Assassin that could perch on Cliff sides, Pillars, Rooftops. and pick enemy's off from afar with out having to get involved up close. Now the Deadeye isn't a Deadeye. It's more of a Gunslinger who's up close, down into the fray, leaping in and out of Stealth, always moving. Also I'd like to mention Pistols are more efficient than Rifle now thanks to the changes. So Gunslinger is an apt description at this point > > > > > > > > hmm guess i understand. i play mainly thief in WvW. in PvE i play mesmer. > > > > a gunslinger that hops in and out of stealth can be designed way stronger for pvp then a sniper that camps stealth to oneshot, therefor i welcome the changes for the pvp aspect and would not want a full revert. > > > > but maybe there is a solution that would help both. > > > > in another feedback thread that got merged i proposed the following , wich ofc is not mentioned in to opening as it is partially a revert. > > > > i want Cursed Bullet back as the stealth attack , now with new malice system it could convert more boons with more malice. > > > > I really dont see myself using snipers cover unless for a cheap smoke combo field, so i would like to put DJ back there, then the rifle the iconic DE weapon would have 2 malice attacks one from stealth and one visible as DJ is allways revealing anyway so DJ is IMO already not really a stealth attack. > > > > the problem with DJ as a stealth attack is the selfreveal, we need this attack to hit for the malice system but it is very obvious and slow, while the self reveal prevents a quick recast on fail. cursed bullet was also slow, but if evaded didnt break stealth. > > > > > > To be honest, P/P has no natural stealth mechanics outside of 5-0 Utility, Only way it could be Easily done is P/D-P/P for the Dagger Stealth #5. Plus there comes the conflict with the #3 on the Pistol being all Physical damage, while the #1 Stealth Attack is Condition based. The only reason to Dump Malice for a P/P type is to just keep spamming #3 over and over and over and over again, Stack M7 to cap get the Boons, Dump Malice and repeat... not a lot of skill required for the payoff. > > > > > > IMO this Malice system just promotes skill spamming to max malice out, whether it's #3 Unload, #3 Death Blossom, #3 Shadow Shot, #3 Double Tap, or Three Round Burst, to Spam them to reach Max Malice just to dump it in stealth and repeat.... It's pretty bland, boring, and repetitive... Atleast the old system promoted more free play and didn't emphasize spamming skills over and over again to max your end result. > > > > the old system was autoattack and put a weight on your DJ key and ofc a bit of utility and mark/stolen skills spamm on cd. every pve rotation is repetitive. i really dont see what exactly you want to propose here i mean this is a thread to gather suggestions to improve the spec and you pretty much just say that you dont like all about it but would like a non stealth sniper build. if you do, make suggestions that would lead to it and keep other modes in mind when doing them. deadeye is overall already not in a good position giving up more viability for 'style' is not an option. > > I already made my proposals on the first page. Apparently no one looks at them cause I never see anyone quoting them...... So I'll repost them again here I suppose... /Shrug. > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said: > > > > Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool. > > > > > > > > So first things first... > > > > We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait. > > > > > > > > Moving forward from here… > > > > You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums. > > > > > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said: > > > > Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool. > > > > > > > > So first things first... > > > > We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait. > > > > > > > > Moving forward from here… > > > > You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums. > > > > > > > > > My Solution would be to find a way to utilize Malice consumption in more ways rather than just on Stealth Skills. > > > > I know I'm quoting myself here but I thought it would be better than Editing the old one. I've been sitting here pondering after I posted that on a way to use Malice outside of Stealth Skill, and I think I just figured out how. > > > > Mr. Gee, would you be beyond adding a new F3 skill to the Deadeye? I've seen people recommend it before but, not in a manner like I am going to propose to you now. Basically as it stands I cannot see a way of adding a malice consuming ability to any of the weapons by itself. And to be honest I am fond of this new Stealth System but only on certain weapons. IE: Certain weapons meaning everything BUT Rifle. I feel moving Deaths Judgement was some what drastic and threw off the balance of the weapon. > > > > Any who, my new Idea is giving Deadeye an F3 ability which consumes Malice. This ability would be based upon the main hand weapon the Thief is holding. It's a bit of a knock off of the Warrior Adrenaline F1 skill, but I cannot see any other way to make Malice consumption usable outside of Stealth in it's current interpretation. Obviously there needs to be advantages and disadvantages to using either the in stealth skill or the out of stealth skill, I'll leave that decision to the team if this Idea is good enough to adopt. But it goes with out saying, the skills for the F3 being based upon the Main Hand Weapon need to be comparably strong to the stealth counter parts. Since Stealth Skills are unblockable maybe knock off the unblockable perk on the F3 skill. > > > > This is all just a suggestion though. I'll leave you the decision as to whether it's suiting enough to be used. And thank you for taking the time to listen and respond to feed back. Always a welcome sight. > > > > Edit: I just thought of this real quick, but maybe as to not conflict with the F3 skill while in stealth, the F3 skill could change over to a more defensive based skill while in stealth that consumes malice too that way the there won't be this disparity of confusion about using the F3 skill while stealthed. As to whether this skill is weapon based too or not, I'll leave that up in the air for now. > > see suggestion there is like it should be, then you come on 3rd page without quoting any1 or anything making a new point that Deadeye is too much stealth depended without adding further suggestions, that is too open and derails the thread. therefor i will stop it now here if you do not have any further suggestions and answer suggestions to your issue with ignoring them while keep complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stone cold.8609 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: snip... > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? The re-worked Deadeye elite gives a mechanic and combinations of boons (greater initiative generation, improved stolen skills, long up time fury, swiftness, regen, vigor, might boons, more options for CC) that can't be found with core or Daredevil and synergizes very well with a non-stealth melee build. Look at the traits in the new elite - other than a portion of Deadeye's Gaze that grafts malice consumption and bonus damage to a new stealth attack, only one trait in the entire Deadeye elite mentions stealth- Silent Scope for the rifle. There is a lot of good stuff in Deadeye for all kinds of Thief builds, not just stealth heavy ones. I'm a PvE player who gave up stealth (except for skips in instanced content) about 5 years ago, currently playing a D/D condi build and have switched over to the new Deadeye. The only issue I have with it currently is that the bonus damage from malice generation is tied to stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcaruss.9567 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > > > > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > > > > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > > > > > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Alright so I have a hypothetical scenario for you people who continue to say this whole Stealth focused Deadeye is the best thing since sliced bread. Since you all think it's great lets apply the old saying "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander" and apply the same changes to Daredevil eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Hypothetical Example Changes) > > > > > > > > > > > > So, lets take Staff on Daredevil, Rip #5 Vault off of the staff replace it with a silly staff spin move that reflects projectiles, give Daredevil a new Energy source called "Acrobatic Momentum" Where you gain energy for it from using Acrobatic themed attacks that use Initiative, and also stacks when you preform a Dodge. Replace one of the Grand Master Trait so where you Acrobatically leap into Stealth, name it "Leap into the Shadows". The higher the Acrobatic Momentum energy you have the stronger your Stealth skills are, every skill on every weapon's Stealth skill is replaced with an Acrobatic themed skill based on the weapon. And Vault is now the Auto Attack Stealth Skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now tell me how would you feel about that? Daredevil already jumps through hoops to deal damage, why not make it jump through even more to do efficient damage? Doesn't that seem fun? Interesting? Intuitive? Unique? Or does it make the class seem over complicated, boring, a chore to play, not fun in general? I'll let the people decide... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil improves thief's acrobatic potential, while DE the stealth potential. > > > > > > > > > > > the diffference is daredevil IMO is a rather defensive/utility traitline in granting an aditional evade at the beginning of the fight, endurance on steal , heal on evade. etc. therefor people often option for either acrobatics or daredevil, rarely for both. ontop acrobatics had to be nerfed alot. improving on the acrobatics part, daredevil should have gotten a little bit more like mirage now, attacking during evades . that would have gone alot better with acrobatics. > > > > > > > > > > > deadeye on the other hand is a mostly offensive traitline so it makes sense to run it with SA, unless ofc you are in PvE where you do not need any defense. > > > > > > > > > > > daredevil was poorly designed for an elite spec, deadeye is alot better in that aspect IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a point here MUDse, While I agree DE has more Stealth potential that doesn't mean it needs to be Stealth Focused. Stealth needs to be optional, player preferance. Not everyone loves Stealth. Outside of PvE, sure one can argue Stealth is crucial to the survival in a PvP/WvW environment, but there comes a problem when trying to force stealth focused and near forced play when trying to play in a PvE setting. I've done several dungeons now using my Deadeye and it's an absolute irritation trying to get into Stealth while in combat to use DJ. As already stated the Snipers Cover dodge is kitten near useless if you're already auto attacking, which will force you to pop a secondary stealth from your utility just to dump your Malice cause the first stealth failed. Not to mention the off change of the second stealth failing due to user input issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just trying to get the Daredevil users to see how utterly redundant it is to take a class that doesn't always need stealth, then suddenly push it to require stealth all of the time if it wishes to deal an efficient amount of damage regardless of build and play style. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but on daredevil people didnt complain about dodges in their rotation, what makes it so different while playing deadeye? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mainly cause a lot of the Daredevil's Dodge's do damage on their own, the one I personally use, I forget it's name at the moment but it's like a Dodge like version of Death Blossom that deals Damage and Conditions on targets you Dodge over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so the problem with it is that it is only a setup and not actually dealing damage itself...but if it is efficient for DPS who cares ? > > > > > > > > The problem with the Dodge-Stealth focused Deadeye is the problem of revealing yourself too soon, by accident or cause a bullet is in mid-air and hits the moment you dodge, causing you to have to scramble to force another stealth, just so you can use your Stealth Forced Attack Deaths Judgement now to dump your malice to keep restacking Malice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well they already annaounced to put the stealth towards the end of the dodge so you will be able to dodge as soon as the bullets leave your rifle and shouldnt be revealed, maybe it will feel better then. i know currently i do have to watch the bullets myself. killed myself with such a reveal 2-3 times in WvW. > > > > > > > > On Daredevil, Stealth is Optional, on Core Thief stealth is also Optional. On Deadeye though Stealth is mandatory to do max damage, whether you like it or not due to Stealth Attack skills consuming Malice now. > > > > > > > but why would you choose a non stealthy deadeye? if you can play like that on core or daredevil i mean thats what the elite specs do? take one aspect of a class and improve on it. if you do not want to play with stealth, why would you run deadeye over daredevil? > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is it's not efficient for DPS in the first place, it actually does less damage than the old setup use to do when using a Rifle. What's more it makes the Deadeye's Rifle way to clunky for usage in PvE, even with moving the Stealth to the end of the Dodge, it still doesn't make this any more efficient for PvE usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the matter of Stealth, it shouldn't be a forced mechanic to take in the first place. As to why take Daredevil over Deadeye? Cause of the Sniper like play style the Deadeye gives... Or use to Give in this place. If I want to be an Evasive Melee user I'll just play my Mirage, it's much more satisfying. But if I want to be a long range DPS that crits 10-20-30 or even 40k on rare occasions? I chose Deadeye. Now the Dev's are trying to force this awkward in and out of stealth all the time focused play style that gets just plain boring and irritating to play after a while. It's not as Satisfying at the old Deadeye was. > > > > > > > > > > > > The old Deadeye could be a Stealth Master, or a Non-Stealthy Sniper-Assassin that could perch on Cliff sides, Pillars, Rooftops. and pick enemy's off from afar with out having to get involved up close. Now the Deadeye isn't a Deadeye. It's more of a Gunslinger who's up close, down into the fray, leaping in and out of Stealth, always moving. Also I'd like to mention Pistols are more efficient than Rifle now thanks to the changes. So Gunslinger is an apt description at this point > > > > > > > > > > hmm guess i understand. i play mainly thief in WvW. in PvE i play mesmer. > > > > > a gunslinger that hops in and out of stealth can be designed way stronger for pvp then a sniper that camps stealth to oneshot, therefor i welcome the changes for the pvp aspect and would not want a full revert. > > > > > but maybe there is a solution that would help both. > > > > > in another feedback thread that got merged i proposed the following , wich ofc is not mentioned in to opening as it is partially a revert. > > > > > i want Cursed Bullet back as the stealth attack , now with new malice system it could convert more boons with more malice. > > > > > I really dont see myself using snipers cover unless for a cheap smoke combo field, so i would like to put DJ back there, then the rifle the iconic DE weapon would have 2 malice attacks one from stealth and one visible as DJ is allways revealing anyway so DJ is IMO already not really a stealth attack. > > > > > the problem with DJ as a stealth attack is the selfreveal, we need this attack to hit for the malice system but it is very obvious and slow, while the self reveal prevents a quick recast on fail. cursed bullet was also slow, but if evaded didnt break stealth. > > > > > > > > To be honest, P/P has no natural stealth mechanics outside of 5-0 Utility, Only way it could be Easily done is P/D-P/P for the Dagger Stealth #5. Plus there comes the conflict with the #3 on the Pistol being all Physical damage, while the #1 Stealth Attack is Condition based. The only reason to Dump Malice for a P/P type is to just keep spamming #3 over and over and over and over again, Stack M7 to cap get the Boons, Dump Malice and repeat... not a lot of skill required for the payoff. > > > > > > > > IMO this Malice system just promotes skill spamming to max malice out, whether it's #3 Unload, #3 Death Blossom, #3 Shadow Shot, #3 Double Tap, or Three Round Burst, to Spam them to reach Max Malice just to dump it in stealth and repeat.... It's pretty bland, boring, and repetitive... Atleast the old system promoted more free play and didn't emphasize spamming skills over and over again to max your end result. > > > > > > the old system was autoattack and put a weight on your DJ key and ofc a bit of utility and mark/stolen skills spamm on cd. every pve rotation is repetitive. i really dont see what exactly you want to propose here i mean this is a thread to gather suggestions to improve the spec and you pretty much just say that you dont like all about it but would like a non stealth sniper build. if you do, make suggestions that would lead to it and keep other modes in mind when doing them. deadeye is overall already not in a good position giving up more viability for 'style' is not an option. > > > > I already made my proposals on the first page. Apparently no one looks at them cause I never see anyone quoting them...... So I'll repost them again here I suppose... /Shrug. > > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said: > > > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said: > > > > > Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool. > > > > > > > > > > So first things first... > > > > > We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait. > > > > > > > > > > Moving forward from here… > > > > > You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums. > > > > > > > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said: > > > > > Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool. > > > > > > > > > > So first things first... > > > > > We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait. > > > > > > > > > > Moving forward from here… > > > > > You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > My Solution would be to find a way to utilize Malice consumption in more ways rather than just on Stealth Skills. > > > > > > I know I'm quoting myself here but I thought it would be better than Editing the old one. I've been sitting here pondering after I posted that on a way to use Malice outside of Stealth Skill, and I think I just figured out how. > > > > > > Mr. Gee, would you be beyond adding a new F3 skill to the Deadeye? I've seen people recommend it before but, not in a manner like I am going to propose to you now. Basically as it stands I cannot see a way of adding a malice consuming ability to any of the weapons by itself. And to be honest I am fond of this new Stealth System but only on certain weapons. IE: Certain weapons meaning everything BUT Rifle. I feel moving Deaths Judgement was some what drastic and threw off the balance of the weapon. > > > > > > Any who, my new Idea is giving Deadeye an F3 ability which consumes Malice. This ability would be based upon the main hand weapon the Thief is holding. It's a bit of a knock off of the Warrior Adrenaline F1 skill, but I cannot see any other way to make Malice consumption usable outside of Stealth in it's current interpretation. Obviously there needs to be advantages and disadvantages to using either the in stealth skill or the out of stealth skill, I'll leave that decision to the team if this Idea is good enough to adopt. But it goes with out saying, the skills for the F3 being based upon the Main Hand Weapon need to be comparably strong to the stealth counter parts. Since Stealth Skills are unblockable maybe knock off the unblockable perk on the F3 skill. > > > > > > This is all just a suggestion though. I'll leave you the decision as to whether it's suiting enough to be used. And thank you for taking the time to listen and respond to feed back. Always a welcome sight. > > > > > > Edit: I just thought of this real quick, but maybe as to not conflict with the F3 skill while in stealth, the F3 skill could change over to a more defensive based skill while in stealth that consumes malice too that way the there won't be this disparity of confusion about using the F3 skill while stealthed. As to whether this skill is weapon based too or not, I'll leave that up in the air for now. > > > > > > see suggestion there is like it should be, then you come on 3rd page without quoting any1 or anything making a new point that Deadeye is too much stealth depended without adding further suggestions, that is too open and derails the thread. therefor i will stop it now here if you do not have any further suggestions and answer suggestions to your issue with ignoring them while keep complaining. I will admit my opinion on the Deadeye does fluctuate with my mood... And my current temperament with Arena Net at the moment as well. There is still an Issue about my main account I'm still quite peeved about from the April 12th Debacle I've yet to get resolved and it kind of effects my overall opinion from time to time on part of me wanting to Support Anet and another part of me that's utterly furious at them. Basically what I put on the main page is my "Best case Scenario compromise" Solution. But I honestly would love a full roll back of the changes to the old system, but that is unlikely to happen so I'm just trying to get something that at least is enjoyable and functional at the very least... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnuschnu.9857 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"saerni.2584" said: > I’ll respond briefly to the stealth access issue for P/P compared to other sets. As mainhand Pistol has always been a hybrid weapon (Sneak Attack) the offhand has always determined the “flavor” of the set. P/P with Unload behaves more like a power focused hybrid and P/D is a condi focused hybrid (much more condi than power). I don’t consider the power/condi balance on Sneak Attack a DE issue (and one that I prefer to keep separate from a thread about DE). I agree with you on the hybrid nature of P/D. The auto has bleeding (and torment with the stealth attack and DE but the set has stealth access), the second can have poison with Deadly Arts (good for passive effect of poison and cover condi with weakness from Lotus Poison), Torment on 3 and 4, and poison on 5 if you trait for it (wouldn't make that much sense but the possibility exists at least). So minimum 3, maximum 5 skills of the set apply damaging conditions (minimum bleeding and torment, can take poison)+ some utility conditions (at least cripple, immobilize and vulnerability, can take weakness) on top. This screams condi or at least hybrid. P/P on the other hand has access to bleed via the stealth attack (torment with DE). That's it for damaging conditions **on the whole set**. (You could trait for poison, but this requires a whole condi trait lines for it to force a power set in a suboptimal hybrid role as is has only access to bleeding normaly due to missing stealth access for torment and the rest of the set doesn't support a condition focused play style). It has also access to blind, immobilize and vulnerability which work fine for power as the don't need condition damage to work properly. So minimum 1 skill, maximum 2 skills **of the whole set** apply conditions. Hardly a hydrid set, not even a power focused hydrid as you would only lose damage by focusing on hybrid due to the good power damage of 3 and gaining not that much from a 4s base duration bleed and nearly no access to torment due to stealth. Would be like saying D/P is hydrid because it has access to 1 damaging condition which can be applied at least regulary and heavily traited for with Deadly Arts (so at least 3 of 5 skills can apply damaging conditions), so much more reliable that the conditions of P/P. > That said, the Deadeye specific issue for P/P is that Malicious Sneak Attack is required to clear malice to use M7 in light of how easy it is to push max malice using Unload. This feels less like a reward and more like a chore. The solution might be to add some power-typed bonus in addition to torment. However, this may require taking some of the bonuses out of Unload to not make the set too strong. > > Ultimately, I feel this makes the, very real, P/P issue unsuitable for a Deadeye focused rework consolidation thread and more a general thread on how to reduce how overloaded Unload is for power P/P. The P/P problem is a deadeye rework problem as it became a problem only after the rework. Now DE offers not really much for P/P (M7 without stealth access is not that much). Even DrD as the melee spec offers more for the P/P set with Bounding Dodger for Stealth and flexible bonus damage (not only the marked target) or Unhindered Combatant for much needed mobility on a range weapon set and Impacting Disruption for pistol 4 or Escapist's Absolution for much needed condi cleanse. When after a rework a melee spec has more to offer for a ranged weapon set than the reworked ranged spec something is definitly wrong and this has nothing to do with hydrid or not. So imo the P/P problem is very real in conjunction with the deadeye rework and has to be addressed with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specialka.7290 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 Any issue DE p/p has, should come after DE Rifle fix. P/P is a secondary skilless specs which truely promotes spamming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo.1054 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"AikijinX.6258" said: > By the way great structured listing on the current problems with DE rework Saerni. @"saerni.2584" I was going to write something up myself, but you beat me to the punch. > > @"Robert Gee.9246" @"Gaile Gray.6029" : While your current attention is shifted towards this thread, can we also get a look at the interactivity with Kneel and Sniper's Cover (Kneel 4). > > *Problem: At it's current state, the interaction between the 2 skills are very clunky, and sluggish. Which either ends in having to double click #4 which results in a double Snipers cover (Wasted initiative) or the skill just doesn't register at all. This disrupts, and contradicts a Thief's fast pace nature and play style. > > Scenario: You're engaged in a heated battle with a ranger, or any said class with a ranged weapon equipped. You see them pull out their range weapon, and with your quick thinking, you want to counter, and destroy their projectile's with your smoke screen (Sniper's Cove), but die due to the fact that Kneeling, and then activating #4 immediately after takes far too much time.* > > Solution: Make Sniper's Cove instant cast, so there is no conflict or slowness with the use of skill presses. Or an Alternative would be to make Kneel instant cast which would result in being able to get out of kneel quicker and utilize (blast/combo) the smoke screen sooner. > > Thoughts? This is definitely a big problem. I died so many times because of kneel being so sluggish or simply not registering the fast button press. The other way around scenario is just as problematic - I'm kneeling and see the enemy approaching fast, so I want to stand up #5 and leap away with #4, but it's just way too unreliable and sluggish of a combo. It makes me feel like my thief is and 80 year old pops with knee problems. It feels like kneeling/standing up has a lot of aftercast and trying to make any action as follow-up doesn't really work well at all... :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vavume.8065 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 Remove kneel, it's the most clunky skill in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted May 14, 2018 Author Share Posted May 14, 2018 @"Schnuschnu.9857" The issues you identify can be summarized as: (1) P/P lacks innate stealth access, (2) players using P/P have to give up a utility slot or trait to gain stealth (if they want), (3) DE requires stealth access to cycle malice (forcing DE players to give up utility slots) and (4) the payoff for a stealth attack isn’t power focused. The difficulty is in figuring out how to make DE specific changes that don’t leave the set overpowered. Another issue is avoiding changing the essential flavor of P/P in the process of making changes. These difficulties are why I wanted to debate the issue separately because I’m honestly not sure how to frame the issue in a solely DE way. That’s not to say we can’t have a discussion and I really appreciate your post because it’s a subject that I’ve thought a bit about before in a holistic sense. Personally, I think P/P has needed an adjustment to Unload that promotes varied weapon skill use for a while. P/P always struck me as a glass cannon that relied too much on burst because its defenses were somewhat lacking. Daredevil brought mobility, stealth and pulmonary impact to the set and made it much more viable in all game modes. Deadeye simply reveals (no pun intended) the issue that Core P/P has (low stealth access and an over reliance on one skill for 90% of its damage). Although it doesn’t have any consensus and goes outside my original intent, because you made an eloquent argument about including it, I’d like to offer a suggestion for that. If it gets enough support or other suggestions get enough support I’ll add that into the summary OP. My solution would be to make Unload do more damage to targets with Torment. This synergizes with the torment on interrupt trait in Trickery and with the torment on M-Sneak Attack. It also gives a reason for both core and Deadeye to benefit from varied gameplay using other skills. It would be a nerf to unload used without the torment condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specialka.7290 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 Buffing Unload so it can do more dmg to tormented targets means its base dmg should be nerf, especially in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyros.4673 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 People are getting lost in the "complexity" and individual mechanics of the update to see that this really wasn't anything but a very poor change for Deadeye's Rifle in its entirety. The short of it is that it's just arbitrary and bad gameplay design, because it requires a lot of arbitrary resource management (stealth required for Death's Judgement, stealth being harder to access via needing to roll, which wastes endurance, on top of malice, initiative, endurance, and stealth-roll cooldown management) and that it got stripped of its one utility, cursed bullet. Now you have to perform a needlessly complex series of movements in order to actually DO the thing the class/weapon is supposed to do. It won't get reversed because all the time spent on it will be seen as a "sunk cost" and it'll be stuck to regardless with a few tweaks then ignored as time passes on. As far as I'm concerned, Deadeye is a lost cause for anything other than another class victim to DPS rotations and needlessly complex APM management, because for some reason it's not knowing the game design's mechanics that's skillful but rather buttonmashing your class' skills in a certain combination that's apparently what this was designed around. This is more of a criticism of the rifle and its current balance. In short, it's just clunky to play and try and manage and the prior iteration was practically perfect. Deadeye, and Rifle, was dramatically better prior to this change. In PVE it's a complete mess of handling ICDs, Endurance, Malice, and Initiative generation which utterly kills any utility you want to utilize in favor of arbitrary rotational management. It's *all needlessly complex*. Malice no longer doing a damage buff might have promoted maintaining instead of spending damage over time but now it's literally just another mechanic that adds nothing. Needing to DODGE to roll is frustrating because now it's two steps to activate the only damage ability worth a tosh in DPS for the rifle. It literally took Deadeye's Rifle and made it worse in every single way. The lack of cursed bullet kills the utility. The deployable cover is totally flavorless and just encourages more turtling gameplay instead of actively managing endurance (said endurance now wasted on stealth). Deadeye spends more time managing cover and said positioning anyways to begin with. For all the "complexity" Deadeye has now, it had by trying to stay alive to begin with. Now it's just needlessly frustrating to do damage, the main POINT of Deadeye's Rifle is locked behind two steps for stealth. It lost the utility through cursed bullet which not only gave it decent ranged utility but something sensible for stealth. Malice not doing damage bonuses makes it another pain in the rear system to manage on top of every other system to actually use the rifle. This is on top of the stealth required to use it. The problem is twofold: Death's Judgement as a concept makes stealth utterly redundant, especially in that Stealth in GW2 lasts* ALL BUT A FEW SECONDS.* Second, the class had better access to stealth prior via kneeling which was far more sensible and had much better game feel. The utter breakage in gameplay comes from this issue of NEEDING stealth instead of making it a tool, which limits the utilities one can access (making Rifle even more landlocked in skills making it less fun considering it also lacks cursed bullet now), managing endurance AND the internal cooldown, WHILE managing another resource (malice) that doesn't contribute to anything else, ON TOP of Marking Durations which can easily disappear in the time to manage it Honestly this change just looks like it was meant for PVP due to the removal of ease of access to stealth, arbitrary changes that just make it even more frustrating to use, and possibly merely tested on a DPS golem. So I'll say this: Deadeye's DPS and Rifle was perfect prior to this imbalanced, clunky mess of an update. It had a logical step in damage and progression that made it exceptional against single targets with good DPS. Staying alive was the main "skill" element, not the damage for PVE in smaller group oriented fights. In zergs it's all but irrelevant, and it should not be balanced simply because of zergs doing that much damage too: Deadeye can't burst nearly as well as other classes but ramps up over the course of a few seconds that in most big zergs, is irrelevant. Deadeye has now been lost to a sea of changes that ultimately have no direction what it wants to do with the class. It only looks at the skills and complexity to do ONE thing: damage. It was fantastic for it against a single target but few people would have used Deadeye for major zerg fests unless it had a lot of bosses that took a long time to kill. It would excel in raids once mastery of avoiding the red carpets was done, because it had the easiest access to DPS. However, it having limited mobility on top of the lowest effective health in the game was what took skill: managing your surroundings instead of your ICDs and cooldowns and internal resource management. THAT was what made Deadeye fun. THAT is what made Deadeye skillful to use. Not this needless nonsense of having to dodge to stealth or stripping Cursed Bullet (one of the few flavorful skills the Rifle had.) Tl;dr, tons of arbitrary mechanisms just to achieve half of what Deadeye was useful for before. Stealth is no longer a tool with access to a utility but just another checkbox for Deadeye to hit (on top of every other internal mechanic) in order to do damage, effectively wasting and losing any and all utility for the rifle via the loss of cursed bullet (boon strip!) and Stealth losing any meaning. Ultimately a loss in flexibility for the Rifle. Stealth is no longer a tactic for PVE, and the loss of it is complete disappointment on top of the lack of utility that came with the rifle. Ultimately a disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Hide.6345 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Specialka.7290" said: > Buffing Unload so it can do more dmg to tormented targets means its base dmg should be nerf, especially in pvp. I wouldn't say that nerf would be needed in PvP. Yes, it can hit somewhat hard, but there are so many stupid reflects and blocks in the game that it needs all the help it can get damage wise. It is especially true for PvE which needs all the damage boost help it can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnuschnu.9857 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"saerni.2584" said: > @"Schnuschnu.9857" > > The issues you identify can be summarized as: (1) P/P lacks innate stealth access, (2) players using P/P have to give up a utility slot or trait to gain stealth (if they want), (3) DE requires stealth access to cycle malice (forcing DE players to give up utility slots) and (4) the payoff for a stealth attack isn’t power focused. > > The difficulty is in figuring out how to make DE specific changes that don’t leave the set overpowered. Another issue is avoiding changing the essential flavor of P/P in the process of making changes. These difficulties are why I wanted to debate the issue separately because I’m honestly not sure how to frame the issue in a solely DE way. > > That’s not to say we can’t have a discussion and I really appreciate your post because it’s a subject that I’ve thought a bit about before in a holistic sense. Personally, I think P/P has needed an adjustment to Unload that promotes varied weapon skill use for a while. > > P/P always struck me as a glass cannon that relied too much on burst because its defenses were somewhat lacking. Daredevil brought mobility, stealth and pulmonary impact to the set and made it much more viable in all game modes. Deadeye simply reveals (no pun intended) the issue that Core P/P has (low stealth access and an over reliance on one skill for 90% of its damage). > > Although it doesn’t have any consensus and goes outside my original intent, because you made an eloquent argument about including it, I’d like to offer a suggestion for that. If it gets enough support or other suggestions get enough support I’ll add that into the summary OP. > > My solution would be to make Unload do more damage to targets with Torment. This synergizes with the torment on interrupt trait in Trickery and with the torment on M-Sneak Attack. It also gives a reason for both core and Deadeye to benefit from varied gameplay using other skills. It would be a nerf to unload used without the torment condition. > First of all, I really appreciate you taking your time for this matter as it wasn't the original intent of your thread and making such a great offer. I agree with you about the fact that changing P/P is important but can't be done by the DE spec alone. Your suggestion is interesting but wouldn't do just because it fits only with specific specs (DE and Trickery, making them mandatory thus limiting build diversity) but has no synergy with the base set. But it gave me an idea for a possible solution which would allow for more hydrid play without hurting power or changing the stealth attack for pistol mainhand as it fits P/D perfect and we don't want to destroy good existing synergy for the sake of one set. So why not handle Unload a bit like [Feast of Corruption](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast_of_Corruption "Feast of Corruption"). Let it profit from conditions on the target. First weaken the damage of Unload, then let it deal some bonus damage per condition on the target (synergy with core P/P which can apply at least blind, immobilize, bleeding and vulnerability (+torment as DE and poison via trait)). This way the additional torment by the stealth attack would result in a damage boost either way (condition damage for condition build, boost of Unload for power or a bit of both for hybrid). You could also let it grant bonus Might for more conditions which opens up different play styles: (1) loading the enemy with conditions and then spike might for additional damage, (2) just get some conditions on the enemy which you would inflict anyway and gain profit for power (3) teamplay with another condition based build for synergy with other professions (something thief lacks). It would have synergy with all specs (Core and both elites: for example Venoms in general, Imparing Daggers (DrD), Binding Shadow (DE) etc.) but profits the most from DE (knockdown & immobilize of Binding Shadow + initative refund of Unload). This would also allow to up the initiative costs of Unload to prevent spam but make it more meaningful to set it up and land it. This change enables also much higher DPS for PvE as there are many conditions on the boss anyway. Stealth access remains an issue but there were some suggestions about this in the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specialka.7290 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said: > > @"Specialka.7290" said: > > Buffing Unload so it can do more dmg to tormented targets means its base dmg should be nerf, especially in pvp. > > I wouldn't say that nerf would be needed in PvP. Yes, it can hit somewhat hard, but there are so many stupid reflects and blocks in the game that it needs all the help it can get damage wise. It is especially true for PvE which needs all the damage boost help it can get. The issue is it hits hard for basically no skill nor rotation required. A such simple build should not be able to compete with harder to play build. It should be viable, but not optimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinnel.4369 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 While I like the current changes to stealth on dodge and DJ on stealth, kneel is even clunkier than what we got used to before. The situations where it pays off to root yourself are incredibly few to me. There's much easier access to stealth, #4 could be a nice field for stomp except you can cleave it out before you set it up. It'd be nice if kneel or whatever you want to call it was a mechanic akin to photon forge where you made a rapid transformation with a cooldown before you could leave and had a very short window resource to manage or steep penalty (high initiative cost, cripple equivalent movement speed, etc.) You can set up a smoke field, get off an immob, bonus #3, or DJ, but then you have to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Hide.6345 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Specialka.7290" said: > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said: > > > @"Specialka.7290" said: > > > Buffing Unload so it can do more dmg to tormented targets means its base dmg should be nerf, especially in pvp. > > > > I wouldn't say that nerf would be needed in PvP. Yes, it can hit somewhat hard, but there are so many stupid reflects and blocks in the game that it needs all the help it can get damage wise. It is especially true for PvE which needs all the damage boost help it can get. > > The issue is it hits hard for basically no skill nor rotation required. A such simple build should not be able to compete with harder to play build. It should be viable, but not optimal. I don't see that as an issue though. The fact is that range combat already stinks enough with how many stupid blocks and reflects classes have making most range useless from the get go. Limiting its power just because it is not has complex as others should not mean unload needs to be nerfed. You would just be shooting the weapons in the foot making them worse or just the same as is which is not where they should be. As they currently stand, they do need some love and lots of buffs just to make them competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted May 14, 2018 Author Share Posted May 14, 2018 Hmm, I had a thought that was basically “what we really mean is ‘how can we apply vulnerability without buffing Sneak Attack.’” So it made me think that Unload could apply a stacking charge that can be converted into vulnerability by a Sneak Attack. Example: unload applies a 10 second self buff (stacks intensity up to 8 times) that applies vulnerability to a target struck with a stealth attack. This gets around the conditions requirement aspect and makes Sneak Attack more valuable in Core and DE. The idea is to make Sneak Attack a viable part of a power P/P rotation and building for Stealth more normal. Edit (tags): @"Schnuschnu.9857" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binidj.5734 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 I am not a theorycrafter at all, however I can say that I really enjoyed Deadeye at release of PoF and now, post-nerf, it's just kind of ... meh. Where before fights felt dynamic (should I dodge, stealth, or move?) and fluid, now they are really just managing stealth and it feels boring. Sadly I can't see anyone agreeing to revert the profession to its original state so maybe I'll go back to Daredevil, which is a shame because Deadeye was such fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinnel.4369 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 @"Gaile Gray.6029" @"Robert Gee.9246" If the community is truly the subject matter experts I think it's very fair to ask the question of how this content keeps making it live without a preview, beta, or test realm? The chaos of this live beta cycle will inevitably wear on your resources and your communities patience. There just has to be a better way to approach this that is both efficient and cost effective for you and delivers a playable product that approaches relative balance for the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Hide.6345 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"binidj.5734" said: > I am not a theorycrafter at all, however I can say that I really enjoyed Deadeye at release of PoF and now, post-nerf, it's just kind of ... meh. Where before fights felt dynamic (should I dodge, stealth, or move?) and fluid, now they are really just managing stealth and it feels boring. Sadly I can't see anyone agreeing to revert the profession to its original state so maybe I'll go back to Daredevil, which is a shame because Deadeye was such fun. You are late to the party for that one. A lot of people would prefer that it gets changed back to the way it was, but we are also wise enough to know that it won't happen. Once A-net does a rework, it is there to stay for the time being until three years down the line they change it again. Most of us here are just trying to get it to work in a semi decent fashion in order to salvage as much of it as we can. They are currently listening to us to a degree, so people are trying to get as much done and said as possible before they switch back to silent mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcaruss.9567 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Vavume.8065" said: > Remove kneel, it's the most clunky skill in the game. No. If thats the only thing you have to add you're not helping. Kneel makes Deadeye unique compared to the other ranged classes, you take away kneel you get rid of what little semblence of identity it has left after this change to it from the patch. If you don't truely like the Deadeye for what it is and has/had to offer if you don't like kneel. If you have nothing to add that improves the Deadeye with kneel, please don't comment here... such feedback is not needed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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