Consolidated Suggestions for DE Changes

[Ghostt.1293]

I’m not that of a pro to go in specifics

But please don’t build elite specs around mechanics that are optional for the core profession.

Stealth is an assassin thing and is rewarding with the shadow trait line and a few other traits I never pick.

So I suggest to make the rifle way more depending on the steal and mark mechanic than the stealth mechanic

Since we are thief’s and not assassins.

Or give rifle better acces to stealth, but that is not something I want for deadeye.

 

Since you guys are reworking things

Please make the reaper gs epic

[Shade.1650]

ITT(page 4/5):

People acting like P/P is its own specialization.

[Cameryn.5310]

> @"Shade.1650" said:

> ITT(page 4/5):

> People acting like P/P is its own specialization.

 

No, we're just frustrated that the PRIMARY RESOURCE that deadeye builds over time is useless on one of its weapon combos (P/P). There is no shame in pointing that out.

[jenosmaverick.8694]

For me Deadeye must have both rifle and pistols as viable weapons. I mean it's supposedly the gun class so it should maximize both rifles and pistols.

 

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Cameryn.5310" said:

> > @"Shade.1650" said:

> > ITT(page 4/5):

> > People acting like P/P is its own specialization.

>

> No, we're just frustrated that the PRIMARY RESOURCE that deadeye builds over time is useless on one of its weapon combos (P/P). There is no shame in pointing that out.

 

But it not useless. This is just hyperbole. P/P works better then it did before. It only useless to your own playstle because you refuse to adapt and wnat the game designed around your own preferred style just as people want to see Conditions weakned because they do not like taking Condition cleanses.

 

Fact. There are people that use d/d in condition builds. Fact. There are people that use SB in condition builds. Fact Malice is not helping the stealth attack for a Condition build when using either SB or d/d JUST AS malice was of little use to Condition builds prior to changes outside the duration adds of the stolen skills.

 

None of this means there no point in taking DE In condition builds.

 

all weaponsets should not be designed around power builds.

 

If you wish to take advantage of a specline that favors stealth then there will always be weaponsets that are better suited just as occurs with every other weaponset with every other traitline.

 

A staff build does not get much benefit out of the SA line as staff has no innate stealth access. An s/p build does not garner much out of the SA line as s/p has no stealth access. A P/P build has no innate stealth access and does not and did not benefit much form the SA line. There was no demand to give all of these sets stealth just so they could perfrom better in that line. If people wish to have stealth and use the SA line using those sets they have to trait utilities or traits in order to do so.

 

I see NO need to have to add stealth to the p/p weapontset anymore than it must be added to staff sb or s/p. I see no reason that the Stealth Attack out of the p/x set MUST cater to power users and, I am using P/P power with the DE spec and am having NO issues doing so.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Cameryn.5310" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > I have to disagree because P/P needed a rework for a very long time now and it has a stealth problem even before Deadeye. In my opinion, if P/P will get stealth capability, it should be in Core Thief, not in Deadeye.

>

> Just FYI, the opinions about this are germane to the situation at hand, i.e. that we **currently **don't have ANY options for stealth as a P/P deadeye unless we use two cantrips.

>

> I agree with you that stealth should be part of the P/P base weapon set if they want to inflict stealth necessity on us. That would solve much of the issue. Unfortunately, nothing in that base weapon skill set provides it.

 

You do not have to use "two Cantrips" you use one in the Elite spot providing access twice. Alternatively you can go SA and take Hidden thief . If a given weaponset is weak in certain areas then you design your build around that fact.

[MUDse.7623]

i dont use snipers cover as it takes too long to set up and especially is on range a small wall, so opponents can take a little step and shoot around the wall. i think it would be a huge improvement if it was placed like smokescreen right below the thief in the direction he is facing. this will provide for the deadeye kneeling in the wall 360° projectile hate and for his allies behind him. but with the self immobilize from kneel and the rather short wall on range i dont see it as a usefull projectile hate in a pvp situation, sure npcs will still fire right into it.

[Cameryn.5310]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> But it not useless. This is just hyperbole. P/P works better then it did before. It only useless to your own playstle because you refuse to adapt and wnat the game designed around your own preferred style just as people want to see Conditions weakned because they do not like taking Condition cleanses.

 

Okay you really need to chill. "P/P works better than it did before" is your opinion, not a fact. In most every other case with a specific class-based resource there is something tied to that resource's output that is part of the base weapon set, but that is not the case with a P/P deadeye. I don't want the game designed around "my own play style," I want the changes just inflicted upon us -- changes that are by the way VERY unpopular here on this forum -- to make sense. Stop acting like I'm talking out of my own ass, I'm far from alone on this.

[Karnn.4569]

So back to rifle deadeye something that's always bothered me and needs looking at as well ranger longbow with arc has range of 1750 or close in there, and I know people have suggested increasing deadeye range and I agree but there's another problem.

Deadeye must kneel to reach max range which is less than ranger lb with the ranger on the move, another problem is when you kneel to get that range your closer to the ground thus almost everything obstructs you. Its already hard enough to shoot off walls in wvw when standing. one option would be have the animation of the rounds leaving the gun be from the weapon but the actual projectiles be above the player. This way when kneeling you have the clearance of standing the other player can still see the animations just like before and evade the same you just aren't obstructed by every stray tumbleweed This may also help on walls in wvw and such.

 

I do feel since you need to root yourself to reach max range range should exceed lb as lb has no such drawbacks. When one has to root them self to return fire at a ranger beyond your max range with a rifle! and said ranger dumps lb 2 into your face while jogging along there's a problem. As for the stealth, removing the combat req seems like a good start but I still feel making one of the 2 traits below it a kneel to stealth like before would solve alot of peoples problems those who want stealth on dodge take top trait those who want it on kneel like before take the trait below it.

 

Maybe there's a better option F abilities are ok but they are less fluid than trait passives on an action you are already going to take when engaging a target. As it sits I'd move "payback" and replace "burst of shadows" or "one in the chamber" with it then put the old kneel as a trait where it used to be.

 

This I feel would be more fluid and everyone can run a rifle build that suits their play style.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"Cameryn.5310" said:

> > > @"Shade.1650" said:

> > > ITT(page 4/5):

> > > People acting like P/P is its own specialization.

> >

> > No, we're just frustrated that the PRIMARY RESOURCE that deadeye builds over time is useless on one of its weapon combos (P/P). There is no shame in pointing that out.

>

> But it not useless. This is just hyperbole. P/P works better then it did before. It only useless to your own playstle because you refuse to adapt and wnat the game designed around your own preferred style just as people want to see Conditions weakned because they do not like taking Condition cleanses.

>

> Fact. There are people that use d/d in condition builds. Fact. There are people that use SB in condition builds. Fact Malice is not helping the stealth attack for a Condition build when using either SB or d/d JUST AS malice was of little use to Condition builds prior to changes outside the duration adds of the stolen skills.

>

> None of this means there no point in taking DE In condition builds.

>

> all weaponsets should not be designed around power builds.

>

> If you wish to take advantage of a specline that favors stealth then there will always be weaponsets that are better suited just as occurs with every other weaponset with every other traitline.

>

> A staff build does not get much benefit out of the SA line as staff has no innate stealth access. An s/p build does not garner much out of the SA line as s/p has no stealth access. A P/P build has no innate stealth access and does not and did not benefit much form the SA line. There was no demand to give all of these sets stealth just so they could perfrom better in that line. If people wish to have stealth and use the SA line using those sets they have to trait utilities or traits in order to do so.

>

> I see NO need to have to add stealth to the p/p weapontset anymore than it must be added to staff sb or s/p. I see no reason that the Stealth Attack out of the p/x set MUST cater to power users and, I am using P/P power with the DE spec and am having NO issues doing so.

 

You are missing the entire point of DE needing to stealth now for optimal damage. Relying a on a stupid 45 second cd just to stealth is not the way P/P should be accessing stealth. If they truly want us to use stealth, it should be more flawless than wasting slots for stealth skills since it should be built in already which is why people are suggesting the roll for stealth option.

 

Yes, Cameryn did mention something about changing P/P earlier, but right now it seems him/her main focus is just the roll for stealth added for P/P from all that I have read. I am not sure what your tangents main goal was, and if it was to say stealth for roll was not needed because yada yada, I will disagree with you because all your suggestions are small band-aids to a giant sword cut. They will stop it for a little bit, but eventually the person aka P/P will bleed out because it is not the right solution.

 

In order to stop the bleeding fully, P/P does need a rework whether you agree with it or not. There is a reason people for years have been trying to give P/P rework ideas because it doesn't work fully. Adding the stealth roll is one step in a long line to fixing P/P's problems.

[Karnn.4569]

Right now we have an elite spec that needs serious work P/P needs more access to stealth we all get it the horse has been beaten to death and launched out an airlock. Can we focus on The elite spec that needs a rework first then see about adding stealth on roll to P/P later? because if the elite never gets properly reworked we're even farther away from P/P fixes. Commandeering a thread about the rifle primary spec to try to suit the P/P player agenda in the end hurts all theifs who use DE if the basic functions of the elite dont get fixed first. If we can get the stealth on roll working properly to begin with we can later see about adding with dual pistol or rifle to the subtext on the trait. I know alot of P/P players have become tired of waiting but lets get a firm foundation built before we discuss dusty rafters. Lets stick to making base DE a functioning spec then move on to P/P synergies with DE.

 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @"Karnn.4569" said:

> Right now we have an elite spec that needs serious work P/P needs more access to stealth we all get it the horse has been beaten to death and launched out an airlock. Can we focus on The elite spec that needs a rework first then see about adding stealth on roll to P/P later? because if the elite never gets properly reworked we're even farther away from P/P fixes. Commandeering a thread about the rifle primary spec to try to suit the P/P player agenda in the end hurts all theifs who use DE if the basic functions of the elite dont get fixed first. If we can get the stealth on roll working properly to begin with we can later see about adding with dual pistol or rifle to the subtext on the trait. I know alot of P/P players have become tired of waiting but lets get a firm foundation built before we discuss dusty rafters. Lets stick to making base DE a functioning spec then move on to P/P synergies with DE.

>

 

No. Both need to happen at the same time. This is the easiest way to get stealth roll added for P/P while the devs are still listening in on it. We didn't hijack the thread either since this is a DE Rework issue as well. They stated as their rework goals to make it more stealth focused, so we are just showing them some flaws with some weapon sets that run counter to their goals. So this thread changed from rifle to whole DE when Robert and Gaile decided to make it the main thread, and I will not let that opportunity pass to fix P/P while they are listening. No more waiting.

 

If you want to talk about rifle though, talk about rifle. Many conversations can take place at the same time.

[Karnn.4569]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > @"Karnn.4569" said:

> > Right now we have an elite spec that needs serious work P/P needs more access to stealth we all get it the horse has been beaten to death and launched out an airlock. Can we focus on The elite spec that needs a rework first then see about adding stealth on roll to P/P later? because if the elite never gets properly reworked we're even farther away from P/P fixes. Commandeering a thread about the rifle primary spec to try to suit the P/P player agenda in the end hurts all theifs who use DE if the basic functions of the elite dont get fixed first. If we can get the stealth on roll working properly to begin with we can later see about adding with dual pistol or rifle to the subtext on the trait. I know alot of P/P players have become tired of waiting but lets get a firm foundation built before we discuss dusty rafters. Lets stick to making base DE a functioning spec then move on to P/P synergies with DE.

> >

>

> No. Both need to happen at the same time. This is the easiest way to get stealth roll added for P/P while the devs are still listening in on it. We didn't hijack the thread either since this is a DE Rework issue as well. They stated as their rework goals to make it more stealth focused, so we are just showing them some flaws with some weapon sets that run counter to their goals. So this thread changed from rifle to whole DE when Robert and Gaile decided to make it the main thread, and I will not let that opportunity pass to fix P/P while they are listening. No more waiting.

>

> If you want to talk about rifle though, talk about rifle. Many conversations can take place at the same time.

 

That's fine its still secondary to getting the base specialization fixed which should be main priority. The stealth on dodge for pistols has been mentioned already a few times here anything else you'd like to add? If not the recommendation has been made and if they're reading it they've taken it into account, so that said any thing else you'd like to add as a feasible fix to P/P that involves the DE spec should be done after we figure out what the DE spec even is so we can then make those additions.

I get you want all these changes done at the same time but right now were trying to figure out if the thing were trying to put tires on and get rolling is even a car and your worried about the fuzzy dice. If the community cant prioritize you cant blame the devs for ignoring you. P/P has been discussed we have some good ideas, that will help it such as dodge stealth anything else? List them please clean and concise so the devs dont need to read 10000 pages of forum to compile them and lets get to figuring out How to make DE function on its feet. Then those listed P/P changes have a greater possibility of being worked in.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cameryn.5310" said:

> > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > > Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

> > > > > > > > * Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.

> > > > > > > > * Solution: (**WIP Placeholder**) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

> > > > >

> > > > > I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

> > > >

> > > > I personally do not like the idea of using dodge to gain stealth. It works for Daredevil only because it has a lot of ways to gain endurance plus it has a 3rd dodge. With the nerf to Feline Grace, this is not an acceptable way to gain stealth. There are several ways to gain stealth using P/P - you just need to be creative.

> > >

> > > Those ways imply wasting a utility slot for something which should be part of package to begin with. Having it on dodge at least allows the P/P user to access stealth while still having the freedom to pick what skills they want without being forced to take a stealth skill. Using another weapon set is also not the answer since it still goes against the new DE reworks goals. With the way current things are, this is the best option to access stealth without a total P/P rework.

> >

> > I have to disagree because P/P needed a rework for a very long time now and it has a stealth problem even before Deadeye. In my opinion, if P/P will get stealth capability, it should be in Core Thief, not in Deadeye.

>

> The problem with a rework of p/p is what do you rework without affecting p/x abd x/p? You might well end up just robbing Peter to pay Paul and then having to rework Peter. Oooh notice how niceley peter and paul suit p/p? ;)

 

peter/paul, lol

 

I am simply pointing out that the Dev have mentioned that a P/P rework was in progress and I'd rather see what they have cooking before suggesting any more changes. P/P didn't have access to Stealth for a long time now and I'd rather wait a little bit longer. There are other ways to access Stealth without Deadeye using P/P so I rather wait a bit longer for that P/P rework the Dev mentioned.

 

As I've always mentioned here, the Thief's Dual-Wielding mechanic should be treated like a 2-handed weapon skill set. If the Thief uses the same weapon on each hand, all 5 skill set will switch just like equipping 2-h weapon. This way it will not affect P/x and x/P if a stealth skill is given to the P/P set.

 

This Dual-Wield mechanic is not far-fetched at all since all they need to do is apply the same mechanic from skill #3 to all skill slot when the same weapon is equipped in each hand. Also, since Weaver is now using the same dual-wield mechanic, it is time that the Thief will have its own Unique mechanism exclusive for the Thief.

[Karnn.4569]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Cameryn.5310" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > > > Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

> > > > > > > > > * Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.

> > > > > > > > > * Solution: (**WIP Placeholder**) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

> > > > >

> > > > > I personally do not like the idea of using dodge to gain stealth. It works for Daredevil only because it has a lot of ways to gain endurance plus it has a 3rd dodge. With the nerf to Feline Grace, this is not an acceptable way to gain stealth. There are several ways to gain stealth using P/P - you just need to be creative.

> > > >

> > > > Those ways imply wasting a utility slot for something which should be part of package to begin with. Having it on dodge at least allows the P/P user to access stealth while still having the freedom to pick what skills they want without being forced to take a stealth skill. Using another weapon set is also not the answer since it still goes against the new DE reworks goals. With the way current things are, this is the best option to access stealth without a total P/P rework.

> > >

> > > I have to disagree because P/P needed a rework for a very long time now and it has a stealth problem even before Deadeye. In my opinion, if P/P will get stealth capability, it should be in Core Thief, not in Deadeye.

> >

> > The problem with a rework of p/p is what do you rework without affecting p/x abd x/p? You might well end up just robbing Peter to pay Paul and then having to rework Peter. Oooh notice how niceley peter and paul suit p/p? ;)

>

> peter/paul, lol

>

> I am simply pointing out that the Dev have mentioned that a P/P rework was in progress and I'd rather see what they have cooking before suggesting any more changes. P/P didn't have access to Stealth for a long time now and I'd rather wait a little bit longer. There are other ways to access Stealth without Deadeye using P/P so I rather wait a bit longer for that P/P rework the Dev mentioned.

>

> As I've always mentioned here, the Thief's Dual-Wielding mechanic should be treated like a 2-handed weapon skill set. If the Thief uses the same weapon on each hand, all 5 skill set will switch just like equipping 2-h weapon. This way it will not affect P/x and x/P if a stealth skill is given to the P/P set.

>

> This Dual-Wield mechanic is not far-fetched at all since all they need to do is apply the same mechanic from skill #3 to all skill slot when the same weapon is equipped in each hand. Also, since Weaver is now using the same dual-wield mechanic, it is time that the Thief will have its own Unique mechanism exclusive for the Thief.

 

My concern is we rush it all and end up with 2 broken reworks P/P has been on the table and cramming it into the DE rework may cause both to be worse not better. I would like to see the proposed P/P changes from the dev so we could evaluate compatibility with DE and make suggestions until then we dont even know what they are considering yet to weigh in on.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > The only solution to Kneel is making it a stance.

> > Rule #1: Kneel is a toggle. Deadeye will kneel when not moving if active and not kneel when inactive.

> > Rule #2: Auto swap to kneel skills when not moving if Kneel is active.

> > Rule #3: When used with Silent Scope, the Deadeye will go in stealth when they stop moving. Keep the 10s ICD.

> >

> > Very simple and gives the Deadeye the Rifle flexibility it needs. It's really counter-intuitive to require the Thief to stay still when their defense mainly relies on mobility and evasion.

>

> there is no 10s cooldown on silent scope atm or atleast you can remove it, so with your suggestion that would be a nerf. currently you can invest into endurance gain with food, vigor etc so that you can pretty much enter stealth again as soon as revealed debuff is gone. with your suggestion you got to wait 10 secconds.

> on top having to move to not burn that cooldown is pretty weird and when i stop for a TRB i really dont need that stealth, that means i am at a safe spot already.

 

No it won't be a nerf. If you don't what to trigger Silent Scope, don't activate Kneel by toggling it off. You overlooked the Rule #1.

 

> a thieves defense is : mobility, evasion, stealth.

 

Stealth is meaningless without mobility. Stealth is meaningless without evasion. Mobility (e.g. swiftness and shadowstep) and Evasion gives 100% damage reduction. Stealth grants no damage reduction except when using Shadow Arts for a mere 25% reduction. Stealth without Shadow Arts is not a defensive mechanism. Stealth is a mechanic that gives access to Stealth Attacks - that's it.

 

> deadeye focuses on stealth. and you got a lot of stealth especially while kneeling with a rifle. so far stealth is an underused defensive mechanic because aside from avoiding fights it doesnt do much. and in any mode you need to fight. you can evade while still dealing damage, you can use your mobility to kite while dealing damage but if you stealth you pause the fight. on top mobility and evasion when properly used will reduce incoming damage by 100%, while you can still die in stealth.

 

Exactly. That's why stealth is not a defensive mechanism.

 

> stealth on evade was a good thing for deadeye in terms of power, because it is uninterruptable stealth access on very low cooldow (endurance). but it was bad for the sniper feel. i care more about power then sniper feel, so i love it.

>

 

I want to see an uninterruptable stealth, I really do. I like how Hidden Thief works. However, I do not agree that I should be required to sacrifice a dodge to gain stealth. This is not acceptable to me. The stealth on Kneel was perfect.

 

> not sure what your issue with kneel is, but dont touch my stealth access!

>

 

I want the stealth on Kneel back and I want Kneel to be a stance and not a self-inflicting immobilize. Revealed is already a self-inflicted nerf, now we also have self-inflicted immobilize on top of that. That's just too many self-inflicted nerfs.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @"Karnn.4569" said:

> > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > @"Karnn.4569" said:

> > > Right now we have an elite spec that needs serious work P/P needs more access to stealth we all get it the horse has been beaten to death and launched out an airlock. Can we focus on The elite spec that needs a rework first then see about adding stealth on roll to P/P later? because if the elite never gets properly reworked we're even farther away from P/P fixes. Commandeering a thread about the rifle primary spec to try to suit the P/P player agenda in the end hurts all theifs who use DE if the basic functions of the elite dont get fixed first. If we can get the stealth on roll working properly to begin with we can later see about adding with dual pistol or rifle to the subtext on the trait. I know alot of P/P players have become tired of waiting but lets get a firm foundation built before we discuss dusty rafters. Lets stick to making base DE a functioning spec then move on to P/P synergies with DE.

> > >

> >

> > No. Both need to happen at the same time. This is the easiest way to get stealth roll added for P/P while the devs are still listening in on it. We didn't hijack the thread either since this is a DE Rework issue as well. They stated as their rework goals to make it more stealth focused, so we are just showing them some flaws with some weapon sets that run counter to their goals. So this thread changed from rifle to whole DE when Robert and Gaile decided to make it the main thread, and I will not let that opportunity pass to fix P/P while they are listening. No more waiting.

> >

> > If you want to talk about rifle though, talk about rifle. Many conversations can take place at the same time.

>

> That's fine its still secondary to getting the base specialization fixed which should be main priority. The stealth on dodge for pistols has been mentioned already a few times here anything else you'd like to add? If not the recommendation has been made and if they're reading it they've taken it into account, so that said any thing else you'd like to add as a feasible fix to P/P that involves the DE spec should be done after we figure out what the DE spec even is so we can then make those additions.

> I get you want all these changes done at the same time but right now were trying to figure out if the thing were trying to put tires on and get rolling is even a car and your worried about the fuzzy dice. If the community cant prioritize you cant blame the devs for ignoring you. P/P has been discussed we have some good ideas, that will help it such as dodge stealth anything else? List them please clean and concise so the devs dont need to read 10000 pages of forum to compile them and lets get to figuring out How to make DE function on its feet. Then those listed P/P changes have a greater possibility of being worked in.

 

I disagree with it being secondary since it is part of the base specialization which as you say is the main priority. Again I disagree with your reasoning that since it was already mentioned, anything else about it should be ignored. There is nothing wrong with bringing it up when people try to fight against the idea of it. I am not that way. I will argue and fight something until my dying breath in some cases. I don't go down silently.

 

Most of us realize that the rework DE put down is here to stay, so in essence the car is already here and fully built whether we want it or not. The whole rifle and P/P thing is whether what kind of tires we want on it and not the fuzzy dice. We are prioritizing what we want, so I don't know what you are on about. The list has been made basically with how it should be done, and how to make DE function on its feet and P/P changes are the same thing. You are the one who is making it separate and causing the big raucous about it.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> peter/paul, lol

>

> I am simply pointing out that the Dev have mentioned that a P/P rework was in progress and I'd rather see what they have cooking before suggesting any more changes. P/P didn't have access to Stealth for a long time now and I'd rather wait a little bit longer. There are other ways to access Stealth without Deadeye using P/P so I rather wait a bit longer for that P/P rework the Dev mentioned.

>

> As I've always mentioned here, the Thief's Dual-Wielding mechanic should be treated like a 2-handed weapon skill set. If the Thief uses the same weapon on each hand, all 5 skill set will switch just like equipping 2-h weapon. This way it will not affect P/x and x/P if a stealth skill is given to the P/P set.

>

> This Dual-Wield mechanic is not far-fetched at all since all they need to do is apply the same mechanic from skill #3 to all skill slot when the same weapon is equipped in each hand. Also, since Weaver is now using the same dual-wield mechanic, it is time that the Thief will have its own Unique mechanism exclusive for the Thief.

 

Where was it mentioned that P/P rework was in progress? If you can find something relevant(something this year), I will drop my case. If it's not this year though, I don't consider it good enough since it should have been done already.

 

Like I said earlier, I agree with that reasoning and change for the new P/P change if it ever happens.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cameryn.5310" said:

> > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > > Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

> > > > > > > > * Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.

> > > > > > > > * Solution: (**WIP Placeholder**) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

> > > > >

> > > > > I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

> > > >

> > > > I personally do not like the idea of using dodge to gain stealth. It works for Daredevil only because it has a lot of ways to gain endurance plus it has a 3rd dodge. With the nerf to Feline Grace, this is not an acceptable way to gain stealth. There are several ways to gain stealth using P/P - you just need to be creative.

> > >

> > > Those ways imply wasting a utility slot for something which should be part of package to begin with. Having it on dodge at least allows the P/P user to access stealth while still having the freedom to pick what skills they want without being forced to take a stealth skill. Using another weapon set is also not the answer since it still goes against the new DE reworks goals. With the way current things are, this is the best option to access stealth without a total P/P rework.

> >

> > I have to disagree because P/P needed a rework for a very long time now and it has a stealth problem even before Deadeye. In my opinion, if P/P will get stealth capability, it should be in Core Thief, not in Deadeye.

>

> I am not disagreeing with you on P/P needing a rework because I think so too. What many others are proposing though is a stop gap measure until a full rework can be available. I will not wait months and months for them to them to do a total rework while P/P suffers in the mean time. I would rather have them add it to the roll and work a rework for P/P instead. Two birds one stone.

 

P/P has been suffering for a very long time before they even buffed Unload. P/P has seen a lot of massive nerfs in the past and still not being able to use its Stealth attack without utility or trait. My other issue is that if they are going to make a fix that it should be in the Core Thief, not buried in Deadeye spec. P/P is not a Deadeye weapon set.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > The only solution to Kneel is making it a stance.

> > > Rule #1: Kneel is a toggle. Deadeye will kneel when not moving if active and not kneel when inactive.

> > > Rule #2: Auto swap to kneel skills when not moving if Kneel is active.

> > > Rule #3: When used with Silent Scope, the Deadeye will go in stealth when they stop moving. Keep the 10s ICD.

> > >

> > > Very simple and gives the Deadeye the Rifle flexibility it needs. It's really counter-intuitive to require the Thief to stay still when their defense mainly relies on mobility and evasion.

> >

> > there is no 10s cooldown on silent scope atm or atleast you can remove it, so with your suggestion that would be a nerf. currently you can invest into endurance gain with food, vigor etc so that you can pretty much enter stealth again as soon as revealed debuff is gone. with your suggestion you got to wait 10 secconds.

> > on top having to move to not burn that cooldown is pretty weird and when i stop for a TRB i really dont need that stealth, that means i am at a safe spot already.

>

> No it won't be a nerf. If you don't what to trigger Silent Scope, don't activate Kneel by toggling it off. You overlooked the Rule #1.

>

and how am i to use TRB without triggering silent scope , because i want to kneel and dont need stealth?

> > a thieves defense is : mobility, evasion, stealth.

>

> Stealth is meaningless without mobility. Stealth is meaningless without evasion. Mobility (e.g. swiftness and shadowstep) and Evasion gives 100% damage reduction. Stealth grants no damage reduction except when using Shadow Arts for a mere 25% reduction. Stealth without Shadow Arts is not a defensive mechanism. Stealth is a mechanic that gives access to Stealth Attacks - that's it.

>

and it breaks target, the target break aspect is allways defensive. but indeed it is inferior to mobility/evasion in 1 on 1 combat. but superior in group fights as it will shift the attention away from you.

> > deadeye focuses on stealth. and you got a lot of stealth especially while kneeling with a rifle. so far stealth is an underused defensive mechanic because aside from avoiding fights it doesnt do much. and in any mode you need to fight. you can evade while still dealing damage, you can use your mobility to kite while dealing damage but if you stealth you pause the fight. on top mobility and evasion when properly used will reduce incoming damage by 100%, while you can still die in stealth.

>

> Exactly. That's why stealth is not a defensive mechanism.

>

again it is a target break and lets you reposition to regain your range advantage.

> > stealth on evade was a good thing for deadeye in terms of power, because it is uninterruptable stealth access on very low cooldow (endurance). but it was bad for the sniper feel. i care more about power then sniper feel, so i love it.

> >

>

> I want to see an uninterruptable stealth, I really do. I like how Hidden Thief works. However, I do not agree that I should be required to sacrifice a dodge to gain stealth. This is not acceptable to me. The stealth on Kneel was perfect.

>

hidden thief is only uninterruptable for core/daredevil, because mark has a cast time.

stealth needs a cost or has to be overrestricted by cooldowns. endurance is a resource you dont need as much as rifle thief unless someone is right in your face then you need to evade and reposition so the stealth on evade is well placed here. i mean with old deadeye i was able to roam with wrong mouse profile so no dodge without realizing it for 5+ hours, thats how much Deadeye needed evades if he used stealth and positioning properly.

> > not sure what your issue with kneel is, but dont touch my stealth access!

> >

>

> I want the stealth on Kneel back and I want Kneel to be a stance and not a self-inflicting immobilize. Revealed is already a self-inflicted nerf, now we also have self-inflicted immobilize on top of that. That's just too many self-inflicted nerfs.

if you give me a 10 sec cooldown on the stealth that is a nerf, a huge one to stealth potential of the deadeye. we got higher stealth uptime on rifle now as endurance gains can be buffed, i dont need more endurance. threfor i dont want to give up alot of stealth because you need evades. yes selfrevealeing is an issue with DJ as it is a stealth attack, but thats no reason to further limit stealth access.

 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Cameryn.5310" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > > > Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

> > > > > > > > > * Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.

> > > > > > > > > * Solution: (**WIP Placeholder**) Rebalance the set by making Unload’s damage scale up based on how much torment a target has. Reduce unload’s base damage to compensate.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Saerni, the other thing that has been proposed as a fix for this in multiple threads here is to modify Silent Scope to also grant stealth when dodging using P/P in the same way that rifle does, perhaps after a successful Unload... that would regularly allow the P/P deadeye to take advantage of Malicious Sneak Attack. Even a one second stealth boon dodging with P/P would allow us the option to apply the torment. The difficulty with the possible solution you propose above without this necessary step using dodge stealth is that would still pigeonhole P/P deadeyes into two cantrips that grant stealth (since there is no other stealth access as you mention), which removes player choice in utility and elite skills.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I’d like to debate the stealth access issue a little more before I add anything to the OP. There is something ironic about Daredevil providing better stealth for P/P through leap dodges than Deadeye does—given the latter is a stealth specialist—and is intended to expend Malice through stealth attacks.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The main issue I have with this as a solution is that it makes a rifle+ trait boost another weapon (unlike other weapon+ traits). This is out of line with the rest of the game’s design for weapon specific traits. This makes it more overloaded as a trait than I feel the developers are comfortable with generally.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Another issue is that Kneel resets the internal cooldown of this ability. If P/P triggers stealth on dodge it still has no way to reset the cooldown. So even if it gets this trait it won’t benefit enough that it won’t still need to take stealth traits/cantrips/utilities.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A general use trait that adds stealth on dodge for all weapons might work if the rifle 20% crit was made a function of Kneel regardless of taking the trait. That might require taking the crit % bonus down given this would be now available without taking a trait for the advantage. I’d move the cooldown reset to Stealth Attacks (no more awkward dodge-kneel-dodge).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would be down for that suggestion of yours. Plus, they want DE to be stealth focused right, so allowing all weapons to benefit from the roll would allow ease of access to the Sneak Attacks. I would buff the actual crit chance of all rifle skills then to compensate for the loss of crit from the skill making it still good for the rifle to kneel down.

> > > > >

> > > > > I personally do not like the idea of using dodge to gain stealth. It works for Daredevil only because it has a lot of ways to gain endurance plus it has a 3rd dodge. With the nerf to Feline Grace, this is not an acceptable way to gain stealth. There are several ways to gain stealth using P/P - you just need to be creative.

> > > >

> > > > Those ways imply wasting a utility slot for something which should be part of package to begin with. Having it on dodge at least allows the P/P user to access stealth while still having the freedom to pick what skills they want without being forced to take a stealth skill. Using another weapon set is also not the answer since it still goes against the new DE reworks goals. With the way current things are, this is the best option to access stealth without a total P/P rework.

> > >

> > > I have to disagree because P/P needed a rework for a very long time now and it has a stealth problem even before Deadeye. In my opinion, if P/P will get stealth capability, it should be in Core Thief, not in Deadeye.

> >

> > I am not disagreeing with you on P/P needing a rework because I think so too. What many others are proposing though is a stop gap measure until a full rework can be available. I will not wait months and months for them to them to do a total rework while P/P suffers in the mean time. I would rather have them add it to the roll and work a rework for P/P instead. Two birds one stone.

>

> P/P has been suffering for a very long time before they even buffed Unload. P/P has seen a lot of massive nerfs in the past and still not being able to use its Stealth attack without utility or trait. My other issue is that if they are going to make a fix that it should be in the Core Thief, not buried in Deadeye spec. P/P is not a Deadeye weapon set.

 

I know it has which is why I have no patience left for them to fix it, and why I want them to do it now instead of later. I am at my wits end with it. I don't care about the consequences if they add it in for DE. I just want something done about it.

[Karnn.4569]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > @"Karnn.4569" said:

> > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > > @"Karnn.4569" said:

> > > > Right now we have an elite spec that needs serious work P/P needs more access to stealth we all get it the horse has been beaten to death and launched out an airlock. Can we focus on The elite spec that needs a rework first then see about adding stealth on roll to P/P later? because if the elite never gets properly reworked we're even farther away from P/P fixes. Commandeering a thread about the rifle primary spec to try to suit the P/P player agenda in the end hurts all theifs who use DE if the basic functions of the elite dont get fixed first. If we can get the stealth on roll working properly to begin with we can later see about adding with dual pistol or rifle to the subtext on the trait. I know alot of P/P players have become tired of waiting but lets get a firm foundation built before we discuss dusty rafters. Lets stick to making base DE a functioning spec then move on to P/P synergies with DE.

> > > >

> > >

> > > No. Both need to happen at the same time. This is the easiest way to get stealth roll added for P/P while the devs are still listening in on it. We didn't hijack the thread either since this is a DE Rework issue as well. They stated as their rework goals to make it more stealth focused, so we are just showing them some flaws with some weapon sets that run counter to their goals. So this thread changed from rifle to whole DE when Robert and Gaile decided to make it the main thread, and I will not let that opportunity pass to fix P/P while they are listening. No more waiting.

> > >

> > > If you want to talk about rifle though, talk about rifle. Many conversations can take place at the same time.

> >

> > That's fine its still secondary to getting the base specialization fixed which should be main priority. The stealth on dodge for pistols has been mentioned already a few times here anything else you'd like to add? If not the recommendation has been made and if they're reading it they've taken it into account, so that said any thing else you'd like to add as a feasible fix to P/P that involves the DE spec should be done after we figure out what the DE spec even is so we can then make those additions.

> > I get you want all these changes done at the same time but right now were trying to figure out if the thing were trying to put tires on and get rolling is even a car and your worried about the fuzzy dice. If the community cant prioritize you cant blame the devs for ignoring you. P/P has been discussed we have some good ideas, that will help it such as dodge stealth anything else? List them please clean and concise so the devs dont need to read 10000 pages of forum to compile them and lets get to figuring out How to make DE function on its feet. Then those listed P/P changes have a greater possibility of being worked in.

>

> I disagree with it being secondary since it is part of the base specialization which as you say is the main priority. Again I disagree with your reasoning that since it was already mentioned, anything else about it should be ignored. There is nothing wrong with bringing it up when people try to fight against the idea of it. I am not that way. I will argue and fight something until my dying breath in some cases. I don't go down silently.

>

> Most of us realize that the rework DE put down is here to stay, so in essence the car is already here and fully built whether we want it or not. The whole rifle and P/P thing is whether what kind of tires we want on it and not the fuzzy dice. We are prioritizing what we want, so I don't know what you are on about. The list has been made basically with how it should be done, and how to make DE function on its feet and P/P changes are the same thing. You are the one who is making it separate and causing the big raucous about it.

 

You dont take much time to read what is written do you? I said

 

>The stealth on dodge for pistols has been mentioned already a few times here anything else you'd like to add?

>P/P has been discussed we have some good ideas, that will help it such as dodge stealth anything else? List them please clean and concise so the devs dont need to read 10000 pages of forum to compile them and lets get to figuring out How to make DE function on its feet.

 

You say

>The list has been made basically with how it should be done, and how to make DE function on its feet and P/P changes are the same thing. You are the one who is making it separate and causing the big raucous about it.

 

We are here to discuss that right now so the second DE adjustment list is in the making right now and again I will ask you to please post a concise list of optional P/P changes as that has been discussed far longer than DE has even existed so we can see how to work them in.

 

you say

>Most of us realize that the rework DE put down is here to stay, so in essence the car is already here and fully built whether we want it or not.

 

Were discussing changes to that rework right now so its not here to stay in its current iteration is it? There fore Were back to figuring out the cars mechanics aren't we?

 

you say

> I disagree with it being secondary since it is part of the base specialization which as you say is the main priority.

 

Is there one DE trait that's exclusive to pistols I missed? And when the base specialization is what needs to work well to begin with, before adding how it combines with other theif weapon sets yes P/P is secondary. I run P/P alot I like it, It needs a rework the car analogy was about the order of things that need to be sorted to achieve the best outcome.

 

you say

>Again I disagree with your reasoning that since it was already mentioned, anything else about it should be ignored. There is nothing wrong with bringing it up when people try to fight against the idea of it. I am not that way. I will argue and fight something until my dying breath in some cases. I don't go down silently.

 

Proving you didn't fully read or understand my post and the fact you go on a tangent about arguing to your dying breath shows since your not willing to bother reading posts and simply are a salty P/P player, unwilling to help himself with compiling a list from the other P/P threads so we can see how to possibly add them in. We can move on to more productive contributors.

 

Now that's out of the way I do like the out of combat dodge to stealth but it still bothers me the stealth is tied to endurance limiting my use of it if I simply want to dodge not stealth that however is why earlier today I mentioned the alternate trait options. I see stealth dodge being useful with some builds and do feel it should apply to P/P I'm also interested in Vincent's idea of using a stance instead of a actual immobilize. This would allow you to stand and may solve some of the issues I described in my post this morning.

 

 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @"Karnn.4569" said:

> > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > @"Karnn.4569" said:

> > > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > > > @"Karnn.4569" said:

> > > > > Right now we have an elite spec that needs serious work P/P needs more access to stealth we all get it the horse has been beaten to death and launched out an airlock. Can we focus on The elite spec that needs a rework first then see about adding stealth on roll to P/P later? because if the elite never gets properly reworked we're even farther away from P/P fixes. Commandeering a thread about the rifle primary spec to try to suit the P/P player agenda in the end hurts all theifs who use DE if the basic functions of the elite dont get fixed first. If we can get the stealth on roll working properly to begin with we can later see about adding with dual pistol or rifle to the subtext on the trait. I know alot of P/P players have become tired of waiting but lets get a firm foundation built before we discuss dusty rafters. Lets stick to making base DE a functioning spec then move on to P/P synergies with DE.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > No. Both need to happen at the same time. This is the easiest way to get stealth roll added for P/P while the devs are still listening in on it. We didn't hijack the thread either since this is a DE Rework issue as well. They stated as their rework goals to make it more stealth focused, so we are just showing them some flaws with some weapon sets that run counter to their goals. So this thread changed from rifle to whole DE when Robert and Gaile decided to make it the main thread, and I will not let that opportunity pass to fix P/P while they are listening. No more waiting.

> > > >

> > > > If you want to talk about rifle though, talk about rifle. Many conversations can take place at the same time.

> > >

> > > That's fine its still secondary to getting the base specialization fixed which should be main priority. The stealth on dodge for pistols has been mentioned already a few times here anything else you'd like to add? If not the recommendation has been made and if they're reading it they've taken it into account, so that said any thing else you'd like to add as a feasible fix to P/P that involves the DE spec should be done after we figure out what the DE spec even is so we can then make those additions.

> > > I get you want all these changes done at the same time but right now were trying to figure out if the thing were trying to put tires on and get rolling is even a car and your worried about the fuzzy dice. If the community cant prioritize you cant blame the devs for ignoring you. P/P has been discussed we have some good ideas, that will help it such as dodge stealth anything else? List them please clean and concise so the devs dont need to read 10000 pages of forum to compile them and lets get to figuring out How to make DE function on its feet. Then those listed P/P changes have a greater possibility of being worked in.

> >

> > I disagree with it being secondary since it is part of the base specialization which as you say is the main priority. Again I disagree with your reasoning that since it was already mentioned, anything else about it should be ignored. There is nothing wrong with bringing it up when people try to fight against the idea of it. I am not that way. I will argue and fight something until my dying breath in some cases. I don't go down silently.

> >

> > Most of us realize that the rework DE put down is here to stay, so in essence the car is already here and fully built whether we want it or not. The whole rifle and P/P thing is whether what kind of tires we want on it and not the fuzzy dice. We are prioritizing what we want, so I don't know what you are on about. The list has been made basically with how it should be done, and how to make DE function on its feet and P/P changes are the same thing. You are the one who is making it separate and causing the big raucous about it.

 

 

 

 

First things first, I did read it and understand it perfectly, so I am going to break it down like you did.

 

> We are here to discuss that right now so the second DE adjustment list is in the making right now and again I will ask you to please post a concise list of optional P/P changes as that has been discussed far longer than DE has even existed so we can see how to work them in.

 

Like I mentioned, the list is already basically made. I never said I would make it. In some other thread, the same solutions were also mentioned. If someone wants to take up another thread that will get close down because it's not in this one with the list, they can go right ahead and do it. I also don't want to take this thread to far into the P/P changes because it's mostly about the DE which is why I recommended changing the trait for DE instead of the whole P/P in detail.

 

> Were discussing changes to that rework right now so its not here to stay in its current iteration is it? There fore Were back to figuring out the cars mechanics aren't we?

 

We already know they want DE to be Stealth focused, so the mechanics are already set. All that remains is tweaking the breaks and such to make it work. Don't be a naive fool in thinking they will change their mind and go a total opposite direction. I give you more credit than that.

 

> Is there one DE trait that's exclusive to pistols I missed? And when the base specialization is what needs to work well to begin with, before adding how it combines with other theif weapon sets yes P/P is secondary. I run P/P alot I like it, It needs a rework the car analogy was about the order of things that need to be sorted to achieve the best outcome.

 

Again, you are wrong. From their wording they want all weapons to utilize the new sneak attack skills, so saying P/P not fulfilling that option makes it a main issue a long with the other weapons that lack it. You are not going to convince me otherwise. Your way of them setting DE first and P/P second is not a guaranteed outcome and a gamble. I would rather take the opportunity now to do something about it instead of the gamble they will leave P/P in the gutter again like they have since it's second rework.

 

> Proving you didn't fully read or understand my post and the fact you go on a tangent about arguing to your dying breath shows since your not willing to bother reading posts and simply are a salty P/P player, unwilling to help himself with compiling a list from the other P/P threads so we can see how to possibly add them in. We can move on to more productive contributors.

 

Again, you are wrong. I fully understood what you were saying. The dying breath bit was to show you won't win this with me until actual facts and not opinions are brought in because right now it is two opinions fighting each other. If that post on they are working on P/P and it will be released soon is found, I will drop my case because that is a fact I can't dispute. I am compiling a list in my own way. It just doesn't align with how you see it. Yes, you are right I am salty. I have been beyond salty and more wrathful on this matter for a long time because I am sick of nothing being done about it. Your way isn't the only way to get things done.

 

> Now that's out of the way I do like the out of combat dodge to stealth but it still bothers me the stealth is tied to endurance limiting my use of it if I simply want to dodge not stealth that however is why earlier today I mentioned the alternate trait options. I see stealth dodge being useful with some builds and do feel it should apply to P/P I'm also interested in Vincent's idea of using a stance instead of a actual immobilize. This would allow you to stand and may solve some of the issues I described in my post this morning.

 

If you agree with it, why did you start that whole tangent earlier then on stop mentioning it? The more it is said; the better chance of listening from the devs. It doesn't always need to be a list also. Discussions work just as well.

 

Edit: Apologies on having to remove your post, it was super long with my responses as well, so I had to condense it.

 

 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

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~

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

can i say that having to ramp up malice by JUST dealing damage is a bit bull...its like they want us to play like rifle engi / rifle war then SPIKE when we have max malice...thats not very DEADEYE...i just want cursed bullet back ffs.

 

What other games are worth playing until 2 years when they finally understand how to do a correct patch based on feedback

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:

> can i say that having to ramp up malice by JUST dealing damage is a bit bull...its like they want us to play like rifle engi / rifle war then SPIKE when we have max malice...thats not very DEADEYE...i just want cursed bullet back kitten.

>

> What other games are worth playing until 2 years when they finally understand how to do a correct patch based on feedback

 

No games if you want something even close to GW2. Most of the games out there are grindy as heck and P2W. GW2 is one of the last safe havens for good MMOs.