Balance the scourge now, not when next expansion comes

[Sovereign.1093]

scourge team works as melee train. counter by 1. pin snipe

2. counter bomb (counters all)

3. old school dd to back and bomb

4. acs (scourges are light armor)

5. rev cor phasesmash (multiple - if coordinated with sb and ele and other range, very good.

6. harasment group engies mes rangers

 

cons to stratrgy

 

anet has not fixed ping issue.

 

if enemy is no. 3 and 2

 

but only met such group in bg and jadesea.

[morrolan.9608]

> @"Meetshield.1756" said:

> I would prefer scourge be pure support honestly.

 

I don't see why it shouldn't be, scrapper has been relegated to pure support for instance. If you want to play damage necro play another spec.

[Ganathar.4956]

Scourge will probably be getting a huge nerfbat soon. A scourge just soloed Vale Guardian, and we all know how quick Anet is to fix a broken spec if they can solo raids.

[TheBandit.7031]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> Scourge will probably be getting a huge nerfbat soon. A scourge just soloed Vale Guardian, and we all know how quick Anet is to fix a broken spec if they can solo raids.

>

 

It took him 4 and a half hours... that is not something to be worried about. No sane person is going to do that regularly.

 

I have been fighting a lot of scourges in WvW and they are really annoying but not overpowered. It really isn't difficult to avoid the shades. And I'm saying this as someone who fights Maguuma which is like 90% scourges. There are much worse classes to fight than a Scourge.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

>

> Each scourge you add to a group it in turns support 10 targets and hit 10 targets. It is THE blob jobs and makes groups stronger the bigger. Its every thing ppl hate in wvw right now and it is op and far worst then the boon meta.

 

Kinda this. I've been 'ganked by a lone scourge while solo roaming, and it wasn't any worse than being attacked by a Mesmer or Warrior.

 

In a Zerg vs. Zerg fight, it's pretty difficulty to get everyone to target a specific person, even if the commander is using the target-icon. So if a Zerg of 40 Rangers came at my zerg, , the chances that all 40, or 20, or even 5 would train me specifically are pretty slim. But that changes when AoE is your main attack. The way to avoid an AoE is to just move out of the ouch, but that's pretty tricky when the ouch covers the entire landscape.

 

To misquote 300: We all die in the shade.

 

 

[Threather.9354]

Condi scourge is fine because other classes are completely fine against it.

- Chrono counters is with CC (focus pulled before fight? Rip 2 scourges and scourge stacking strats)

- Firebrand counters it with resi fields/cleanse. Not a single good firebrand that will die in first 20 seconds, neither should their party members

- Ele and rev counter it with range + dwarf elite.

- Staff thief counters it with whatever staff 5 spam strats are going around

- Holosmith counters it with AoE cleanse and CC

- Only class that has problems is the typical berserker spellbreaker meta build that can't yolo around cuz scourges can just spam buttons. That is why I recommend ShoutBreaker that counters scourge as well (outgoing cleanse twice as much as firebrand).

 

Now if you would want to log in and smile whenever you see enemy stack scourges, you would just log in as Firebrand, ShoutBreaker, Chrono or Holo. After that you will have no problem with them. Even if they come near you, you can pretty much just move away.

 

I played power scourge way before guilds started playing it and it was okay, I don't think its insanely broken, its like better core necro with some support and constant DPS. I liked it more than the condi version though because power damage is better to control and the conditions are pretty much still there to annoy enemy.

 

Only reason scourge is even remotely good is because Spellbreaker elite bubble allows them to fearlock people in it, you can do the same coordination with other classes CC but scourges pretty much just spam buttons and not target to fear so it happens naturally.

 

*If scourge would get nerfed, it would just mean that shout reaper would come back and people would just spam nothing can save you + axe 3 so melee classes would have more troubles*

 

I think people who QQ about scourge play scourge themselves and die to conditions. Learn to staff 4 or stick with the firebrand.

[Dralor.3701]

If anyone dies to conditions it is 100% L2P issue. Stay near your support and condition damage is laughable, heaven forbid you might have to slot 1 condi clear for an emergency.

 

Trailblazer or any other full condi scourge is garbage compared to hybrid.

[morrolan.9608]

> @"TheBandit.7031" said:

> > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > Scourge will probably be getting a huge nerfbat soon. A scourge just soloed Vale Guardian, and we all know how quick Anet is to fix a broken spec if they can solo raids.

> >

>

> It took him 4 and a half hours... that is not something to be worried about. No sane person is going to do that regularly.

 

IIRC it took a perma evade daredevil hours as well yet it was nerfed directly as a result.

 

> @"TheBandit.7031" said:

> I have been fighting a lot of scourges in WvW and they are really annoying but not overpowered. It really isn't difficult to avoid the shades. And I'm saying this as someone who fights Maguuma which is like 90% scourges. There are much worse classes to fight than a Scourge.

 

Once again the issue is not 1v1, the issue is with large groups.

 

 

[FASTCAR.7831]

I have NP with scourges at all. Think they are fine

[TheBandit.7031]

> @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > @"TheBandit.7031" said:

> > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > Scourge will probably be getting a huge nerfbat soon. A scourge just soloed Vale Guardian, and we all know how quick Anet is to fix a broken spec if they can solo raids.

> > >

> >

> > It took him 4 and a half hours... that is not something to be worried about. No sane person is going to do that regularly.

>

> IIRC it took a perma evade daredevil hours as well yet it was nerfed directly as a result.

>

> > @"TheBandit.7031" said:

> > I have been fighting a lot of scourges in WvW and they are really annoying but not overpowered. It really isn't difficult to avoid the shades. And I'm saying this as someone who fights Maguuma which is like 90% scourges. There are much worse classes to fight than a Scourge.

>

> Once again the issue is not 1v1, the issue is with large groups.

>

>

 

I'm talking about group not 1v1. Pushing through chokes with a lot of scourges is a pain but out in the open it's very easy to dodge out of the shades. The problem is that a lot of pugs do not avoid the shades so scourges become very good at killing uncoordinated players.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"FASTCAR.7831" said:

> I have NP with scourges at all. Think they are fine

 

IMO the issue with scourges is the gameplay it self, stack more scourges due their defensive offensive design and keep spamming :\, wich resulted in pirate ships 3.0 steroids versions, scourge actually forced me to play a way i actually hate, powercreep momentum spamer at range...

 

Gw2 was already overburden with aoe spam gameplay, scourge worsen the situation, newbs and badies need to care less whom to hit they need to spam zones rather know how to actually play.

Sadly Gw2 is reuniting all the unskilled elements u can make into a game... tons of access to aoe, powercreep momemtum, eforcing gimmick gameplay and player behavior, bad balance overall.

 

Sadly all games are becoming made for idiots and stupid people... played GT6... even with all the helps disabled i looked like a dammn good driver(im not lol).

[Jski.6180]

> @"Dralor.3701" said:

> If anyone dies to conditions it is 100% L2P issue. Stay near your support and condition damage is laughable, heaven forbid you might have to slot 1 condi clear for an emergency.

>

> Trailblazer or any other full condi scourge is garbage compared to hybrid.

 

L2P scorge you mean. As scorge is both a condi dmg / power dmg class spaming all the condis AND it is the counter to such condi spam though barriers (a tool that even condi dmg cant counter like it can counter healing effects) and mass condi clear 10 targets.

 

Scorge problem is the numbers of targets and how it makes blobs in wvw worst.

[Dralor.3701]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > If anyone dies to conditions it is 100% L2P issue. Stay near your support and condition damage is laughable, heaven forbid you might have to slot 1 condi clear for an emergency.

> >

> > Trailblazer or any other full condi scourge is garbage compared to hybrid.

>

> L2P scorge you mean. As scorge is both a condi dmg / power dmg class spaming all the condis AND it is the counter to such condi spam though barriers (a tool that even condi dmg cant counter like it can counter healing effects) and mass condi clear 10 targets.

>

> Scorge problem is the numbers of targets and how it makes blobs in wvw worst.

 

I play a number of different classes and I never die to condi, again if you are too lazy to slot condi clears you only have yourself to blame. Condi while complained about is and has been largely garbage in a competitive environment.

 

Reduce targets from 10 to 5 w/e who cares, bads still going to stand in the red circles and die.

[Malediktus.9250]

Scourge and Firebrand are the worst that ever happened to WvW

[Rezzet.3614]

> @"Threather.9354" said:

> Condi scourge is fine because other classes are completely fine against it.

> - Chrono counters is with CC (focus pulled before fight? Rip 2 scourges and scourge stacking strats)

> - Firebrand counters it with resi fields/cleanse. Not a single good firebrand that will die in first 20 seconds, neither should their party members

> - Ele and rev counter it with range + dwarf elite.

> - Staff thief counters it with whatever staff 5 spam strats are going around

> - Holosmith counters it with AoE cleanse and CC

> - Only class that has problems is the typical berserker spellbreaker meta build that can't yolo around cuz scourges can just spam buttons. That is why I recommend ShoutBreaker that counters scourge as well (outgoing cleanse twice as much as firebrand).

>

> Now if you would want to log in and smile whenever you see enemy stack scourges, you would just log in as Firebrand, ShoutBreaker, Chrono or Holo. After that you will have no problem with them. Even if they come near you, you can pretty much just move away.

>

> I played power scourge way before guilds started playing it and it was okay, I don't think its insanely broken, its like better core necro with some support and constant DPS. I liked it more than the condi version though because power damage is better to control and the conditions are pretty much still there to annoy enemy.

>

> Only reason scourge is even remotely good is because Spellbreaker elite bubble allows them to fearlock people in it, you can do the same coordination with other classes CC but scourges pretty much just spam buttons and not target to fear so it happens naturally.

>

> *If scourge would get nerfed, it would just mean that shout reaper would come back and people would just spam nothing can save you + axe 3 so melee classes would have more troubles*

>

> I think people who QQ about scourge play scourge themselves and die to conditions. Learn to staff 4 or stick with the firebrand.

 

you forget this is a WvW thread, no one is complaining about scourge 1 v 1 fights

 

the problem is in groups scourge trains are unstoppable they counter everything and have no counterplay its gotten to such levels i have seen 6 whole guilds running scourge only blobs with a handful firebrands

 

the main issues with scourge is access to mobile 300 radius aoe+ extra 900 range 300 radius aoe via sand shades

10 target limit

Ranged non projectile AoE spam (ignores shields and anti projectile fields

 

then they have

hybrid damage , a scourge can build for power and land several 8k damage bursts and leave no room for healing because of condi spam

 

Condition/corruption spam wich flat out shuts down melee enemies

 

and before ranged combat is mentioned necomancers have an 8s anti projectile aoe too, wich leaves options to fight back against scourge trains to be Scourge, Hammer Revenant,GS Mesmer, staff ele,firebrand

[Zefrost.3425]

> @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > > If anyone dies to conditions it is 100% L2P issue. Stay near your support and condition damage is laughable, heaven forbid you might have to slot 1 condi clear for an emergency.

> > >

> > > Trailblazer or any other full condi scourge is garbage compared to hybrid.

> >

> > L2P scorge you mean. As scorge is both a condi dmg / power dmg class spaming all the condis AND it is the counter to such condi spam though barriers (a tool that even condi dmg cant counter like it can counter healing effects) and mass condi clear 10 targets.

> >

> > Scorge problem is the numbers of targets and how it makes blobs in wvw worst.

>

> I play a number of different classes and I never die to condi, again if you are too lazy to slot condi clears you only have yourself to blame. Condi while complained about is and has been largely garbage in a competitive environment.

>

> Reduce targets from 10 to 5 w/e who cares, bads still going to stand in the red circles and die.

 

A scrapper traited into inventions and alchemy (not using condi to boon conversion trait) using HGH fox shorter cooldown on condition clear elixirs (elixir gun #5 and auto conversion trait) with gyro heal (2 condi clear) with protection field (5 condi clear) with supply crate med kits (cures all condis) with sigil of generosity (1 condi clear) with sigil of cleansing (1 condi clear) with runes of durability (1 condi clear every 20s with 1s resistance) with protection injection (1 condi clear when CC'd) with elixir gun #5 (1 condi clear + another 1 condi clear with blast) is not enough to deal with a scourge. If you equip purge gyro and elixir C.... THEN... you might be able to survive. But you won't kill the scourge.

 

In a 1v1 enviroment, you would probably need to run holosmith in full glass and just destroy the scourge. However, this is not a 1v1 game. Scourge with allies = lol. And to be quite honest, when cheese isn't involved, teamfights require more skilled play than a 1v1 does. Currently, the best counter against a scourge that I've found on my scrapper, is to pull the firebrand with toolkit and use moa (something holosmith can't do) and pray that your allies burst the firebrand down.

 

Moa shouldn't be the solution.

 

And in a large team fight then there is no counter since there are many firebrands and scourges. And more. I do usually resort to pulling the scourge instead, but half the time they just portal away or press their F5 (because lul scourge is a shade too) and the rest of them push.

[Dralor.3701]

> @"Zefrost.3425" said:

> > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > > > If anyone dies to conditions it is 100% L2P issue. Stay near your support and condition damage is laughable, heaven forbid you might have to slot 1 condi clear for an emergency.

> > > >

> > > > Trailblazer or any other full condi scourge is garbage compared to hybrid.

> > >

> > > L2P scorge you mean. As scorge is both a condi dmg / power dmg class spaming all the condis AND it is the counter to such condi spam though barriers (a tool that even condi dmg cant counter like it can counter healing effects) and mass condi clear 10 targets.

> > >

> > > Scorge problem is the numbers of targets and how it makes blobs in wvw worst.

> >

> > I play a number of different classes and I never die to condi, again if you are too lazy to slot condi clears you only have yourself to blame. Condi while complained about is and has been largely garbage in a competitive environment.

> >

> > Reduce targets from 10 to 5 w/e who cares, bads still going to stand in the red circles and die.

>

> A scrapper traited into inventions and alchemy (not using condi to boon conversion trait) using HGH fox shorter cooldown on condition clear elixirs (elixir gun #5 and auto conversion trait) with gyro heal (2 condi clear) with protection field (5 condi clear) with supply crate med kits (cures all condis) with sigil of generosity (1 condi clear) with sigil of cleansing (1 condi clear) with runes of durability (1 condi clear every 20s with 1s resistance) with protection injection (1 condi clear when CC'd) with elixir gun #5 (1 condi clear + another 1 condi clear with blast) is not enough to deal with a scourge. If you equip purge gyro and elixir C.... THEN... you might be able to survive. But you won't kill the scourge.

>

> In a 1v1 enviroment, you would probably need to run holosmith in full glass and just destroy the scourge. However, this is not a 1v1 game. Scourge with allies = lol. And to be quite honest, when cheese isn't involved, teamfights require more skilled play than a 1v1 does. Currently, the best counter against a scourge that I've found on my scrapper, is to pull the firebrand with toolkit and use moa (something holosmith can't do) and pray that your allies burst the firebrand down.

>

> Moa shouldn't be the solution.

>

> And in a large team fight then there is no counter since there are many firebrands and scourges. And more. I do usually resort to pulling the scourge instead, but half the time they just portal away or press their F5 (because lul scourge is a shade too) and the rest of them push.

 

So in a zerg you have no support classes or people clearing condis? The scenarios being presented just aren’t realistic. I mean that scrapper you mention, if you have half of that and still have an issue staying alive the problem is behind the keyboard not with any one classes balance. Or my perception is really off and my server must have a lot of awesome people running support builds that I don’t notice.

 

Plenty of classes can kill a scourge 1v1, it is highly susceptible to CC and ranged.

 

Again, agreeing it the class needs some tuning but let’s not be ridiculous.

[narcx.3570]

As much as we can go back and forth on how Scourge is OP vs is Fine... I think we can all agree how stupid it is when it comes to tower/keep/castle sieges. 100% of the wall is just instantly covered with staff marks and sand shades flashing their kitten--not to mention torch 5 hitting out of sight siege. Scourges are supposed to have to keep LoS with their shades, but since walls are such a buggy thing, they clearly do not, and the good ones (or ones that care enough to use google) all know how to abuse this.

 

While I think the LoS issues when it comes to walls and aoe targeting is super-dumb in general and is something that technically affects all classes, it also perfectly illustrates the scourge dilemma since contributes to 50%+ of your average pug zerg being all scourge. Something that game changing that affects the meta that much while also requiring little to no skill to execute is something that should definitely be addressed in any competitive game mode.

 

I do agree that Scourges are not a problem 1v1 tho, or even in team fights out in the open... That's all l2p issues--BUT, I can definitely understand some people's frustration due to the complete lack of effort involved in playing the class and how they are even stronger when you stack them, which shouldn't be the case.

 

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

why do scourges, who benefit from trailblazer, have insanely high base hp, also get tons of barrier?

 

If a class should not benefit from barriers at all, it would be scourges.

 

Take away barrier and/or lower their hp - and the scourge problem would evaporate overnight.

 

It is kind of ridiculous that a well placed power bomb takes out scores of revs and make firebrands go in panic heal mode while scourges don't even notice that something is going on.

[Ubi.4136]

Read the siege thread, and it's nothing but complaints about arrow carts and shield gens. What's funny about the AC complaints, it that you need more than 3 hitting the exact same spot to actually hit players through the endless barriers due to the stupid amount of scourges being fielded. And, even then, they can usually stand there not dying.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> why do scourges, who benefit from trailblazer, have insanely high base hp, also get tons of barrier?

>

> If a class should not benefit from barriers at all, it would be scourges.

>

> Take away barrier and/or lower their hp - and the scourge problem would evaporate overnight.

>

> It is kind of ridiculous that a well placed power bomb takes out scores of revs and make firebrands go in panic heal mode while scourges don't even notice that something is going on.

 

Probably because they have no mobility. The one skill people try to claim is mobility (sand swell), actually only gains about 200-300 units when used. If used side by side with someone running, due to cast time and how it lands; it's basically like a short teleport

 

The scourge's main problem is their mobility, they are complete sitting ducks to ranged classes. It's the biggest mismatch in the game. A ranger can kill a scourge in less than 7 seconds even despite all the barrier and healing throw at it.

 

That "well placed power bomb" can easily be eradicated with literally 1 ranger in the group. So the problem isn't the scourge itself, it's the players unwillingness to play classes to counter them that's the crux of the issue. So when you mention "scourges don't even notice something that's going on" tells me that the groups of you've been in either have little to no ranged classes or your squad leaders/commanders refuse to have players run them. Again, that is a player problem, not a scourge problem.

[tippolit.3591]

> As i said you cant play it with out destroying your skill as a player in gw2. In effect if you play scorge you will only be able to play scorge in a group fight from there on out > and if there is any real update to the class a lot of ppl are going to be out of luck because they lost there skill at playing gw2. Scorge is about as harmful to the game type > as imaginable.

 

I completely agree. This has so dumbed down WvW that these people may as well be playing Chutes and Ladders for all the skill it takes. For the most part there is no targeting whatsoever … just dump a shitload of red circles in the vicinity of the enemy and hope for a kill or run into people and hope they succumb to the mobile condi. I'm bitterly disappointed that the devs have let this nonsense go on for as long as it has. Do they not play WvW?

[Dralor.3701]

If they played they would see balance is a mess all over the place.

[Jski.6180]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > why do scourges, who benefit from trailblazer, have insanely high base hp, also get tons of barrier?

> >

> > If a class should not benefit from barriers at all, it would be scourges.

> >

> > Take away barrier and/or lower their hp - and the scourge problem would evaporate overnight.

> >

> > It is kind of ridiculous that a well placed power bomb takes out scores of revs and make firebrands go in panic heal mode while scourges don't even notice that something is going on.

>

> Probably because they have no mobility. The one skill people try to claim is mobility (sand swell), actually only gains about 200-300 units when used. If used side by side with someone running, due to cast time and how it lands; it's basically like a short teleport

>

> The scourge's main problem is their mobility, they are complete sitting ducks to ranged classes. It's the biggest mismatch in the game. A ranger can kill a scourge in less than 7 seconds even despite all the barrier and healing throw at it.

>

> That "well placed power bomb" can easily be eradicated with literally 1 ranger in the group. So the problem isn't the scourge itself, it's the players unwillingness to play classes to counter them that's the crux of the issue. So when you mention "scourges don't even notice something that's going on" tells me that the groups of you've been in either have little to no ranged classes or your squad leaders/commanders refuse to have players run them. Again, that is a player problem, not a scourge problem.

 

They have mobility and there skills are ranged as well as melee so in a way there attks are very mobile as well.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Swell 900 and it can be reused as well as core necro Spectral Walk IS a form of mobility.

[Dralor.3701]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > why do scourges, who benefit from trailblazer, have insanely high base hp, also get tons of barrier?

> > >

> > > If a class should not benefit from barriers at all, it would be scourges.

> > >

> > > Take away barrier and/or lower their hp - and the scourge problem would evaporate overnight.

> > >

> > > It is kind of ridiculous that a well placed power bomb takes out scores of revs and make firebrands go in panic heal mode while scourges don't even notice that something is going on.

> >

> > Probably because they have no mobility. The one skill people try to claim is mobility (sand swell), actually only gains about 200-300 units when used. If used side by side with someone running, due to cast time and how it lands; it's basically like a short teleport

> >

> > The scourge's main problem is their mobility, they are complete sitting ducks to ranged classes. It's the biggest mismatch in the game. A ranger can kill a scourge in less than 7 seconds even despite all the barrier and healing throw at it.

> >

> > That "well placed power bomb" can easily be eradicated with literally 1 ranger in the group. So the problem isn't the scourge itself, it's the players unwillingness to play classes to counter them that's the crux of the issue. So when you mention "scourges don't even notice something that's going on" tells me that the groups of you've been in either have little to no ranged classes or your squad leaders/commanders refuse to have players run them. Again, that is a player problem, not a scourge problem.

>

> They have mobility and there skills are ranged as well as melee so in a way there attks are very mobile as well.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Swell 900 and it can be reused as well as core necro Spectral Walk IS a form of mobility.

 

Yeah, they can run two swiftness utilities, swell and three wells all at once. 6 utilities OP.

 

This is what is so frustrating, we can’t have real conversations on the forums because some people are always going to make up the most ridiculous arguments. Please decide which aspects of the class you want to discuss and let’s talk.

 

Ranged power classes have no issue dealing with the scourge, obviously it is hard for melee in the big fights but it is a joke fighting one 1v1 as a sb.