SlippyCheeze.5483 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynn.1659 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"Hume.2876" said: > The only way to fully balance an MMO is to make every class/spec identical. I disagree with everyone in this thread - ANET does a fairly good job. Almost all the classes have a reason to be brought to a raid. And all of them are good in general PvE. Most have some utility in PvP - however again in top PvP some small difference will mean no one will pick that class... > > There is no way fix this without removing differences. I'm gonna borrow your logic for a sec. All content in the game is bad because it's not identical, the only way to balance the content is to make it all the same.Raids, dungeons, fractals, open world pve is not balanced fairly. Anet should balance all content around core game hero challenge difficulty. There is no way fix this without removing differences /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheria.2837 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? > > I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". They mostly do not. They play at odd times when queues are high, which makes absolutely no sense. It's the only time I ever see them and that's very seldom at that. I have played the game a lot more than most - they are few and far between - and I do believe if they saw more of the issues, they'd have a better handle on fixing them a lot faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? > > I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". It is their sense of "balance" and the care about BAD ELITE SPECS DESIGN that is awfull, reason game is bad combat mostly to cater dumb players with condi spam on defensive builds, or reach powercreep builds, to enforce artificial "forced counters", rather than have a decent rock paper scizor or at least a more clever design. It does not matter if they play or not the game, a developer needs to know their product with play or no play time, and needs to measure the impect of the lame stuff they add to this game.... They are simply awfull and they dont care about balance, IMO i think they actually feel forced to balance the game rather than want to bring good experience for every 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbes.3620 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > > > I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? > > > > I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". > > It is their sense of "balance" and the care about BAD ELITE SPECS DESIGN that is awfull, reason game is bad combat mostly to cater dumb players with condi spam on defensive builds, or reach powercreep builds, to enforce artificial "forced counters", rather than have a decent rock paper scizor or at least a more clever design. > > It does not matter if they play or not the game, a developer needs to know their product with play or no play time, and needs to measure the impect of the lame stuff they add to this game.... > They are simply awfull and they dont care about balance, IMO i think they actually feel forced to balance the game rather than want to bring good experience for every 1. i hope i am understanding u wrong but .. I do NOT want rock paper scissors as a gameplay! Defuq i definetly do not want allmighty god "RANDOM" decide my battles yes there are issues in the balancing sure but ur suggesting we should just toss coins.. anyone remember hero battle? tossing coins who is allowed to win? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 I would say balance in Gw2 is a joke, but jokes exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warkind.6745 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 Let me know when S/D thief becomes viable in raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBroChill.3254 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 One big problem I think with the balance is their philosophy on class/profession roles. They wanted to do away with the trinity and make everyone a self sustaining jack of all trades in a sense. What we end up with is a few classes or builds that are generally much more effective at doing this, some that are legitimate jack-of-all trades that are weak when in team comps, and those who just can't do anything thats worthwhile as good as other classes. That's why, in my opinion, designing a game based around real roles in a teamp comp results in better balance and build diversity. Not every class and build is competing with one another and instead you'll have top dogs in 3-5 role categories, instead of a top dog in 1 category. The current system promotes single class stacking. The addition of healer roles I think is a great addition to the game because it gives rangers (and sometimes ele or rev) roles in a competitive environment that they might otherwise be left out of do to being out dps'd by other classes. Even if you divide things up and say x class is better at condi than y class, but y class is better at power than x class, it doesn't matter because they serve the same purpose and the use or desirability of the class depends on if the current meta is power or condi. I get the idea of having no roles, but it results in a dystopia instead of a utopia. If there are no roles and only one objective, than one class is going to be certainly better at that all encompassing role or objective. I believe its time for reworking things to make them more focused and to further the promotion of class roles because it gives a class a better identity and purpose and is honestly more fulfilling when you can do you're specific job successfully. I'm aware not everyone feels this way though, especially more casual gamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 They could start with at least making each class have one viable spec in each game mode (something other mmos accomplish) or at the very least come close. As a mainly WvW player I mainly see anything aside from fb, scourge and sb in blobs. Roaming is a little more diverse but it could also just be a byproduct of the other classes being sub par in a group environment. Balance is also too infrequent. I understand they have a small team but I’ve never played another MMO where they allow things to remain broken for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > > > I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? > > > > I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". > > It is their sense of "balance" and the care about BAD ELITE SPECS DESIGN that is awfull, reason game is bad combat mostly to cater dumb players with condi spam on defensive builds, or reach powercreep builds, to enforce artificial "forced counters", rather than have a decent rock paper scizor or at least a more clever design. > > It does not matter if they play or not the game, a developer needs to know their product with play or no play time, and needs to measure the impect of the lame stuff they add to this game.... > They are simply awfull and they dont care about balance, IMO i think they actually feel forced to balance the game rather than want to bring good experience for every 1. Again, don't assume because you don't have the balance you want, that the devs don't know their product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > I get the idea of having no roles, but it results in a dystopia instead of a utopia. If there are no roles and only one objective, than one class is going to be certainly better at that all encompassing role or objective. I believe its time for reworking things to make them more focused and to further the promotion of class roles because it gives a class a better identity and purpose and is honestly more fulfilling when you can do you're specific job successfully. I'm aware not everyone feels this way though, especially more casual gamers. I don't know that the issue is profession design, so much as it is encounters and skills and skillbar restrictions. E.g., the lack of a dedicated healer role was in part due to lacking the skills and traits to enable such a build, in part due to the fact every character is _required_ to carry enough self-sustain that it's less useful in a group, in part due to the fact that healing power had less impact, in part due to encounter length and design promoting avoiding the need for healing through active defense and high DPS. You could make similar arguments for other roles. Thanks to weapons, class skills, and the dedicated heal and "elite" slot, it's pretty hard to create a setup which is focused on punishment or control. Prior to the Taunt condition, there was pretty much no aggro management, which means no tank role. Things have gotten somewhat better for support builds, but that's about it. But even if the skills were there to support it, it would be hard to find any PvE content, maybe outside of raids, where such a specialist would be better than another DPS character. Enemies just don't have enough means to make pure DPS a recipe for disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 The biggest problem is that Anet really doesn't give us many 'problems' to solve in this game. When everything is a nail, the optimal solution is always a hammer. Everything in this game is about solving DPS, with a sprinkle of dodge here, don't stand in red circle there, so the primary strategy is to DPS the hell out of everything, with a few back up heals and support buffs. Unfortunately that IS a consequence of removing the holy trinity and simplifying the game to appeal to a wider audience. It's just a trade off ... when you don't have roles, you don't need balance because you don't need people to play specific classes to have a successful solution to the problems presented to you ingame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephemiel.5694 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > The biggest problem is that Anet really doesn't give us many 'problems' to solve in this game. When everything is a nail, the optimal solution is always a hammer. Everything in this game is about solving DPS, with a sprinkle of dodge here, don't stand in red circle there, so the primary strategy is to DPS the hell out of everything, with a few back up heals and support buffs. Unfortunately that IS a consequence of removing the holy trinity and simplifying the game to appeal to a wider audience. It's just a trade off ... when you don't have roles, you don't need balance because you don't need people to play specific classes to have a successful solution to the problems presented to you ingame. The whole "just DPS and learn to dodge" thing would've easily worked. But then they decided to add actual raids [that require actual healing] and actual healers like Druid. They added part of the trinity in a game 100% designed to not have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eramonster.2718 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > The biggest problem is that Anet really doesn't give us many 'problems' to solve in this game. When everything is a nail, the optimal solution is always a hammer. Everything in this game is about solving DPS, with a sprinkle of dodge here, don't stand in red circle there, so the primary strategy is to DPS the hell out of everything, with a few back up heals and support buffs. Unfortunately that IS a consequence of removing the holy trinity and simplifying the game to appeal to a wider audience. It's just a trade off ... when you don't have roles, you don't need balance because you don't need people to play specific classes to have a successful solution to the problems presented to you ingame. > > The whole "just DPS and learn to dodge" thing would've easily worked. > > But then they decided to add actual raids [that require actual healing] and actual healers like Druid. They added part of the trinity in a game 100% designed to not have it. Try it from another angle, why introducing a supportive role? Proven possible to clear some raids without a healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > > > > > I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? > > > > > > I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". > > > > It is their sense of "balance" and the care about BAD ELITE SPECS DESIGN that is awfull, reason game is bad combat mostly to cater dumb players with condi spam on defensive builds, or reach powercreep builds, to enforce artificial "forced counters", rather than have a decent rock paper scizor or at least a more clever design. > > > > It does not matter if they play or not the game, a developer needs to know their product with play or no play time, and needs to measure the impect of the lame stuff they add to this game.... > > They are simply awfull and they dont care about balance, IMO i think they actually feel forced to balance the game rather than want to bring good experience for every 1. > > Again, don't assume because you don't have the balance you want, that the devs don't know their product. I know, but when they implemented the scourge even on HoT they did alot of mistakes , and other stuff that mostly u can leech to be carried rather then search to add decent gameplay to the game.... i start to doubt they actually have any idea on how to make a pleasent mmo rather than be a mmo for lamers. @Eramonster.2718, any design can work if the persons working have any idea of the impact their changes will do, if not... game ends a mess of builds and roles, damage and spam.. wich is fammiliar. When a counter to something is arround powercreep targets... lel.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlippyCheeze.5483 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > > > > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > > > > > > > I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? > > > > > > > > I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". > > > > > > It is their sense of "balance" and the care about BAD ELITE SPECS DESIGN that is awfull, reason game is bad combat mostly to cater dumb players with condi spam on defensive builds, or reach powercreep builds, to enforce artificial "forced counters", rather than have a decent rock paper scizor or at least a more clever design. > > > > > > It does not matter if they play or not the game, a developer needs to know their product with play or no play time, and needs to measure the impect of the lame stuff they add to this game.... > > > They are simply awfull and they dont care about balance, IMO i think they actually feel forced to balance the game rather than want to bring good experience for every 1. > > > > Again, don't assume because you don't have the balance you want, that the devs don't know their product. > > I know, but when they implemented the scourge even on HoT they did alot of mistakes , and other stuff that mostly u can leech to be carried rather then search to add decent gameplay to the game.... i start to doubt they actually have any idea on how to make a pleasent mmo rather than be a mmo for lamers. Given that view, I cannot strongly enough suggest you will **never** be happy playing GW2, and you should absolutely find a game developed in line with your tastes. I'm certain someone out there has build a [sic] pleasent mmo, and you can leave GW2 to us [sic] lamers. As to the current argument, if you wish to meaningfully contribute, it isn't enough to just assert "on HoT they did [sic] alot of mistakes". What were the mistakes? Define them, concretely. Provide anything that acts as supporting evidence. Without that, you just look like you dislike the design, and so you are blaming the designers, rather than accepting that you are getting their vision, and it just doesn't work for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > > > > > > > > > I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? > > > > > > > > > > I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". > > > > > > > > It is their sense of "balance" and the care about BAD ELITE SPECS DESIGN that is awfull, reason game is bad combat mostly to cater dumb players with condi spam on defensive builds, or reach powercreep builds, to enforce artificial "forced counters", rather than have a decent rock paper scizor or at least a more clever design. > > > > > > > > It does not matter if they play or not the game, a developer needs to know their product with play or no play time, and needs to measure the impect of the lame stuff they add to this game.... > > > > They are simply awfull and they dont care about balance, IMO i think they actually feel forced to balance the game rather than want to bring good experience for every 1. > > > > > > Again, don't assume because you don't have the balance you want, that the devs don't know their product. > > > > I know, but when they implemented the scourge even on HoT they did alot of mistakes , and other stuff that mostly u can leech to be carried rather then search to add decent gameplay to the game.... i start to doubt they actually have any idea on how to make a pleasent mmo rather than be a mmo for lamers. > > Given that view, I cannot strongly enough suggest you will **never** be happy playing GW2, and you should absolutely find a game developed in line with your tastes. I'm certain someone out there has build a [sic] pleasent mmo, and you can leave GW2 to us [sic] lamers. > > As to the current argument, if you wish to meaningfully contribute, it isn't enough to just assert "on HoT they did [sic] alot of mistakes". What were the mistakes? Define them, concretely. Provide anything that acts as supporting evidence. Without that, you just look like you dislike the design, and so you are blaming the designers, rather than accepting that you are getting their vision, and it just doesn't work for you. This game is ok for pve players and i dont mind that, it just it feels incomplete in PVP in some asspects then developers try to hide that with anawfull class design (as in non clever gameplay) theres always builds where u actually can leech with lesser effort. And the HoT mistakes were already spoken by alot of players, wich they added and even worsen with PoF... For example the game is over exaggerated in AOE spam, it started to be in HoT players complained about it, and Anet really managed to get the worse, by overtune it even more. I imagine next expantion to cater scrubs and casuals Anet will even over tune even more the aoe spam rate to make the product apealing to alot of pve players while damaging the pvp gamemodes even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlippyCheeze.5483 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". > > > > > > > > > > It is their sense of "balance" and the care about BAD ELITE SPECS DESIGN that is awfull, reason game is bad combat mostly to cater dumb players with condi spam on defensive builds, or reach powercreep builds, to enforce artificial "forced counters", rather than have a decent rock paper scizor or at least a more clever design. > > > > > > > > > > It does not matter if they play or not the game, a developer needs to know their product with play or no play time, and needs to measure the impect of the lame stuff they add to this game.... > > > > > They are simply awfull and they dont care about balance, IMO i think they actually feel forced to balance the game rather than want to bring good experience for every 1. > > > > > > > > Again, don't assume because you don't have the balance you want, that the devs don't know their product. > > > > > > I know, but when they implemented the scourge even on HoT they did alot of mistakes , and other stuff that mostly u can leech to be carried rather then search to add decent gameplay to the game.... i start to doubt they actually have any idea on how to make a pleasent mmo rather than be a mmo for lamers. > > > > Given that view, I cannot strongly enough suggest you will **never** be happy playing GW2, and you should absolutely find a game developed in line with your tastes. I'm certain someone out there has build a [sic] pleasent mmo, and you can leave GW2 to us [sic] lamers. > > > > As to the current argument, if you wish to meaningfully contribute, it isn't enough to just assert "on HoT they did [sic] alot of mistakes". What were the mistakes? Define them, concretely. Provide anything that acts as supporting evidence. Without that, you just look like you dislike the design, and so you are blaming the designers, rather than accepting that you are getting their vision, and it just doesn't work for you. > > This game is ok for pve players and i dont mind that, it just it feels incomplete in PVP in some asspects then developers try to hide that with anawfull class design (as in non clever gameplay) theres always builds where u actually can leech with lesser effort. > And the HoT mistakes were already spoken by alot of players, wich they added and even worsen with PoF... Dude, seriously, just leave already. It is never gonna be what you want. You are just hurting yourself by staying here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". > > > > > > > > > > > > It is their sense of "balance" and the care about BAD ELITE SPECS DESIGN that is awfull, reason game is bad combat mostly to cater dumb players with condi spam on defensive builds, or reach powercreep builds, to enforce artificial "forced counters", rather than have a decent rock paper scizor or at least a more clever design. > > > > > > > > > > > > It does not matter if they play or not the game, a developer needs to know their product with play or no play time, and needs to measure the impect of the lame stuff they add to this game.... > > > > > > They are simply awfull and they dont care about balance, IMO i think they actually feel forced to balance the game rather than want to bring good experience for every 1. > > > > > > > > > > Again, don't assume because you don't have the balance you want, that the devs don't know their product. > > > > > > > > I know, but when they implemented the scourge even on HoT they did alot of mistakes , and other stuff that mostly u can leech to be carried rather then search to add decent gameplay to the game.... i start to doubt they actually have any idea on how to make a pleasent mmo rather than be a mmo for lamers. > > > > > > Given that view, I cannot strongly enough suggest you will **never** be happy playing GW2, and you should absolutely find a game developed in line with your tastes. I'm certain someone out there has build a [sic] pleasent mmo, and you can leave GW2 to us [sic] lamers. > > > > > > As to the current argument, if you wish to meaningfully contribute, it isn't enough to just assert "on HoT they did [sic] alot of mistakes". What were the mistakes? Define them, concretely. Provide anything that acts as supporting evidence. Without that, you just look like you dislike the design, and so you are blaming the designers, rather than accepting that you are getting their vision, and it just doesn't work for you. > > > > This game is ok for pve players and i dont mind that, it just it feels incomplete in PVP in some asspects then developers try to hide that with anawfull class design (as in non clever gameplay) theres always builds where u actually can leech with lesser effort. > > And the HoT mistakes were already spoken by alot of players, wich they added and even worsen with PoF... > > Dude, seriously, just leave already. It is never gonna be what you want. You are just hurting yourself by staying here. Just requesting less gimmick based combat... asking to much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlippyCheeze.5483 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is their sense of "balance" and the care about BAD ELITE SPECS DESIGN that is awfull, reason game is bad combat mostly to cater dumb players with condi spam on defensive builds, or reach powercreep builds, to enforce artificial "forced counters", rather than have a decent rock paper scizor or at least a more clever design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does not matter if they play or not the game, a developer needs to know their product with play or no play time, and needs to measure the impect of the lame stuff they add to this game.... > > > > > > > They are simply awfull and they dont care about balance, IMO i think they actually feel forced to balance the game rather than want to bring good experience for every 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, don't assume because you don't have the balance you want, that the devs don't know their product. > > > > > > > > > > I know, but when they implemented the scourge even on HoT they did alot of mistakes , and other stuff that mostly u can leech to be carried rather then search to add decent gameplay to the game.... i start to doubt they actually have any idea on how to make a pleasent mmo rather than be a mmo for lamers. > > > > > > > > Given that view, I cannot strongly enough suggest you will **never** be happy playing GW2, and you should absolutely find a game developed in line with your tastes. I'm certain someone out there has build a [sic] pleasent mmo, and you can leave GW2 to us [sic] lamers. > > > > > > > > As to the current argument, if you wish to meaningfully contribute, it isn't enough to just assert "on HoT they did [sic] alot of mistakes". What were the mistakes? Define them, concretely. Provide anything that acts as supporting evidence. Without that, you just look like you dislike the design, and so you are blaming the designers, rather than accepting that you are getting their vision, and it just doesn't work for you. > > > > > > This game is ok for pve players and i dont mind that, it just it feels incomplete in PVP in some asspects then developers try to hide that with anawfull class design (as in non clever gameplay) theres always builds where u actually can leech with lesser effort. > > > And the HoT mistakes were already spoken by alot of players, wich they added and even worsen with PoF... > > > > Dude, seriously, just leave already. It is never gonna be what you want. You are just hurting yourself by staying here. > > Just requesting less gimmick based combat... asking to much? All the evidence says yes: ANet doesn't seem to have any intention of changing what you are complaining about, which is identical to complaints from years ago. Asking for a game with less gimmick based combat is perfectly reasonable. Asking ANet to change GW2 into that game is ... well, asking is reasonable. It just isn't likely to happen on the evidence of years, so sticking around in the hope that your request is the one that changes it seems like a bad idea. If I was you, I'd definitely look for a game that did better match what I wanted in terms of gameplay. I can say that with certainty, in fact, because here I am playing GW2 after I left other MMOs on more or less the same basis -- I didn't like the choices the game developers were making, and it became clear they were committed to them, so rather than continuing to beat my head against the wall I went looking for something that did work for me. (Different mechanics from the ones you are annoyed about, but the same principal, if you follow.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > > > > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > > > > > > > I wonder what makes them think that the developers *don't* play the game? > > > > > > > > I'd, uh, rather like imagining the answer is not "they must not play the game, because balance is bad, because they can't balance it, because they don't play the game". > > > > > > It is their sense of "balance" and the care about BAD ELITE SPECS DESIGN that is awfull, reason game is bad combat mostly to cater dumb players with condi spam on defensive builds, or reach powercreep builds, to enforce artificial "forced counters", rather than have a decent rock paper scizor or at least a more clever design. > > > > > > It does not matter if they play or not the game, a developer needs to know their product with play or no play time, and needs to measure the impect of the lame stuff they add to this game.... > > > They are simply awfull and they dont care about balance, IMO i think they actually feel forced to balance the game rather than want to bring good experience for every 1. > > > > Again, don't assume because you don't have the balance you want, that the devs don't know their product. > > I know, but when they implemented the scourge even on HoT they did alot of mistakes , and other stuff that mostly u can leech to be carried rather then search to add decent gameplay to the game.... i start to doubt they actually have any idea on how to make a pleasent mmo rather than be a mmo for lamers. > > > @Eramonster.2718, any design can work if the persons working have any idea of the impact their changes will do, if not... game ends a mess of builds and roles, damage and spam.. wich is fammiliar. > When a counter to something is arround powercreep targets... lel.... Again, what you view as 'mistakes' could be completely intentional. Just from your language, you don't seem to appreciate the target market for this game. Besides, how do you even qualify mistakes? Why is it reasonable to expect no mistakes to be made EVEN if Anet understands their game? Do you not appreciate the restraints they face when design it? Doesn't sound like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlinvf.1358 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. It could make a huge difference..... presuming you had a Dev that can process the data. One of the biggest concerns with a lot Studios at the moment is "Metrics driven design". Metrics are a useful tool for a lot of reasons..... but they become dangerous when they supplant rigorous practical tests. For instance.... selection pool issues aside, having a test server to either blanket or focus test balance changes generates substantially different data then merely observing existing trends, and predicting the response to the live environment. They have the capacity to do this, as seen by the Beta weekends. But it raises the question as to why they don't leverage this for at least PvP, where the small instance sizes make for an easy control group. Or why they don't change the WvW seasons to 7 weeks, and dedicate 1 week between seasons to test balance changes prior to the next season (relink and server scoring assessment). The 1 week down time gives EVERYONE the ability to reorganize, take a break, and take the changes for a test drive, letting them go into the new season strong. If it requires a beta slot to access the servers, then so be it.... they have the capability to support this, as well as the ability to mix beta and live players so long as there isn't a class overlap. They even have the ability to split skills by mode....... if there was any reason to actually leverage this feature, THIS would be it. And I could had sworn they had a Beta Gear box in POF, that saved your existing gear, and assigned a Beta gear set for the PoF intro level during beta weekend. They could easily adapt this to WvW with Mist gear (choosy stats with a reset option), and have the vendors issue soul bound runes/sigils to flesh them out. When the player leaves WvW, the gear profile is saved into the box. By UTILIZING features they already have, the only thing stopping from setting any kind of larger scale test group is "the decision to not do it". Their iteration rate is abysmal for simpler number tweaks.... and they had at one point openly committed to "shaving" style balance to increase iteration speed, and hit equilibrium faster.... only to abandon it after 1 cycle, for reasons still unknown to the public. But what does this have to do with Metrics I was talking about? Well..... Balance changes appear to be made in a vacuum, but they aren't random. They always attempt to address a symptom, even if they don't actually address the root cause. Half the time, these changes don't align with how the player understand the problem; or target something the players weren't even talking about. That tells 2 things..... They are taking forum feed back to identify issues, but they are using an entirely different data set to target changes. Ones which the players had no ability to identify, or even knew existed in some cases. While it "could" mean the Devs are operating on a level of insight that boarders on clairvoyance.... in reality, they're probably looking at a bunch of metrics, and playing a round of "If I know anything about which number is bigger then the other number" (ala Hermes S Conrad). And this is what comes back around to what I was talking about in the beginning..... they know "what' we're doing, but they have no clue WHY we're doing it. And since the bulk of discussion about the Meta revolving around "bug numbers", I get the eerie feeling that the Devs are using similar benchmark methods in order to mirror player behavior when doing number based balance tweaks. The mechanical changes for balance tend to be more "shots in the dark", as most have a decent premise........ but regularly favor making it more convoluted as a way to increase the skill requirement. I can't be the only that noticed that the performance of classes are almost proportional to the fluidity of the skills..... and that the single most common problem that holds several classes/especs back, is clunky controls. I've seen this phenomenon in 2 other games.... both action based MMOs. And frankly the similarities/hall marks are terrifying. The round about method of approaching a balance problem, the inconsistent magnitude of balance changes, the desire to bluntly disrupt a meta, only to have it suffer polar inversion, changes to address issues no one was aware of, and somehow change nothing in practice, and the extreme difficulty to convey the problem they're trying to solve. And that includes buffing things that were already working, or above power budget to begin with. For the most part, a Developer can't functionally think like a player, because most systems are heavily obfuscated, and players tend to streamline by default (thus what should happen, and what is happening rarely align perfectly). This is why the industry started employing play testers internally..... people who can bridge that gap at the level of a power user. But they are a finite and expensive resource, and many developers are trying to leverage public testers for large scale projects that would be too costly to do with professional testers alone. This has its advantages and disadvantages..... but there is a growing trend by many companies to downsize their Test teams and replace them with unpaid public testers. It should surprise no one that public testers are lower caliber..... but with some games, all you really need them for is stress tests and shotgun probability bug hunting (statistically, a large group will stumble upon a problem randomly more consistently then an internal tester searching systematically). They aren't a replacement to a well seasoned testing team, they are an augmentation to enable what the seasoned team statically can't do on their own. Can you start to see the problem when this feedback loop isn't complete? Just being exposed to a player base at large is exhausting..... but the information they provide is a combination of invaluable and utterly worthless, unless you know how to digest the information. But its such a rare skill, that is so much better rewarded in other fields, that finding people like this AND have ample design prowess is like finding a unicorn that can poop holy grails, and knows all the winning lottery number . So much so, that you probably know most of them by name at some point in your gaming life, by the work they're associated with. And whats frustrating is everyone could technically be right, yet all have completely different interpretations of what the problem is. So when theres some bit of data thats objectively easy to quantify, could you blame someone for thinking it could be the closest thing to an absolute truth you can get? There are few things in life where I can safely say this would be easier to handle if it were a paradox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 > @"starlinvf.1358" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > It could make a huge difference..... presuming you had a Dev that can process the data. Yup, maybe ... it COULD make a big difference. Unfortunately, you missed the point, which was to say the current situation can exist regardless of devs playing the game or not. Frankly, the devs have told us outright they play GW2 (why wouldn't they?). The poster thinks that the current state of the game is a mistake because the devs don't play it. I'm of the opinion that the currest state of the game is a RESULT of the devs playing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlippyCheeze.5483 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"starlinvf.1358" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"atheria.2837" said: > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said: > > > > > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world. > > > > > > > > > > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith. > > > > > > > > > > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions). > > > > > > > > > > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits. > > > > > > > > > > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits? > > > > > > > > If those who built the game actually played the game as much as some of us, things might not be so imbalanced and there certainly couldn't be 'undentable' toons in PvP and WvW. > > > > > > What makes you think that having the devs play the game would give a different result? You don't think the current situation could possibly exist if the devs understood how different each class performs in PVP/WvW? I don't think you could be more wrong. > > > > It could make a huge difference..... presuming you had a Dev that can process the data. > > Yup, maybe ... it COULD make a big difference. Unfortunately, you missed the point, which was to say the current situation can exist regardless of devs playing the game or not. Frankly, the devs have told us outright they play GW2 (why wouldn't they?). The poster thinks that the current state of the game is a mistake because the devs don't play it. I'm of the opinion that the currest state of the game is a RESULT of the devs playing it. Yeah, I always figure that any description of the world predicate on the idea that a successful group of people are all idiots, completely unable to achieve anything they target, then ... it probably isn't a very sound line of reasoning that supports it. Not just here, all over the place. Politics is a big one it shows up in. No, they don't disagree with you because they know nothing, they disagree with you after having thought about things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefantasticg.3984 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Yup, it is your bad because a lack of balance doesn't prevent you from playing the class you want with the builds you want. You just need to find people who think the same way and team with them ... just like people who want to play optimized comps do. Being rejected from a team isn't a balance issue, it's a player comfort level issue. 5 years ago you would be hard pressed to get a PUG dungeon team with a necro ... now, you can take that SAME build and join any dungeon PUG you want, even though we have the same level of balance performance we did 5 years ago. This is NOT a balance problem. > > You're trying to force your desires for how to play on others because you want them to accept you ... then you complain when they use that same desire to reject you. That makes no sense. If you want to play _a whatever_, you better find groups that are willing to let you play _a whatever_ with them. The sad part is that those groups exist ... because LOTS of people want to play _a whatever._ You just have to go find them. > > The level of sense you're making is at Cosmic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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