Mesmer update discussion - May 22 patch notes

[zealex.9410]

> @"Emtiarbi.3281" said:

> * Echo of Memory: Reduced the damage inflicted by the illusionary avenger by 50%.

 

Why is this unsplit?

[Roy.2846]

 

>

> The complaining won't end. Because people don't like fighting Mesmers. Mesmer will be one of the bandwagon classes every single time so... We better get used to it. :v

 

When you win a fight as mesmer, they whisper you hack/bot, when you lose, then you are noob with op class.

 

This is my pvp experience as a mesmer

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Roy.2846" said:

>

> >

> > The complaining won't end. Because people don't like fighting Mesmers. Mesmer will be one of the bandwagon classes every single time so... We better get used to it. :v

>

> When you win a fight as mesmer, they whisper you are noob with op class, when you lose, then you are noob with op class.

>

> This is my pvp experience as a mesmer

>

 

FTFY ;P

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

I'll be honest, I had a bit more success with chaotic interrupt IH mirage since I don't have to worry about being hard countered by meta power BD chronos. I know its more to do with BD got nerf to ground rather than CI getting better, but its still fun to load enemy with a lot of immob :P

[OriOri.8724]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> The biggest concern that I don’t see many talking about is where this pushes the class in general. These are some very large nerfs and 50% damage reductions really shouldn’t be handed out in anything but absolute extreme “we need to fix this absolutely now before it ruins the game” moments so really emergencies.

>

> Sustained damage has been gutted, there isn’t a decent sustained power damage build anymore so mesmers will now have to go mirage. So then we will see condition builds but not many enjoyed this, they didn’t enjoy fighting it, some didn’t enjoy playing it and some are tired of it as it was the best sustained damage build mesmers had towards the back year of HoT.

>

> When that gets gutted, because it will, what’s next? Power shatter being the only really viable build I think, even now people are still complaining over it and it’s not healthy to have 100-0 builds running around.

 

This is what you end up with when the class designers refuse to address the 1-2 things that are the root of the problem, and instead chase after the symptoms. Disenchanter and defender absolutely needed their damage nerfed, but most of the problems with the chrono build could have been solved by changing CP and changing the active effect on SotE. Yes, there were some other problems, like illusionary defense, and the stab on BD could have been limited to just one or two shatters. But by and large, actually addressing SotE and CP would have removed the need for these nerfs which hurt core mesmer way more than they hurt chronomancer

[kipthelip.5802]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> The biggest concern that I don’t see many talking about is where this pushes the class in general. These are some very large nerfs and 50% damage reductions really shouldn’t be handed out in anything but absolute extreme “we need to fix this absolutely now before it ruins the game” moments so really emergencies.

>

> Sustained damage has been gutted, there isn’t a decent sustained power damage build anymore so mesmers will now have to go mirage. So then we will see condition builds but not many enjoyed this, they didn’t enjoy fighting it, some didn’t enjoy playing it and some are tired of it as it was the best sustained damage build mesmers had towards the back year of HoT.

>

> When that gets gutted, because it will, what’s next? Power shatter being the only really viable build I think, even now people are still complaining over it and it’s not healthy to have 100-0 builds running around.

 

That was exactly the situation we were in spvp ie having to take strong steps immediately although since this has been a problem for months I dont see this as some kind of emergency nerf at all. Steamers were banning them from tournaments. I mean wake up and stop being so self interested. Mesmers were a complete awful nuisance in spvp especially the higher in skil level you got. Good players on Mesmers could easily carry matches. Of course you wouldnt see it that way thats what you played and probably not very well since you don't see the big problem it was.

[apharma.3741]

> @"kipthelip.5802" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > The biggest concern that I don’t see many talking about is where this pushes the class in general. These are some very large nerfs and 50% damage reductions really shouldn’t be handed out in anything but absolute extreme “we need to fix this absolutely now before it ruins the game” moments so really emergencies.

> >

> > Sustained damage has been gutted, there isn’t a decent sustained power damage build anymore so mesmers will now have to go mirage. So then we will see condition builds but not many enjoyed this, they didn’t enjoy fighting it, some didn’t enjoy playing it and some are tired of it as it was the best sustained damage build mesmers had towards the back year of HoT.

> >

> > When that gets gutted, because it will, what’s next? Power shatter being the only really viable build I think, even now people are still complaining over it and it’s not healthy to have 100-0 builds running around.

>

> That was exactly the situation we were in spvp ie having to take strong steps immediately although since this has been a problem for months I dont see this as some kind of emergency nerf at all. Steamers were banning them from tournaments. I mean wake up and stop being so self interested. Mesmers were a complete awful nuisance in spvp especially the higher in skil level you got. Good players on Mesmers could easily carry matches. Of course you wouldnt see it that way thats what you played and probably not very well since you don't see the big problem it was.

 

No, this was the situation 2 months ago, had they made these changes 2 months ago I’d have been disappointed but it would be a very quick solution for a build over performing by a lot. This kind of change is not something you’d expect after having 3 months to make changes especially when pretty much the only balance changes we’ve had were under water changes.

 

After having 3 months to analyse the situation I would have expected a more elegant nerf or at least one that didn’t include a random change to a phantasm that isn’t over performing.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Emtiarbi.3281" said:

> > * Echo of Memory: Reduced the damage inflicted by the illusionary avenger by 50%.

>

> Why is this unsplit?

 

I don't think it actually is? Avenger skill crits for 8k in casual PvE right now.

[TotallyNotJazzie.1493]

As a non-mesmer player, the only build I wanted nerfs for was the insta-burst 100-0 stuff. Instead you received these nerfs to evadable stuff which confused even me after previous nerfs that aimed at this before.

 

Came on mesmer forum to see reaction and what you peeps thought.

[Xaylin.1860]

I'm a bit baffled by the iWarlock nerf. I expected iZerker to be a more likely target. iWarlock is so easy to LoS and now pretty unattractive unless you want it for stacking Bleeds with Sharper Images. The Stab nerf on BD I also don't get. It's neglectable for PvE and while the boons are nice in general, in PvP I'd only pick it because I don't really need PU and CI is underperforming. Poor Chaos traitline.

 

I'm glad, though, that they are keeping it split from PvE.

 

> @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> As a non-mesmer player, the only build I wanted nerfs for was the insta-burst 100-0 stuff. Instead you received these nerfs to evadable stuff which confused even me after previous nerfs that aimed at this before.

>

> Came on mesmer forum to see reaction and what you peeps thought.

 

While something had/has to be done: The "insta" 100-0 stuff was always a playstyle innate to Mesmers. It won't go away completely unless we got another rework ahead.

[TotallyNotJazzie.1493]

> @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> I'm a bit baffled by the iWarlock nerf. I expected iZerker to be a more likely target. iWarlock is so easy to LoS and now pretty unattractive unless you want it for stacking Bleeds with Sharper Images. The Stab nerf on BD I also don't get. It's neglectable for PvE and while the boons are nice in general, in PvP I'd only pick it because I don't really need PU and CI is underperforming. Poor Chaos traitline.

>

> I'm glad, though, that they are keeping it split from PvE.

>

> > @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > As a non-mesmer player, the only build I wanted nerfs for was the insta-burst 100-0 stuff. Instead you received these nerfs to evadable stuff which confused even me after previous nerfs that aimed at this before.

> >

> > Came on mesmer forum to see reaction and what you peeps thought.

>

> While something had/has to be done: The "insta" 100-0 stuff was always a playstyle innate to Mesmers. It won't go away completely unless we got another rework ahead.

 

The stability nerf really was the one that had me scratching my head. As a Warrior and Scrapper main, when I gain stability, i GAIN stability, not just have it pop onto my buff bar to only disappear straight away. That’s the dish you guys were served and I think it tastes foul. They really should just replace the stab with something else at this point.

 

To clarify my nukebomb mesmer point, I don’t mind shatter bomb mesmers being a thing, I really don’t, but I wish there was a better tell for dodge potential, rather than pseudorandom chance dodging. For example, illusions begin to glow bright pink for 1/4 a second *before* Mind Wrack’s damage is created during that weird animation they do for a brief second before shattering, you’ll know that one I mean.

 

It still make it *unlikely* to be dodged but at least *possible* for players with faster than average reaction times.

 

Just my 2 cents and definitely the only tuning to mesmer fights that I wanted. Rest of the balance mesmer needs is just cd tweaks imo nothing like *50% reductions to the core mechanisms of the class*.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> As a non-mesmer player, the only build I wanted nerfs for was the insta-burst 100-0 stuff. Instead you received these nerfs to evadable stuff which confused even me after previous nerfs that aimed at this before.

>

> Came on mesmer forum to see reaction and what you peeps thought.

 

Chronobunker was far more cancerous than Greatsword Mirage. Can't even recall the last time I saw a Greatsword Mirage in platinum tier.

[TotallyNotJazzie.1493]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > As a non-mesmer player, the only build I wanted nerfs for was the insta-burst 100-0 stuff. Instead you received these nerfs to evadable stuff which confused even me after previous nerfs that aimed at this before.

> >

> > Came on mesmer forum to see reaction and what you peeps thought.

>

> Chronobunker was far more cancerous than Greatsword Mirage. Can't even recall the last time I saw a Greatsword Mirage in platinum tier.

 

Tbf I haven’t played PvP for a bit. I fell out of favour with PvP just as Bunker Mesmers became a mainstream thing. Ergo, I don’t have a full perspective on its power in matches. I just remember the portal shatter mesmers appearing for every +1 I had against me for the longest time ever :anguished:

 

That’s why I came here to speak to mesmer mains who might be able to acknowledge its OP cries in a fair way or provide suitable contras to that argument. Either way Anet has dished out its *balance* and we have to see if everything is okay once the dust settles.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > > As a non-mesmer player, the only build I wanted nerfs for was the insta-burst 100-0 stuff. Instead you received these nerfs to evadable stuff which confused even me after previous nerfs that aimed at this before.

> > >

> > > Came on mesmer forum to see reaction and what you peeps thought.

> >

> > Chronobunker was far more cancerous than Greatsword Mirage. Can't even recall the last time I saw a Greatsword Mirage in platinum tier.

>

> Tbf I haven’t played PvP for a bit. I fell out of favour with PvP just as Bunker Mesmers became a mainstream thing. Ergo, I don’t have a full perspective on its power in matches. I just remember the portal shatter mesmers appearing for every +1 I had against me for the longest time ever :anguished:

>

> That’s why I came here to speak to mesmer mains who might be able to acknowledge its OP cries in a fair way or provide suitable contras to that argument. Either way Anet has dished out its *balance* and we have to see if everything is okay once the dust settles.

 

Chronobunker was nuts. Not only did it have the most survivability in the game it could also instagibb players with it's OP phantasms which it always got at least 4 of because of Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > > > As a non-mesmer player, the only build I wanted nerfs for was the insta-burst 100-0 stuff. Instead you received these nerfs to evadable stuff which confused even me after previous nerfs that aimed at this before.

> > > >

> > > > Came on mesmer forum to see reaction and what you peeps thought.

> > >

> > > Chronobunker was far more cancerous than Greatsword Mirage. Can't even recall the last time I saw a Greatsword Mirage in platinum tier.

> >

> > Tbf I haven’t played PvP for a bit. I fell out of favour with PvP just as Bunker Mesmers became a mainstream thing. Ergo, I don’t have a full perspective on its power in matches. I just remember the portal shatter mesmers appearing for every +1 I had against me for the longest time ever :anguished:

> >

> > That’s why I came here to speak to mesmer mains who might be able to acknowledge its OP cries in a fair way or provide suitable contras to that argument. Either way Anet has dished out its *balance* and we have to see if everything is okay once the dust settles.

>

> Chronobunker was nuts. Not only did it have the most survivability in the game it could also instagibb players with it's OP phantasms which it always got at least 4 of because of Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether.

 

I have to say, it's pretty odd hearing people refer to this build as "chronobunker". It's not really a *bunker* exactly, it's just got solid survivability tools. I remember the **real** chronobunker that actually just straight up busted PvP.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > > > > As a non-mesmer player, the only build I wanted nerfs for was the insta-burst 100-0 stuff. Instead you received these nerfs to evadable stuff which confused even me after previous nerfs that aimed at this before.

> > > > >

> > > > > Came on mesmer forum to see reaction and what you peeps thought.

> > > >

> > > > Chronobunker was far more cancerous than Greatsword Mirage. Can't even recall the last time I saw a Greatsword Mirage in platinum tier.

> > >

> > > Tbf I haven’t played PvP for a bit. I fell out of favour with PvP just as Bunker Mesmers became a mainstream thing. Ergo, I don’t have a full perspective on its power in matches. I just remember the portal shatter mesmers appearing for every +1 I had against me for the longest time ever :anguished:

> > >

> > > That’s why I came here to speak to mesmer mains who might be able to acknowledge its OP cries in a fair way or provide suitable contras to that argument. Either way Anet has dished out its *balance* and we have to see if everything is okay once the dust settles.

> >

> > Chronobunker was nuts. Not only did it have the most survivability in the game it could also instagibb players with it's OP phantasms which it always got at least 4 of because of Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether.

>

> I have to say, it's pretty odd hearing people refer to this build as "chronobunker". It's not really a *bunker* exactly, it's just got solid survivability tools. I remember the **real** chronobunker that actually just straight up busted PvP.

 

Actual role wise it should be called Chronoduelist but Chronobunker communicates how indestructible it was.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > > > > As a non-mesmer player, the only build I wanted nerfs for was the insta-burst 100-0 stuff. Instead you received these nerfs to evadable stuff which confused even me after previous nerfs that aimed at this before.

> > > > >

> > > > > Came on mesmer forum to see reaction and what you peeps thought.

> > > >

> > > > Chronobunker was far more cancerous than Greatsword Mirage. Can't even recall the last time I saw a Greatsword Mirage in platinum tier.

> > >

> > > Tbf I haven’t played PvP for a bit. I fell out of favour with PvP just as Bunker Mesmers became a mainstream thing. Ergo, I don’t have a full perspective on its power in matches. I just remember the portal shatter mesmers appearing for every +1 I had against me for the longest time ever :anguished:

> > >

> > > That’s why I came here to speak to mesmer mains who might be able to acknowledge its OP cries in a fair way or provide suitable contras to that argument. Either way Anet has dished out its *balance* and we have to see if everything is okay once the dust settles.

> >

> > Chronobunker was nuts. Not only did it have the most survivability in the game it could also instagibb players with it's OP phantasms which it always got at least 4 of because of Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether.

>

> I have to say, it's pretty odd hearing people refer to this build as "chronobunker". It's not really a *bunker* exactly, it's just got solid survivability tools. I remember the **real** chronobunker that actually just straight up busted PvP.

 

Hey that build was really hard to play, you had to try not to fall asleep, not be distracted by Netflix and if anyone yawned, wow you were in trouble.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > @"TotallyNotJazzie.1493" said:

> > > > > > As a non-mesmer player, the only build I wanted nerfs for was the insta-burst 100-0 stuff. Instead you received these nerfs to evadable stuff which confused even me after previous nerfs that aimed at this before.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Came on mesmer forum to see reaction and what you peeps thought.

> > > > >

> > > > > Chronobunker was far more cancerous than Greatsword Mirage. Can't even recall the last time I saw a Greatsword Mirage in platinum tier.

> > > >

> > > > Tbf I haven’t played PvP for a bit. I fell out of favour with PvP just as Bunker Mesmers became a mainstream thing. Ergo, I don’t have a full perspective on its power in matches. I just remember the portal shatter mesmers appearing for every +1 I had against me for the longest time ever :anguished:

> > > >

> > > > That’s why I came here to speak to mesmer mains who might be able to acknowledge its OP cries in a fair way or provide suitable contras to that argument. Either way Anet has dished out its *balance* and we have to see if everything is okay once the dust settles.

> > >

> > > Chronobunker was nuts. Not only did it have the most survivability in the game it could also instagibb players with it's OP phantasms which it always got at least 4 of because of Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether.

> >

> > I have to say, it's pretty odd hearing people refer to this build as "chronobunker". It's not really a *bunker* exactly, it's just got solid survivability tools. I remember the **real** chronobunker that actually just straight up busted PvP.

>

> Hey that build was really hard to play, you had to try not to fall asleep, not be distracted by Netflix and if anyone yawned, wow you were in trouble.

 

Hey now, that's not entirely fair. Staying alive in a 1v3 at least required nominal attention.

[zealex.9410]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Emtiarbi.3281" said:

> > > * Echo of Memory: Reduced the damage inflicted by the illusionary avenger by 50%.

> >

> > Why is this unsplit?

>

> I don't think it actually is? Avenger skill crits for 8k in casual PvE right now.

 

Should've been mentioned in the patch notes if it was split then.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Assic.2746" said:

> Those are some serious nerfs to chronomancer.

 

But that's the thing, these are nerfs to **base Mesmer**. Chrono is in fact hit **less** by many of these due to Chronophantasma and generaly spec role.

[Leodon.1564]

Why does Anet keep making things more complicated for themselves and players by having skills do different things depending on the game mode? Sure this is a short-term way to "balance" things but they must also realize this isn't a sustainable long-term approach.

 

Who is going to remember all the reasons that went into making these damage splits in the future and keep it all straight with all of the other skills that have damage splits? You would literally have to take into consideration every reason that went into these damage splits whenever you do a round of balancing in the future and you'd have to do it for every other older skill that behaves this way. Who's got time for that? Not to mention its an impossible task as these balance choices are made by individuals and another developer may see things differently in the future and end up reversing earlier design choices. This is a never-ending cycle of people doing shit that leads to nowhere.

 

Damn talk about an inefficient and short-sighted approach. I'm surprised Anet's developers haven't imploded yet.

[Coldtart.4785]

So the phantasm rework was such a positive change for the game that the build it enabled had to be smiter's booned. Perhaps Anet need to revert it and take another look at how to promote meaningful gameplay with phantasms.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Coldtart.4785" said:

> So the phantasm rework was such a positive change for the game that the build it enabled had to be smiter's booned. Perhaps Anet need to revert it and take another look at how to promote meaningful gameplay with phantasms.

 

What other option would there have been aside from simply scrapping them and putting the damage back into their weapon skills and simply having them spawn a clone?

[Coldtart.4785]

That's essentially what they _did_ do and it broke the game. What they needed was something to make it a real choice whether to try and keep a phantasm or shatter it; something like additional abilities they unlock if they stay alive for a certain time and special benefits for each type of phantasm when shattered.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Coldtart.4785" said:

> That's essentially what they _did_ do and it broke the game. What they needed was something to make it a real choice whether to try and keep a phantasm or shatter it; something like additional abilities they unlock if they stay alive for a certain time and special benefits for each type of phantasm when shattered.

 

No, that was what the problem with Mesmer fundamentally was, the illusion of a choice (no pun intended). The class mechanic was ignored nearly completely, phantasms were a constraining influence not on shatters, but on other weapon skills as well since clones and phantasms themselves were conflicting mechanics. Literally the previous state of phantasms was poisonous from a gameplay perspective. That solution would just make it even more extreme, phantasms would become just slightly better shatter fodder in sPvP/WvW and shatters would continue to gather dust in PvE.