Is It Just Me Or Do Other Classes Do Thief Better?

[samo.1054]

Currently, if you're going to play thief, you have to deeply realize that in a matchup against especially Mirages and Spellbreakers, you can make no mistakes, while both of them can do many mistakes against you. Going up against those two classes you definitely have to pull out a perfect play and even that might sometimes just not be enough.

 

Honestly I wouldn't expect that to change any time soon and in a way I even like it, because as soon as Thief becomes an "easy win" class like Mirage and Spellbreaker are right now, hundreds of weak people will flock back to Thief which means that I would have to swap my main, because I don't like playing FoTM classes :)

[Sylosi.6503]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > As example the complaining "A thief can just reset a fight if in trouble". This argument should be a non starter . When a thief resets a fight it because they are in trouble, be it low on health or on INI and at the same time the person they are facing has the upper hand. If a thief "always resetting a fight" then the thief is obviously coming out second best in those encounters. ...

> >

> > Depending on the context that is a perfectly justified complaint, in PvP being able to reset/disengage is fine because there is some degree of balance, because if I start losing on my thief and decide to disengage, then I am losing a capture point (normally), have just made ineffective use of my time with no contribution toward winning match, etc, essentially I am still getting punished for being outplayed / making mistake, even if I remain alive.

> >

> > However if I am roaming in WvW then the fact I can reset a fight in most cases is completely broken because unlike PvP I am not punished for disengaging / resetting a fight I think I am losing, so essentially am not being punished for my bad play, mistakes or simply the other player outplaying me, that breaks a very fundamental rule of game design, especially when it comes to PvP type play - 'risk vs reward', which is of course why anyone who wants ezmode for roaming in WvW goes with thief (or mes).

>

> wvw is basically a huge spvp map that works slower. if a thief keeps attacking you off an objective and resetting the fight, then move it to one and take it, flip a camp, a sentry or kill a dolyak, there you have the loss for the thief.

 

Not really, in PvP people care about winning and whether you as an individual decap a point or not can actually effect the outcome, in WvW that is not the case, furthermore fighting in an opposing camp is not generally a good idea when someone else is attacking you unless they are beyond terrible.

 

> another point is what people roam with. in sPvP you do what the role of your build is. in WvW people dont care about this and think they can roam on any build, this results obviously in complains about the more optimal builds for the task. i mean you dont hear me complaining that i cannot run infront of the zerg healling my allies and drowning them in boons while curing their conditions for example, thats just not what my thief is supposed to do so i dont try to do that. mesmer and thief are indeed among the best **solo** roamers with serveral builds suited for this depending on roamingstyle. you may call it ezmode or simply picking a build suited for the task.

 

Suited for the task or not, it still breaks the very fundamental rule of game design of 'risk vs reward', which makes it makes it very much ezmode if you want to solo roam.

 

> tldr: if roamers would see WvW as a competitive mode, then resetting a fight would matter as much as in spvp.

 

You have it the wrong way round, it is precisely because no one with an IQ out of double digits (who isn't a new player) sees WvW as competitive it why it matters, because basically players play for fights, so when a class can disengage as soon as they make a mistake / get outplayed, well that rather renders roaming as a futile exercise which is why it has been basically dead for a long time.

 

 

[Sylosi.6503]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > As example the complaining "A thief can just reset a fight if in trouble". This argument should be a non starter . When a thief resets a fight it because they are in trouble, be it low on health or on INI and at the same time the person they are facing has the upper hand. If a thief "always resetting a fight" then the thief is obviously coming out second best in those encounters. ...

> >

> > Depending on the context that is a perfectly justified complaint, in PvP being able to reset/disengage is fine because there is some degree of balance, because if I start losing on my thief and decide to disengage, then I am losing a capture point (normally), have just made ineffective use of my time with no contribution toward winning match, etc, essentially I am still getting punished for being outplayed / making mistake, even if I remain alive.

> >

> > However if I am roaming in WvW then the fact I can reset a fight in most cases is completely broken because unlike PvP I am not punished for disengaging / resetting a fight I think I am losing, so essentially am not being punished for my bad play, mistakes or simply the other player outplaying me, that breaks a very fundamental rule of game design, especially when it comes to PvP type play - 'risk vs reward', which is of course why anyone who wants ezmode for roaming in WvW goes with thief (or mes).

>

> Well I see it entirely differently. When I am one of my warrior builds facing a thief build that just resets a fight i KNOW I can beat him because he is the one that breaks off the fight. There is no need for me to down him. If he just keeps running off I go on my way. It sort of like those guys that fight right at castle or keep portals that dash out, get some licks in and then run back inside when in trouble. Why should that bother me? I just go elsewhere.

 

Regardless of whether you are fine with it, it still breaks the basic principle of game design of risk vs reward, if I engage your warrior on my thief (or mes) and you outplay me or I make a mistake I should be punished, me being able to disengage the vast majority of the time that happens is well trash tier PvP.

 

Furthermore in your example if he keeps running off then I'd assume you are significantly better player, but what happens when things are closer is the thief attacks screws up, disengages, tries again, this time he might succeed, so basically the thief gets a free pass and another try if he screws up / is outplayed (at least most of the time), whilst if the other player screws up / outplayed he gets punished, that is simply completely broken.

 

Which is one of the reasons roaming as been dead in this game for a long time and why the laughably termed "roaming" in this game nowadays mainly means duelling or ganking guys in going to zergs in their zerg builds.

 

> Now If YOU are on any build from warrior to thief or Necromancer to Ranger and are roaming solo when you run into 4 guys that try and chase you down , are you goind o "stand and fight" or use the tools available to you to break off that fight and try and get away? If the latter then why shoudl a thief be forced to stay in a fight he not going to win?

 

Well yes I agree it is using the tools, but that doesn't make it balanced, but then that is WvW for you, probably the lowest skilled, least PvP "PvP mode" I've ever played, because the game was designed and balanced around 5 guys fighting on points in conquest.

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > As example the complaining "A thief can just reset a fight if in trouble". This argument should be a non starter . When a thief resets a fight it because they are in trouble, be it low on health or on INI and at the same time the person they are facing has the upper hand. If a thief "always resetting a fight" then the thief is obviously coming out second best in those encounters. ...

> > >

> > > Depending on the context that is a perfectly justified complaint, in PvP being able to reset/disengage is fine because there is some degree of balance, because if I start losing on my thief and decide to disengage, then I am losing a capture point (normally), have just made ineffective use of my time with no contribution toward winning match, etc, essentially I am still getting punished for being outplayed / making mistake, even if I remain alive.

> > >

> > > However if I am roaming in WvW then the fact I can reset a fight in most cases is completely broken because unlike PvP I am not punished for disengaging / resetting a fight I think I am losing, so essentially am not being punished for my bad play, mistakes or simply the other player outplaying me, that breaks a very fundamental rule of game design, especially when it comes to PvP type play - 'risk vs reward', which is of course why anyone who wants ezmode for roaming in WvW goes with thief (or mes).

> >

> > wvw is basically a huge spvp map that works slower. if a thief keeps attacking you off an objective and resetting the fight, then move it to one and take it, flip a camp, a sentry or kill a dolyak, there you have the loss for the thief.

>

> Not really, in PvP people care about winning and whether you as an individual decap a point or not can actually effect the outcome, in WvW that is not the case, furthermore fighting in an opposing camp is not generally when someone else is attacking you is not generally a good idea unless they are beyond terrible.

>

> > another point is what people roam with. in sPvP you do what the role of your build is. in WvW people dont care about this and think they can roam on any build, this results obviously in complains about the more optimal builds for the task. i mean you dont hear me complaining that i cannot run infront of the zerg healling my allies and drowning them in boons while curing their conditions for example, thats just not what my thief is supposed to do so i dont try to do that. mesmer and thief are indeed among the best **solo** roamers with serveral builds suited for this depending on roamingstyle. you may call it ezmode or simply picking a build suited for the task.

>

> Suited for the task or not, it still breaks the very fundamental rule of game design of 'risk vs reward', which makes it makes it very much ezmode if you want to solo roam.

>

> > tldr: if roamers would see WvW as a competitive mode, then resetting a fight would matter as much as in spvp.

>

> You have it the wrong way round, it is precisely because no one with an IQ out of double digits (who isn't a new player) sees WvW as competitive it why it matters, because basically players play for fights, so when a class can disengage as soon as they make a mistake / get outplayed, well that rather renders roaming as a futile exercise which is why it has been basically dead for a long time.

>

>

 

ok if i join an spvp match and i dont care for any points, only for kills. then i can do the exact same i can in WvW. do i lose something if i escape? nope cause i dont care for winning the mode only the fight.

only because players do not see WvW as a competitive mode and rather fight then playing the mode, thats not anet job to balance accordingly.

and suited for the task is important, if i run a bunker build i wont kill anything in solo roaming but die everytime someone takes the time to fight. if i run a nekro i will die everytime i run into someone able to kite. if risk vs reward shall allways be applied i can aswell join with lvl 2 ele a staff in hand and should be really deadly as i can die to anything within a second, that just simply not what we got in WvW so i dont see a reason to apply it to one profession only.

 

[Sylosi.6503]

 

delete....

 

[Sylosi.6503]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> only because players do not see WvW as a competitive mode and rather fight then playing the mode, thats not anet job to balance accordingly.

 

The problem being Anet don't balance or design for WvW in any meaningful way whatsoever,, they don't do their job in regard to WvW, which is precisely why you have things like thief / mes that break very fundamental game design rules like risk vs reward, because this game was designed and balanced around PvP (and since HoT also PvE raids).

 

> .... that just simply not what we got in WvW so i dont see a reason to apply it to one profession only.

 

It doesn't apply to one profession only, class design/balance in WvW is a complete joke through every aspect, 50 man squads with 25 scourges in, etc, but we aren't talking about every profession, we are in the thief forum, and I replied to the notion of "being able to reset a fight nearly at will is fine", which it clearly isn't and is one of the reasons roaming has been basically dead in this game for a long time. (and the same applies to mirage, and druid before the nerfs, and so on)

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > only because players do not see WvW as a competitive mode and rather fight then playing the mode, thats not anet job to balance accordingly.

>

> The problem being Anet don't balance or design for WvW in any meaningful way whatsoever,, they don't do their job in regard to WvW, which is precisely why you have things like thief / mes that break very fundamental game design rules like risk vs reward, because this game was designed and balanced around PvP (and since HoT also PvE raids).

>

> > .... that just simply not what we got in WvW so i dont see a reason to apply it to one profession only.

>

> It doesn't apply to one profession only, class design/balance in WvW is a complete joke through every aspect, 50 man squads with 25 scourges in, etc, but we aren't talking about every profession, we are in the thief forum, and I replied to the notion of "being able to reset a fight nearly at will is fine", which it clearly isn't and is one of the reasons roaming has been basically dead in this game for a long time. (and the same applies to mirage, and druid before the nerfs, and so on)

>

>

see if classes were balanced in regards to risk vs reward during the fight, there would be no need for a thief to reset.

we are in the thieves forum yes, tho if you only point on one class at a time while asking for nerfs then it implies that this aspect is too strong in the current state of the game, if you want it as a part of a giant balance patch with a lot of changes to all classes, then it is out of context.

right now in the current state of game i dont see a reason to just gut thieves escape potential without fundamental changes to all professions.

 

and again there is no risk vs reward anywhere in gw2, so changes based on that must come in a giant balance patch for all classes.

[Sylosi.6503]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > only because players do not see WvW as a competitive mode and rather fight then playing the mode, thats not anet job to balance accordingly.

> >

> > The problem being Anet don't balance or design for WvW in any meaningful way whatsoever,, they don't do their job in regard to WvW, which is precisely why you have things like thief / mes that break very fundamental game design rules like risk vs reward, because this game was designed and balanced around PvP (and since HoT also PvE raids).

> >

> > > .... that just simply not what we got in WvW so i dont see a reason to apply it to one profession only.

> >

> > It doesn't apply to one profession only, class design/balance in WvW is a complete joke through every aspect, 50 man squads with 25 scourges in, etc, but we aren't talking about every profession, we are in the thief forum, and I replied to the notion of "being able to reset a fight nearly at will is fine", which it clearly isn't and is one of the reasons roaming has been basically dead in this game for a long time. (and the same applies to mirage, and druid before the nerfs, and so on)

> >

> >

> see if classes were balanced in regards to risk vs reward during the fight, there would be no need for a thief to reset.

 

There is no need to reset fullstop (at least in a 1v1 in WvW), real PvP players don't start a 1v1 then run if they think they might lose, granted real PvP players are in short supply in game like GW2.

 

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> we are in the thieves forum yes, tho if you only point on one class at a time while asking for nerfs then it implies that this aspect is too strong in the current state of the game, if you want it as a part of a giant balance patch with a lot of changes to all classes, then it is out of context.

 

I haven't asked for any nerfs, I have zero expectations of any meaningful balance changes to any class in WvW and frankly I barely play the game any more.

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > only because players do not see WvW as a competitive mode and rather fight then playing the mode, thats not anet job to balance accordingly.

> > >

> > > The problem being Anet don't balance or design for WvW in any meaningful way whatsoever,, they don't do their job in regard to WvW, which is precisely why you have things like thief / mes that break very fundamental game design rules like risk vs reward, because this game was designed and balanced around PvP (and since HoT also PvE raids).

> > >

> > > > .... that just simply not what we got in WvW so i dont see a reason to apply it to one profession only.

> > >

> > > It doesn't apply to one profession only, class design/balance in WvW is a complete joke through every aspect, 50 man squads with 25 scourges in, etc, but we aren't talking about every profession, we are in the thief forum, and I replied to the notion of "being able to reset a fight nearly at will is fine", which it clearly isn't and is one of the reasons roaming has been basically dead in this game for a long time. (and the same applies to mirage, and druid before the nerfs, and so on)

> > >

> > >

> > see if classes were balanced in regards to risk vs reward during the fight, there would be no need for a thief to reset.

>

> There is no need to reset fullstop (at least in a 1v1 in WvW), real PvP players don't start a 1v1 then run.

>

actual pvp players that fight 1 vs 1 , play games balanced around 1 vs 1 not gw2.

 

 

 

[Dralor.3701]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > only because players do not see WvW as a competitive mode and rather fight then playing the mode, thats not anet job to balance accordingly.

> > > >

> > > > The problem being Anet don't balance or design for WvW in any meaningful way whatsoever,, they don't do their job in regard to WvW, which is precisely why you have things like thief / mes that break very fundamental game design rules like risk vs reward, because this game was designed and balanced around PvP (and since HoT also PvE raids).

> > > >

> > > > > .... that just simply not what we got in WvW so i dont see a reason to apply it to one profession only.

> > > >

> > > > It doesn't apply to one profession only, class design/balance in WvW is a complete joke through every aspect, 50 man squads with 25 scourges in, etc, but we aren't talking about every profession, we are in the thief forum, and I replied to the notion of "being able to reset a fight nearly at will is fine", which it clearly isn't and is one of the reasons roaming has been basically dead in this game for a long time. (and the same applies to mirage, and druid before the nerfs, and so on)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > see if classes were balanced in regards to risk vs reward during the fight, there would be no need for a thief to reset.

> >

> > There is no need to reset fullstop (at least in a 1v1 in WvW), real PvP players don't start a 1v1 then run.

> >

> actual pvp players that fight 1 vs 1 , play games balanced around 1 vs 1 not gw2.

>

>

>

 

I mean... that is a pretty silly thing to say. If people here weren’t competitive and passionate about spvp/WvW we would be having half of these discussions.

[omgdracula.6345]

Can't we all just get along?

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > > only because players do not see WvW as a competitive mode and rather fight then playing the mode, thats not anet job to balance accordingly.

> > > > >

> > > > > The problem being Anet don't balance or design for WvW in any meaningful way whatsoever,, they don't do their job in regard to WvW, which is precisely why you have things like thief / mes that break very fundamental game design rules like risk vs reward, because this game was designed and balanced around PvP (and since HoT also PvE raids).

> > > > >

> > > > > > .... that just simply not what we got in WvW so i dont see a reason to apply it to one profession only.

> > > > >

> > > > > It doesn't apply to one profession only, class design/balance in WvW is a complete joke through every aspect, 50 man squads with 25 scourges in, etc, but we aren't talking about every profession, we are in the thief forum, and I replied to the notion of "being able to reset a fight nearly at will is fine", which it clearly isn't and is one of the reasons roaming has been basically dead in this game for a long time. (and the same applies to mirage, and druid before the nerfs, and so on)

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > see if classes were balanced in regards to risk vs reward during the fight, there would be no need for a thief to reset.

> > >

> > > There is no need to reset fullstop (at least in a 1v1 in WvW), real PvP players don't start a 1v1 then run.

> > >

> > actual pvp players that fight 1 vs 1 , play games balanced around 1 vs 1 not gw2.

> >

> >

> >

>

> I mean... that is a pretty silly thing to say. If people here weren’t competitive and passionate about spvp/WvW we would be having half of these discussions.

 

they are but both modes are not 1 vs 1 modes. many discussions conserning WvW are because people play the mode but do not care about the mode. they care for example about large fights and bags but not to win the match, just for the loot / fun

[Dralor.3701]

Agreed they aren’t 1v1 modes but it is still a pretty big part of both. I’ve seen some thief/mes carry spvp pretty hard just by sheer mobility and able to beat the side node.

 

To varying degrees they can also be effective in WvW. Thief obviously less so than the Mesmer who can spike/stomp someone in the middle of a zerg. Roaming has always been a pretty big thing in RvR games.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Dralor.3701" said:

> Agreed they aren’t 1v1 modes but it is still a pretty big part of both. I’ve seen some thief/mes carry spvp pretty hard just by sheer mobility and able to beat the side node.

>

> To varying degrees they can also be effective in WvW. Thief obviously less so than the Mesmer who can spike/stomp someone in the middle of a zerg. Roaming has always been a pretty big thing in RvR games.

 

roaming fights are closer to ganking then actual 1 vs 1 duels people do at certain locations, this makes thief and mesmer so good for solo roaming as they got high burst damage and good escape potential and with pre stealth the element of suprise.

but do all classes have to be good at every role? i still cant support my blob with heals, boons, reflects, cleanses etc on my thief.

[Dralor.3701]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > Agreed they aren’t 1v1 modes but it is still a pretty big part of both. I’ve seen some thief/mes carry spvp pretty hard just by sheer mobility and able to beat the side node.

> >

> > To varying degrees they can also be effective in WvW. Thief obviously less so than the Mesmer who can spike/stomp someone in the middle of a zerg. Roaming has always been a pretty big thing in RvR games.

>

> roaming fights are closer to ganking then actual 1 vs 1 duels people do at certain locations, this makes thief and mesmer so good for solo roaming as they got high burst damage and good escape potential and with pre stealth the element of suprise.

> but do all classes have to be good at every role? i still cant support my blob with heals, boons, reflects, cleanses etc on my thief.

 

Well back to OP, currently I don’t think thief does anything that Mesmer doesn’t do better.

 

Every class should at least be viable (not best) in every area of the game, thief needs some support function in a blob.

[kash.9213]

> @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > > Agreed they aren’t 1v1 modes but it is still a pretty big part of both. I’ve seen some thief/mes carry spvp pretty hard just by sheer mobility and able to beat the side node.

> > >

> > > To varying degrees they can also be effective in WvW. Thief obviously less so than the Mesmer who can spike/stomp someone in the middle of a zerg. Roaming has always been a pretty big thing in RvR games.

> >

> > roaming fights are closer to ganking then actual 1 vs 1 duels people do at certain locations, this makes thief and mesmer so good for solo roaming as they got high burst damage and good escape potential and with pre stealth the element of suprise.

> > but do all classes have to be good at every role? i still cant support my blob with heals, boons, reflects, cleanses etc on my thief.

>

> Well back to OP, currently I don’t think thief does anything that Mesmer doesn’t do better.

>

> Every class should at least be viable (not best) in every area of the game, thief needs some support function in a blob.

 

Improv, Peripheral Vision, and One in the Chamber were pretty good for squad play. Somewhere along the line it made sense to the devs to make the sniper class the new daredevil and to scrap a very fun and useful set of traits for when you wanted to build for group momentum.

[zinkz.7045]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> but do all classes have to be good at every role? i still cant support my blob with heals, boons, reflects, cleanses etc on my thief.

 

A thief being pretty useless in zergs is not justification for having some broken OP aspects as a roamer, a class (or two in the case of GW2) being most of the time able to run from any fight they think they might lose is simply terrible game design, which has been detrimental to the health of the game (at least WvW). And yes that goes for other things to, for instance necros being pretty crappy roamers does not in any way justify how broken OP they are in zergs.

 

But then that is the issue, there is no design, game was built around their e-sport dream, so for the most part the classes and combat were built around that, then balanced virtually entirely around that for three years, then when they added raids they started balancing around that also, WvW just gets the odd crumb, there is no real design, it is just whatever mess is left over after they've balanced things for PvP/raids.

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > but do all classes have to be good at every role? i still cant support my blob with heals, boons, reflects, cleanses etc on my thief.

>

> A thief being pretty useless in zergs is not justification for having some broken OP aspects as a roamer, a class (or two in the case of GW2) being most of the time able to run from any fight they think they might lose is simply terrible game design, which has been detrimental to the health of the game (at least WvW). And yes that goes for other things to, for instance necros being pretty crappy roamers does not in any way justify how broken OP they are in zergs.

>

> But then that is the issue, there is no design, game was built around their e-sport dream, so for the most part the classes and combat were built around that, then balanced virtually entirely around that for three years, then when they added raids they started balancing around that also, WvW just gets the odd crumb, there is no real design, it is just whatever mess is left over after they've balanced things for PvP/raids.

>

>

 

if you roam solo and dont want to avoid every fight, then you need the potential to escape larger groups because that is what you will run in mostly. if you can escape a group then with the same build you can escape a single opponent. i think the bigger issue for solo roaming was allways roaming(ganking) groups not the build of an other solo roamer.

is thief being good in roaming a justification for how bad they are in zergs?

[zinkz.7045]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > but do all classes have to be good at every role? i still cant support my blob with heals, boons, reflects, cleanses etc on my thief.

> >

> > A thief being pretty useless in zergs is not justification for having some broken OP aspects as a roamer, a class (or two in the case of GW2) being most of the time able to run from any fight they think they might lose is simply terrible game design, which has been detrimental to the health of the game (at least WvW). And yes that goes for other things to, for instance necros being pretty crappy roamers does not in any way justify how broken OP they are in zergs.

> >

> > But then that is the issue, there is no design, game was built around their e-sport dream, so for the most part the classes and combat were built around that, then balanced virtually entirely around that for three years, then when they added raids they started balancing around that also, WvW just gets the odd crumb, there is no real design, it is just whatever mess is left over after they've balanced things for PvP/raids.

> >

> >

>

> if you roam solo and dont want to avoid every fight, then you need the potential to escape larger groups because that is what you will run in mostly. if you can escape a group then with the same build you can escape a single opponent. i think the bigger issue for solo roaming was allways roaming(ganking) groups not the build of an other solo roamer.

 

The fact you think that you should be able to pick and choose every fight is somehow balanced or required in games to be a roamer, speaks volumes.

 

> is thief being good in roaming a justification for how bad they are in zergs?

 

No, but then I am not sure why you keep going on about justification, because justification would imply there is a level of intended design and balance of WvW that simply does not exist, the state of classes in WvW is simply the mess that is left over when they have balanced for PvP/raids, which results in a lot of skilless cheese, huge class imbalances and a lot of broken OP things that don't belong in any even half decent PvP mode.

 

But don't worry that is okay because WvW is thriving on that, oh wait...

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > but do all classes have to be good at every role? i still cant support my blob with heals, boons, reflects, cleanses etc on my thief.

> > >

> > > A thief being pretty useless in zergs is not justification for having some broken OP aspects as a roamer, a class (or two in the case of GW2) being most of the time able to run from any fight they think they might lose is simply terrible game design, which has been detrimental to the health of the game (at least WvW). And yes that goes for other things to, for instance necros being pretty crappy roamers does not in any way justify how broken OP they are in zergs.

> > >

> > > But then that is the issue, there is no design, game was built around their e-sport dream, so for the most part the classes and combat were built around that, then balanced virtually entirely around that for three years, then when they added raids they started balancing around that also, WvW just gets the odd crumb, there is no real design, it is just whatever mess is left over after they've balanced things for PvP/raids.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > if you roam solo and dont want to avoid every fight, then you need the potential to escape larger groups because that is what you will run in mostly. if you can escape a group then with the same build you can escape a single opponent. i think the bigger issue for solo roaming was allways roaming(ganking) groups not the build of an other solo roamer.

>

> The fact you think that you should be able to pick and choose every fight is somehow balanced or required in games to be a roamer, speaks volumes.

>

i didnt say you need to be able to pick and choose fights, but it should not be the case that most of the encounters you have are autoloose because of numbers. there is nothing that helps people to fight outnumbered, so you either need tools to avoid such fights were there is 0 chance to gain anything or there is simply no reason to roam alone as it is inefficient. in wich case there would be absolutly 0 reason to complain about a build of someone in a 1 vs 1 scenario, because noone in his right mind would be 1 vs X.

> > is thief being good in roaming a justification for how bad they are in zergs?

>

> No, but then I am not sure why you keep going on about justification, because justification would imply there is a level of intended design and balance of WvW that simply does not exist, the state of classes in WvW is simply the mess that is left over when they have balanced for PvP/raids, which results in a lot of skilless cheese, huge class imbalances and a lot of broken OP things that don't belong in any even half decent PvP mode.

>

> But don't worry that is okay because WvW is thriving on that, oh wait...

>

 

you are the one starting with justification that thieves shouldnt be that strong in roaming only because they dont have a spot in large scale. i barely said each class has different strength and weaknesses and should be played accordingly.

[Oogabooga.3812]

It's not just warrior and Mesmer that look like thieves. The sword/dagger weaver looks like sword/dagger thief with its teleporting, high condition cleansing, medium damaging, vigor upkeeping, skill-dodging, decent mobility fighting style. Differences being no stealth and no boon strip, but many aoe fields plus aoe cc plus healing access plus stability.

[dDuff.3860]

Regarding OP question. From my POV it is just you.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> i didnt say you need to be able to pick and choose fights, but it should not be the case that most of the encounters you have are autoloose because of numbers. there is nothing that helps people to fight outnumbered, so you either need tools to avoid such fights were there is 0 chance to gain anything or there is simply no reason to roam alone as it is inefficient.

 

Daredevil and Core thief were actually pretty decent at fighting outnumbered battles. 1vMulti usually requires the Thief to be very good at repositioning and forcefully repositioning players. Caltrops, needle traps, Scorpion Wire, DareDevil's block and kick, shadow steps. etc. This was so you can take them on one at a time.

 

Mind you, it's really stressful and obviously not an easy fight to begin with. And the keyword here was "were". This was back when our damage and ability to break out of soft CC was pretty much unchallenged which made us dangerous in 1v1s, and scary when we plus one. But that apparently pissed players off enough that Anet felt the need to nerf thief rather than letting them figure out that we have a lot of weaknesses that thief players have to compensate for or watch out for.

 

They even advertised thief as a monster in PvP that you do not want to fight alone.

 

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> I was playing pvp last night with a buddy we are both in gold 3 on the cusp of plat 1. During a game I was just watching mesmers and rangers and just other classes seem to be doing thief better than thief itself. Every class being self sufficient. Able to survive, deal damage, etc. Then I looked at my thief who has pretty much been put into a +1 role that really isn't needed since mesmers are just straight up better.

>

> I watched a mesmer weave in and out of stealth and could not help but go man, they do that with just skills, and here I am the class archetype of attacking from the shadows and I have to blow a 40 second cooldown to gain stealth or most of my initiative.

>

> We need help.

 

You're not wrong. It's a common complaint from the Thief community, and one that Anet has never touched on.

 

I've pretty much only played thief since the games Launch. It's the only spec that I personally find fun. But now we're hitting a point where other professions are practically doing things much more efficiently than us, and don't suffer anywhere near the same drawbacks we do. And it hasn't been addressed. Why -ARE- we playing thief when it's barely rewarding anymore.

 

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" I really WISH anet would answer the questions about what their Design goals or intent for thief is. Because I'm not seeing any hints of it anymore.

[omgdracula.6345]

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" I think we would all like to hear ANY goals you have to really bring thief into line at being....well a thief.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > i didnt say you need to be able to pick and choose fights, but it should not be the case that most of the encounters you have are autoloose because of numbers. there is nothing that helps people to fight outnumbered, so you either need tools to avoid such fights were there is 0 chance to gain anything or there is simply no reason to roam alone as it is inefficient.

>

> Daredevil and Core thief were actually pretty decent at fighting outnumbered battles. 1vMulti usually requires the Thief to be very good at repositioning and forcefully repositioning players. Caltrops, needle traps, Scorpion Wire, DareDevil's block and kick, shadow steps. etc. This was so you can take them on one at a time.

>

> Mind you, it's really stressful and obviously not an easy fight to begin with. And the keyword here was "were". This was back when our damage and ability to break out of soft CC was pretty much unchallenged which made us dangerous in 1v1s, and scary when we plus one. But that apparently pissed players off enough that Anet felt the need to nerf thief rather than letting them figure out that we have a lot of weaknesses that thief players have to compensate for or watch out for.

>

> They even advertised thief as a monster in PvP that you do not want to fight alone.

 

i know they were able to but with power creep and the amount of spamm many builds got alot harder to kite then before. all i am saying is that if you spot a group at a distant, you should have a chance to escape with a solo roaming build. because this group might not be all noobs or classes like nekro and warrior that you can kite rather easily. you can do this by either putting more mobility in your build then average group roaming builds so you can outrun the group or split them by movement speed or you use stealth and just walk past. now if you run a build that can escape a group, it is likely they can escape a single person, right? the main complain was that thief can escape so well and i think they need this escape potential in WvW roaming because of groups, even if that is annoying in fighting a thief 1 vs 1. thief would need a complete rework if people want thief no longer to escape or kite them all the fight, because you basically have to not get hit as a thief no matter if you play with superior mobility, tons of evades or stealth. but then again they could just make a new class and delete thief, thats how much would have to be done.