Do Mesmer need more nerfs?

[Allarius.5670]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Allarius.5670" said:

> > I think the primary issue with Mesmer in a general sense is their ability to cast multiple effects in very nearly the same packet of time. This stems from the instant cast nature of shatters. On their own, shatters have moderately useful effects, but through traits can be tailored to become incredibly powerful.

> >

> > That is the hallmark of the Mesmer's playstyle, and I wouldn't want to take that away. However, as the underpinning of what makes Mesmer difficult to balance time and time again, I would suggest it needs a review. The goal wouldn't be to gut the Mesmer, but to open its rotations to allow more clear lines of counterpressure regardless of build or elite specialization.

> >

> > These would not be large cast times, just long enough to provide more accessible counterplay to the population at all levels of gameplay. For example, Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration as 0.25-0.5 sec, Diversion as 0.25 sec, and Distortion and Continuum Split remain instant cast.

>

> Okay, but only if you remove travel time from clones.

 

The suggestion was intended to mostly be self encapsulated to address overperformance and consistent issues with balance for the profession. A "give and take suggestion" to maintain (near) current performance levels, or otherwise mitigate/undercut the intent of the change, would not be fruitful or have the intended goal.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

[urgent need of merge plz]

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Levijeh.1467" said:

> Condi mirage is fine wth are you talking about xD

>

> https://clips.twitch.tv/FreezingExcitedHeronKappa

 

Good grief...

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Allarius.5670" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Allarius.5670" said:

> > > I think the primary issue with Mesmer in a general sense is their ability to cast multiple effects in very nearly the same packet of time. This stems from the instant cast nature of shatters. On their own, shatters have moderately useful effects, but through traits can be tailored to become incredibly powerful.

> > >

> > > That is the hallmark of the Mesmer's playstyle, and I wouldn't want to take that away. However, as the underpinning of what makes Mesmer difficult to balance time and time again, I would suggest it needs a review. The goal wouldn't be to gut the Mesmer, but to open its rotations to allow more clear lines of counterpressure regardless of build or elite specialization.

> > >

> > > These would not be large cast times, just long enough to provide more accessible counterplay to the population at all levels of gameplay. For example, Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration as 0.25-0.5 sec, Diversion as 0.25 sec, and Distortion and Continuum Split remain instant cast.

> >

> > Okay, but only if you remove travel time from clones.

>

> The suggestion was intended to mostly be self encapsulated to address overperformance and consistent issues with balance for the profession. A "give and take suggestion" to maintain (near) current performance levels, or otherwise mitigate/undercut the intent of the change, would not be fruitful or have the intended goal.

 

The travel time is the counterplay, a mesmer closing in to spawn clones next to you is the counterplay. The issue is the large amount of synergy between Blinding Dissipation and Ineptitude making it possible to shut out your opponents attacks and simultaneously punish them for making them making it difficult to apply any counterpressure.

[Allarius.5670]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Allarius.5670" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > @"Allarius.5670" said:

> > > > I think the primary issue with Mesmer in a general sense is their ability to cast multiple effects in very nearly the same packet of time. This stems from the instant cast nature of shatters. On their own, shatters have moderately useful effects, but through traits can be tailored to become incredibly powerful.

> > > >

> > > > That is the hallmark of the Mesmer's playstyle, and I wouldn't want to take that away. However, as the underpinning of what makes Mesmer difficult to balance time and time again, I would suggest it needs a review. The goal wouldn't be to gut the Mesmer, but to open its rotations to allow more clear lines of counterpressure regardless of build or elite specialization.

> > > >

> > > > These would not be large cast times, just long enough to provide more accessible counterplay to the population at all levels of gameplay. For example, Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration as 0.25-0.5 sec, Diversion as 0.25 sec, and Distortion and Continuum Split remain instant cast.

> > >

> > > Okay, but only if you remove travel time from clones.

> >

> > The suggestion was intended to mostly be self encapsulated to address overperformance and consistent issues with balance for the profession. A "give and take suggestion" to maintain (near) current performance levels, or otherwise mitigate/undercut the intent of the change, would not be fruitful or have the intended goal.

>

> The travel time is the counterplay, a mesmer closing in to spawn clones next to you is the counterplay. The issue is the large amount of synergy between Blinding Dissipation and Ineptitude making it possible to shut out your opponents attacks and simultaneously punish them for making them making it difficult to apply any counterpressure.

 

Exactly, but not limited to the synergy between Blinding Dissipation and Ineptitude. Instant cast shatters combined with Blinding Dissipation allow the Mesmer to cover for opposing counterpressure on any potential skill cast, offensive or defensive, just like Mirage Cloak. Stability on shatter does much the same thing for tankier builds, albeit probably a bit less so since the nerf.

 

Without these traits you can still achieve power and condition bursts while playing defensively via Blurred Frenzy, Echo of Memory/Deja Vu, etc. It's hallmark to the Mesmer playstyle and very characteristic of the profession. Considering the arsenal available to Mesmer, it seems reasonable to break up the multi-tasking to allow more room for counterplay and enforce more careful use and timing of skills.

[Kovu.7560]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

Too bad they nerfed it so far into the ground at this point that I'm seeing more core rangers than Druids running around. I hope they can address some of the concerns people have with mirage without hammering it into the ground.

 

~ Kovu

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

> Too bad they nerfed it so far into the ground at this point that I'm seeing more core rangers than Druids running around. I hope they can address some of the concerns people have with mirage without hammering it into the ground.

>

> ~ Kovu

 

1. Prevent mirages from dodging while cc'd

2. Remove stunbreak from EM

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > Dodge while stunned is OP? You realize that when its done this way, it removed the stunned but gives them a penalty to endurance regeneration right?

> > >

> > > I dont run it (Elusive Mind) due to the penalty as the con outweighs the bonus imo, however its far from OP. Pre nerf I would agree was unbalanced for sure.

> >

> > Does the exhaustion stop Energy sigil regains or Adventurer runes or "To the Limit" from Warrior?

>

> Iirc warrior doesnt have exhaustion, therefore that point is moot

 

The skill itself refills allies endurance by 100%, not that the warrior has exhaustion lmao....

 

I think you read that wrong or didn't know what "To the limit" does but any how, very fun to kill people while being invulnerable for 8+ seconds, good tanking potential but probably won't work in a competitive environment, just some unranked fun.

 

 

 

[Math.5123]

> @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

> Too bad they nerfed it so far into the ground at this point that I'm seeing more core rangers than Druids running around. I hope they can address some of the concerns people have with mirage without hammering it into the ground.

>

> ~ Kovu

 

Welcome to that guard life. I'd love to play some DH, but hey.

[Sampson.2403]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

> > Too bad they nerfed it so far into the ground at this point that I'm seeing more core rangers than Druids running around. I hope they can address some of the concerns people have with mirage without hammering it into the ground.

> >

> > ~ Kovu

>

> 1. Prevent mirages from dodging while cc'd

> 2. Remove stunbreak from EM

 

I play mirage and honestly this is probably a fair fix. It's not like mirage will be ruined without stunbreak on dodge since we can still cover our burst with dodging.

 

I would like to see the stune break removal replaced with something else tho.

[Math.5123]

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

> > > Too bad they nerfed it so far into the ground at this point that I'm seeing more core rangers than Druids running around. I hope they can address some of the concerns people have with mirage without hammering it into the ground.

> > >

> > > ~ Kovu

> >

> > 1. Prevent mirages from dodging while cc'd

> > 2. Remove stunbreak from EM

>

> I play mirage and honestly this is probably a fair fix. It's not like mirage will be ruined without stunbreak on dodge since we can still cover our burst with dodging.

>

> I would like to see the stune break removal replaced with something else tho.

 

Like a 3 second reveal?

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

More nerfs are needed for mesmer.

[Leodon.1564]

I think they are still breathing...one more kick should do it.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

> > Too bad they nerfed it so far into the ground at this point that I'm seeing more core rangers than Druids running around. I hope they can address some of the concerns people have with mirage without hammering it into the ground.

> >

> > ~ Kovu

>

> Welcome to that guard life. I'd love to play some DH, but hey.

 

I read this comment and was wondering what's wrong with DH so I rolled one last night for some fun, went 5 traps, lonbow and hammer.....

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQJATSn8cCVdiddCOdCkdilBiyKAq22MrAXwGU+6z+xH-jJxQABAs/wslBI/SAY6TAAA

 

True shot hits for 11k, mightly blow spam is 6-8k a hit.... Traps nuked everyone that stepped on them... Pulling 20+ kills and 1-2 deaths a game.....

Was even laying traps at random choke points like in the door ways of Nhifel.... No one survived those ones, would just see random dead bodies laying around...

Proceeded to lay these traps on the drop point where people leave spawn... Hit a point where players raged in map chat about try harding and they left game.

 

Not sure what's wrong with trap guard but it was surprisingly fun... More viable than what they used to be, maybe it's because everyone is running DPS ammies now and not as much passive sustain.

[Math.5123]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

> > > Too bad they nerfed it so far into the ground at this point that I'm seeing more core rangers than Druids running around. I hope they can address some of the concerns people have with mirage without hammering it into the ground.

> > >

> > > ~ Kovu

> >

> > Welcome to that guard life. I'd love to play some DH, but hey.

>

> I read this comment and was wondering what's wrong with DH so I rolled one last night for some fun, went 5 traps, lonbow and hammer.....

>

> True shot hits for 11k, mightly blow spam is 6-8k a hit.... Traps nuked everyone that stepped on them... Pulling 20+ kills and 1-2 deaths a game.....

>

> Not sure what's wrong with trap guard?

 

The problem with that build is that you can't survive for longer than 3 seconds. Guardians are in the same boat as eles are. We have always been pigeon holes into stacking meditations with valor and virtues for any form of stability.

Dropping radiance for DH just isn't worth it, considering damage on longbow is horrible. The only spike damage a DH does is pulling and pushing through test of faith, which isn't viable anymore because everything has permanent stability.

 

True shot is barely worth dodging anymore since the damage reduction. You can't even safe stomp with F3 anymore because the duration is too low.

 

DH on release was toxic towards less experienced players and deserved toning down, I'll buy that. But they can't nerf it with the intent to not make nodes a spamfest, then start designing scourge and leave it in the game for this long.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

> > > > Too bad they nerfed it so far into the ground at this point that I'm seeing more core rangers than Druids running around. I hope they can address some of the concerns people have with mirage without hammering it into the ground.

> > > >

> > > > ~ Kovu

> > >

> > > Welcome to that guard life. I'd love to play some DH, but hey.

> >

> > I read this comment and was wondering what's wrong with DH so I rolled one last night for some fun, went 5 traps, lonbow and hammer.....

> >

> > True shot hits for 11k, mightly blow spam is 6-8k a hit.... Traps nuked everyone that stepped on them... Pulling 20+ kills and 1-2 deaths a game.....

> >

> > Not sure what's wrong with trap guard?

>

> The problem with that build is that you can't survive for longer than 3 seconds. Guardians are in the same boat as eles are. We have always been pigeon holes into stacking meditations with valor and virtues for any form of stability.

> Dropping radiance for DH just isn't worth it, considering damage on longbow is horrible. The only spike damage a DH does is pulling and pushing through test of faith, which isn't viable anymore because everything has permanent stability.

>

> True shot is barely worth dodging anymore since the damage reduction. You can't even safe stomp with F3 anymore because the duration is too low.

>

> DH on release was toxic towards less experienced players and deserved toning down, I'll buy that. But they can't nerf it with the intent to not make nodes a spamfest, then start designing scourge and leave it in the game for this long.

 

Sorry about my Edit man, you were quick to respond.

 

I posted the build, tonnes of damage amplification so your longbow 2 skill should hit for 11k or more on a thief, higher on lighter classes, Longbow 5 hits AoE for about 7k so just on 2 skills you already downed most players (without even using traps or the whole pull through traps to banish trick).... You can drop the invuln stacking trap for more Stab traps but that invul trap is 20% more damage, also the virtue when traited gives stab if you're worried about it.

 

As for living longer than 3s, the trick is to kill them asap... I couldn't survive any sustained pressure but what I could do was down 2-3 people and then proceed to pew pew them with longbow, between that and laying traps on overly used paths was my success.

 

I wreckon you should try the build I posted for 3 games and get a feel for it...

[FtoPScrub.5476]

Taking away EM not enough because they can still dodge the damage while CC'd. Remove EM & remove dodge while hard CC'd then it might not be such a monkey 1v1 spec.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> Taking away EM not enough because they can still dodge the damage while CC'd. Remove EM & remove dodge while hard CC'd then it might not be such a monkey 1v1 spec.

 

Alternatively, learn to delay your burst after you CC against a Mirage instead of playing into the reflex dodge.

[Kondor.2904]

Can someone link any footage where Misha or Frostball facerolls every other decent player on meta condi mirage 1v1 ? For research purposes, of course.

[Daishi.6027]

Can we all agree that it is specifically Condi Mirage is the problem?

 

Power mirage is strong but is fair if you have any understanding of the class and how to fight it. Yes mirage cloak is strong but gutting a core part of the spec, like many keep advocating for, will kill diversity when unlike condi that has a longer stream of effective pressure, power has a lot less options and are readable with more than enough counterplay if you have auto target off and know when to not attack.

 

In regards to instantcast apart from phase retreat and active blocks, all weapon skills include cast times.

Really other than stun breaker utilities it’s really only shatters and mantras that are insta cast.

 

I am also down with changing EM more.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > Taking away EM not enough because they can still dodge the damage while CC'd. Remove EM & remove dodge while hard CC'd then it might not be such a monkey 1v1 spec.

>

> Alternatively, learn to delay your burst after you CC against a Mirage instead of playing into the reflex dodge.

 

Alternatively, Mirages should have to dodge CC instead of getting carried by Mirage Cloak. No Mirage with half a brain will reflex dodge when they just need to wait for the burst animation. A spec that has one of the highest if not the highest amount active defenses through evades, blinds, and distort should expect consequences when they fail to properly use them.

[apharma.3741]

> @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > Taking away EM not enough because they can still dodge the damage while CC'd. Remove EM & remove dodge while hard CC'd then it might not be such a monkey 1v1 spec.

> >

> > Alternatively, learn to delay your burst after you CC against a Mirage instead of playing into the reflex dodge.

>

> Alternatively, Mirages should have to dodge CC instead of getting carried by Mirage Cloak. No Mirage with half a brain will reflex dodge when they just need to wait for the burst animation. A spec that has one of the highest if not the highest amount active defenses through evades, blinds, and distort should expect consequences when they fail to properly use them.

 

Which is exactly why I and many others have said the stunbreak part of elusive mind should have been removed but instead exhaustion was added which said players mostly said was bad as it didn’t address the problem and was a poor fix just like they said it was when exhaustion was added to the daredevil dodge.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

 

> Once again, I do not care about the number of evades, only the effectiveness of the evades. If you kitten up and fail to dodge a CC you should be punished, especially when you are given an abundant amount of evades.

>

 

The evades are not as "effective" if you can keep track of the cooldowns and endurance your opponent has spent, much like every other build in the same category that was listed, including DD which **is viable** and a good enough comparison. Also there still is no "abundant" amount, it's about the same that everyone else gets unless you consider any build that has access to vigor to be "abundant". Either way arguing for nerfs to their evade cannot happen since there is nothing to nerf except maybe vigor uptime... which isn't even much, best you'd get is the removal of energy and adventure runes which everyone has access to.

 

Those other builds being "unviable" comes from context of the meta. If any of those are hard countered by scourge for example, then with it's prevalence of course it would not be considered viable. Effectiveness can even vary between 1v1 matchups compared to it's usefulness in a team fight and the team comps surrounding it. You going on about "whataboutism" is what creates the problems we have now, to often everyone reacts to the current meta and not what every class can achieve on a whole in relation to another class. Maybe people should start running things that are a better match up vs mirage and give up a matchup somewhere else if mirage is such a problem, this is how meta is supposed to evolve. If the builds that have stronger matchups against mirage aren't viable, then maybe that is where the balance needs to be fixed.

 

There is also a skill factor despite what people claim is "unviable", adept players who can read their opponents and rotate well can get to at p2 - p3 with gimmick builds presuming their teams don't throw and they do their gimmick well enough to support the game type in one way, or another. (This was even more so true with HoT at the time.)

 

EM is a bit strong though.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

>

> > Once again, I do not care about the number of evades, only the effectiveness of the evades. If you kitten up and fail to dodge a CC you should be punished, especially when you are given an abundant amount of evades.

> >

>

> The evades are not as "effective" if you can keep track of the cooldowns and endurance your opponent has spent

 

You can say that about literally anything. Not that it matters because balance should be around making specs even and fair, not "you can kill them if you do this". Even if you can, it doesn't change the fact that they're playing on a better spec than you.

 

> including DD which **is viable** and a good enough comparison.

 

Please don't be like the other guy, I already posted "The only other viable spec that has such high active defense is Thief"(Edit: Unless you're one of those people who refer to core thief as thief). And you can compare them, sure, but Thief isn't nearly as strong of a 1v1er and takes punishment for getting caught in a CC.

>Also there still is no "abundant" amount, it's about the same that everyone else gets unless you consider any build that has access to vigor to be "abundant". Either way arguing for nerfs to their evade cannot happen since there is nothing to nerf except maybe vigor uptime... which isn't even much, best you'd get is the removal of energy and adventure runes which everyone has access to.

 

It is no where near the same as everyone else. No viable specs use adventure runes because they don't synergize well with anything but Mesmer. You're also forgetting about mirrors and sword 2. Not to mention other active defenses AKA blinds, distort, stealth, ports. They all come together to produce a spec that can mitigate a huge amount of damage. Thus, if they fail their mechanics and get CC'd, they should actually be punished instead of get-out-of-jail-free mirage cloak.

 

 

>

> Those other builds being "unviable" comes from context of the meta. If any of those are hard countered by scourge for example, then with it's prevalence of course it would not be considered viable.

 

They're not unviable because something hard counters them. They are unviable because Mirage does what they do, but better. Why would I ever take another 1v1 spec when A. Mirage has the best 1v1 matchups in the game, B. Mirage is faster or just as fast as any 1v1 spec in the game and, C. Mirage has portal? Take any 1v1 spec you can think of, ignore any hard counters, and you end up with a slower Mirage with less utility. My suggestions are aimed at making it less of a potent 1v1er. It'll still be a great one with the same mobility and the same utility. That fact that people think that's unreasonable is a mystery to me. I'm not dropping a nuke on the class.

 

> Effectiveness can even vary between 1v1 matchups compared to it's usefulness in a team fight and the team comps surrounding it.

 

Being the best 1v1er with high mobility and portal will always be enough to take Mirage.

 

> You going on about "whataboutism" is what creates the problems we have now, to often everyone reacts to the current meta and not what every class can achieve on a whole in relation to another class.

 

You are never going to be able to accurately predict Metas nor do you have the resources to do wide balance changes to every spec, thus you focus on what is current. This is a perfectly acceptable method as it has resulted in pretty decent balance states in the past. Right before PoF's launch balance was in a good spot with every class having a viable build and no classes having such grossly dominant builds with few counters. The only reason why we have the problems we have now are because Anet is slow at balancing.

 

>Maybe people should start running things that are a better match up vs mirage

 

Like what besides Thief(which is NOT a 1v1 spec)?

 

>and give up a matchup somewhere else if mirage is such a problem, this is how meta is supposed to evolve. If the builds that have stronger matchups against mirage aren't viable, then maybe that is where the balance needs to be fixed.

 

Far easier and safer to nerf Mirage that buff specs to Mirage level.

 

 

 

> There is also a skill factor despite what people claim is "unviable", adept players who can read their opponents and rotate well can get to at p2 - p3 with gimmick builds presuming their teams don't throw and they do their gimmick well enough to support the game type in one way, or another. (This was even more so true with HoT at the time.)

 

I'm sure there are players who can get to plat 3 without armor. Relative to what they can accomplish with a real build and same skill level, it's unviable.

 

[Ralkuth.1456]

"Just right" nerfs are never a good thing in my opinion, since creating upheaval in the "meta" is what gives us mostly dogmatic players the push to try out new builds.

 

HoT and now PoF seems to end up saddling into the rut of very few builds for each class but at the very least, a chance of representation in each game.

 

The real problem here then, as an average player sees it, is that all the traits not taken by a majority of players don't work quite well enough to be considered alternatives. I mean when's the last time you heard of something like a bewildering Blood Magic Necro heal-tank/Trap Thief/Spirit Weapon Guard/Bunker Warrior and not shake your head and say "LOL good luck with that trash"? We immediately get dismissive of other possibilities not because we're hostile to opinions not of the hive mind (right? right?) but because we tried out all that stupid crap and found it tremendously underperforming compared to the mainstream choice.

 

Trait trees should be meaningful, and give us hard choices on which of the 3 of a tier to take. Not this current rigidity, where there's an outcry for every nerf made, because we have no other place to go without that particular selection.

 

Now if players can have alternatives, and be 80% effective as the "meta" builds in the same role, while having a much better matchup against 1 particularly dominant "meta" spec of the time... players that don't like being shoehorned into 1 build, or even players that have played that quirky build and nothing else for years may step into the ring and try to win with it.