Tyson.5160 Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > You could also make the argument with the Shadow of the Dragon using the Shadow Magic Sphere with what we have learned about the dragon’s and proximity when gaining certain abilities. This is potentially another sphere of Zhaitan’s that Mordremoth used without exploding as well. Especially if Mordremoth only gained a fixed amount of shadow magic and decided to imbued into one of his powerful Lieutenants. > > Possible, though less Shadow of the Dragon itself and more the mordrem that spawns near it during the second encounter: [shadow Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Tendril), [smothering Shadows](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smothering_Shadow), and [Malformed Shadows](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malformed_Shadow). Though the later two (if not the first) could be argued to be magic summoned by the Shadow of the Dragon rather than independent mordrem. > > All three basically look like mordrem minions with death shroud, not dissimilar to [Death-Touched Destroyers](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer) (the wiki's image of that guy is with low post-processing so it doesn't show the shadow effect seen on them) and the [Death-Branded Test Subject](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Test_Subject). > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > 1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves. > > > > Minor note: This is not True, Mordrem Trolls are like Destroyer Trolls, they are still purely creations, not corruptions. > > Actually, _that_ would be untrue. Both the model and [confirmation by Scott McGough](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/2#post6175329) makes it clear that Mordrem Trolls (and Wolves) as seen in Silverwastes are corrupted animals. To quote: > > > Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. **This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions**—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand. I forgot about this quote, I imagine he is talking about the Mordrem that is created from corpses. I guess the plant eats the dead flesh and replace it with plant life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > 1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves. > > > > Minor note: This is not True, Mordrem Trolls are like Destroyer Trolls, they are still purely creations, not corruptions. > > Actually, _that_ would be untrue. Both the model and [confirmation by Scott McGough](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/2#post6175329) makes it clear that Mordrem Trolls (and Wolves) as seen in Silverwastes are corrupted animals. To quote: > > > Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. **This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions**—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand. I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > I forgot about this quote, I imagine he is talking about the Mordrem that is created from corpses. I guess the plant eats the dead flesh and replace it with plant life. I don't think so. For starters, that wouldn't be cloning, not really, and more importantly, we see some cases where there are more clones than there are originals. Both for living and dead. Diarmid is a good example, though not exactly clone in appearance (unless she was one ugly b****), she is killed numerous times, probably a dozen times in total at least. Logan and Zojja also have multiple clones. This seems to me to be the core of what made Mordremoth such a huge threat - that he could take one powerful individual and create dozens of lookalike mordrem using their capabilities. That, and his ability to spread so much further faster and claim more territory in singular swaths of activity. At the end of that bit, Scott also states that some mordrem are created "from scratch" using plant materials. Though he specifies the vine minions in the latter, I imagine this goes to vinetooths, the flower-like Vinewraths and Thrashers, and the clone mordrems as well. > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said: > Aurene absorbed a bunch of god magic so it's hard to say what abilities she might develop. For all we know the magic she absorbed was like white light, the combination of all the 'spectrums' that make up the rest of the dragons and it granted her a little if everything. Balthazar was no longer a god. He had no god magic, as confirmed by Kormir. He was a former god. The magic that Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed came from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag. Meaning it would be a mixture of Primordus', Jormag's, Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and one of the four schools of magic (likely Preservation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > I forgot about this quote, I imagine he is talking about the Mordrem that is created from corpses. I guess the plant eats the dead flesh and replace it with plant life. > > I don't think so. For starters, that wouldn't be cloning, not really, and more importantly, we see some cases where there are more clones than there are originals. Both for living and dead. Diarmid is a good example, though not exactly clone in appearance (unless she was one ugly b****), she is killed numerous times, probably a dozen times in total at least. Logan and Zojja also have multiple clones. This seems to me to be the core of what made Mordremoth such a huge threat - that he could take one powerful individual and create dozens of lookalike mordrem using their capabilities. That, and his ability to spread so much further faster and claim more territory in singular swaths of activity. > > At the end of that bit, Scott also states that some mordrem are created "from scratch" using plant materials. Though he specifies the vine minions in the latter, I imagine this goes to vinetooths, the flower-like Vinewraths and Thrashers, and the clone mordrems as well. > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said: > > Aurene absorbed a bunch of god magic so it's hard to say what abilities she might develop. For all we know the magic she absorbed was like white light, the combination of all the 'spectrums' that make up the rest of the dragons and it granted her a little if everything. > > Balthazar was no longer a god. He had no god magic, as confirmed by Kormir. He was a former god. > > The magic that Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed came from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag. Meaning it would be a mixture of Primordus', Jormag's, Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and one of the four schools of magic (likely Preservation). I guess he was talking more about the analogy about swamp thing then about the actual Mordrem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > I forgot about this quote, I imagine he is talking about the Mordrem that is created from corpses. I guess the plant eats the dead flesh and replace it with plant life. > > I don't think so. For starters, that wouldn't be cloning, not really, and more importantly, we see some cases where there are more clones than there are originals. Both for living and dead. Diarmid is a good example, though not exactly clone in appearance (unless she was one ugly b****), she is killed numerous times, probably a dozen times in total at least. Logan and Zojja also have multiple clones. This seems to me to be the core of what made Mordremoth such a huge threat - that he could take one powerful individual and create dozens of lookalike mordrem using their capabilities. That, and his ability to spread so much further faster and claim more territory in singular swaths of activity. > > At the end of that bit, Scott also states that some mordrem are created "from scratch" using plant materials. Though he specifies the vine minions in the latter, I imagine this goes to vinetooths, the flower-like Vinewraths and Thrashers, and the clone mordrems as well. > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said: > > Aurene absorbed a bunch of god magic so it's hard to say what abilities she might develop. For all we know the magic she absorbed was like white light, the combination of all the 'spectrums' that make up the rest of the dragons and it granted her a little if everything. > > Balthazar was no longer a god. He had no god magic, as confirmed by Kormir. He was a former god. > > The magic that Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed came from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag. Meaning it would be a mixture of Primordus', Jormag's, Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and one of the four schools of magic (likely Preservation). Vinetooths (Vineteeth?) were a custom job by Mordremoth if I’m remembering the Exalted dialogue exactly. Designed specifically to take out Exalted and claim their masks. I’ve wonder if Mordremoth resorts to cloning process as a faster way to produce minions. Perhaps we only see only so few Vineteeth because they take Mordremoth long to create, maybe just like the Pale Tree took a while to produce Sylvari. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Except that the hypothetical domain of sky/air is not light. And even if it were, darkness = shadow = Zhaitan. It's sun, lightning and wind. Plasma, plasma, and gas moving under via the heat of plasma. The opposite would be a blackhole. If you splitting Druid between light and tides/black holes. Shadow is the name of the sphere, the space between light and darkness, and another word for spectre. Darkness is still available, perhaps not that word itself, but concept is > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > I'm aware of the damage types from the previous game. They aren't canon anymore and the person I had responded to specifically asked in terms of Gw2. > > > > The Deadeye honed Shadow magic over the last decades. Just like the Zephyr. yrites honed Air magic. And the rangers honed Nature magic. It doesn't mean those principles didn't exist but they were organized differently. > > > > Shadow Magic is undoubtedly part of the Dark Arts. Life steal, darkness that blinds/binds/poisons, marking others for death, taking away sanity, etc is not good magic. > > > > Shadow arts is when you focus that on physicality/infusing weapons instead of casting. So you shadowstep instead of teleporting etc. > The previous game remains canon. So yes it is still canon. > > Not saying the Deadeye hasn't honed shadow magic, I'm saying it's not the first to use it which you are. The previous damage types are not canon sources of what an object was. The graphics/substances have been updated with a new perspective. Even so, it was not called shadow magic back then. Shadow damage was only in Necromancer traitlines, and Shadow Arts used spells as mechanic term. Dark energy was and is still used but Deadeyes are the first to use the term "shadow magic". And what those non-scholars say is as impressive as if Guardians started saying light magic. > > Dark Arts **is not a singular concept in Tyria**. It is used equally to refer to necromancy as well as evil/forbidden magic (Anet really cannot be consistent enough here). For example > > There were two primary dwarven factions. Deldrimor relics heal or empower users. The Stone Summit's relics tended towards the dark arts and demonic pacts. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Innkeeper_Klement > > Once a great, northen nature spirit, Nulfastu descended into the dark arts in an attempt to destroy his brethren and usurp their powers. When his intentions were revealed, the other spirits struck down Nulfastu, binding his incorporeal body to this realm and his spirit powers to the next. > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nulfastu_Earthbound > > Given the description you use, you're likely thinking of the thief/assassin trait/attribute: **Deadly** Arts. The description I gave is of the shadow arts/deadeye traitline and the mechanics they are associated with. This includes uses shadows to steal life, and poison people. I consider them practitioners of the metaphorical Dark Arts and the Aggression school. Shadow manipulation geared around assassination/theft doesn't fit elsewhere. > > And no, Shadow Arts is more than focusing on infusing weapons with magic. There's some [pretty](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_Form) [obvious](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_Shroud) [magic](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_Refuge) in [shadow]() [Arts](). In GW1, there were very few equipment-based skills in Shadow Arts. And in GW2, it's more about stealth than shadowstepping. Shadow Arts has always been "the magical attribute" for assassins, or "the magical traitline" for thieves. It is Deadly Arts that is more of a mixture of weapons infused with magic than direct casting. I wasn't factoring in other traitlines. But is there a Deadly Magic? Wouldn't that just be shadow arts applied to weaponry like everything Ranger does is Nature magic? > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > No undead should be capable of it. The soul s we see in the Departed, it holds knowledge. > Undead cannot mentally transfer their knowledge to their creator. This is a fact, proven by the fact that players don't learn everything they turn into a minions. Correct. But soul comprehension w/e contains some mind-esque element that allows you to remove the mind, selectively change one's control over their body, and return original skills. We didn't see this amongst the Mordrem. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Vlast could crystallize memory. And it's not unique of two or more entities have it. > Crystallizing memory is not the same as reading thoughts or granting visions (the latter Glint never did, btw, and supposedly Aurene could only do due to making us her champion, how she did it to the rest of Dragon's Watch is unclear). They are all a form of thought transmission to another without a hive mind. The Mind Dragon only being able to send impulses through the Dream is more Vulcan mind melding than telepathy. And he was silent for the majority of races. > > And if two beings out of thousands are the only ones to have a specific talent, then yes, it remains unique. The Dragons were six beings out of thousands. It's rare that the 2.5 entities that showed a particular power would all be descendants of the one with electromagnetic powers while the Pale Tree can't directly speak to non-Sylvari without an Avatar. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Beyond the emotional effect he has, there is frozen Mists spike that bound a Havroun and allowed Svanir open portals at will. > Which relates to the soul... how? > > The Mists is not something restricted to the soul. For Havrouns, especially, since they can physically enter the Mists through the Spirits of the Wild powers, and the portal opened by injuring the Wolf Havroun allowed the Svanir to do exactly that. They froze Mists, bound his spirit with it > Styrr Frostblade: With Solvi's power at my command, I can open as many portals as I need! and began invoking him. Essentially a binding ritual. And that falls under preservation/spirit magic. As do many skills related to emotions or will. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Because the experiments on Kralkatorik's Mind enhanced minions indicate creature to creature not creatures to entity. > And a natural "creature to entity" (or more accurately, "minion to dragon") mental bond is exactly what you denied to exist among Jormag, Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik by presenting some obscure reference to how their own domains allow the transfer to knowledge and thoughts. You misunderstand my point. All dragons have mental abilities having to do with minion control. However, on top of that they have manipulations absent in Mordremoth. He cannot return/remove the mind, transmit thoughts unconnected, or control behavior. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit. > > > That's not really true. We know for a **fact**, as [provided by ArenaNet developers](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/496259/#Comment_496259), that Mordremoth's domain of mind gave him the ability to transcend his body to make more of his corruption his "body". This is the entire premise of the climax of Heart of Thorns and why we mind-dive into the Dream of Dreams. It's also pretty heavily stated that Mordremoth had performed massive amounts of telepathy with his minions and the sylvari, thus why they're left confused and disorganized, unlike the risen who went on as normal with Zhaitan's death. > > > > Transcending the body is not mutually exclusive with controlling an aetherial consciousness. > > > > And Mordemoth's massive amounts "telepathy" is nothing like Glint & co. He connected a bunch of kitten and used it to send impulses. > Take a moment and realize that you did not even respond to anything I've said. I'll be clearer. No one doubts Mordremoth was capable of Astral projection and forming mental connections. Or that he could send thoughts via wyld hunts. The link you provided did not say anything about telepathy it mentions a consciousness. This is not mutually exclusive with anything I said. I believe as far as Nature Magic is concerned, he's a telepath. But he's more Poison Ivy than Professor Xavier. A Plant Mesmer/Ranger that spoke via sensations plants could interpret. The Sylvari heard it as a voice. I imagine the Sylvan hound received something more rudimentary from the empathic bond. It is not telepathy. It is the immaterial consciousness and bonds we make in life, physically represented by the non spectral Magenta our brain creates vs the tunnel of light our brain creates as we die and the places the soul goes. > > > > Furthermore, everything you attached to the Pale Tree **is not her own doing,** but the Dream of Dreams' doing, and it must be stressed that as proven by Malyck and the White Stag, the Dream of Dreams is not something unique to Mordremoth and his minions. > > > > The Pale Tree can attach her children to a mindscape, and see/influence the flow of information. She doesn't read minds. > Never said she read minds. I merely stated that the Dream of Dreams is not part of Mordremoth's domain of Mind magic. Which you didn't deny. Once more, for the third time now, you've not even responded to what I was saying. Why would I deny that? It isn't. The magic is in connecting to it and sending impulses along it. > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance. > > > > > > Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" _are stated weaknesses_ > > > > Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons. > Which is... exactly... my point... Cool? Is it also that spheres cancel out as the corruptive substance/magic, not the extrusion during sleep and death? I believe the dragons that physically coat to the degree of Primordius and Jormag become vulnerable. But it is not automatically a weakness. I do not believe Taimi's machine can hook into a mindscape. And I imagine there is some way to subvert it for the other set. It's also possible Novans were just wrong on uniqueness. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation? > > > > > > Because dark energy **is** the type of magic > > > > > > Multiple practices can use a singular type of magic (aka type of energy), as we see all over. But it's uncommon if not downright never seen for two types of magic to house the same effects. > > > > Boons and conditions would imply otherwise. And if elemental energy can be divided into five and then divided again into aspects why not other stuff. > > > > Spectral for steath and teleportation. Space for gravity. > Per boons and conditions: that's pure mechanics that has gotten simplified in order to avoid the massive amounts of hexes and enchantments presented by GW1. Not every spell that provides burning likely actually sets someone on natural fire. Besides which, there's multiple ways to make someone bleed or to poison someone, but that doesn't mean the form of bloodletting or poisoning is going to be the same. > > As for elemental energy, that's just a categorization of multiple magical types. It's the same as grouping light, dark/shadow, and chaos magic into a singular "metaphysical magic". Just like grouping dark and shadow. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > * The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time. > > > > * Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean. > > > The former isn't magic at all, so there'd be no need to name the sphere for it which was the entire discussion. > > > The latter wouldn't need to be tied to horror/fear/darkness at all. Could be called, idk, "Space/Spacial Magic" > > > > It definitely is magical terror when cast by Soulbeast. And black holes aren't shadows. > > There is an unrepresented natural darkness that is separate from Zhaitan. And wasn't inflicted on the living by Mordremoth. > Again see above's "per boons and conditions", but the ocean's abyssal darkness is not magical at all. > > And the one who brought up gravity as some sort of "darkness" magic was you, so why are you now disagreeing with yourself? Natural as in created via Nature magic. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > > Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance. > > > > > > > > > > Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" _are stated weaknesses_ > > > > > > > > Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons. > > > > > > Mordremoth used Death Magic, like Zhaitan used Death Magic. Making minions out of corpses... > > > > After Mordremoth absorbed Death he began cloning the dead. He did not mix energies. He did not raise corpses. He did not restore > > or transfer the original skills of his minions. Even clones could not access their counterparts abilities that fell outside his domain. And when they died he grew new ones. > > > > Mordrem Trolls, and Sylvari are analogous to any other ED's usage of their primary sphere. > 1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves. Which is not unusual. > 2) Cloning the dead **was** Mordremoth mixing energies. Which clones were also undead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > > 2) Cloning the dead **was** Mordremoth mixing energies. > > Which clones were also undead? They weren’t, however you could argue that the trolls and the wolves were corrupted corpses as Konig mentioned. The point I was making was that Mordremoth physically used the death magic spectrum, by making minions from the dead, similiar to Zhaitan also making minions from the dead. Before this Mordremoth had to place living creatures in his Mordrem Pods which meant that he had to take prisoners to produce more minions. Getting the Death spectrum gave Mordremoth more options for minion creation because he could use dead corpses as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > 2) Cloning the dead **was** Mordremoth mixing energies. > > > > Which clones were also undead? > > They weren’t, however you could argue that the trolls and the wolves were corrupted corpses as Konig mentioned It doesn't mean they used corpses. It's not like corruption was instant before Zhaitan. Svanir/Icebrood can become incredibly ice-like and disfigured while still being alive. The same is probably true of parasitic fungi. And even if the host dies, the corpse was a trellis/fertilizer. > > The point I was making was that Mordremoth physically used the death magic spectrum, by making minions from the dead, similiar to Zhaitan also making minions from the dead. Before this Mordremoth had to place living creatures in his Mordrem Pods which meant that he had to take prisoners to produce more minions. Getting the Death spectrum gave Mordremoth more options for minion creation because he could use dead corpses as well. Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature. Like other dragons have done. Using death magic to understand corpses is separate from using plant magic to copy them. There is nothing imbued with the matter or energy of both. Nor do any clones exhibit orginal abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 This has gotten too long so I'm going to be selective in my responses (sadly, still too long): > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > Except that the hypothetical domain of sky/air is not light. And even if it were, darkness = shadow = Zhaitan. > > It's sun, lightning and wind. Plasma, plasma, and gas moving under via the heat of plasma. The opposite would be a blackhole. If you splitting Druid between light and tides/black holes. > > Shadow is the name of the sphere, the space between light and darkness, and another word for spectre. Darkness is still available, perhaps not that word itself, but concept is Firstly, I'm pretty sure you're being far more scientific than necessary. This isn't the fine tuned molecules of nature, these are elemental concepts of magic. From that perspective, the opposite of sky is... earth. But you detracted from the very initial argument. Which was "since Glint and Zephyrite magic are all bright, then if the DSD is Kralk's opposite then it must be related to darkness." My point the whole time has been that this is a massive misnomer - Glint and Zephyrite magic are bright, but Kralkatorrik's is dark in comparison. In the same light, Pale Tree and sylvari magic is bright, while Mordremoth's is dark. It's a typical "good = bright; evil = dark" modifier and holds no sway over the actual spheres. Now, I could (and have) agreed with the notion that the DSD's second sphere may be related to gravity, though I would hardly call it "darkness" or "shadow" since that is literally Zhaitan's, but instead call it Spacial (since gravity wells and the like are all related to space) or even Celestial (this would mirror Kuunavang if the old "Kuunavang = DSD champ" rings true). Shadow, in the concept of GW2, is not "the space between light and darkness" but another name for darkness. Like with the plasma stuff, you're going too scientific and too specific.. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > The previous damage types are not canon sources of what an object was. The graphics/substances have been updated with a new perspective. GW1 is still canon, both appearances and mechanics (where mechanics and lore intermingle). Just because things have changed in the 250 years does not negate what was. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Correct. But soul comprehension w/e contains some mind-esque element that allows you to remove the mind, selectively change one's control over their body, and return original skills. We didn't see this amongst the Mordrem. I would say we did, given that the mordrem hylek (best example) do utilize the exact same skills as their non-mordrem counterparts. The Mordrem Guard don't really seem to use non-mordrem capabilities, and this is indeed weird. But we also see some necromantic abilities throughout various mordrem, primary example being the leeching thrashers who have a heavy use of life steal. We also see a number of mordrem with stealth, so if Zhaitan's domain of shadow = shadow magic as we see among thieves, this would explain that atop of the Shadow Tendrils/Smothering Shadows fought alongside the Shadow of the Dragon. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > The Dragons were six beings out of thousands. It's rare that the 2.5 entities that showed a particular power would all be descendants of the one with electromagnetic powers while the Pale Tree can't directly speak to non-Sylvari without an Avatar. There's no evidence that there were thousands like the Elder Dragons, but Glint and her children are not like the Elder Dragons but regular dragons like Kuunavang and Rotscale. The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > They froze Mists, bound his spirit with it That's literally never said. I just checked. The "froze Mists" part. They did bind his spirit with it, but that holds no relation to the before mention that Jormag communicates with his minions through command of souls. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > The Sylvari heard it as a voice. I imagine the Sylvan hound received something more rudimentary from the empathic bond. > > It is not telepathy. Scarlet and Aerin literally had a conversation with the voice in their head. And IIRC, other sylvari/Mordrem Guard in HoT do too. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Cool? Is it also that spheres cancel out as the corruptive substance/magic, not the extrusion during sleep and death? > > I believe the dragons that physically coat to the degree of Primordius and Jormag become vulnerable. But it is not automatically a weakness. I do not believe Taimi's machine can hook into a mindscape. And I imagine there is some way to subvert it for the other set. > > It's also possible Novans were just wrong on uniqueness. I have no clue what you were saying (and nothing indicates that Taimi's machine can hook into a mindscape? That was Omadd's machine). As for the unique weakness, the Forgotten also say this during The Way Forward. Josso Essher: Each has a distinct flaw. Josso Essher: Mordremoth, for example, dominates thought. But its most powerful asset—its mind—is also its greatest liability. Josso Essher: Kralkatorrik's unique strength—its power to crystalize objects—is also its singular weakness. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > Mordrem Trolls, and Sylvari are analogous to any other ED's usage of their primary sphere. > > 1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves. > > Which is not unusual. > > > 2) Cloning the dead **was** Mordremoth mixing energies. > > Which clones were also undead? > First part: But that would mean Mordremoth corrupt the dead. Ergo, "mixed his and Zhaitan's magic". Second part: It's not that the clones were undead, but that the clones were made from the dead. Something that was apparently impossible for him prior to absorbing Zhaitan's magic. That means he was utilizing Zhaitan's magic with his own, ergo mixing magic. Which based on the whole "counteracting spheres" would mean that Mordrem should have been exploding left and right. 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Tyson.5160 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > 2) Cloning the dead **was** Mordremoth mixing energies. > > > > > > Which clones were also undead? > > > > They weren’t, however you could argue that the trolls and the wolves were corrupted corpses as Konig mentioned > > It doesn't mean they used corpses. Svanir/Icebrood can become incredibly ice like and disfigured while still being alive. The same is probably true of parasitic fungi and even if the host dies, that's just fertilizer. > > > > > The point I was making was that Mordremoth physically used the death magic spectrum, by making minions from the dead, similiar to Zhaitan also making minions from the dead. Before this Mordremoth had to place living creatures in his Mordrem Pods which meant that he had to take prisoners to produce more minions. Getting the Death spectrum gave Mordremoth more options for minion creation because he could use dead corpses as well. > > Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature. Like other dragons have done. > > Using death magic to understand corpses is separate from using plant magic to copy them. Each dragon has it’s own way of generating minions, that method doesn’t change. Do you see Primordus creating minions from the dead since he has obtained the death spectrum? No, however he infuses his destroyers with that new magic, probably because he simply creates minions and doesn’t need a source like Jormag or Kralkatorrik do. In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > 2) Cloning the dead **was** Mordremoth mixing energies. > > > > > > > > Which clones were also undead? > > > > > > They weren’t, however you could argue that the trolls and the wolves were corrupted corpses as Konig mentioned > > > > It doesn't mean they used corpses. Svanir/Icebrood can become incredibly ice like and disfigured while still being alive. The same is probably true of parasitic fungi and even if the host dies, that's just fertilizer. > > > > > > > > The point I was making was that Mordremoth physically used the death magic spectrum, by making minions from the dead, similiar to Zhaitan also making minions from the dead. Before this Mordremoth had to place living creatures in his Mordrem Pods which meant that he had to take prisoners to produce more minions. Getting the Death spectrum gave Mordremoth more options for minion creation because he could use dead corpses as well. > > > > Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature. Like other dragons have done. > > > > Using death magic to understand corpses is separate from using plant magic to copy them. > > Each dragon has it’s own way of generating minions, that method doesn’t change. Do you see Primordus creating minions from the dead since he has obtained the death spectrum? No, however he infuses his destroyers with that new magic, probably because he simply creates minions and doesn’t need a source like Jormag or Kralkatorrik do. "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead **or creating a death touched creature.**" There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc. > > In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does. You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it. Clones are physically separate from the "source". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead **or creating a death touched creature.**" > > There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc. The first and second are basically normal minions who have a death shroud effect. That is 100% what [shadow Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Tendril) are. They're [Dragon Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_Tendril) (aka large [Jungle Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jungle_Tendril)) with shadow (and death?) magic in them. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does. > > You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it. > > > Clones are physically separate from the "source". Regardless of physical connection, [it's been confirmed that the dead cannot be used without Zhaitan's death sphere](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/493906/#Comment_493906). The same way Kralkatorrik can brand the dead and Primordus can make his minions green thanks to the death sphere, Mordremoth can clone the dead. They're all cases of Elder Dragons using the death (and shadow?) spheres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > This has gotten too long so I'm going to be selective in my responses (sadly, still too long): Fair. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > Except that the hypothetical domain of sky/air is not light. And even if it were, darkness = shadow = Zhaitan. > > > > It's sun, lightning and wind. Plasma, plasma, and gas moving under via the heat of plasma. The opposite would be a blackhole. If you splitting Druid between light and tides/black holes. > > > > Shadow is the name of the sphere, the space between light and darkness, and another word for spectre. Darkness is still available, perhaps not that word itself, but concept is > Firstly, I'm pretty sure you're being far more scientific than necessary. This isn't the fine tuned molecules of nature, these are elemental concepts of magic. From that perspective, the opposite of sky is... earth. > > But you detracted from the very initial argument. Which was "since Glint and Zephyrite magic are all bright, then if the DSD is Kralk's opposite then it must be related to darkness." My point the whole time has been that this is a massive misnomer - Glint and Zephyrite magic are bright, but Kralkatorrik's is dark in comparison. In the same light, Pale Tree and sylvari magic is bright, while Mordremoth's is dark. It's a typical "good = bright; evil = dark" modifier and holds no sway over the actual spheres. > > Now, I could (and have) agreed with the notion that the DSD's second sphere may be related to gravity, though I would hardly call it "darkness" or "shadow" since that is literally Zhaitan's, but instead call it Spacial (since gravity wells and the like are all related to space) or even Celestial (this would mirror Kuunavang if the old "Kuunavang = DSD champ" rings true). > > Shadow, in the concept of GW2, is not "the space between light and darkness" but another name for darkness. Like with the plasma stuff, you're going too scientific and too specific. * In terms of plasma. The Zephyrite crystals are used to power the Photon Forge. Weaver refers to Fire+Air as plasma. * If fire is not the opposite of water then air has probably shifted meaning as well. * The initial argument wasn't about the brightness of magic, but the physical illumination of the aspects. Natural bioluminescence and fire may glow, but their users haven't shaped light/lightning. * Shadows can't hurt people from a scientific perspective. Zhaitain embodies the metaphysical shadow of death, the tunnel of light we see as we die, etc. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > The previous damage types are not canon sources of what an object was. The graphics/substances have been updated with a new perspective. > GW1 is still canon, both appearances and mechanics (where mechanics and lore intermingle). > > Just because things have changed in the 250 years does not negate what was. The retcon of holiness, the combination of shadow/dark, paragon's not using blue lightning/fire, the addition of several fields, etc make what magical scepters did not 100% canon beyond whether the aftereffect like being burned, shocked etc. Were dark scepters using demonic, shadow, mental, or celestial darkness? > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Correct. But soul comprehension w/e contains some mind-esque element that allows you to remove the mind, selectively change one's control over their body, and return original skills. We didn't see this amongst the Mordrem. > I would say we did, given that the mordrem hylek (best example) do utilize the exact same skills as their non-mordrem counterparts. The Mordrem Guard don't really seem to use non-mordrem capabilities, and this is indeed weird. But we also see some necromantic abilities throughout various mordrem, primary example being the leeching thrashers who have a heavy use of life steal. > > We also see a number of mordrem with stealth, so if Zhaitan's domain of shadow = shadow magic as we see among thieves, this would explain that atop of the Shadow Tendrils/Smothering Shadows fought alongside the Shadow of the Dragon. > Are the Hylek/Thrashers using abilities of their species? Or spellcasting? You've established that animals aren't magicians. So that would include creatures like jaguars/vampire bat. Also, dark hallucinations and mind based stealth exist within the Mesmer discipline. The Shadow of the Dragon existed before the death of Zhaitain. The smothering shadows are called that because they can be buffed by and disrupt Divine Fire. The spark of Ascension, which is another mental phenomena. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > The Dragons were six beings out of thousands. It's rare that the 2.5 entities that showed a particular power would all be descendants of the one with electromagnetic powers while the Pale Tree can't directly speak to non-Sylvari without an Avatar. > There's no evidence that there were thousands like the Elder Dragons, but Glint and her children are not like the Elder Dragons but regular dragons like Kuunavang and Rotscale. The scions can replace their father/patriarch/others of his class, just like Grenth could replace Dhuum. It is very likely Glint & co do not have the body of a regular dragon. The only major difference is their crystal/air magic does not come with enslavement to a compulsive hunger. > > The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3. Source perhaps? And why did Mordremoth never do so? You would think influencing the more popular races would be important. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > They froze Mists, bound his spirit with it > That's literally never said. I just checked. The "froze Mists" part. They did bind his spirit with it, but that holds no relation to the before mention that Jormag communicates with his minions through command of souls. You are correct. I assumed they froze it. Its "corrupted Mists" which could be anything really. Also the telepathic-esque association I made was with mind control. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > The Sylvari heard it as a voice. I imagine the Sylvan hound received something more rudimentary from the empathic bond. > > > > It is not telepathy. > Scarlet and Aerin literally had a conversation with the voice in their head. And IIRC, other sylvari/Mordrem Guard in HoT do too. Through Wyld Hunts on an empathic race. Why didn't he speak with other races? > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Cool? Is it also that spheres cancel out as the corruptive substance/magic, not the extrusion during sleep and death? > > > > I believe the dragons that physically coat to the degree of Primordius and Jormag become vulnerable. But it is not automatically a weakness. I do not believe Taimi's machine can hook into a mindscape. And I imagine there is some way to subvert it for the other set. > > > > It's also possible Novans were just wrong on uniqueness. > I have no clue what you were saying (and nothing indicates that Taimi's machine can hook into a mindscape? That was Omadd's machine). His Mind was not located in a physical dimension. She knew the location of Primordius/Jormag, and how to collect their magic. > > As for the unique weakness, the Forgotten also say this during The Way Forward. > > Josso Essher: Each has a distinct flaw. > Josso Essher: Mordremoth, for example, dominates thought. But its most powerful asset—its mind—is also its greatest liability. > Josso Essher: Kralkatorrik's unique strength—its power to crystalize objects—is also its singular weakness. > Well using the eternal alchemy to mix and match via an irreplacable invention is not a distinct flaw. It's interesting they say Mordremoth dominated thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead **or creating a death touched creature.**" > > > > There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc. > > The first and second are basically normal minions who have a death shroud effect. That is 100% what [shadow Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Tendril) are. They're [Dragon Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_Tendril) (aka large [Jungle Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jungle_Tendril)) with shadow (and death?) magic in them. Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them. Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does. > > > > You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it. > > > > > > Clones are physically separate from the "source". > Regardless of physical connection, [it's been confirmed that the dead cannot be used without Zhaitan's death sphere](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/493906/#Comment_493906). The same way Kralkatorrik can brand the dead and Primordus can make his minions green thanks to the death sphere, Mordremoth can clone the dead. They're all cases of Elder Dragons using the death (and shadow?) spheres. The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Again, going to cut out arguments I feel are being derailing. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > * If fire is not the opposite of water then air has probably shifted meaning as well. > * The initial argument wasn't about the brightness of magic, but the physical illumination of the aspects. Natural bioluminescence and fire may glow, but their users haven't shaped light/lightning. > * Shadows can't hurt people from a scientific perspective. Zhaitain embodies the metaphysical shadow of death, the tunnel of light we see as we die, etc. * Why would water be fire's opposite in the first place? Because water is used to put fire out? But so is dirt (and that's actually more important). Water is used because it is a coolant, and is reducing the heat of fire. In this sense, ice - the extreme of coolant - would be used against fire/lava - the extreme of hot. This isn't really a shifted meaning. * The initial statement was, to quote, "Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based." but there really isn't much literal "light based" in it. No more so than fire is "light based". * And like I said, drop the scientific perspective. This is a fantasy setting, where the perception tends to veer towards what is visible to the naked eye, and what was once believed during medieval eras. Besides that, shadows - equivalent to "lack of light" - can be harmful in that wandering through the dark, you cannot see what can harm you. Being submerged in total darkness can also leave people grasping towards sanity. Zhaitan was more than the "shadow of death", he was literally exploiting fears. And if suspicion holds true, his shadow domain allowed him access to stealth and teleportation (shadowstepping) among other things. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Are the Hylek/Thrashers using abilities of their species? Or spellcasting? You've established that animals aren't magicians. So that would include creatures like jaguars/vampire bat. Also, dark hallucinations and mind based stealth exist within the Mesmer discipline. The hylek do use the abilities of their species and what they were trained for (they're exact duplicates of their non-mordrem counterparts). Thrashers have no (known) non-mordrem counterpart. I never established that animals aren't magicians (we actually know of many natural species which utilize magic - chak and skelk at the very least, but drakes and wyverns are likely, and we got many "psuedo elementals" like aqua/fire stalkers, sand lions, rock dogs, etc.). I would not link the Mind domain to everything mesmers can do. There is an abnormal level of mesmers that focus on stealth and illusions within the risen - so much so that I would suspect that they, like thieves, utilize shadow magic. The telepathic and mental alterations of mesmers I would list under mind magic, but not the phantasms, clones, and other illusions which are altering the refraction of light in reality more than one's perception of reality. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > The Shadow of the Dragon existed before the death of Zhaitain. The smothering shadows are called that because they can be buffed by and disrupt Divine Fire. The spark of Ascension, which is another mental phenomena. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them. > Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce. No, the **Dragon Tendrils** are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon. And while the Shadow of the Dragon existed **within the Dream** before Zhaitan's death, it did **_not_** exist in Tyria. The Shadow Tendrils are very different from Dragon Tendrils in that they are literally enwrapped in shadow. Their very existence is what prompted the player theories that Mordremoth ate Zhaitan's magic (which no doubt led to Anet going that route in the end thus creating confusion and potential plotholes). And Zhaitan doesn't control Nightmares. Nowhere do we ever see Aatxes under his employ. The closest we get is the Priest of Grenth utilizing the Temple of Grenth's magic to summon Shades. But in the same light, every temple was used to summon twisted variations of that god's magic. Zhaitan, however, as stated did control illusions and clones, which are the creation of refracting light... shadows, if you will. Zhaitan has had the heaviest use of mesmers among his forces than any other Elder Dragon. This may hint that half of mesmer's magic comes from Shadow Magic (whoever said that a profession is limited to one type of magic? Given Elementalists/Rangers using four types, no one!) Furthermore, the Smothering Shadows are called such because they are literally shadows. And Divine Fire is more than part of Ascension which in turn is far more than mere mental phenomenal (it is literally the unlocking of one's potential and allowing them to see those who hide partway into the Mists like souls and mursaat; this is more soul-based than mind-based). > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3. > > Source perhaps? And why did Mordremoth never do so? You would think influencing the more popular races would be important. "I am not as I appear to you. This small body is but a manifestation I use to put visitors at ease. My entire being stretches deep into this world and out into the Dream. I am more than you can imagine." https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_the_Tree Similar dialogue is said at the conclusion of each chapter 1 sylvari PC, and was mentioned in interviews and articles about the sylvari pre-release. She doesn't create the avatar to communicate, but to put visitors at ease. Mordremoth likely wouldn't have bothered because he doesn't want to convert like Jormag does, he wanted to enslave. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Through Wyld Hunts on an empathic race. Why didn't he speak with other races? Because his communication was through the Dream of Dreams, which other races lack. By all evidence, he wouldn't be capable of communicating with Malyck's branch of sylvari either. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Well using the eternal alchemy to mix and match via an irreplacable invention is not a distinct flaw. It's interesting they say Mordremoth dominated thought. That's not really what Taimi's Machine did, it was simply exposing the other to its weakness in beam energy form, the same way the Warbeast did to Kralkatorrik. No shaking or stirring required. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom. Debatable, and all evidence points against your conclusion, but regardless of that much, Mordremoth still absorbed the magic himself. Magic that, by all means, should make **him** go boom based on the existence of the Unstable Abomination and how it was killed. Thus creating the massive contradiction that we have presented. The Unstable Abomination died due to a mixing of death and plant; Mordremoth mixed death and plant but suffered no ill side effects. The Unstable Abomination shows that death and plant were weak to each other; Novans and Forgotten proclaim every Elder Dragon have one specific unique weakness and that Mordremoth's was his mind while (per devs) Zhaitan's was his reliance on specialized minions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead **or creating a death touched creature.**" > > > > > > There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc. > > > > The first and second are basically normal minions who have a death shroud effect. That is 100% what [shadow Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Tendril) are. They're [Dragon Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_Tendril) (aka large [Jungle Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jungle_Tendril)) with shadow (and death?) magic in them. > > Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them. > Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce. > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does. > > > > > > You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it. > > > > > > > > > Clones are physically separate from the "source". > > Regardless of physical connection, [it's been confirmed that the dead cannot be used without Zhaitan's death sphere](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/493906/#Comment_493906). The same way Kralkatorrik can brand the dead and Primordus can make his minions green thanks to the death sphere, Mordremoth can clone the dead. They're all cases of Elder Dragons using the death (and shadow?) spheres. > > The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom. Ok so, why wasn’t Primordus making Risen and Mordrem then... why did Jormag make an Icebrood when he could have made a Risen or a Mordrem? Mordremoth is still using those energies though, he is using the death spectrum so he can make minions from the dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > * If fire is not the opposite of water then air has probably shifted meaning as well. > > * The initial argument wasn't about the brightness of magic, but the physical illumination of the aspects. Natural bioluminescence and fire may glow, but their users haven't shaped light/lightning. > > * Shadows can't hurt people from a scientific perspective. Zhaitain embodies the metaphysical shadow of death, the tunnel of light we see as we die, etc. > > * Why would water be fire's opposite in the first place? Because water is used to put fire out? But so is dirt (and that's actually more important). Water is used because it is a coolant, and is reducing the heat of fire. In this sense, ice - the extreme of coolant - would be used against fire/lava - the extreme of hot. This isn't really a shifted meaning. Because water was moist/cold while fire was dry/hot. The moist/hot air and the dry/cold earth could help or hurt their adjacent elements. Dirt smothered fire, but charcoal burns and rocks melt. If https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twin_Strike is separated by quality to achieve spheres of cold water vs hot fire, then what we call water is actually its moist quality. And dry fire was absorbed into the air sphere to make sun/lightning/wind. But that's too complicated. I assume the spheres are just canceling out by processes. Plant can oppose death, etc. > * The initial statement was, to quote, "Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalakatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based." but there really isn't much literal "light based" in it. No more so than fire is "light based". > * And like I said, drop the scientific perspective. This is a fantasy setting, where the perception tends to veer towards what is visible to the naked eye, and what was once believed during medieval eras. Besides that, shadows - equivalent to "lack of light" - can be harmful in that wandering through the dark, you cannot see what can harm you. Being submerged in total darkness can also leave people grasping towards sanity. Zhaitan was more than the "shadeow of death", he was literally exploiting fears. And if suspicion holds true, his shadow domain allowed him access to stealth and teleportation (shadowstepping) among other things. Magiscience is a large aspect of this fantasy. Holosmiths create light-based constructs/fields using a photon forge that runs on sun crystals. Like sun spirits they illuminate/burn without depending on flames. Ignoring real science, solar magic could be opposed by lunar magic, tides/celestial shadow/etc. Idk. Zhaitan's shadow is less elemental, more of a counterpoint to the light of faith than the sun. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Are the Hylek/Thrashers using abilities of their species? Or spellcasting? You've established that animals aren't magicians. So that would include creatures like jaguars/vampire bat. Also, dark hallucinations and mind based stealth exist within the Mesmer discipline. > > The hylek do use the abilities of their species and what they were trained for (they're exact duplicates of their non-mordrem counterparts). Thrashers have no (known) non-mordrem counterpart... So no spellcasting outside Mordremoth domain. > > I would not link the Mind domain to everything mesmers can do. There is an abnormal level of mesmers that focus on stealth and illusions within the risen - so much so that I would suspect that they, like thieves, utilize shadow magic. The telepathic and mental alterations of mesmers I would list under mind magic, but not the phantasms, clones, and other illusions which are altering the refraction of light in reality more than one's perception of reality. I don't see why not. Based on GWEN, illusion magic is about inducing the aether into hardening and/or directly influencing the mind. I would assume phantasms/clones are just ethereal constructs that project imagery. It's probably much less taxing when you aren't going for indestructible barriers. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Research_Journal Reality manipulation/stealth is under chaos magic and since https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Stavemaster_Adryn teleports/portals it's likely part of Mind magic too. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > The Shadow of the Dragon existed before the death of Zhaitain. The smothering shadows are called that because they can be buffed by and disrupt Divine Fire. The spark of Ascension, which is another mental phenomena. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them. > > Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce. > > No, the **Dragon Tendrils** are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon. And while the Shadow of the Dragon existed **within the Dream** before Zhaitan's death, it did **_not_** exist in Tyria. The Shadow Tendrils are very different from Dragon Tendrils in that they are literally enwrapped in shadow. Their very existence is what prompted the player theories that Mordremoth ate Zhaitan's magic (which no doubt led to Anet going that route in the end thus creating confusion and potential plotholes). Are they attached to a creature with shadow in its name? Do they display any abilities of the domain? > > And Zhaitan doesn't control Nightmares. Nowhere do we ever see Aatxes under his employ. The closest we get is the Priest of Grenth utilizing the Temple of Grenth's magic to summon Shades. But in the same light, every temple was used to summon twisted variations of that god's magic. I believe he summons shadow fiends. Also what is an Orrian Scout. It says undead but it's entirely spectral. > > Zhaitan, however, as stated did control illusions and clones, which are the creation of refracting light... shadows, if you will. Zhaitan has had the heaviest use of mesmers among his forces than any other Elder Dragon. This may hint that half of mesmer's magic comes from Shadow Magic (whoever said that a profession is limited to one type of magic? Given Elementalists/Rangers using four types, no one!) Where does it say illusions are refracting light? Also, forgive me, but when did Zhaitan ever control clones except via servitor? No one is limited by type of magic, but they would be by school. Shadow wouldn't have been in two Bloodstones. It makes more sense for them to refine chaos magic. > > Furthermore, the Smothering Shadows are called such because they are literally shadows. And Divine Fire is more than part of Ascension which in turn is far more than mere mental phenomenal (it is literally the unlocking of one's potential and allowing them to see those who hide partway into the Mists like souls and mursaat; this is more soul-based than mind-based). They are definitely made of bark. Literal shadows are in Menzies army. And sight and one's potential while alive are both mind. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3. > > > > Source perhaps? And why did Mordremoth never do so? You would think influencing the more popular races would be important. > "I am not as I appear to you. This small body is but a manifestation I use to put visitors at ease. My entire being stretches deep into this world and out into the Dream. I am more than you can imagine." > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_the_Tree > Similar dialogue is said at the conclusion of each chapter 1 sylvari PC, and was mentioned in interviews and articles about the sylvari pre-release. She doesn't create the avatar to communicate, but to put visitors at ease. > > Mordremoth likely wouldn't have bothered because he doesn't want to convert like Jormag does, he wanted to enslave. > That makes no sense given that he must also convert Sylvari. If Mordremoth and the Pale Tree are telepathic its very limited outside close proximity, unless one is connected. Which brings us to.... > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Through Wyld Hunts on an empathic race. Why didn't he speak with other races? > Because his communication was through the Dream of Dreams, which other races lack. Then it's minor telepathy and major empathy. > By all evidence, he wouldn't be capable of communicating with Malyck's branch of sylvari either. > Ditto. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Well using the eternal alchemy to mix and match via an irreplacable invention is not a distinct flaw. It's interesting they say Mordremoth dominated thought. > That's not really what Taimi's Machine did, it was simply exposing the other to its weakness in beam energy form, the same way the Warbeast did to Kralkatorrik. No shaking or stirring required. One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom. > > Debatable, and all evidence points against your conclusion, but regardless of that much, Mordremoth still absorbed the magic himself. Magic that, by all means, should make **him** go boom based on the existence of the Unstable Abomination and how it was killed. > > Thus creating the massive contradiction that we have presented. The Unstable Abomination died due to a mixing of death and plant; Mordremoth mixed death and plant but suffered no ill side effects. The Unstable Abomination shows that death and plant were weak to each other; Novans and Forgotten proclaim every Elder Dragon have one specific unique weakness and that Mordremoth's was his mind while (per devs) Zhaitan's was his reliance on specialized minions. Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture. Also regardless of whether I correctly matched opposites or not we should have some idea of what's in the leftover domains. There aren't that many options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead **or creating a death touched creature.**" > > > > > > > > There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc. > > > > > > The first and second are basically normal minions who have a death shroud effect. That is 100% what [shadow Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Tendril) are. They're [Dragon Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_Tendril) (aka large [Jungle Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jungle_Tendril)) with shadow (and death?) magic in them. > > > > Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them. > > Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce. > > > > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does. > > > > > > > > You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Clones are physically separate from the "source". > > > Regardless of physical connection, [it's been confirmed that the dead cannot be used without Zhaitan's death sphere](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/493906/#Comment_493906). The same way Kralkatorrik can brand the dead and Primordus can make his minions green thanks to the death sphere, Mordremoth can clone the dead. They're all cases of Elder Dragons using the death (and shadow?) spheres. > > > > The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom. > > Ok so, why wasn’t Primordus making Risen and Mordrem then... why did Jormag make an Icebrood when he could have made a Risen or a Mordrem? > > Mordremoth is still using those energies though, he is using the death spectrum so he can make minions from the dead. > Kralkatorrik makes an undead minion to brand it. Mordremoth makes an undead minion to clone it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead **or creating a death touched creature.**" > > > > > > > > > > There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc. > > > > > > > > The first and second are basically normal minions who have a death shroud effect. That is 100% what [shadow Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Tendril) are. They're [Dragon Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_Tendril) (aka large [Jungle Tendrils](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jungle_Tendril)) with shadow (and death?) magic in them. > > > > > > Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them. > > > Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > > In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does. > > > > > > > > > > You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clones are physically separate from the "source". > > > > Regardless of physical connection, [it's been confirmed that the dead cannot be used without Zhaitan's death sphere](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/493906/#Comment_493906). The same way Kralkatorrik can brand the dead and Primordus can make his minions green thanks to the death sphere, Mordremoth can clone the dead. They're all cases of Elder Dragons using the death (and shadow?) spheres. > > > > > > The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom. > > > > Ok so, why wasn’t Primordus making Risen and Mordrem then... why did Jormag make an Icebrood when he could have made a Risen or a Mordrem? > > > > Mordremoth is still using those energies though, he is using the death spectrum so he can make minions from the dead. > > > > Kralkatorrik makes an undead minion to brand it. Mordremoth makes an undead minion to clone it. > I think we are over complicating things here. We have to remember what the dragon’s main spheres are. Mordremoth is plant and mind. He got use of the death sphere, which to me is simply a bonus sphere to work with. With Mordremoth, he can simply create a minion, aka Vinetooth or he can clone them, which is apparently his preferred method as it’s faster. I imagine in previous dragon rises, Mordremoth would have to capture prisoners as fuel for his minion creation. This is his given nature as the Jungle Dragon. The dead could not be placed in a Blighting pod to create minions. The ability to use the dead in minion creation was completely unique to Zhaitan. Fast forward to Gw2. Mordremoth absorbs a portion of the death sphere from Zhaitan as the other elder dragon’s got a piece too. He can now throw dead bodies into blister pods and create minions. Primordus doesn’t corrupt living things, at least what we have seen in game. So you would think giving Primordus the death sphere would go to waste. Instead he augments his minions with the death sphere. Kralkatorrik can now brand the dead as before he could not. Had he flown over a dead corpse before it would get crystallized much like the landscape. Jormag should now in theory be able to make Icebrood from the dead. DSD seems to have abilities like Primordus and can produce minions, I imagine the DSD will augment his minions with death magic as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Because water was moist/cold while fire was dry/hot. Not really. I mean, you have warm and hot water all the time. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > Are the Hylek/Thrashers using abilities of their species? Or spellcasting? You've established that animals aren't magicians. So that would include creatures like jaguars/vampire bat. Also, dark hallucinations and mind based stealth exist within the Mesmer discipline. > > > > The hylek do use the abilities of their species and what they were trained for (they're exact duplicates of their non-mordrem counterparts). Thrashers have no (known) non-mordrem counterpart... > > So no spellcasting outside Mordremoth domain. Hylek Mordrem use stealth and shadowstep, that's magic. Thrashers use life stealing, that's magic. Both of which are thief and necromancer traits, suggested to tie in directly to Zhaitan's spheres. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > I would not link the Mind domain to everything mesmers can do. There is an abnormal level of mesmers that focus on stealth and illusions within the risen - so much so that I would suspect that they, like thieves, utilize shadow magic. The telepathic and mental alterations of mesmers I would list under mind magic, but not the phantasms, clones, and other illusions which are altering the refraction of light in reality more than one's perception of reality. > > I don't see why not. > > Based on GWEN, illusion magic is about inducing the aether into hardening and/or directly influencing the mind. I would assume phantasms/clones are just ethereal constructs that project imagery. It's probably much less taxing when you aren't going for indestructible barriers. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Research_Journal > > Reality manipulation/stealth is under chaos magic and since https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Stavemaster_Adryn teleports/portals it's likely part of Mind magic too. The problem is that only refers to a small portion of mesmer magic, and most importantly, never touches things like phantasms and stealth which is the two primary forms mesmer magic that we see common across risen. Besides that, ether/aether (more often the former spelling than the latter) is suggested to be a raw form of magic, and not something unique to mesmer magic in the first place. Also, the fallacy in using Adryn in your argument is that as a post-Zhaitan's death Mordrem Guard, he could be using non-Mind and non-Plant magic. And as a Mordrem Guard, and therefore sylvari, he could utilize any form of magic. Hell, the presence of sylvari necromancers like Trahearne and Killeen are proof that plant and death shouldn't be canceling each other out. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Are they attached to a creature with shadow in its name? Do they display any abilities of the domain? The Shadow of the Dragon is named such because its first appearance was in the Dream of Dreams, where it was treated as the collective Elder Dragons' influence on Tyria as depicted by the Dream and Nightmare. Its name has **_nothing_** to do with literal shadows, nor does its nature beyond the metaphorical aspect. Mordremoth made it a real mordrem in Tyria, and while we see nothing referencing shadows in the first fight, we see it all over in the second fight even before the divine torch was used against it. These Shadow Tendrils are not directly connected to the Shadow of the Dragon, nor were the Dragon Tendrils (as the Shadow of the Dragon flies about), however, being _literally wrapped in magical shadow_ shows that yes, it shows abilities of the domain. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > I believe he summons shadow fiends. Also what is an Orrian Scout. It says undead but it's entirely spectral. Zhaitan himself does not summon shadow fiends. The only risen to do so is the Risen Priest of Grenth at the temple. Orrian Scouts have the appearance of Risen Drakes under the influence of [spectral Armor](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Armor "Spectral Armor"), which is the closest thing necromancy has to stealth. Nightmares are souls which have been tormented and twisted into animalistic forms. We see Dhuum turn a small army of humanoid souls into spider-shaped nightmares in Hall of Chains even. Risen are not Nightmares. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Where does it say illusions are refracting light? Also, forgive me, but when did Zhaitan ever control clones except via servitor? > > No one is limited by type of magic, but they would be by school. Shadow wouldn't have been in two Bloodstones. It makes more sense for them to refine chaos magic. Don't recall exactly where the refracting light came from, but it was S1 I believe. Where does Zhaitan have any direct show of magic except via servitor and the form of which their corruption takes? Or any Elder Dragon for that matter? People aren't really limited by schools though. Even by GW1 that limitation was bare. And given that magic was collectively put into one Bloodstone, we do not know how the spectrum of magic was divided into the schools - the two are not mutually exclusive nor are one confined to another outright. Especially given that we see necromancers use ice magic just as elementalists do. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > They are definitely made of bark. Literal shadows are in Menzies army. And sight and one's potential while alive are both mind. If you're referring to the wiki's image, the model that appears during the Shadow of the Dragon fight differs from the three models encountered during Hearts and Minds. The Shadow of the Dragon Smothering Shadows are, literally, mordrem menders in Death Shroud effect. Malformed Shadows are tiny Teragriffs in, similarly, the Death Shroud effect. Shadow Army are Nightmares, see above for what they are - not shadows. I disagree that the ability to _look partway into the Mists_ is mental and not spiritual. Everything about Ascension and Weh no Su is treated as spiritual. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3. > > > > > > Source perhaps? And why did Mordremoth never do so? You would think influencing the more popular races would be important. > > "I am not as I appear to you. This small body is but a manifestation I use to put visitors at ease. My entire being stretches deep into this world and out into the Dream. I am more than you can imagine." > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_the_Tree > > Similar dialogue is said at the conclusion of each chapter 1 sylvari PC, and was mentioned in interviews and articles about the sylvari pre-release. She doesn't create the avatar to communicate, but to put visitors at ease. > > > > Mordremoth likely wouldn't have bothered because he doesn't want to convert like Jormag does, he wanted to enslave. > > > > That makes no sense given that he must also convert Sylvari. If Mordremoth and the Pale Tree are telepathic its very limited outside close proximity, unless one is connected. Which brings us to.... > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > Through Wyld Hunts on an empathic race. Why didn't he speak with other races? > > Because his communication was through the Dream of Dreams, which other races lack. > > Then it's minor telepathy and major empathy. Mordremoth didn't convert willing servants. He brainwashed them, tricked them into believing his whispers were their own thoughts. In other words, Jormag whispers "Yo dawg, my name's Jormag and I heard you're looking for power. I can give it to you. You in?" in his own voice. While Mordremoth goes "Why are those guys looking at you funny? They don't trust you because you're sylvari. Sylvari were made to serve Mordremoth. I was made to serve Mordremoth. I should serve Mordremoth." in the victim's voice. Only when the attempt to convince sylvari that the whispers are their own thoughts fail does he go to more brute force methods that we witness as sylvari PCs in HoT. Occam and a few other NPCs comment on this throughout HoT. And then those he could, he just outright corrupted, like any non-Jormag Elder Dragon does. And it wasn't empathy. We **literally hear him using telepathy.** There's also [Dream and Nightmare](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_and_Nightmare) story bits which suggest that the Pale Tree is capable of direct telepathy too, not empathy. Empathy does seem to exist among sylvari with plants (and animals?) through the Dream, but the sharing of emotions is not literally whispering thoughts into someone's mind. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy. Given he still has a physical body (or bodies) he wouldn't be, but he wasn't affected by Taimi's Machine so why does that matter? > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture. But magic is absorbed through the body. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Also regardless of whether I correctly matched opposites or not we should have some idea of what's in the leftover domains. There aren't that many options. Honestly, there could be. Depends on if they stick to the common tropes or go less common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted June 18, 2018 Author Share Posted June 18, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Because water was moist/cold while fire was dry/hot. > Not really. I mean, you have warm and hot water all the time. Well of course. But the historical origins of the four elements is much earlier, and much less scientific, than the medieval era. They wanted it to map onto the four seasons. The correlation was definitely off, but at least they picked up on temperature and meteorological events. Air is hot/moist, and associated with spring Fire is hot/dry, and was associated with summer Earth is cold/dry, and was associated with autumn. Water is cold/moist and was associated with winter. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > Are the Hylek/Thrashers using abilities of their species? Or spellcasting? You've established that animals aren't magicians. So that would include creatures like jaguars/vampire bat. Also, dark hallucinations and mind based stealth exist within the Mesmer discipline. > > > > > > The hylek do use the abilities of their species and what they were trained for (they're exact duplicates of their non-mordrem counterparts). Thrashers have no (known) non-mordrem counterpart... > > > > So no spellcasting outside Mordremoth domain. > > Hylek Mordrem use stealth and shadowstep, that's magic. Thrashers use life stealing, that's magic. Both of which are thief and necromancer traits, suggested to tie in directly to Zhaitan's spheres. We train to spot the stealth techniques of the Coztic and other animals/plants/fungi, placing it closer to prowling/camouflage than melding with shadows/death. Vampire bats life steal and stepping/teleportation techniques occur naturally in smokescale/skelk. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > I would not link the Mind domain to everything mesmers can do. There is an abnormal level of mesmers that focus on stealth and illusions within the risen - so much so that I would suspect that they, like thieves, utilize shadow magic. The telepathic and mental alterations of mesmers I would list under mind magic, but not the phantasms, clones, and other illusions which are altering the refraction of light in reality more than one's perception of reality. > > > > I don't see why not. > > > > Based on GWEN, illusion magic is about inducing the aether into hardening and/or directly influencing the mind. I would assume phantasms/clones are just ethereal constructs that project imagery. It's probably much less taxing when you aren't going for indestructible barriers. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Research_Journal > > > > Reality manipulation/stealth is under chaos magic and since https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Stavemaster_Adryn teleports/portals it's likely part of Mind magic too. > > The problem is that only refers to a small portion of mesmer magic, and most importantly, never touches things like phantasms and stealth which is the two primary forms mesmer magic that we see common across risen. > It doesn't have to touch on phantasms because https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conjure_Phantasm already categorized them. It just had to establish that illusion magic can be solid. And while the refractive/reflective component of anything, as well as stealth, wasn't mentioned until GW2. That doesn't point to shadow magic. It points to an https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aetheric cloak which if Mesmers couldn't do on their own would be with faith magic. They use light/light fields to swift/reflect/steath (curtain and veil) and the stealth uses a prismatic understanding. A mixture could occur while everyone was learning a little preservation magic post GWEN, and perhaps Mesmers found out how to inspire invisibility. Illusions already bestowed 100% faith, getting light to comply shouldn't be that hard. > Besides that, ether/aether (more often the former spelling than the latter) is suggested to be a raw form of magic, and not something unique to mesmer magic in the first place. > It permeates the Mists and forms the Dream. It's probably closer to being a fifth element. Every mage, and aetheric assembly device, can construct substances from ether. Elementalists can recycle it from spells.Only mesmers directly induce it instead of conjuring from it. Probably because it's the mind that manipulates ether to begin with. > Also, the fallacy in using Adryn in your argument is that as a post-Zhaitan's death Mordrem Guard, he could be using non-Mind and non-Plant magic. And as a Mordrem Guard, and therefore sylvari, he could utilize any form of magic. Nature magic, elemental weaving, and chronos are the only ones who've bent gravity. And he is a clone of a Sylvari, the real Adryn died long ago. > > Hell, the presence of sylvari necromancers like Trahearne and Killeen are proof that plant and death shouldn't be canceling each other out. > Elementalists can weave together every element. And Kurzick Juggernauts exist. The opposition of spheres comes from the transformative aspect of corruption that is not present in regular magic. It eats at each other, creating ley instead of a mixture. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Are they attached to a creature with shadow in its name? Do they display any abilities of the domain? > > The Shadow of the Dragon is named such because its first appearance was in the Dream of Dreams, where it was treated as the collective Elder Dragons' influence on Tyria as depicted by the Dream and Nightmare. Its name has **_nothing_** to do with literal shadows, nor does its nature beyond the metaphorical aspect. > > Mordremoth made it a real mordrem in Tyria, and while we see nothing referencing shadows in the first fight, we see it all over in the second fight even before the divine torch was used against it. These Shadow Tendrils are not directly connected to the Shadow of the Dragon, nor were the Dragon Tendrils (as the Shadow of the Dragon flies about), however, being _literally wrapped in magical shadow_ shows that yes, it shows abilities of the Domain. It only occurred one time, in only one fight in LS2. Never again, not even as a reference by Taimi during her comments on absorption. We saw dark hallucinations to match the name of the enemy, not shadow magic. Those same creatures have a normal appearance in the later expansion, including our fight with Mordremoth. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Where does it say illusions are refracting light? Also, forgive me, but when did Zhaitan ever control clones except via servitor? > > > > No one is limited by type of magic, but they would be by school. Shadow wouldn't have been in two Bloodstones. It makes more sense for them to refine chaos magic. > Don't recall exactly where the refracting light came from, but it was S1 I believe. > > Where does Zhaitan have any direct show of magic except via servitor and the form of which their corruption takes? Or any Elder Dragon for that matter? Zhaitan does not make illusions during his fight with us. Mordremoth does. > > People aren't really limited by schools though. Even by GW1 that limitation was bare. And given that magic was collectively put into one Bloodstone, we do not know how the spectrum of magic was divided into the schools - the two are not mutually exclusive nor are one confined to another outright. Especially given that we see necromancers use ice magic just as elementalists do. The ice sphere has been split since core Gw1, elementalists do not separate it from water magic nor necromancers from death magic. Likewise for the fire sphere and elementalists/paragon/monks. Shadow was never split in Gw1. And Gw2 mirrors the illusion + fireball/doctorate explanation of Angel McCoy. There is indirect usage by nature magic/engineering. But there isn't active usage outside one's lane, especially not to the degree of the ice or fire split. People may have co-opted the techniques but the added stepping and dark fields are ostensibly not shadow. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3. > > > > > > > > Source perhaps? And why did Mordremoth never do so? You would think influencing the more popular races would be important. > > > "I am not as I appear to you. This small body is but a manifestation I use to put visitors at ease. My entire being stretches deep into this world and out into the Dream. I am more than you can imagine." > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_the_Tree > > > Similar dialogue is said at the conclusion of each chapter 1 sylvari PC, and was mentioned in interviews and articles about the sylvari pre-release. She doesn't create the avatar to communicate, but to put visitors at ease. > > > > > > Mordremoth likely wouldn't have bothered because he doesn't want to convert like Jormag does, he wanted to enslave. > > > > > > > That makes no sense given that he must also convert Sylvari. If Mordremoth and the Pale Tree are telepathic its very limited outside close proximity, unless one is connected. Which brings us to.... > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > Through Wyld Hunts on an empathic race. Why didn't he speak with other races? > > > Because his communication was through the Dream of Dreams, which other races lack. > > > > Then it's minor telepathy and major empathy. > Mordremoth didn't convert willing servants. He brainwashed them, tricked them into believing his whispers were their own thoughts. > > In other words, Jormag whispers "Yo dawg, my name's Jormag and I heard you're looking for power. I can give it to you. You in?" in his own voice. > > While Mordremoth goes "Why are those guys looking at you funny? They don't trust you because you're sylvari. Sylvari were made to serve Mordremoth. I was made to serve Mordremoth. I should serve Mordremoth." in the victim's voice. > > Only when the attempt to convince sylvari that the whispers are their own thoughts fail does he go to more brute force methods that we witness as sylvari PCs in HoT. Occam and a few other NPCs comment on this throughout HoT. > > And then those he could, he just outright corrupted, like any non-Jormag Elder Dragon does. > > And it wasn't empathy. We **literally hear him using telepathy.** There's also [Dream and Nightmare](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_and_Nightmare) story bits which suggest that the Pale Tree is capable of direct telepathy too, not empathy. > > Empathy does seem to exist among sylvari with plants (and animals?) through the Dream, but the sharing of emotions is not literally whispering thoughts into someone's mind. Empaths communicate using translated sensations to converse with plants and animals in the absence of thoughts. Mordremoth only spoke with plants from a distance using a link that passes feelings/experiences. Whether you call that telepathy or not, it was severely limited by distance. He/PT only converse with non-plant creatures when they are attached to the Dream, or in incredibly close proximity. It makes more sense mind bonds require eyesight to make temporarily, and touch to make permanent. So Jennah needed the window in Ebonhawke or Logan's hand. And Mordremoth didn't squandered an opportunity to influence thousands of possible soldiers. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy. > Given he still has a physical body (or bodies) he wouldn't be, but he wasn't affected by Taimi's Machine so why does that matter? Because it wouldn't be a weakness, his physical body could always be regrown. That being said I doubt the Forgotten fortold Omadd's machine and it's deus ex machina is gone, so it doesn't matter. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture. > But magic is absorbed through the body. Then perhaps the magic dragons release when they die isn't corruptive. It's what they cast and cover their bodies in. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Also regardless of whether I correctly matched opposites or not we should have some idea of what's in the leftover domains. There aren't that many options. > Honestly, there could be. Depends on if they stick to the common tropes or go less common Even with less common we just have to account for mortal spellcasters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > We train to spot the stealth techniques of the Coztic and other animals/plants/fungi, placing it closer to prowling/camouflage than melding with shadows/death. Vampire bats life steal and stepping/teleportation techniques occur naturally in smokescale/skelk. Mordrem Snipers, Hylek (even the Zintl Hylek), Quetzal, Vinetooths. They all have stealth abilities, but it doesn't seem to be "prowling/camouflage" since some can stealth in the middle of combat, and utilize similar techniques to thieves (particularly itzel hylek's means of stealthing mirrors [blinding Powder](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder"). I don't think they can just be attributed as cameleon-level stuff. As for the others: And? Because animals have mechanics which mirror spells, does not 1) negate them from being spells, and 2) does not mean other, completely unrelated creatures of magic have innate non-magical abilities that mirror but are not magical spells. You constantly say mordrem do not utilize death/shadow spheres because we see no death or shadow magic, and unlike risen the mordrem never utilize the original's abilities. I've provided multiple examples of all three cases, yet you argue "doesn't count!" Mordrem Guard Snipers, mordrem hylek, Vinetooths - they utilize stealth. Shadow magic. Mordrem Shadowleaper, Mordrem Guard Stalkers - they utilize shadowstepping. Shadow magic. Shadow Tendrils, Smothering Shadows, Malformed Shadows - they are literally covered in shadows. Shadow magic. Mordrem Guard Tormentors, Leeching Thrashers, Entanglers - they utilize necromancy (life steal, etc.). Death magic. Mordrem Restorers, Menders, Preservers, Healers, Heralds, Vinetenders, and Blocker - they use guardian/healing magic, not plant/mind magic. Corrupted Sylvari - some are elementalists, not plant/mind magic. There's plenty of examples that the mordrem themselves utilize shadow and death magic. That they're not limited to just plant and mind magic. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > It doesn't have to touch on phantasms because https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conjure_Phantasm already categorized them. It just had to establish that illusion magic can be solid. > > And while the refractive/reflective component of anything, as well as stealth, wasn't mentioned until GW2. That doesn't point to shadow magic. It points to an https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aetheric cloak which if Mesmers couldn't do on their own would be with faith magic. They use light/light fields to swift/reflect/steath (curtain and veil) and the stealth uses a prismatic understanding. A mixture could occur while everyone was learning a little preservation magic post GWEN, and perhaps Mesmers found out how to inspire invisibility. Illusions already bestowed 100% faith, getting light to comply shouldn't be that hard. Conjure Phantasm is messing with people's minds to see ghosts. It's not spawning illusionary phantasms as GW2 classifies them. I fail to see magic used via a golem is faith magic... I mean, it's asura magic for starters, which is pretty heavily not classified as guardian magic. Guardians may use "light magic", but it isn't the manipulation of visible/invisible light. Also, guardians do not stealth. And illusions are not faith. I don't even get where you come up with that. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > It permeates the Mists and forms the Dream. It's probably closer to being a fifth element. Every mage, and aetheric assembly device, can construct substances from ether. Elementalists can recycle it from spells.Only mesmers directly induce it instead of conjuring from it. Probably because it's the mind that manipulates ether to begin with. > > > Also, the fallacy in using Adryn in your argument is that as a post-Zhaitan's death Mordrem Guard, he could be using non-Mind and non-Plant magic. And as a Mordrem Guard, and therefore sylvari, he could utilize any form of magic. > > Nature magic, elemental weaving, and chronos are the only ones who've bent gravity. And he is a clone of a Sylvari, the real Adryn died long ago. Holy contradictions, batman! You've been arguing from the beginning that "mordrem do not use death/shadow magic!" And that they do not have their original abilitie.s This has been your argument since day 1. Now you're suddenly saying "oh, he could be using post-Zhaitan magic!" As to the aether stuff, we literally have no source on what aether/ether is in Tyria. Literally, no source. At all. The best we have is the Halloween scavenger hunt, that the Dream is partially made of it (though for all we know this could be non-literal), and a much-hated and already partially-contradicted interview with Angel McCoy, and Anet has stated that "non-official releases are pseudo-canon until in the game" meaning anything from that interview is subject to change. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Elementalists can weave together every element. And Kurzick Juggernauts exist. The opposition of spheres comes from the transformative aspect of corruption that is not present in regular magic. It eats at each other, creating ley instead of a mixture. And yet, Taimi proclaims that everyday magic is dragon magic. And yet, Season 3 that constantly presents these contradictions that I have been pointing out as being contradictions, proclaim that your argument should be false. Yet you say it isn't. You're not disagreeing with me here anymore, even though you started to. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > It only occurred one time, in only one fight in LS2. Never again, not even as a reference by Taimi during her comments on absorption. We saw dark hallucinations to match the name of the enemy, not shadow magic. Those same creatures have a normal appearance in the later expansion, including our fight with Mordremoth. It happens once. Means it happens. They're not hallucinations. They're physical entities we can smash with a blade. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Zhaitan does not make illusions during his fight with us. Mordremoth does. Not really. Firstly, those are not illusions. By either dictionary definition, or by GW magic meaning. They're manifestations of the mind in a mindscape. Secondly, because we're fighting in a mindscape, there's a case of "what you think of becomes reality", at least to a degree. With Mordremoth, this was the Blighted NPCs. They're not really illusions. Not in the same sense as mesmer magic. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > People aren't really limited by schools though. Even by GW1 that limitation was bare. And given that magic was collectively put into one Bloodstone, we do not know how the spectrum of magic was divided into the schools - the two are not mutually exclusive nor are one confined to another outright. Especially given that we see necromancers use ice magic just as elementalists do. > > The ice sphere has been split since core Gw1, elementalists do not separate it from water magic nor necromancers from death magic. Likewise for the fire sphere and elementalists/paragon/monks. > > Shadow was never split in Gw1. And Gw2 mirrors the illusion + fireball/doctorate explanation of Angel McCoy. > There is indirect usage by nature magic/engineering. But there isn't active usage outside one's lane, especially not to the degree of the ice or fire split. People may have co-opted the techniques but the added stepping and dark fields are ostensibly not shadow. I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. Ice magic was split between schools? That's more or less what I said. Shadow magic wasn't split between schools? Okay, sure... _maybe_. Your point? I said we don't know what the relation between the four schools and the supposed 12 spectrums is. Presuming that the two are two different classifications of all magic, then there will not only be multiple spectrums per school, but a heavy chance of spectrums being part of multiple schools. Even then, we have no evidence to proclaim that shadow magic was never split between multiple schools. In theory, necromancers, mesmers, and assassins all could have utilized it in some form. Equally in theory, mesmers may have only adopted it after schools had become so needless due to the excessive magic in the world, meaning that comparisons to GW1 is pointless. We know for a **fact** that magic had changed in the past 250 years due to more magic being in the ambient world than in the bloodstones. We know this had been a gradual change, and this is why dual professions were possible back in GW1. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Empaths communicate using translated sensations to converse with plants and animals in the absence of thoughts. Mordremoth only spoke with plants from a distance using a link that passes feelings/experiences. > > Whether you call that telepathy or not, it was severely limited by distance. He/PT only converse with non-plant creatures when they are attached to the Dream, or in incredibly close proximity. > > It makes more sense mind bonds require eyesight to make temporarily, and touch to make permanent. So Jennah needed the window in Ebonhawke or Logan's hand. And Mordremoth didn't squandered an opportunity to influence thousands of possible soldiers. Mordremoth didn't communicate using sensations though. _He used actual words._ > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy. > > Given he still has a physical body (or bodies) he wouldn't be, but he wasn't affected by Taimi's Machine so why does that matter? > > Because it wouldn't be a weakness, his physical body could always be regrown. That being said I doubt the Forgotten fortold Omadd's machine and it's deus ex machina is gone, so it doesn't matter. I don't think you understand what Taimi's Machine actually did. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture. > > But magic is absorbed through the body. > > Then perhaps the magic dragons release when they die isn't corruptive. It's what they cast and cover their bodies in. -points to Taimi's comment about all magic being dragon magic; points to the Unstable Abomination; points to Mordremoth still utilizing the death sphere- It got nothing to do with the magic beign corruptive. Obviously it would be in the same state whether Mordremoth ate it and used it to make minions, or Jormag ate it and used it to make minions. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Even with less common we just have to account for mortal spellcasters. Not really. After all, do you know any mortal that utilizes zephyrite skills-like magic, or crystal magic, without the aid of a dragon? And given that we see no relation between Jormag and Primordus' supposed second spheres besides ice, fire, and earth (the latter could be stretched to actually be Kralkatorrik's earth I guess) and their minions, thus cannot relate such to mortal magic, there's a wide scope of magic that is used by mortals but not by any dragon. This would suggest that there's more than 12 spheres of magic, and just that the Elder Dragons merely utilize a non-total amount of magical types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > We train to spot the stealth techniques of the Coztic and other animals/plants/fungi, placing it closer to prowling/camouflage than melding with shadows/death. Vampire bats life steal and stepping/teleportation techniques occur naturally in smokescale/skelk. > > Mordrem Snipers, Hylek (even the Zintl Hylek), Quetzal, Vinetooths. They all have stealth abilities, but it doesn't seem to be "prowling/camouflage" since some can stealth in the middle of combat, and utilize similar techniques to thieves (particularly itzel hylek's means of stealthing mirrors [blinding Powder](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder"). I don't think they can just be attributed as cameleon-level stuff. > > As for the others: And? Because animals have mechanics which mirror spells, does not 1) negate them from being spells, and 2) does not mean other, completely unrelated creatures of magic have innate non-magical abilities that mirror but are not magical spells. > > You constantly say mordrem do not utilize death/shadow spheres because we see no death or shadow magic, and unlike risen the mordrem never utilize the original's abilities. I've provided multiple examples of all three cases, yet you argue "doesn't count!" > > Mordrem Guard Snipers, mordrem hylek, Vinetooths - they utilize stealth. Shadow magic. > Mordrem Shadowleaper, Mordrem Guard Stalkers - they utilize shadowstepping. Shadow magic. > Shadow Tendrils, Smothering Shadows, Malformed Shadows - they are literally covered in shadows. Shadow magic. > Mordrem Guard Tormentors, Leeching Thrashers, Entanglers - they utilize necromancy (life steal, etc.). Death magic. > Mordrem Restorers, Menders, Preservers, Healers, Heralds, Vinetenders, and Blocker - they use guardian/healing magic, not plant/mind magic. > Corrupted Sylvari - some are elementalists, not plant/mind magic. > > There's plenty of examples that the mordrem themselves utilize shadow and death magic. That they're not limited to just plant and mind magic. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > It doesn't have to touch on phantasms because https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conjure_Phantasm already categorized them. It just had to establish that illusion magic can be solid. > > > > And while the refractive/reflective component of anything, as well as stealth, wasn't mentioned until GW2. That doesn't point to shadow magic. It points to an https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aetheric cloak which if Mesmers couldn't do on their own would be with faith magic. They use light/light fields to swift/reflect/steath (curtain and veil) and the stealth uses a prismatic understanding. A mixture could occur while everyone was learning a little preservation magic post GWEN, and perhaps Mesmers found out how to inspire invisibility. Illusions already bestowed 100% faith, getting light to comply shouldn't be that hard. > > Conjure Phantasm is messing with people's minds to see ghosts. It's not spawning illusionary phantasms as GW2 classifies them. > > I fail to see magic used via a golem is faith magic... I mean, it's asura magic for starters, which is pretty heavily not classified as guardian magic. Guardians may use "light magic", but it isn't the manipulation of visible/invisible light. Also, guardians do not stealth. And illusions are not faith. I don't even get where you come up with that. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > It permeates the Mists and forms the Dream. It's probably closer to being a fifth element. Every mage, and aetheric assembly device, can construct substances from ether. Elementalists can recycle it from spells.Only mesmers directly induce it instead of conjuring from it. Probably because it's the mind that manipulates ether to begin with. > > > > > Also, the fallacy in using Adryn in your argument is that as a post-Zhaitan's death Mordrem Guard, he could be using non-Mind and non-Plant magic. And as a Mordrem Guard, and therefore sylvari, he could utilize any form of magic. > > > > Nature magic, elemental weaving, and chronos are the only ones who've bent gravity. And he is a clone of a Sylvari, the real Adryn died long ago. > Holy contradictions, batman! > > You've been arguing from the beginning that "mordrem do not use death/shadow magic!" And that they do not have their original abilitie.s This has been your argument since day 1. Now you're suddenly saying "oh, he could be using post-Zhaitan magic!" > > As to the aether stuff, we literally have no source on what aether/ether is in Tyria. Literally, no source. At all. > > The best we have is the Halloween scavenger hunt, that the Dream is partially made of it (though for all we know this could be non-literal), and a much-hated and already partially-contradicted interview with Angel McCoy, and Anet has stated that "non-official releases are pseudo-canon until in the game" meaning anything from that interview is subject to change. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Elementalists can weave together every element. And Kurzick Juggernauts exist. The opposition of spheres comes from the transformative aspect of corruption that is not present in regular magic. It eats at each other, creating ley instead of a mixture. > > And yet, Taimi proclaims that everyday magic is dragon magic. And yet, Season 3 that constantly presents these contradictions that I have been pointing out as being contradictions, proclaim that your argument should be false. Yet you say it isn't. > > You're not disagreeing with me here anymore, even though you started to. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > It only occurred one time, in only one fight in LS2. Never again, not even as a reference by Taimi during her comments on absorption. We saw dark hallucinations to match the name of the enemy, not shadow magic. Those same creatures have a normal appearance in the later expansion, including our fight with Mordremoth. > > It happens once. Means it happens. > > They're not hallucinations. They're physical entities we can smash with a blade. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Zhaitan does not make illusions during his fight with us. Mordremoth does. > Not really. Firstly, those are not illusions. By either dictionary definition, or by GW magic meaning. They're manifestations of the mind in a mindscape. Secondly, because we're fighting in a mindscape, there's a case of "what you think of becomes reality", at least to a degree. With Mordremoth, this was the Blighted NPCs. > > They're not really illusions. Not in the same sense as mesmer magic. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > People aren't really limited by schools though. Even by GW1 that limitation was bare. And given that magic was collectively put into one Bloodstone, we do not know how the spectrum of magic was divided into the schools - the two are not mutually exclusive nor are one confined to another outright. Especially given that we see necromancers use ice magic just as elementalists do. > > > > The ice sphere has been split since core Gw1, elementalists do not separate it from water magic nor necromancers from death magic. Likewise for the fire sphere and elementalists/paragon/monks. > > > > Shadow was never split in Gw1. And Gw2 mirrors the illusion + fireball/doctorate explanation of Angel McCoy. > > There is indirect usage by nature magic/engineering. But there isn't active usage outside one's lane, especially not to the degree of the ice or fire split. People may have co-opted the techniques but the added stepping and dark fields are ostensibly not shadow. > > I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. Ice magic was split between schools? That's more or less what I said. Shadow magic wasn't split between schools? Okay, sure... _maybe_. Your point? > > I said we don't know what the relation between the four schools and the supposed 12 spectrums is. Presuming that the two are two different classifications of all magic, then there will not only be multiple spectrums per school, but a heavy chance of spectrums being part of multiple schools. > > Even then, we have no evidence to proclaim that shadow magic was never split between multiple schools. In theory, necromancers, mesmers, and assassins all could have utilized it in some form. Equally in theory, mesmers may have only adopted it after schools had become so needless due to the excessive magic in the world, meaning that comparisons to GW1 is pointless. > > We know for a **fact** that magic had changed in the past 250 years due to more magic being in the ambient world than in the bloodstones. We know this had been a gradual change, and this is why dual professions were possible back in GW1. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Empaths communicate using translated sensations to converse with plants and animals in the absence of thoughts. Mordremoth only spoke with plants from a distance using a link that passes feelings/experiences. > > > > Whether you call that telepathy or not, it was severely limited by distance. He/PT only converse with non-plant creatures when they are attached to the Dream, or in incredibly close proximity. > > > > It makes more sense mind bonds require eyesight to make temporarily, and touch to make permanent. So Jennah needed the window in Ebonhawke or Logan's hand. And Mordremoth didn't squandered an opportunity to influence thousands of possible soldiers. > > Mordremoth didn't communicate using sensations though. _He used actual words._ > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy. > > > Given he still has a physical body (or bodies) he wouldn't be, but he wasn't affected by Taimi's Machine so why does that matter? > > > > Because it wouldn't be a weakness, his physical body could always be regrown. That being said I doubt the Forgotten fortold Omadd's machine and it's deus ex machina is gone, so it doesn't matter. > > I don't think you understand what Taimi's Machine actually did. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture. > > > But magic is absorbed through the body. > > > > Then perhaps the magic dragons release when they die isn't corruptive. It's what they cast and cover their bodies in. > > -points to Taimi's comment about all magic being dragon magic; points to the Unstable Abomination; points to Mordremoth still utilizing the death sphere- > > It got nothing to do with the magic beign corruptive. Obviously it would be in the same state whether Mordremoth ate it and used it to make minions, or Jormag ate it and used it to make minions. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Even with less common we just have to account for mortal spellcasters. > > Not really. After all, do you know any mortal that utilizes zephyrite skills-like magic, or crystal magic, without the aid of a dragon? And given that we see no relation between Jormag and Primordus' supposed second spheres besides ice, fire, and earth (the latter could be stretched to actually be Kralkatorrik's earth I guess) and their minions, thus cannot relate such to mortal magic, there's a wide scope of magic that is used by mortals but not by any dragon. > > This would suggest that there's more than 12 spheres of magic, and just that the Elder Dragons merely utilize a non-total amount of magical types. I think if we start seeing branded stealthing and shadow stepping, Konig, we can confirm generally what the Shadow Magic sphere looks like, the same can be said for other dragon minions as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted June 22, 2018 Author Share Posted June 22, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > We train to spot the stealth techniques of the Coztic and other animals/plants/fungi, placing it closer to prowling/camouflage than melding with shadows/death. Vampire bats life steal and stepping/teleportation techniques occur naturally in smokescale/skelk. > > Mordrem Snipers, Hylek (even the Zintl Hylek), Quetzal, Vinetooths. They all have stealth abilities, but it doesn't seem to be "prowling/camouflage" since some can stealth in the middle of combat, and utilize similar techniques to thieves (particularly itzel hylek's means of stealthing mirrors [blinding Powder](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder"). I don't think they can just be attributed as cameleon-level stuff. And it is spotted like mushrooms etc all the same while stealth elsewhere goes unnoticed. > > As for the others: And? Because animals have mechanics which mirror spells, does not 1) negate them from being spells, and 2) does not mean other, completely unrelated creatures of magic have innate non-magical abilities that mirror but are not magical spells.' > > You constantly say mordrem do not utilize death/shadow spheres because we see no death or shadow magic, and unlike risen the mordrem never utilize the original's abilities. I've provided multiple examples of all three cases, yet you argue "doesn't count!" Learned spellcasting abilities, not the biological adaptation of the local flora/fauna, or life/mind. Zhaitain was obvious, and across all schools. Joko's not even an Elder Dragon and he performs much better than Mordremoth. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > It doesn't have to touch on phantasms because https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conjure_Phantasm already categorized them. It just had to establish that illusion magic can be solid. > > > > And while the refractive/reflective component of anything, as well as stealth, wasn't mentioned until GW2. That doesn't point to shadow magic. It points to an https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aetheric cloak which if Mesmers couldn't do on their own would be with faith magic. They use light/light fields to swift/reflect/steath (curtain and veil) and the stealth uses a prismatic understanding. A mixture could occur while everyone was learning a little preservation magic post GWEN, and perhaps Mesmers found out how to inspire invisibility. Illusions already bestowed 100% faith, getting light to comply shouldn't be that hard. > > Conjure Phantasm is messing with people's minds to see ghosts. It's not spawning illusionary phantasms as GW2 classifies them. That was retconned around the same time as the calendar getting 5 days. Now illusions always existed outside the mind and making an individual see a ghost is secret high-level stuff known only by the Mesmer Collective. As a result, the Shrines of Lyssa summons phantasm, some of which even teleport and life steal. As well as summoning portals. > > I fail to see magic used via a golem is faith magic... I mean, it's asura magic for starters, which is pretty heavily not classified as guardian magic. Guardians may use "light magic", but it isn't the manipulation of visible/invisible light. Also, guardians do not stealth. And illusions are not faith. I don't even get where you come up with that. Whether or not magic replicated by alchemy has an alternative classification, the reality is that you can use aether to bend light to achieve stealth. Mesmer stealth is based on a prismatic understanding, and light. Thief stealth is based on shadow forms and darkness. In the unlikely instance Mesmers couldn't shape an aetheric cloak that bent light, they could inspire themselves with the belief they/others are invisible and have faith in that. Guardians use mystic tomes, etc for the memories, Mesmers can manufacte them. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > It permeates the Mists and forms the Dream. It's probably closer to being a fifth element. Every mage, and aetheric assembly device, can construct substances from ether. Elementalists can recycle it from spells.Only mesmers directly induce it instead of conjuring from it. Probably because it's the mind that manipulates ether to begin with. > > > > > Also, the fallacy in using Adryn in your argument is that as a post-Zhaitan's death Mordrem Guard, he could be using non-Mind and non-Plant magic. And as a Mordrem Guard, and therefore sylvari, he could utilize any form of magic. > > > > Nature magic, elemental weaving, and chronos are the only ones who've bent gravity. And he is a clone of a Sylvari, the real Adryn died long ago. > Holy contradictions, batman! > > You've been arguing from the beginning that "mordrem do not use death/shadow magic!" And that they do not have their original abilitie.s This has been your argument since day 1. Now you're suddenly saying "oh, he could be using post-Zhaitan magic! ??? The Legendary clones died long ago and are constantly remade. They all have powers not held by regular mortals that are mind/plant in nature. So does Adryn, I don't see the confusion. > > As to the aether stuff, we literally have no source on what aether/ether is in Tyria. Literally, no source. At all. > > The best we have is the Halloween scavenger hunt, that the Dream is partially made of it (though for all we know this could be non-literal), and a much-hated and already partially-contradicted interview with Angel McCoy, and Anet has stated that "non-official releases are pseudo-canon until in the game" meaning anything from that interview is subject to change. > Distortion works by focusing the aether around oneself. There were elementals from it. The aetheric assembly device uses it to construct matter and other aetheric devices use it for teleportation or stealth. I don't see why this interview would be pseudo-canon: > In Tyria, “aether” refers to the metaphysical substance that occupies the spaces between matter and energy; analogous to the vacuum of space between planets as well as the space between protons and neutrons (if said vacuum of space had a magical presence to it). It is not a definable and measurable thing like ley lines, which represent the actual flow of magical energy through and across Tyria. > > As such, aether is one aspect of the magic mortals or Elder Dragons use. It is part of the magical/physical structure of the universe, but unavailable for direct study—sort of like dark matter: there is something there, a presence that includes a magical aspect, which we can observe and verify from the effects it produces, but so far no one can reproducibly locate, measure, or study it. They’ve only learned how to tap it. If tapping a source of power you don’t entirely understand sounds dangerous to you, that’s because it is. It's a raw magical substance found in, not made of, raw magic. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Elementalists can weave together every element. And Kurzick Juggernauts exist. The opposition of spheres comes from the transformative aspect of corruption that is not present in regular magic. It eats at each other, creating ley instead of a mixture. > > And yet, Taimi proclaims that everyday magic is dragon magic. And yet, Season 3 that constantly presents these contradictions that I have been pointing out as being contradictions, proclaim that your argument should be false. Yet you say it isn't. And everyday squares are rectangles. It's not a contradiction. It's a categorical grouping. > > You're not disagreeing with me here anymore, even though you started to. I don't believe I did to begin with. We just switched back and forth between calling it spheres or magic too many times. I don't think a Mordrem will die when exposed to or casting ambient/bloodstone death or shadow magic. But using the corruptive spheres are another matter. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > It only occurred one time, in only one fight in LS2. Never again, not even as a reference by Taimi during her comments on absorption. We saw dark hallucinations to match the name of the enemy, not shadow magic. Those same creatures have a normal appearance in the later expansion, including our fight with Mordremoth. > > It happens once. Means it happens. > > They're not hallucinations. They're physical entities we can smash with a blade. No. You struck the plants. Which are just as solid as any other of their kind in HoT. Your blade did not catch on the nightmarish aura, the shadowy substance did not touch you, nor did these creatures shadowstep or stealth. They are as much shadow as the bioluminescent thrashers are death. ANET went with the animation they had. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Zhaitan does not make illusions during his fight with us. Mordremoth does. > Not really. Firstly, those are not illusions. By either dictionary definition, or by GW magic meaning. They're manifestations of the mind in a mindscape. Secondly, because we're fighting in a mindscape, there's a case of "what you think of becomes reality", at least to a degree. With Mordremoth, this was the Blighted NPCs. If we're going by dictionary definition then his mastery of the occipital lobe suffices. The control over the other lobes/Blighted NPCs is extra. Otherwise Pale Tree's summoning avatars in and out of the dream without having absorbed death or shadow is enough. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > People aren't really limited by schools though. Even by GW1 that limitation was bare. And given that magic was collectively put into one Bloodstone, we do not know how the spectrum of magic was divided into the schools - the two are not mutually exclusive nor are one confined to another outright. Especially given that we see necromancers use ice magic just as elementalists do. > > > > The ice sphere has been split since core Gw1, elementalists do not separate it from water magic nor necromancers from death magic. Likewise for the fire sphere and elementalists/paragon/monks. > > > > Shadow was never split in Gw1. And Gw2 mirrors the illusion + fireball/doctorate explanation of Angel McCoy. > > There is indirect usage by nature magic/engineering. But there isn't active usage outside one's lane, especially not to the degree of the ice or fire split. People may have co-opted the techniques but the added stepping and dark fields are ostensibly not shadow. > > I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. Ice magic was split between schools? That's more or less what I said. Shadow magic wasn't split between schools? Okay, sure... _maybe_. Your point? > > I said we don't know what the relation between the four schools and the supposed 12 spectrums is. Presuming that the two are two different classifications of all magic, then there will not only be multiple spectrums per school, but a heavy chance of spectrums being part of multiple schools. > > Even then, we have no evidence to proclaim that shadow magic was never split between multiple schools. In theory, necromancers, mesmers, and assassins all could have utilized it in some form. Equally in theory, mesmers may have only adopted it after schools had become so needless due to the excessive magic in the world, meaning that comparisons to GW1 is pointless. We know for a **fact** that magic had changed in the past 250 years due to more magic being in the ambient world than in the bloodstones. We know this had been a gradual change, and this is why dual professions were possible back in GW1. Dual professions didn't mix skills and were phased out as education grew more complex. During this point people willingly adopted simple healing magic. There is no simple shadowstepping/stealth. Unless dark energy manipulation is somehow essential to stepping, teleportation, or invisibility there is no reason to learn shadow magic beyond the techniques. It easier to just cast things with the set of energies one spent decades taming. And it goes both ways. Deadeye doesn't alter their senses with mind magic because they found a way with shadow. As far as how the spectrum fits into school I have a theory. The fenstone contained a lunacy inducing, space-time warping, crystal generating magenta magic that could diverge into five spheres https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Magic resembling the conditions chaos storms/winds/vortexes posses. 250 years ago chaos abilities were just a part of domination magic and the non-mind parts weren't evident. Perhaps each school is defined by the spectrums in high concentration. Humans can't filter magic as well as chak so much smaller amounts of other domains could get included without anyone noticing until more ambient magic reveals their presence in previous spells. This would allow elite specializations to be specializations within one discipline while enabling the effects to branch out without another doctorate. Eg Firebrand didn't learn elementalist magic to conjure water. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Empaths communicate using translated sensations to converse with plants and animals in the absence of thoughts. Mordremoth only spoke with plants from a distance using a link that passes feelings/experiences. > > > > Whether you call that telepathy or not, it was severely limited by distance. He/PT only converse with non-plant creatures when they are attached to the Dream, or in incredibly close proximity. > > > > It makes more sense mind bonds require eyesight to make temporarily, and touch to make permanent. So Jennah needed the window in Ebonhawke or Logan's hand. And Mordremoth didn't squandered an opportunity to influence thousands of possible soldiers. > > Mordremoth didn't communicate using sensations though. _He used actual words._ Jormag and Glint & co send words. Mordremoth didn't speak in a fake accent, he sent the sensation of a Wyld Hunt and used it to hijack our internal monologue. It was mind control being used to achieve telepathy. Thoughts aren't inherent motivators, and the other beings he controls, like insects, wolves, plants, etc, don't have them. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy. > > > Given he still has a physical body (or bodies) he wouldn't be, but he wasn't affected by Taimi's Machine so why does that matter? > > > > Because it wouldn't be a weakness, his physical body could always be regrown. That being said I doubt the Forgotten fortold Omadd's machine and it's deus ex machina is gone, so it doesn't matter. > > I don't think you understand what Taimi's Machine actually did. It reversed their energies using the Eternal Alchemy and sent them towards the bodies of the opposite dragons. That would not work on Mordremoth. > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture. > > > But magic is absorbed through the body. > > > > Then perhaps the magic dragons release when they die isn't corruptive. It's what they cast and cover their bodies in. > > -points to Taimi's comment about all magic being dragon magic; points to the Unstable Abomination; points to Mordremoth still utilizing the death sphere- > > It got nothing to do with the magic beign corruptive. Obviously it would be in the same state whether Mordremoth ate it and used it to make minions, or Jormag ate it and used it to make minions. > All squares are rectangles. The Unstable Abomination wasn't exuded on sleep or death. His mind is not his body, and what he learns is not added beyond plant/mind. Similarly Kralkatorik resurrects, brands, and hive minds his minions. He doesn't add plant or shadow. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Even with less common we just have to account for mortal spellcasters. > > Not really. After all, do you know any mortal that utilizes zephyrite skills-like magic, or crystal magic, without the aid of a dragon? And given that we see no relation between Jormag and Primordus' supposed second spheres besides ice, fire, and earth (the latter could be stretched to actually be Kralkatorrik's earth I guess) and their minions, thus cannot relate such to mortal magic, there's a wide scope of magic that is used by mortals but not by any dragon. Druids move as wisps of light. Updrafts and riding the lightning are staples of air. Mirages/Earth elementalists are crystal users. Drakkar's whispers and disrupts Jora/Svanir connection to Bear, the Wolf Havroun spirit is bound by SoS. Binding rituals are part of preservation. The opposite of spirit is lifeless substance, and Primordius minions are spawned without conversion or growth. Just like Elemental conjures/constructs from destruction. There isn't going to be a 1:1 in animations between mortals and Dragons, but we can get the effects and themes down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > All squares are rectangles. The Unstable Abomination wasn't exuded on sleep or death. His mind is not his body, and what he learns is not added beyond plant/mind. Similarly Kralkatorik resurrects, brands, and hive minds his minions. He doesn't add plant or shadow. We haven’t seen Kralkatorrik make use of plant or shadow magic yet. If we start seeing branded shadowsrep or stealth, which is an attribute that the branded lacked previous then we will know he has made use of shadow magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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