My opinion about raids

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

>It's funny because you sound so entitled, Ohoni. Do you really think you have any right to decide anything?

 

I have a right to decide what I do and don't support. That's about it. So do you. You have the right to either get in the way of other players, or help them out. Only you can decide what to do with that right.

 

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

>You don't even need a commander to open a raid and make your own squad via lfg.

 

Don't confuse a "barrier of entry" with "the bare minimum to get through the door." The "barrier of entry" means the requirements needed to actually *successfully complete* the content, not just to pound your face futilely against it.

 

>I just fail to see how any of this is a steep barrier of entry.

 

Then just accept that what may not seem steep to you, does not mean that it's not steep to others, or that they are incorrect for seeing it differently than you do.

 

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

>It does. My vote has same power as yours. And i dont want more gold from raids. If I wanted gold i would do istan.

 

Ok, then don't complain about the cost? I don't know how to help you here, I want you to be happy with what you've got, *and* I want you to be happy with what I want to have. If you aren't fine with what you've got, then I want to help you get there, all I'm asking for is the same consideration.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> >You don't even need a commander to open a raid and make your own squad via lfg.

>

> Don't confuse a "barrier of entry" with "the bare minimum to get through the door." The "barrier of entry" means the requirements needed to actually *successfully >complete* the content, not just to pound your face futilely against it.

 

You can successfully complete the content with training groups. While they might struggle with W5, they do kill older bosses quite regularly. Not necessarily first try, but they do. Most training groups have a few experienced players willing to help.

Would you say that joining a guild is a steep barrier? Or what else do you think you have to do in order to join a raid?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> You can successfully complete the content with training groups.

 

People keep saying this, and yet people keep struggling with it. Can't we just agree that the content is harder than some players enjoy, and that while itn works for you, and should remain as it is for you, other players might *genuinely enjoy* an alternative?

 

>Would you say that joining a guild is a steep barrier?

 

Obviously.

 

>Or what else do you think you have to do in order to join a raid?

 

Log in, see "Quick raid run, Sabetha" on the LFG, click it, go in, clear it first or second attempt in under an hour or so (ideally much less than that).

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> >It's funny because you sound so entitled, Ohoni. Do you really think you have any right to decide anything?

>

> I have a right to decide what I do and don't support. That's about it. So do you. You have the right to either get in the way of other players, or help them out. Only you can decide what to do with that right.

>

> > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> >You don't even need a commander to open a raid and make your own squad via lfg.

>

> Don't confuse a "barrier of entry" with "the bare minimum to get through the door." The "barrier of entry" means the requirements needed to actually *successfully complete* the content, not just to pound your face futilely against it.

>

> >I just fail to see how any of this is a steep barrier of entry.

>

> Then just accept that what may not seem steep to you, does not mean that it's not steep to others, or that they are incorrect for seeing it differently than you do.

>

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> >It does. My vote has same power as yours. And i dont want more gold from raids. If I wanted gold i would do istan.

>

> Ok, then don't complain about the cost? I don't know how to help you here, I want you to be happy with what you've got, *and* I want you to be happy with what I want to have. If you aren't fine with what you've got, then I want to help you get there, all I'm asking for is the same consideration.

 

You dont understand. I do not complain. I am fine with raids as they are. But if tvey did your idea (give acces to all raid skins without raids) i would probably leave. And it is not because i dont want others to have it. It is because that would make a statement that anet will do more stuff for casual players then for dedicated players. There would be no goal to work for for more tryhard players.

Raids are harder the OW yet with this change there would be no reward. No raider ask for 15 golds for boss (and that would be fair reward for it). That would cause much more outrage. The curent system where rewards for raids are accountbound works much better.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> You dont understand. I do not complain. I am fine with raids as they are. But if tvey did your idea (give acces to all raid skins without raids) i would probably leave.

 

Well, that's sad.

 

>It is because that would make a statement that anet will do more stuff for casual players then for dedicated players.

 

But I am dedicated. Probably as dedicated as you are. I'm in the "over 4000 hours" camp, higher than 83% of the Efficiency population. "Casual" is not opposed to "dedication," "casual" can mean many different things depending on context. Players who are "gameplay casual" can be very dedicated, they are just dedicated to a casual experience.

 

>There would be no goal to work for for more tryhard players.

 

Sure there would, the exact same goals that are in right now. They would be no easier to achieve, the casual methods would take longer to accomplish, so tryhards would always have them much faster and for longer. More importantly, even after the casuals have their armor, *you* would know what *you* did you earn *yours,* and ultimately, that's *all* that matters, not what other people have.

 

>Raids are harder the OW yet with this change there would be no reward.

 

Again, no rewards would be removed from raids. Everything you could earn there now, you would continue to earn there, and if anyone else could get them, it would take them longer. By the time they have whatever you have now, you would be on to whatever rewards are going to be added in a year from now.

 

>No raider ask for 15 golds for boss (and that would be fair reward for it). That would cause much more outrage. The curent system where rewards for raids are accountbound works much better.

 

I would MUCH rather that raiders get 15 gold per boss\* than for them to have exclusive access to any skins. I'm almost certain that *most* players would agree on that.

 

\* I will note the caveat that this much *liquid* gold might have economic implications, but if it were in materials or something? Sure, ok, whatever.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> People keep saying this, and yet people keep struggling with it. Can't we just agree that the content is harder than some players enjoy, and that while itn works for you, >and should remain as it is for you, other players might *genuinely enjoy* an alternative?

 

So you basically want raids not be raids? Raids are supposed to be the hardest content in the game.

The alternative for those players are Open World, Dungeons and Fractals.

You want easy mode Raids? Thats fine. Just get the Open World Team to rebalance the bosses, dont give LI, dont give achievements and have a reduced chance on Minipets and ascended equipment.

 

> >Would you say that joining a guild is a steep barrier?

>

> Obviously.

 

If that's really considered a steep barrier, I can't help people anymore. It's an MMORPG. You are literally supposed to socialize in one way or another.

The game gives you 5 guild slots to fill. Cant be that hard.

 

> >Or what else do you think you have to do in order to join a raid?

>

> Log in, see "Quick raid run, Sabetha" on the LFG, click it, go in, clear it first or second attempt in under an hour or so (ideally much less than that).

 

I often do that throughout the week. People just add 150LI or whatever to it.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I would MUCH rather that raiders get 15 gold per boss\* than for them to have exclusive access to any skins. I'm almost certain that *most* players would agree on that.

 

I very much doubt that.

First, there are raiders who have lots and lots of gold. Getting extra 10 per boss doesn't really mean anything to them.

There are also those who will (rightfully) point out the higher liquid gold rewards will draw in more newbies to raids. While this can be good in itself, the players to point that out won't be particularly happy because it will mean more newbies joining their groups and causing wipes. This happened in WvW when the pip system was introduced, and it happened again in pretty much the same manner on this week's reset because of the extra WXP event.

In effect you're proposing to trade something actually valuable (exclusivity) to a basic commodity (gold). Let me ask you a question - do you know how much Dhuum's throne toy sells for on the TP?

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

> > >

> >

> > What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

>

> He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

 

I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

 

I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

 

So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose **not** to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

 

So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @"TexZero.7910" can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

[nia.4725]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

> >

> > He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

>

> I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

>

> I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

>

> So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose **not** to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

>

> So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @"TexZero.7910" can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

 

It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

 

Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

 

When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

 

In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

 

If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

> >

> > He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

>

> I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

>

> I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

>

> So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose **not** to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

>

> So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @"TexZero.7910" can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

 

Because raid keep us playing in this form. If you decide to change the very core idea of them (hardest content that require teamwork, focus, knowlage and builds that make sence to finish and reward unique rewards for those that do) then it wouldnt be the same

[STIHL.2489]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

> > >

> > > He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

> >

> > I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

> >

> > I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

> >

> > So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose **not** to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

> >

> > So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @"TexZero.7910" can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

>

> It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

>

> Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

>

> When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

>

> In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

>

> If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

 

Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static to do some bosses.. because.. well issues with Pugs.. do you really think you are alone with that issue?

 

When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

 

Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

> > > >

> > > > He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

> > >

> > > I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

> > >

> > > I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

> > >

> > > So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose **not** to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

> > >

> > > So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @"TexZero.7910" can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

> >

> > It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

> >

> > Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

> >

> > When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

> >

> > In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

> >

> > If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

>

> Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static till what.. 3 years and I have no idea how many raids later before you would be willing to pug.

>

> When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

>

> Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

 

That's actually how i started, did some trainings, pugged a lot, then joined a static. I still pug a lot.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

> > > >

> > > > He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

> > >

> > > I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

> > >

> > > I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

> > >

> > > So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose **not** to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

> > >

> > > So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @"TexZero.7910" can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

> >

> > It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

> >

> > Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

> >

> > When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

> >

> > In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

> >

> > If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

>

> Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static till what.. 3 years and I have no idea how many raids later before you would be willing to pug.

>

> When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

>

> Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

 

It might come as a surprise, but I raided for a long time before joining an actual static. Nowadays I find myself pugging once again, because my static is going through a particularly rough time. Some people quit, some people rarely can make it on time and our raid sessions often get delayed or cancelled, and most often involve pugging. As a result, we often don't even clear W1-4 like we used to. So what do I do? I open LFG and raid. What else would I do?

[Linken.6345]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> I’ve heard you claim this before Butcher, but I’m curious on a couple things:

>

> A ) did you get an insta 80 boost, as you would have had to play open world to obviously get to 80?

>

> B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

 

A s/he could have leveled by wvw at the start of the game without setting fot in ow after level 2 or now they could level by spvp from useing tomes so not so obviously.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

>

> I'm gonna ask the reverse, is this really NOT a game for someone that likes 90% of the content? Because we read non-sense like players stopping supporting the company or quitting the game because of Raids.

 

I noticed you didn't answer his question. Cute.

 

But, I'll answer yours.

 

Yes. In fact, a large portion of gamers are quasi-casual, and enjoy progress and long term goals in the games they play, while often their progress is much slower then _hardcore_ players, but they want the progress and the rewards the same. Once the company puts in content that stonewalls them, and stops them dead in their tracks, in case with something like raids, being two fold, with both a social construct gate and a skill/gear gate, these players realize they have progressed as far along this game as they ever will. Everything else at that point is a time sink for them, and lets be real, time sinks are not put in for the Casual or the Quasi-Casual as their pace is slow enough to not merit them, they also serve no purpose to progress along any long term goal. As such once a player knows they can't progress to the end, they can make it to the 90% mark, and no more, it's like going to a movie.. and never being allowed to watch the end.. but you saw 90% of the movie.. is that not enough? Would any of us really buy a movie that was only 90% of the show? We both know the answer is No.

[nia.4725]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

> > > >

> > > > He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

> > >

> > > I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

> > >

> > > I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

> > >

> > > So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose **not** to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

> > >

> > > So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @"TexZero.7910" can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

> >

> > It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

> >

> > Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

> >

> > When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

> >

> > In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

> >

> > If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

>

> Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static till what.. 3 years and I have no idea how many raids later before you would be willing to pug.

>

> When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

>

> Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

 

I'll answer bit by bit.

 

About the first part. Pugging is harder than raiding with a static. That's undeniable. However, pugging is not that difficult. It is less difficult the more experienced you are, of course, as the number of LFGs you can join increases a lot. But that's normal to a point. I do however think that newbies should have it better, I do think that raid accessibility is an issue that Anet should fix. The thing is, I don't think an easy mode is the right solution to it. Now that I've said that, it's not true that I would not even try to step outside my static. I started raiding with a static, but said static died very quickly. I pugged for several months until I got accepted in a different static. And even then, when I lacked some bosses I pugged them. To sum up, I've pugged since the start, but I do not feel comfortable pugging certain bosses. Sometimes I'm willing and even interested in pugging, sometimes I don't feel like it.

 

About the second part. I can understand that. I mean, I'm not a very sociable person, you know? I have my own anxiety struggles, and as I've said, I have some confidence issues too, and that does not help me w/ pugging certain bosses. But, again, I don't think an easy mode is the panacea for that. It would not solve my problem, at all. It could work for some people, but not for all of them.

 

About the 3rd part. Yes, absolutely. Seriously, I can. I did not have an static during all my raider life. I joined raids with a static, well, more than a static it was 3 friends and me, but said static died quickly and I had to pug. My first static died when I had something like 30LI. I got accepted into my second static when I had 130LI. That's 100pugged LI between my first 2 statics. I had it easier, that's for sure, because my statics helped me and I also got helped by some amazing people who taught me and brought me to do my first Xera, my first Sabetha, my first Deimos, my first Matthias. But not having all of that would have not _prevented_ me from raiding. It would have made things _tougher_.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > You dont understand. I do not complain. I am fine with raids as they are. But if tvey did your idea (give acces to all raid skins without raids) i would probably leave.

>

> Well, that's sad.

>

> >It is because that would make a statement that anet will do more stuff for casual players then for dedicated players.

>

> But I am dedicated. Probably as dedicated as you are. I'm in the "over 4000 hours" camp, higher than 83% of the Efficiency population. "Casual" is not opposed to "dedication," "casual" can mean many different things depending on context. Players who are "gameplay casual" can be very dedicated, they are just dedicated to a casual experience.

>

> >There would be no goal to work for for more tryhard players.

>

> Sure there would, the exact same goals that are in right now. They would be no easier to achieve, the casual methods would take longer to accomplish, so tryhards would always have them much faster and for longer. More importantly, even after the casuals have their armor, *you* would know what *you* did you earn *yours,* and ultimately, that's *all* that matters, not what other people have.

>

> >Raids are harder the OW yet with this change there would be no reward.

>

> Again, no rewards would be removed from raids. Everything you could earn there now, you would continue to earn there, and if anyone else could get them, it would take them longer. By the time they have whatever you have now, you would be on to whatever rewards are going to be added in a year from now.

>

> >No raider ask for 15 golds for boss (and that would be fair reward for it). That would cause much more outrage. The curent system where rewards for raids are accountbound works much better.

>

> I would MUCH rather that raiders get 15 gold per boss\* than for them to have exclusive access to any skins. I'm almost certain that *most* players would agree on that.

>

> \* I will note the caveat that this much *liquid* gold might have economic implications, but if it were in materials or something? Sure, ok, whatever.

 

I dont think that would be to much gold considering you can do any other farm all day without hitting a reward cap and raids are 1 time a week

[nia.4725]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > > I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

> > > > >

> > > > > He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

> > > >

> > > > I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

> > > >

> > > > I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

> > > >

> > > > So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose **not** to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

> > > >

> > > > So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @"TexZero.7910" can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

> > >

> > > It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

> > >

> > > Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

> > >

> > > When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

> > >

> > > In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

> > >

> > > If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

> >

> > Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static till what.. 3 years and I have no idea how many raids later before you would be willing to pug.

> >

> > When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

> >

> > Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

>

> It might come as a surprise, but I raided for a long time before joining an actual static. Nowadays I find myself pugging once again, because my static is going through a particularly rough time. Some people quit, some people rarely can make it on time and our raid sessions often get delayed or cancelled, and most often involve pugging. As a result, we often don't even clear W1-4 like we used to. So what do I do? I open LFG and raid. What else would I do?

 

I think I saw you yesterday at the aerodrome. If it wasn't you then it was someone who had the same char name as your account : D

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

> >

> > I'm gonna ask the reverse, is this really NOT a game for someone that likes 90% of the content? Because we read non-sense like players stopping supporting the company or quitting the game because of Raids.

>

> I noticed you didn't answer his question. Cute.

>

There was no need to because it wasn't aimed at me. I actually like 99% of the content of this game. Not really my place to answer for someone else. But since you really want my answer, yes someone that hates 90% of the content in a game should probably go find another game.

 

> Once the company puts in content that stonewalls them, and stops them dead in their tracks, in case with something like raids, being two fold, with both a social construct gate and a skill/gear gate, these players realize they have progressed as far along this game as they ever will.

 

Yes but the company that put that content in the game continues to put content in the game that they enjoy. Last I checked Arenanet hasn't stopped releasing other content to focus only on Raids. In fact, the pace of releases is nearly the same as before Raids, with similarly sized open world zones, and similarly sized episodes in terms of story. So those players are getting as much content as they did before Raids were added to the game, as many long term goals to go for as they did before Raids, and for those players nothing really changed in terms of what they get. Raids are an extra, if you really think the game isn't for you because a part of it is behind a wall you can't cross, then the rest of the game isn't doing a good enough job of keeping you in the game. You'd leave anyway

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

> > >

> > > I'm gonna ask the reverse, is this really NOT a game for someone that likes 90% of the content? Because we read non-sense like players stopping supporting the company or quitting the game because of Raids.

> >

> > I noticed you didn't answer his question. Cute.

> >

> There was no need to because it wasn't aimed at me. I actually like 99% of the content of this game. Not really my place to answer for someone else. But since you really want my answer, yes someone that hates 90% of the content in a game should probably go find another game.

>

> > Once the company puts in content that stonewalls them, and stops them dead in their tracks, in case with something like raids, being two fold, with both a social construct gate and a skill/gear gate, these players realize they have progressed as far along this game as they ever will.

>

> Yes but the company that put that content in the game continues to put content in the game that they enjoy. Last I checked Arenanet hasn't stopped releasing other content to focus only on Raids. In fact, the pace of releases is nearly the same as before Raids, with similarly sized open world zones, and similarly sized episodes in terms of story. So those players are getting as much content as they did before Raids were added to the game, as many long term goals to go for as they did before Raids, and for those players nothing really changed in terms of what they get. Raids are an extra, if you really think the game isn't for you because a part of it is behind a wall you can't cross, then the rest of the game isn't doing a good enough job of keeping you in the game. You'd leave anyway

 

We both know more people would buy a movie that they were meh about, or only really liked a small part of, then people who would buy a movie they loved with 10% removed from it.

 

In fact the more they loved the movie, the less they would be willing to pay for less of it.

 

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> So those players are getting as much content as they did before Raids were added to the game, as many long term goals to go for as they did before Raids, and for those players nothing really changed in terms of what they get.

 

Legendary Items are the Only Long Term goals in this game. Everything else is more akin to a side quest or interim reward at best. For example, Elite Spec Weapons, are something that a player can get or work on while doing their Legendary Weapon.

 

Same with many things.

 

As such.. no.. there is the distinct removal of the Long Term goal of PvE Legendary Armor.

 

This has been explained to you ad nauseum, and at this point, I can only assume you are being willfully obtuse about this.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> We both know more people would buy a movie that they were meh about, or only really liked a small part of, then people who would buy a movie they loved with 10% >removed from it.

 

But nothing got removed. They just added things.

 

 

[yann.1946]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

> > > >

> > > > I'm gonna ask the reverse, is this really NOT a game for someone that likes 90% of the content? Because we read non-sense like players stopping supporting the company or quitting the game because of Raids.

> > >

> > > I noticed you didn't answer his question. Cute.

> > >

> > There was no need to because it wasn't aimed at me. I actually like 99% of the content of this game. Not really my place to answer for someone else. But since you really want my answer, yes someone that hates 90% of the content in a game should probably go find another game.

> >

> > > Once the company puts in content that stonewalls them, and stops them dead in their tracks, in case with something like raids, being two fold, with both a social construct gate and a skill/gear gate, these players realize they have progressed as far along this game as they ever will.

> >

> > Yes but the company that put that content in the game continues to put content in the game that they enjoy. Last I checked Arenanet hasn't stopped releasing other content to focus only on Raids. In fact, the pace of releases is nearly the same as before Raids, with similarly sized open world zones, and similarly sized episodes in terms of story. So those players are getting as much content as they did before Raids were added to the game, as many long term goals to go for as they did before Raids, and for those players nothing really changed in terms of what they get. Raids are an extra, if you really think the game isn't for you because a part of it is behind a wall you can't cross, then the rest of the game isn't doing a good enough job of keeping you in the game. You'd leave anyway

>

> We both know more people would buy a movie that they were meh about, or only really liked a small part of, then people who would buy a movie they loved with 10% removed from it.

>

> In fact the more they loved the movie, the less they would be willing to pay for less of it.

>

>

>

 

isn't the comparison more who wouldn't buy a movie they loved if they added after credits scene they didn't like?

 

P.S. You made a comment about only 2 of the top ten MMO have raids as endgame. What is you're list of top 1 mmo then?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > > > I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

> > > > >

> > > > > I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

> > > > >

> > > > > So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose **not** to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

> > > > >

> > > > > So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @"TexZero.7910" can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

> > > >

> > > > It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

> > > >

> > > > Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

> > > >

> > > > When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

> > > >

> > > > In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

> > > >

> > > > If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

> > >

> > > Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static till what.. 3 years and I have no idea how many raids later before you would be willing to pug.

> > >

> > > When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

> > >

> > > Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

> >

> > It might come as a surprise, but I raided for a long time before joining an actual static. Nowadays I find myself pugging once again, because my static is going through a particularly rough time. Some people quit, some people rarely can make it on time and our raid sessions often get delayed or cancelled, and most often involve pugging. As a result, we often don't even clear W1-4 like we used to. So what do I do? I open LFG and raid. What else would I do?

>

> I think I saw you yesterday at the aerodrome. If it wasn't you then it was someone who had the same char name as your account : D

 

Nah, I don't have a character named "Feanor". But it is entirely possible to have seen me, I was doing late W1, W3 and Deimos kills yesterday.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> We both know more people would buy a movie that they were meh about, or only really liked a small part of, then people who would buy a movie they loved with 10% removed from it.

The movie example is really silly and doesn't apply to a video game. Video games have a more diverse audience than movies, they need to cater to a lot more types of people, that's why they have such diverse content. Anyway, even in your movie example, this isn't a movie but an entire franchise of 20 movies. And you will be missing some tiny parts of movies 3, 6 and 9. The other 17 movies will be perfectly available to you without anything missing. And as long the movie company continues releasing more movies that you love, missing those tiny bits in earlier movies isn't a big deal.

 

> Legendary Items are the Only Long Term goals in this game.

I disagree, there are many goals to go for other than some ugly Legendary items. And even besides that, they added G2 Legendary Weapon, new backpacks, Legendary Armor in PVP and WVW, a Legendary Trinket available in LS3 zones and so on. Saying that they are not adding any new true goals is misleading and dishonest.