RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops. Thats true for every gamemode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Yes. You need AR gearing, Fractal potions, it's a very different play experience than open world PvE content. > Fractal potions are a new-ish thing, we used to run Fractals without them just fine. Also, you don't need any kind of AR to survive in some of the Fractals (non-boss Fractals), you can complete them with 0 AR even at higher levels. Provided you are good enough not to get hit by any Agony-inflicting attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > Only for T2 onwards. But that's not for you anyway. How did we finish fractals before the introduction of potions if they are mandatory? The elements you mentioned for WvW and sPvP aren't "mandatory" either, but they are important to doing *well,* just as AR and potions are important for doing *well* in the Fractal mode. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > Fractal potions are a new-ish thing, we used to run Fractals without them just fine. So you run high-end Fractals today without them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > So you run high-end Fractals today without them? I rarely use the potions in Fractals. More often than not they are on the wrong character and I can't be bothered to swap them. And no I'm not buying any. To be honest, if I had the infinite potions, which I don't, I'd probably be more careful to have them always ready and use them all the time. But the regular ones? Not really, unless I'm in a sad group that believes using them is mandatory and start yelling "where are your potions!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > There's a lot wrong with raid design. The things listed here however aren't among them as they are all community created issues and not content related design issues. > > AI for raids is in it's infancy, same with encounter design. Everything follows a strict gameplay loop with very limited "variance" turning raids into pattern recognition instead. This limits how challenging they can be because it ceases being about each individuals skill elevating to the fights requirements and says as long as you have the requisite pieces you'll succeed. > > Additionally there's a heavy emphasis on creating cool looking mechanics that are unique to bosses but this leads us to having inconsistent skill reactions. Things that should reflect don't etc... It would be nice if they took things down the GW1 route, you can have unique but you need to have them unique in animation only, with them being consistent to their player based counterparts. Put the emphasis on player skill countering actions not just have a sole focus on dps'ing to skip/transition. > > Then there's the arena issue most of them can be described as nothing more than a box. While later fights have somewhat fixed this (Deimos) it really inhibits what design can do because they're too worried about players cheesing something by hiding ontop of/behind objects instead of properly incorporating 3D space into the fights. > > These are just some of the glaring design issues i can point to that make raids not as attractive as they could be both in terms of gameplay and the narrative encounter. Consistency is overrated. Fun is much more important, and having unique mechanics for each boss is much more fun. So there... The design is very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Consistency is overrated. Fun is much more important, and having unique mechanics for each boss is much more fun. So there... The design is very good. I respectfully disagree. If a player skill is supposed to do something, it should do said thing. Never should there be a case where the skill doesn't function properly or fails to function at all because of the way an NPC/Arena is coded. We've had this slowly being fixed over time, but the fact that Raids were in such a state to begin with showcases poor design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Consistency is overrated. Fun is much more important, and having unique mechanics for each boss is much more fun. So there... The design is very good. > I respectfully disagree. If a player skill is supposed to do something, it should do said thing. Never should there be a case where the skill doesn't function properly or fails to function at all because of the way an NPC/Arena is coded. We've had this slowly being fixed over time, but the fact that Raids were in such a state to begin with showcases poor design. > Skills should function properly, of course. But that's not to say the bosses' skills should follow the same rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnariiUK.7409 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that *some* players wanted even *more* challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right. > > > > > > > > > > This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that. > > > > > > > > > > Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids. > > > > > > > > Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'. > > > > > > > > Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know? > > > > > > And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons. > > > > > > And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe. > > > > > > The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids. > > > > > > It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game. > > > > > > The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch. > > > > There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time. > > Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons. > > > > Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life. > > Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018.. > > Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there. > > Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops. Considering most hardcore raiders are no longer gaining anything from the mode. I doubt raids would die even if they completely scrapped the rewards. There's always an itch for _good_ challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that *some* players wanted even *more* challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right. > > > > > > > > > > This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that. > > > > > > > > > > Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids. > > > > > > > > Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'. > > > > > > > > Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know? > > > > > > And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons. > > > > > > And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe. > > > > > > The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids. > > > > > > It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game. > > > > > > The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch. > > > > There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time. > > Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons. > > > > Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life. > > Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018.. > > Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there. > > Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops. Sure nerf their liquid reward( add food reward so it dont cost food to do them) and make them daily people would still do em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that *some* players wanted even *more* challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right. > > > > > > > > > > > > This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > > > It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids. > > > > > > > > > > Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'. > > > > > > > > > > Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know? > > > > > > > > And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons. > > > > > > > > And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe. > > > > > > > > The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids. > > > > > > > > It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game. > > > > > > > > The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch. > > > > > > There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time. > > > Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons. > > > > > > > Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life. > > > > Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018.. > > > > Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there. > > > > Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops. > > Considering most hardcore raiders are no longer gaining anything from the mode. I doubt raids would die even if they completely scrapped the rewards. > > There's always an itch for _good_ challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch. Of course they would die overnight.. people who had full sets of all skins and still had thousands of dungeon tokens left over still ran dungeons, till the rewards were nerfed. The fact that you think raids would fair any better is hilarious. The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnariiUK.7409 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that *some* players wanted even *more* challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know? > > > > > > > > > > And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons. > > > > > > > > > > And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe. > > > > > > > > > > The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids. > > > > > > > > > > It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game. > > > > > > > > > > The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch. > > > > > > > > There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time. > > > > Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons. > > > > > > > > > > Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life. > > > > > > Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018.. > > > > > > Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there. > > > > > > Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops. > > > > Considering most hardcore raiders are no longer gaining anything from the mode. I doubt raids would die even if they completely scrapped the rewards. > > > > There's always an itch for _good_ challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch. > > Of course they would die overnight.. people who had full sets of all skins and still had thousands of dungeon tokens left over still ran dungeons, till the rewards were nerfed. > > The fact that you think raids would fair any better is hilarious. > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. Dungeons were nerfed right before HoT (and raids) launched. Pretty much all of the remaining hardcore dungeon community just moved over to raids/fractals as they were newer, shinier and offered a much higher challenge at the time. Basically raids were a massive success for the hardcore PvE community. WvW survives because there's nothing else to scratch that itch. Rest assured if they released a new shiny WvW 2.0 then you wouldn't see many players left in vanilla WvW either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that *some* players wanted even *more* challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know? > > > > > > > > > > > > And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons. > > > > > > > > > > > > And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch. > > > > > > > > > > There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time. > > > > > Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life. > > > > > > > > Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018.. > > > > > > > > Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there. > > > > > > > > Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops. > > > > > > Considering most hardcore raiders are no longer gaining anything from the mode. I doubt raids would die even if they completely scrapped the rewards. > > > > > > There's always an itch for _good_ challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch. > > > > Of course they would die overnight.. people who had full sets of all skins and still had thousands of dungeon tokens left over still ran dungeons, till the rewards were nerfed. > > > > The fact that you think raids would fair any better is hilarious. > > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. > > Dungeons were nerfed right before HoT (and raids) launched. Pretty much all of the remaining hardcore dungeon community just moved over to raids/fractals as they were newer, shinier and offered a much higher challenge at the time. Basically raids were a massive success for the hardcore PvE community. This is so much wrong.. it's not even funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnariiUK.7409 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that *some* players wanted even *more* challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time. > > > > > > Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life. > > > > > > > > > > Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018.. > > > > > > > > > > Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there. > > > > > > > > > > Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops. > > > > > > > > Considering most hardcore raiders are no longer gaining anything from the mode. I doubt raids would die even if they completely scrapped the rewards. > > > > > > > > There's always an itch for _good_ challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch. > > > > > > Of course they would die overnight.. people who had full sets of all skins and still had thousands of dungeon tokens left over still ran dungeons, till the rewards were nerfed. > > > > > > The fact that you think raids would fair any better is hilarious. > > > > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. > > > > Dungeons were nerfed right before HoT (and raids) launched. Pretty much all of the remaining hardcore dungeon community just moved over to raids/fractals as they were newer, shinier and offered a much higher challenge at the time. Basically raids were a massive success for the hardcore PvE community. > > This is so much wrong.. it's not even funny. Oh my mistake, I must just be imagining the hundreds of dungeon runs myself and others used to do before Heart of Thorns, which turned into hundreds of enjoyable hours in raids. I'll play whatever is fun and challenging, I don't care how much of a reward it gives. > @"STIHL.2489" said: > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. How was it, "this is so much wrong it's not even funny"? WvW quality varies greatly. Sometimes it is good challenge, but I often see it being somewhat one-sided. Which is neither challenging, nor fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > >Can we please stop with the ridiculous insults getting thrown around. People are not divided in raiders and non raiders. > > It's shorthand. It's easier than saying "people who raid regularly" and "people who do not raid." Yes, there are some gray areas, and beliefs differ within those groups, but there are some relatively broad consensus within those bodies. > > >playing raids doesn't make you toxic and playing Open world player doesn't automatically make you a saint. > > True, but the point many of us were noting is that, for whatever reason, the people that tend to raid and self-identify as raiders *also* seems to correlate with toxic, "git gud" mentalities. It's like PvP. > > Sorry for the late reply i didn't really have time to answer. No the difference is more that in instant content you notice the toxicity more. it is true that the toxic part of the playerbase gets attracted to raids and PvP. This doesn't mean that the population of Raids is toxic. (i honestly don't know the population of PvP well enough to make a claim). My point remains that putting everyone in the same basket is just unproductive at best. and most of the time it's quite rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > What's really stupid about raids are the scarce groupbuilding-options you have. The LFG just sucks and LI/KP as skill-indicators aren't good either. > > Define: Group Building Options > > Do you mean by team composition, or you saying the LFG tool is bad? Cuz if you are talking about the later, I think the LFG do it's job just fine, just there aren't many people looking for pugs to their raids because of how scared of taking new people others are. The group-building-options in GW2 are just bad. First of all, the LFG is working when it comes to Open-World-Content. The LFG just isn't designed for more sophisticated PvE-content like raids or even fractals though. As a squad-leader organizing raids, you can't really organize all that well with the current LFG-tool. It's not like in other MMORPGs where people apply and you actually then have to invite them, which enables you to chat with them first and ask them about basic informations which in turn makes squad-building easier and smoother. Another problem also is the treshold for reaching excessive messaging. Often, I have to relog multiple times to adjust the LFG to the squads need. That's just annoying. Lastly, I can't access the raid-LFG if I'm on an Alt that's not Level 80, thus I'm mostly forced to play Level 80 Characters if I want to organize raids. That's also quite annoying if you want to level Alts or do your weekly key-farm. Secondly, this game is rather unsociable by design, which in turn impedes group-building. We have no world-chat in GW2. We have a megaserver-architecture and thus no server-identity outside of WvW. That's a bad combination since you won't have the natural group-building-process server-based MMORPGs (with or without world-chat) have. In that regard, the game is in dire need of something like a guild-browser or at least a decent tool in which people can look for statics and statics can look for new members. The LFG is mostly insufficient for that purpose. At least these two problems can be solved - the problem of a decent skill-indicator probably can't. LI won't tell you if the person who joins your squad really is good. I've had people with 250+ LI that were catastrophes at easier bosses; I've had people with <100 LI that knew how to pull their weight. Sadly, with increasing time, LI-requirements will just rise, which is rather suboptimal for new players or player who want to get into raids. ANet could at least implement that you still get guild-hall-decorations (KPs) from bosses you've already killed. > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that *some* players wanted even *more* challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know? > > > > > > > > > > And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons. > > > > > > > > > > And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe. > > > > > > > > > > The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids. > > > > > > > > > > It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game. > > > > > > > > > > The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch. > > > > > > > > There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time. > > > > Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons. > > > > > > > > > > Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life. > > > > > > Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018.. > > > > > > Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there. > > > > > > Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops. > > > > Considering most hardcore raiders are no longer gaining anything from the mode. I doubt raids would die even if they completely scrapped the rewards. > > > > There's always an itch for _good_ challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch. > > Of course they would die overnight.. people who had full sets of all skins and still had thousands of dungeon tokens left over still ran dungeons, till the rewards were nerfed. > > The fact that you think raids would fair any better is hilarious. > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. Raids aren't as rewarding as you think, especially if you're dependant on the LFG. You will almost always fail a few times until you beat the boss you're fighting. 2 gold per boss (or 4 gold with Call of the Mists) isn't really that much if you consider your expenditures for food. I get a lot more gold doing stuff like Palawadan than in raids. Sure, you can get some sweet shinies in raids, but that's rather rare, and the weekly MS-cap is quite low, so you have to grind raids for quite some weeks to be able to buy the shiny you desire (example: without exchanging Miniatures for MS, you'd need seven weeks for a ghostly infusion). Nonetheless, even if the rewards would be nerfed, I'd still do raids because they actually are fun. Raids actually feel like playing a real MMORPG, that you actually actively play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasty Pudding.3764 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > There's always an itch for _good_ challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch. That's true, but raids aren't the answer for everyone. My old guild was tired of dungeons and fractals before HoT and was looking forward to getting some new group content. We found raids to be tedious and boring, and most of the guild left GW2 as a result. Raids are not challenging content. They are busy content with mechanics that need to be learned to beat the encounters. That's the only difference between raids and dungeons. After making the initial investment in learning the mechanics, there is nothing difficult about performing the mechanics. It's just busy work. You don't need to shoot bullseyes at moving targets. You don't need to precisely coordinate your skills with other players in order to weaken the enemy's defenses. You don't need to do anything with any degree of precision or accuracy or perception or insight or counterplay. You just need to follow the fully choreographed song and dance of the encounter mechanics in order to win. The reason I think raids are bad is that they are full of jarringly random and arbitrary mechanics that feel like they belong more in a platformer than an RPG. (Even worse now due to the accolades and attaboys Anet got for raids, this crap is bleeding over into fractals and even post-PoF story instances.) I don't want to stand in green circles and avoid red/blue circles while moving around a pie plate of doom. I don't want to throw jumping beans at allies so they can vault from platform to platform while I do-si-do around a weird rotating flame wall. And hey fractals, I don't want to play bullet hell or play catch the bouncing ball. I want to have an immersive fantasy RPG fight where I am using my combat skills to fight the enemy while carefully paying attention to what the enemy is doing so that I can also use my combat skills to counter the enemy efforts. GW1 didn't have any of this garbage. All of its elite areas were real fights that were fun and used the normal combat system. Anet should be looking to GW1 for ideas rather than super mario bros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeknar.6184 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Tasty Pudding.3764" said: > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > There's always an itch for _good_ challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch. > > That's true, but raids aren't the answer for everyone. My old guild was tired of dungeons and fractals before HoT and was looking forward to getting some new group content. We found raids to be tedious and boring, and most of the guild left GW2 as a result. > > Raids are not challenging content. They are busy content with mechanics that need to be learned to beat the encounters. That's the only difference between raids and dungeons. After making the initial investment in learning the mechanics, there is nothing difficult about performing the mechanics. It's just busy work. You don't need to shoot bullseyes at moving targets. You don't need to precisely coordinate your skills with other players in order to weaken the enemy's defenses. You don't need to do anything with any degree of precision or accuracy or perception or insight or counterplay. You just need to follow the fully choreographed song and dance of the encounter mechanics in order to win. > > The reason I think raids are bad is that they are full of jarringly random and arbitrary mechanics that feel like they belong more in a platformer than an RPG. (Even worse now due to the accolades and attaboys Anet got for raids, this crap is bleeding over into fractals and even post-PoF story instances.) I don't want to stand in green circles and avoid red/blue circles while moving around a pie plate of doom. I don't want to throw jumping beans at allies so they can vault from platform to platform while I do-si-do around a weird rotating flame wall. And hey fractals, I don't want to play bullet hell or play catch the bouncing ball. I want to have an immersive fantasy RPG fight where I am using my combat skills to fight the enemy while carefully paying attention to what the enemy is doing so that I can also use my combat skills to counter the enemy efforts. GW1 didn't have any of this garbage. All of its elite areas were real fights that were fun and used the normal combat system. Anet should be looking to GW1 for ideas rather than super mario bros. I never heard of any game with PvE content that goes beyond learning mechanics and executing them... All PvE content will get predictable at some point because you cannot really program a balanced encounter if you are using random variables to everything to try make it unpredictable. Honestly, if you want to fight enemies that you need to always pay attention that what they are doing, maybe you are better off doing PvP or WvW than PvE. Players are (to some extend) less predictable than PvE mobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. > > If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken. ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. > > > > If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken. > > ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it.. Jump puzzles and mini dungeons, I earn as much in those if not less then in wvw with the reward tracks and loot on kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. > > > > > > If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken. > > > > ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it.. > > Jump puzzles and mini dungeons, I earn as much in those if not less then in wvw with the reward tracks and loot on kills. I have never lost money doing jump puzzles, in fact, many WvW players would do them for fast cash to fund their game mode. Wow,.. you earn as much with JP.. as you do with WvW reward tracks.. can you now imagine how bad the rewards were in WvW before they put in the reward tracks. As I said.. Net Loss from playing the game mode.. and no unique skins or rewards. It was rough in the early days, and yet it still thrived. Nothing else comes close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnariiUK.7409 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. > > > > If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken. > > ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it.. Uh, raids after the first clear each week... 1. You spend a ton of money on food. 2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind. 3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage. Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. > > > > > > If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken. > > > > ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it.. > > Uh, raids after the first clear each week... > > 1. You spend a ton of money on food. > 2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind. > 3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage. > > Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge. Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnariiUK.7409 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. > > > > > > > > If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken. > > > > > > ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it.. > > > > Uh, raids after the first clear each week... > > > > 1. You spend a ton of money on food. > > 2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind. > > 3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage. > > > > Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge. > > Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope. Well, given your responses, it's pretty clear you have some weird WvW agenda so I'll leave it here then. Regardless, look outside of your own box every once in while, you might find that people actually enjoy things you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it. > > > > > > > > > > If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken. > > > > > > > > ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it.. > > > > > > Uh, raids after the first clear each week... > > > > > > 1. You spend a ton of money on food. > > > 2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind. > > > 3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage. > > > > > > Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge. > > > > Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope. > > Well, given your responses, it's pretty clear you have some weird WvW agenda so I'll leave it here then. > > Regardless, look outside of your own box every once in while, you might find that people actually enjoy things you don't. No agenda.. just truth. If they nerfed the rewards in raids, the content would be dead in under a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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