Keep No Downed State?

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"Buy Some Apples.6390" It is actually quite accurate that finishers barely go off in WvW in zerg vs zerg fights, and even while roaming you're more like to be cleaving downed enemies than using a finisher on them as it makes you exposed while you channel it, and if you choose to go that route you are likely forced to pop some of your defensive cooldowns. Anet could probably change it so that if someone's damage is what kills a player then your finisher plays over their corpse. They'd likely need to add some effects distance or limit for this, though, because that could get taxing if a lot of players are going all at once.

 

Also the posts about traits and other functions being made irrelevant, Scrapper being given the Function Gyro, if you think about it, was a way to alleviate the chore that it was to finish someone off and you got this every 20 seconds. Keep in mind that Anet could tailor the Function Gyro and some other skills (Battle Standard, Spirit of Nature, etc) to actually function with fully slain players, with a reduction in the number of players affected of course, and this would be specifically for WvW.

[Silvatar.5379]

Absolutely hate the "no downed" state.

[zerorogue.9410]

> @"Ezrael.6859" said:

> Numbers advantage rezzing isn't skill.

>

> The best thing about this change is that it has allowed 1v2 and 1v3 fights where you can come out the winner, but previously they would have just power rezzed.

>

> Fighting stuff 1v2 or 1v3 before where they had a support FB to just rezz the DPS was crap, but those fights now can be won, it's been a roamers dream, had so many good 1vX fights that I never would have had a chance to win before.

>

> People that are saying _'oh I get blown up by a random stealth class while roaming'_ well **if you instantly die now, then when the changes roll back you'll just instantly go to downstate instead.... and you'll still die!**

 

Never said the Downstate system was flawless, but switching one bad system for one that's worse is not how you fix things. Downstate should be nerfed to some degree, people should not be able to rez their teammates while there under heavy dps. However, removing downstate altogether invalidates a significant amount of build diversity and leave WvW a much worse place.

[Kilamanjaro.2705]

Chalk this up with easy/trainer mode raid changes. Not gonna happen, have a nice day

 

Downed state/finishers are uniquely Guild Wars 2. I would be astounded to see something so unique removed. It would be equivalent to Mcdonalds dropping Big Macs or some other absurdity

And, there is always the "paid for" finishers. Regardless what you personally feel about it, it is a customer service nightmare to chanage them.

Sorry thief/mezmer, A few peeps will still be coming up to slap you after your burst bag for quite awhile yet

[Kiroshima.8497]

Alternatively:

Down State no longer has invulnerability (like in PvP).

Down State no longer uses 3x Base Health (normalize to like 10k for all classes).

Down State has normalized skills across all classes (no more eles mist forming into doors, everyone has the same Down 1, Down 2, and Down 3).

Conditions stay when entering down state to match the loss of invuln.

 

Some other adjustments:

 

Poison has double the heal denial for all forms of resurrection. This is your go to for dealing with ANY res skill, it also should adjust the health you rally with (so if you Illusion of Life someone who is poisoned, they start with 33% health instead of 100, so cleanse first).

 

Manual Res Speed Adjusted: Starts slow, but ramps up. Currently at 15% per second, this means an ally can res faster than someone can stomp since it takes 3 seconds (2 seconds for first res). Instead, start the percentage lower, but let it ramp up. First res should take about 3.5 seconds (gives the aggressor some minor leeway for setting up their stomp). To get that, it should be about 5/5/10/15 for the percentage per second. Then after that just add another 5 per second (since after 5 seconds it's highly likely the aggressor is unable to apply pressure no stomp). This also reduces the speed of 2nd down state (50% using the ramping takes about 4.8, compared to the 3.33 seconds at 15%). Third down is faster however, as it only takes 6 seconds to restore 75% of your downstate bar.

 

All resurrection skills (minus Illusion of Life and traits) work on full dead players even in combat, but not instantly. Instead, the caster must hold the button down like a Siege Skill, restoring 5% per second (max cast time of 20 seconds). After ressing even 1 player, the skill will go on cooldown and apply any of its On Resurrection Effects (like Ele's Glyph) and the targets will count as rallied (they don't get up will full hp, they have a down state penalty, etc).

 

But this is a lot of stuff so I'd rather they just try no downstate as a rotating mode 1 week per month.

[Iza.6415]

I like the no downed state but if we are keeping the no downed, there are some major rework needed such as the traits and skill involving downed players. I also feel the siege damage should tone down to cope with it.

[Catchyfx.5768]

I would like to see for every week different handicap like this. It freshers gameplay a lot, you are forced play little bit different(except one shot builds).

[Kilamanjaro.2705]

I would also like to add that, if we do this particular event again in the future, that the Buff on the buff bar has another buff beside it that reduces ALL damage by at least 50% or at least doubles health pool.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tic Tac Toe.1482" said:

> What do folks all think about this?

 

It cannot remain in the game. Breaks too many abilities which revolve around ressing downed allies. It's a fun event (although the roamers become even more annoying) but that's all it can be - an event that changes the rules occasionally.

[Nirari.4827]

It was a nice event, just like the Golem event.

 

It's not permanent because it makes downstate skills obsolete, I think.

[Specialka.7290]

Lol at those who cry about downstate skills. Obv, Anet would rework those if No downstate would stay, as it makes the Wvw far better than it ever was.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> Downed state/finishers are uniquely Guild Wars 2. I would be astounded to see something so unique removed. It would be equivalent to Mcdonalds dropping Big Macs or some other absurdity

 

Fun fact: McDonalds Sweden had a burger called McTasty that literally **everyone loved** and when asked, Mcdonalds went on official record to say that they would **never ever** take it off the menu and it would be there **forever**. Then shortly after they removed it from the menu and stated *"well you cant promise the sun will rise tomorrow either"*.

 

I am not even joking, thats what happened.

[Absconditus.6804]

I would much rather see that this was never repeated again, at least for a full week. Finishers that may have been paid for with real money are completely unusable in the mode right now. If you're not a fan of Structured PvP, the open-world aspect of the game provides extremely few situations where you get to use them, and even if it did, that wouldn't change that the Finishers might have been bought with WvW in mind. There's 38 of them that's been sold at this point, totaling 25200 Gems, or around $315/€315 over the years. Will ArenaNet refund that to everyone who has bought all these Finishers? No?

 

There are several skills and traits that are rendered crippled or outright useless while this event is running, such as the Scrapper's Function Gyro, Ranger's "Search and Rescue!" and Nature's Renewal, Necromancer's Signet of Undeath, Guardian's Signet of Mercy, Elementalist's Glyph of Renewal and Arcane Ressurection trait, Mesmer's Illusion of Life, and more⁽[ʷᶦᵏᶦ](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival")⁾. Even if not all of these are commonly used, should they suddenly be rendered useless? Should ArenaNet redesign them all for WvW?

 

It takes away a tactical element of the game mode and only serves to dumb it down. Downed enemies and allies can and has been used tactically to bomb the opposing side, either as they try to revive their ally, or are trying to bomb your downed ally. Without it, there is no longer that element of distraction where your mind in a split second battles if it should revive someone or leave them to die. Imagine also how frustrating it'll be if you manage to wade through the enemy zerg into your friendly structure in order to group up with your outnumbered allies, only to die two steps behind the gates to conditions since you had to blow all cooldowns on just getting through the gate with a sliver of health left. Have fun running back yet again.

 

The event doesn't change the "only pressing one button" aspect of engagements if that is what you used to do either. If you used to do that with downed state implemented, you were clearly a "not so good" player then, and are likely no better with it being disabled, let's be realistic here. Take out rallying as a whole instead, increase the time it takes to revive a downed ally for that matter, but don't take out downed state.

[Ben K.6238]

This is enjoyable, but as much as I'd like to say yes to this, it would need some changes before it could ever be implemented. There are many traits and skills that do nothing if downed state doesn't exist.

[Quench.7091]

Downed state doesn't really put a dent into large scale combat, except for when there are classes present that specialize into handling downed players. AoE attacks tend to kill downed players unless those players can get assisted with additional protection spells or get hit with double healing speed rezes. Unless they replace all of the traits that assist in resurrecting players, they shouldn't remove downed state.

 

A more controversial opinion I hold is that downed states help keep glass cannons in check by slowing down the pace of combat for smaller battles. The removal of downed state would probably result in the developers making a less desirable change than the removal of downed state itself. Usually MMORPGs with glass cannons have super powerful instant cast direct heals from dedicated healer classes to accomplish this. GW2 doesn't really go that way with professions. What path do you think they'd take to resolve this? People don't really play MMORPGs for the fast paced kills like they do in the FPS genre.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Quench.7091" said:

> Downed state doesn't really put a dent into large scale combat, except for when there are classes present that specialize into handling downed players. AoE attacks tend to kill downed players unless those players can get assisted with additional protection spells or get hit with double healing speed rezes. Unless they replace all of the traits that assist in resurrecting players, they shouldn't remove downed state.

>

> A more controversial opinion I hold is that downed states help keep glass cannons in check by slowing down the pace of combat for smaller battles. The removal of downed state would probably result in the developers making a less desirable change than the removal of downed state itself. Usually MMORPGs with glass cannons have super powerful instant cast direct heals from dedicated healer classes to accomplish this. GW2 doesn't really go that way with professions. What path do you think they'd take to resolve this? People don't really play MMORPGs for the fast paced kills like they do in the FPS genre.

 

This is true, people used to play MMORPGs not for the fast paced kills but in recent years, even with the activity you see on GW2, WoW, ESO and Final Fantasy, the genre is sort of...withering away. The most revitalization we see is from the KR market, or sometimes Japan, and their MMORPGs tend to be the more grindy kind (I personally don't mind this) but the combat systems are usually pretty amazing and they have been praised for it. BDO has amazing combat, ignoring all the other aspects that people may dislike about it. B&S has pretty amazing combat as well despite the rest of the game being a bit lacking. Archeage, for all its faults, did have tab target combat but it was faster paced than many other MMORPGs. PvP players for the MMORPG genre **want** faster paced combat, its why you see many of the huge guilds that jump into MMORPGs at launch crave that kind of stuff. I saw it with Archeage, with BDO and GW2 even had that at one point because at the time in 2012 it was much faster paced and much more skill oriented than other offerings at the time. If you look at games being developed now in the KR region, Lost Ark being one and Project TL (Lineage Eternal reboot), the combat actually looks fast paced and complex and those are top-down camera click to move MMORPGs. The only thing I'll say about Bless is this: "No."

 

I understand the desire to equate "fast paced kills" to FPS games but a lot of the time even in GW2 thats just not what is happening in the game. Does it happen to more casual, less experienced PvPers? Of course it does. They are still learning, they are still adapting and they are going to improve. However just watch two Plat+ ranked players go at it in 1v1s, those fights very rarely consist of 1-shotting or the "fast paced FPS kills" that some might be experiencing because 1) They are less experienced and 2) They likely don't have a build that is up to par. Watch two havoc/roaming groups of skilled players fight and those fights are hardly short, in fact they get pretty intense and this has only gotten better, and more fun in my opinion, with downed state being removed in WvW for this event.

 

GW2 has an opportunity to sort of rework a game mode to make it much more interesting and actually bring some legitimate competitive nature to it where it has been rather stagnant for some time now. Could that potentially ostracize the more casual PvPer crowd? Maybe, and I understand the concern there but honestly what harm is it in promoting a PvP environment where players might actually want to improve and get better because in the end that hard work, their increased level of knowledge and experience would actually pay off in a significant way. Granted it does now, but even if you get yourself into a 1v2 or 1v3 that you might be able to win, the one person you push to 0 health because they made a mistake or are less experienced is **still** in the fight just slightly less dangerous until they get revived by a teammate or rallied because a less experienced player on your team waltzes up and then just dies or they rally off a guard.

[YaminoNakani.7083]

No downed state really hurts the necromancer profession

[Quench.7091]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"Quench.7091" said:

> > Downed state doesn't really put a dent into large scale combat, except for when there are classes present that specialize into handling downed players. AoE attacks tend to kill downed players unless those players can get assisted with additional protection spells or get hit with double healing speed rezes. Unless they replace all of the traits that assist in resurrecting players, they shouldn't remove downed state.

> >

> > A more controversial opinion I hold is that downed states help keep glass cannons in check by slowing down the pace of combat for smaller battles. The removal of downed state would probably result in the developers making a less desirable change than the removal of downed state itself. Usually MMORPGs with glass cannons have super powerful instant cast direct heals from dedicated healer classes to accomplish this. GW2 doesn't really go that way with professions. What path do you think they'd take to resolve this? People don't really play MMORPGs for the fast paced kills like they do in the FPS genre.

>

> This is true, people used to play MMORPGs not for the fast paced kills but in recent years, even with the activity you see on GW2, WoW, ESO and Final Fantasy, the genre is sort of...withering away. The most revitalization we see is from the KR market, or sometimes Japan, and their MMORPGs tend to be the more grindy kind (I personally don't mind this) but the combat systems are usually pretty amazing and they have been praised for it. BDO has amazing combat, ignoring all the other aspects that people may dislike about it. B&S has pretty amazing combat as well despite the rest of the game being a bit lacking. Archeage, for all its faults, did have tab target combat but it was faster paced than many other MMORPGs. PvP players for the MMORPG genre **want** faster paced combat, its why you see many of the huge guilds that jump into MMORPGs at launch crave that kind of stuff. I saw it with Archeage, with BDO and GW2 even had that at one point because at the time in 2012 it was much faster paced and much more skill oriented than other offerings at the time. If you look at games being developed now in the KR region, Lost Ark being one and Project TL (Lineage Eternal reboot), the combat actually looks fast paced and complex and those are top-down camera click to move MMORPGs. The only thing I'll say about Bless is this: "No."

>

> I understand the desire to equate "fast paced kills" to FPS games but a lot of the time even in GW2 thats just not what is happening in the game. Does it happen to more casual, less experienced PvPers? Of course it does. They are still learning, they are still adapting and they are going to improve. However just watch two Plat+ ranked players go at it in 1v1s, those fights very rarely consist of 1-shotting or the "fast paced FPS kills" that some might be experiencing because 1) They are less experienced and 2) They likely don't have a build that is up to par. Watch two havoc/roaming groups of skilled players fight and those fights are hardly short, in fact they get pretty intense and this has only gotten better, and more fun in my opinion, with downed state being removed in WvW for this event.

>

> GW2 has an opportunity to sort of rework a game mode to make it much more interesting and actually bring some legitimate competitive nature to it where it has been rather stagnant for some time now. Could that potentially ostracize the more casual PvPer crowd? Maybe, and I understand the concern there but honestly what harm is it in promoting a PvP environment where players might actually want to improve and get better because in the end that hard work, their increased level of knowledge and experience would actually pay off in a significant way. Granted it does now, but even if you get yourself into a 1v2 or 1v3 that you might be able to win, the one person you push to 0 health because they made a mistake or are less experienced is **still** in the fight just slightly less dangerous until they get revived by a teammate or rallied because a less experienced player on your team waltzes up and then just dies or they rally off a guard.

 

It sounds like to me that you are more okay with the downed mechanic than you are the rally mechanic. I consider those separate issues, although I agree that there are some dumb rally moments.

 

Reflecting on what I had said, I suppose I should've been more clear on my take of things regarding the FPS genre. There are arena FPS games and more open large scale combat kind of FPS games. The large scale combat FPS games just about always have downed state mechanics, where a medic can come in and instantly revive a downed player for a period of time before they bleed to death and can no longer be revived. Stop the medic to stop the other player from returning to the fight is generally the rule. The GW2 downed system is mild take on that. It is good game design to include that kind of mechanic in a large scale map game mode allows for near instant deaths. Otherwise players are getting killed and having to walk back long distances from little mistakes all of the time with no method of recovery.

[Tiny Doom.4380]

> @"Musty.3148" said:

> > @"SweetPotato.7456" said:

> > No.

> > go play other games if you dont want down state.

>

> care to defend that? Or you just like getting rezzed by your zerg?

>

 

I'll defend it. Downed state was one of the key features of GW2, strongly promoted before launch as one of the ways in which the game would break the existing MMO mould. GW2 had, as a founding principle, the philosophy that every player should see every other player as an opportunity not a threat. That's why gathering nodes are non-competetive, why dynamic events automatically include and reward everyone in the area and so on.

 

The purpose of the downed state was not just to give a second chance to the player who got downed but to add a gameplay opportunity for those who came to his or her aid. That's why you get xp for reviving someone, not to mention why there are downed skills and upgrades which affect them. The only way in which WvW - which is GW2's PvPvE gamemode - differs in this respect is that players are split into three teams and you can only revive players on your own team. Other than that the downed state acts and was always intended to act in exactly the same way, and for exactly the same reasons, as it does in PvE.

 

Many people came to play GW2 specifically because it had these features and because it claimed to be unlike the MMOs that came before it. Removing those core features moves it further back towards that pre-existing norm and makes it more likely people who were looking for something different will carry on looking (as, indeed, a great number did within a few weeks of launch, when it became clear how exaggerated the claims that GW2 was radically different to other MMOs turned out to be).

 

Still, it does retain some differences and some of us who came here for those differences in the first place would like not to see any more of them eroded.

 

Plus I can count the number of times I've been rezzed by a zerg on the fingers of one hand. Rezzed after the battle's over and the enemy have left, yes. Rezzed in mid-fight, never happens to me. Maybe someone else is getting that attention but I'm not seeing it. I don't object to the removal of downstate because it gives an advantage but because it's a core game feature without which the game becomes even less the game it was sold to me as than it has already.

[Eleazar.9478]

Great change no more insta rezes. Seriously they got rid of quick stomping and quickness rezes but this insta stuff really is annoying in wvw (banner and spirit were since they were on super long CDs and took up elite skills)

 

 

 

 

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

If they adjust all the rezzing - finishing traits / skills , then i'm fine ( and nerf mirage in the occasion)

[Turkeyspit.3965]

As a casual WvW player, I wouldn't care either way.

 

But one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that you can buy finishers from the Gemstore or with BL currency, and while yes you could still use those in sPvP, I don't imagine players who play WvW exclusively would be all that happy at seeing items they purchased with real money / valuable currency becoming instantly unusable.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> As a casual WvW player, I wouldn't care either way.

>

> But one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that you can buy finishers from the Gemstore or with BL currency, and while yes you could still use those in sPvP, I don't imagine players who play WvW exclusively would be all that happy at seeing items they purchased with real money / valuable currency becoming instantly unusable.

 

well ... there's not that many classes that are able to stomp in spvp while being cleaved out so it's not like finishers were a big deal anymore !

[mcarswell.3768]

i voted no, but it's not as simple as that. i don't think no down state works well with the current balance, but with greatly increased TTK it could work.

[Menaka.5092]

The game is balanced around having the downstate. Rebalance the game if you want to keep the no-downstate.