What is Going On with Thief

[Xae.7204]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Xae.7204" said:

> > > @"Geiir.7603" said:

> > > > @"Rezok.2709" said:

> > > > A big part of the problem is that thief is the rogue / assassin class of this game, and they tend to be the most hated. It is frustrating to fight someone who can stealth and shadowstep away and basically always keep the fight at his terms. Furthermore it is a bursty class, and everyone hates getting one shot. Previous history of thief have had them quite OP and I think Anet is a bit afraid to venture too far into that again. And as a thief main I agree, we should not get buffed, it would make us too strong, but other professions needs to be nerfed. It is a problem that thieves can't overstep a line where they become the untouchable one shotters, so other professions pretty much need to follow thieves in terms of power, but right now they have surpassed thieves.

> > >

> > > About us escaping and fighting on our terms: that's basically the fantasy of the profession. We have stealth and mobility so that we can start and end a fight on our terms. High burst and low health or moderate damage and moderate health. Taking someone from 100-0 in a second isn't OK, but being nerfed because we are "not fun" to play against or because we can run if the fight goes bad isn't wrong. Every time I'm on any other toon and make a thief run away I get the satisfaction of winning. If people really need that gold and xp for killing the thief completely, then they got issues to work out...

> >

> > The thing is that the ability to pick and chose engagements is the most powerful ability in any game.

> >

>

> That is not exclusive to Thieves, though.

>

> > If ClassX had perfect Engage/Disengage it would win or draw every fight. Which means from the other players perspective the fight is "Heads I lose, tails I draw". It is simply not a game the other play would want to engage in.

> >

> > It doesn't matter if it is 99% Draw and 1% Win for ClassX, the other players still won't like the design. Thief's core design runs into that problem.

>

> That's not the reality of it though. Combat in GW2 can hardly be compared to a coin flip. Thieves blunders more than you think and it's not noticeable only because Thief players have learned to cover their mistakes. That blunder often times means the Thief loses.

 

The results of combat in GW2 can be compared to a coin flip. Win (Heads), Lose (Tails) or Draw (Edge).

 

Perfect Engage/Disengage changes it to Win or Draw.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Xae.7204" said:

> The thing is that the ability to pick and chose engagements is the most powerful ability in any game.

 

this depends on how important those engagements are for the mode. in a deathmatch type of mode this would be really the most powerful ability, but such a mode aside from the courtyard spvp map is not really present in the game.

in WvW aswell as conquest, most points are awarded for holding positions. there are usually enough people that you can have one of yours on all of your positions in theory( at some nights in WvW this might not be the case) so you cannot win the mode by avoiding engagements, you have to engage and win. a draw is a loss if you do not already hold that position. on top while you do get points for kills, you do not lose points on deaths so for points the important number is Kills - Deaths not Kills/Deaths. wich doesnt favor someone picking his fight but someone winning most of the fights and winning them fast. because if you for example in a WvW skirmish kill 30 people alone with lets say your warrior and die 10 times , while a thief kills 5 and doesnt die ( and yes i know both numbers are higher if you are present all the 120 minutes) then you still got more points ahead of your opponents then the thief did. his K/D is better and his opponents might think to have less of a chance beating him, still you are stronger in this mode then, it just wont feel like it for most.

[dDuff.3860]

beside from broken dancing dagger thief is ok.

[CJames.2354]

Wow. I am a returning player. I was searching for the current meta for thief and I am so surprised to find several threads on Thief being underpowered.

 

Last login 4 years ago lol. Back then thief used to be the most hated class in PvP and WvW due to stealth. I know because many people hate me in WvW lol.

 

Could it be that most of the professions have been buffed?

[saerni.2584]

> @"CJames.2354" said:

> Wow. I am a returning player. I was searching for the current meta for thief and I am so surprised to find several threads on Thief being underpowered.

>

> Last login 4 years ago lol. Back then thief used to be the most hated class in PvP and WvW due to stealth. I know because many people hate me in WvW lol.

>

> Could it be that most of the professions have been buffed?

 

Thief is still hated. Other classes have been buffed. We’re not too OP (see mirage) but we still get regular nerf threads.

[Tails.9372]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> I am not a Thief player, but is thief performing poorly as of late?

As of late? Aside from some nice applications it always has been. Several builds have severe scaling issues in addition to thief suffering heavily from power creep and some profound design flaws. Then there were some nonsensical nerfs nobody asked for like the removal of the ricochet trait and of course all the PvP releated nerfs which mostly boils down to people refusing to git gud which leaves this profession in this questionable state it is right now.

[pureskullz.7536]

Thief isn't in the best place it's been in for a while Hopefully mesmer changes soon and some other classes SPVP don't really see a defined place for thief accept for +1

[Nick.6972]

Assuming mesmer gets nerfed and Thief slightly buffed - why would I want to play thief in something like Fractals instead of Warrior or Guardian?

Even if Thief suddenly outperforms Guardian or Warrior in terms of PvE DPS, Guardian or Warrior still have more team support than Thief.

 

What unique and beneficial aspects do Thieves bring to party? It just seems to me every other DPS class will be still better in PvE even if Thief gets buffed.

[Volrath.1473]

> @"Nick.6972" said:

> Assuming mesmer gets nerfed and Thief slightly buffed - why would I want to play thief in something like Fractals instead of Warrior or Guardian?

> Even if Thief suddenly outperforms Guardian or Warrior in terms of PvE DPS, Guardian or Warrior still have more team support than Thief.

>

> What unique and beneficial aspects do Thieves bring to party? It just seems to me every other DPS class will be still better in PvE even if Thief gets buffed.

 

Aye. I agree, and I don't see any viable way to change that.

Thief will always be the last choice for any pve conted and is unwelcome in wvwvw raids too.

 

Venom sharing is irrelevant and stealth resing not a big deal. The DPS is considerably lower then... Anyone with a DPS spec.

 

Thieves are bound to wvwvw solo roaming and +1 in spvp.

If you're waiting for this to change, my advice is to reroll and start learning a new profession.

[Lucinellia.9247]

> @"Nick.6972" said:

> Assuming mesmer gets nerfed and Thief slightly buffed - why would I want to play thief in something like Fractals instead of Warrior or Guardian?

> Even if Thief suddenly outperforms Guardian or Warrior in terms of PvE DPS, Guardian or Warrior still have more team support than Thief.

>

> What unique and beneficial aspects do Thieves bring to party? It just seems to me every other DPS class will be still better in PvE even if Thief gets buffed.

 

Deadeye would need only a very small buff to be rivalling Weaver for single target damage (and, admittedly, Weaver still needs hit with the nerf bat a few times). It can also bring some select utility while still bringing DPS that places it as a firm second in terms of output on the majority of power-viable raid encounters. It is a little trickier for Fractals since burst is so important there but that is where increasing the damage per Malice of Malicious attacks would help. Some improvements to Fire for Effect would also be nice for opening up diverse healing compositions.

 

That said, Deadeye really isn't in as bad a spot as most people seem to think it is. Seriously, chances are you aren't speedclearing raids so those rankings over at GW2Raidar are worthwhile checking. Those high performances are also done by myself on a number of bosses and I'm disabled and can't play to 100% so it is definitely possible to do a lot better. As this stage, I believe taking a measured view, going with numerical evidence and suggesting small, easy to implement yet effective changes is the way to go to get Thief into a very good spot.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Lalainnia.3598" said:

> In a pve setting condi DD is still great and very strong. Its really the power builds that are truly lacking especially with deadeye being a overall flop elite this long into the expansion.

 

I agree i never had problem to stay in cool dps area or survive well in pvp wvw or pve with my condi DD unless i was horribly outnumbered

even in such cases i am still able to beat two ppl at a time (since Traps :3) but i wouldnt mind some extra condi power :)

[Artaz.3819]

This might be an unpopular opinion but...the #1 issue with Thief is the crutch of stealth (goes for all classes that Stealth really - primarily the medium armor classes and the burst nuke of Mesmer from stealth).

 

My thought is as a tradeoff to increase Thief damage output, the Stealth mechanic needs to be hit with a nerf somehow. Now some here will strongly believe that Stealth is not the issue directly but if you've played every class in every type of game play type, you'll see the _perception_ issue with any class that has easy access to Stealth.

 

The fix: make Revealed a debuff to power and condition damage (-200 to power/condi stats for duration of Revealed for ALL classes including Mesmer, Ranger, and Dragonhunter or anyone gaining stealth) and then revert the March 27, 2018, patch nerfing autoattack damage in WvW and PvP (and then add that damage increase back to PvE autoattack chain) pushing Thief back up to 33K-35K DPS again. Part of this change would also include swapping [Revealed Training](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed_Training "Revealed Training") (in Deadly Arts) for [Leeching Venoms](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leeching_Venoms) (in Shadow Arts) traits.

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Artaz.3819" said:

> This might be an unpopular opinion but...the #1 issue with Thief is the crutch of stealth (goes for all classes that Stealth really - primarily the medium armor classes and the burst nuke of Mesmer from stealth).

>

> My thought is as a tradeoff to increase Thief damage output, the Stealth mechanic needs to be hit with a nerf somehow. Now some here will strongly believe that Stealth is not the issue directly but if you've played every class in every type of game play type, you'll see the _perception_ issue with any class that has easy access to Stealth.

>

> The fix: make Revealed a debuff to power and condition damage (-200 to power/condi stats for duration of Revealed for ALL classes including Mesmer, Ranger, and Dragonhunter or anyone gaining stealth) and then revert the March 27, 2018, patch nerfing autoattack damage in WvW and PvP (and then add that damage increase back to PvE autoattack chain) pushing Thief back up to 33K-35K DPS again. Part of this change would also include swapping [Revealed Training](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed_Training "Revealed Training") (in Deadly Arts) for [Leeching Venoms](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leeching_Venoms) (in Shadow Arts) traits.

>

wow the AA nerfs were wvw/pvp only , how is reverting that putting you to 33k-35k DPS. or do you use pve rotation in pvp ?

nerfing stealth that you dont even use in pve and many people dont use much in pvp to then buff the AA means you further push any stealth build into oneshotting as the follow up damage would be trash and would buff some builds wich are already more in use without much tradeoff, thats not how balance works.

and i disagree thiefs main damage source should not be AA. currently it cannot deal huge amount of damage with ini skills because of the way initative is designed and you could just spamm one single skill pretty much all day long. if we had an ini bar for each unique weaponset and slower ini regen on each, we would have a reason to swap weapon and wouldnt be able to spamm as much. as a result anet would be able to buff our weapon skills so we might get more interesting rotations then just spamm 1 and might be more interesting to fight in pvp as we wouldnt be build around 1-2 gimmicks, every thief build currently is super gimmicky.

[Belishine.7493]

i think thief needs some love from anet and not this bad mentality of thief is a +1 for fights then thief will be in the spot it needs to be.

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"Belishine.7493" said:

> i think thief needs some love from anet and not this bad mentality of thief is a +1 for fights then thief will be in the spot it needs to be.

 

It was already confirmed by ANET in a developer post some time ago that, by design, Thief is a +1 class.

The class is intentionally planned to not be able to 1x1 other classes. I mean, you can beat people on skill difference like any other pvp game, but on paper we shouldn't be able to.

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"Belishine.7493" said:

> > i think thief needs some love from anet and not this bad mentality of thief is a +1 for fights then thief will be in the spot it needs to be.

>

> It was already confirmed by ANET in a developer post some time ago that, by design, Thief is a +1 class.

> The class is intentionally planned to not be able to 1x1 other classes. I mean, you can beat people on skill difference like any other pvp game, but on paper we shouldn't be able to.

>

 

yeah well that was during GW2' short ESL time, there it was the thieves role in spvp. that time is over and GW2 is also changing core designs over the years. this comment was about spvp, wich means it is not efficient on a capture point for a thief to 1 vs 1 as he will need more space for his mobility or use stealth both will make him lose the point, that doesnt mean thief is bad in 1 vs 1 under different circumstances. IMO thief was allways one of the best in 1 vs 1 on plain open field without anything else to bother then killing the opponent, thats why thief has been soo present in WvW roaming since ever, because if your ready to use whats given to the class we have the potential to kill everything and the potential to survive anyone.

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > @"Belishine.7493" said:

> > > i think thief needs some love from anet and not this bad mentality of thief is a +1 for fights then thief will be in the spot it needs to be.

> >

> > It was already confirmed by ANET in a developer post some time ago that, by design, Thief is a +1 class.

> > The class is intentionally planned to not be able to 1x1 other classes. I mean, you can beat people on skill difference like any other pvp game, but on paper we shouldn't be able to.

> >

>

> yeah well that was during GW2' short ESL time, there it was the thieves role in spvp. that time is over and GW2 is also changing core designs over the years. this comment was about spvp, wich means it is not efficient on a capture point for a thief to 1 vs 1 as he will need more space for his mobility or use stealth both will make him lose the point, that doesnt mean thief is bad in 1 vs 1 under different circumstances. IMO thief was allways one of the best in 1 vs 1 on plain open field without anything else to bother then killing the opponent, thats why thief has been soo present in WvW roaming since ever, because if your ready to use whats given to the class we have the potential to kill everything and the potential to survive anyone.

 

Potential to kill anything and survive (read disengage) against anyone doesn't mean we have the kit to sustain a long fight against anyone.

 

Thief mostly kill unprepared and less skilled players. Against a skilled player using a proper build, the capability of disengaging its the only part you will remember.

 

And on SPvP we haven't changed that much. If at all.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > > @"Belishine.7493" said:

> > > > i think thief needs some love from anet and not this bad mentality of thief is a +1 for fights then thief will be in the spot it needs to be.

> > >

> > > It was already confirmed by ANET in a developer post some time ago that, by design, Thief is a +1 class.

> > > The class is intentionally planned to not be able to 1x1 other classes. I mean, you can beat people on skill difference like any other pvp game, but on paper we shouldn't be able to.

> > >

> >

> > yeah well that was during GW2' short ESL time, there it was the thieves role in spvp. that time is over and GW2 is also changing core designs over the years. this comment was about spvp, wich means it is not efficient on a capture point for a thief to 1 vs 1 as he will need more space for his mobility or use stealth both will make him lose the point, that doesnt mean thief is bad in 1 vs 1 under different circumstances. IMO thief was allways one of the best in 1 vs 1 on plain open field without anything else to bother then killing the opponent, thats why thief has been soo present in WvW roaming since ever, because if your ready to use whats given to the class we have the potential to kill everything and the potential to survive anyone.

>

> Potential to kill anything and survive (read disengage) against anyone doesn't mean we have the kit to sustain a long fight against anyone.

>

> **Thief mostly kill unprepared and less skilled players**. Against a skilled player using a proper build, the capability of disengaging its the only part you will remember.

>

> And on SPvP we haven't changed that much. If at all.

yes i know we thieves are the real pros.

i am not a skilled player at least i get told daily how bad i am, yet i have killed tons of selfproclaimed pvp gods of other classes with my thief - thats how weak we are.

also how can a skilled player be unprepared ? if you said outnumbered i would understand but unprepared? do you go out into spvp or WvW expecting people to ask you if they may attack you ? no you will go out there expecting someone trying to jump you any second, thats why you have evoiremental awareness before , during and after each fight.

 

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"Belishine.7493" said:

> > i think thief needs some love from anet and not this bad mentality of thief is a +1 for fights then thief will be in the spot it needs to be.

>

> It was already confirmed by ANET in a developer post some time ago that, by design, Thief is a +1 class.

> The class is intentionally planned to not be able to 1x1 other classes. I mean, you can beat people on skill difference like any other pvp game, but on paper we shouldn't be able to.

>

 

well that sucks horrible and it is damn unfair i want this changed right damn now-

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > > @"Belishine.7493" said:

> > > > i think thief needs some love from anet and not this bad mentality of thief is a +1 for fights then thief will be in the spot it needs to be.

> > >

> > > It was already confirmed by ANET in a developer post some time ago that, by design, Thief is a +1 class.

> > > The class is intentionally planned to not be able to 1x1 other classes. I mean, you can beat people on skill difference like any other pvp game, but on paper we shouldn't be able to.

> > >

> >

> > yeah well that was during GW2' short ESL time, there it was the thieves role in spvp. that time is over and GW2 is also changing core designs over the years. this comment was about spvp, wich means it is not efficient on a capture point for a thief to 1 vs 1 as he will need more space for his mobility or use stealth both will make him lose the point, that doesnt mean thief is bad in 1 vs 1 under different circumstances. IMO thief was allways one of the best in 1 vs 1 on plain open field without anything else to bother then killing the opponent, thats why thief has been soo present in WvW roaming since ever, because if your ready to use whats given to the class we have the potential to kill everything and the potential to survive anyone.

>

> Potential to kill anything and survive (read disengage) against anyone doesn't mean we have the kit to sustain a long fight against anyone.

>

> Thief mostly kill unprepared and less skilled players. Against a skilled player using a proper build, the capability of disengaging its the only part you will remember.

>

> And on SPvP we haven't changed that much. If at all.

 

I disagree. I had the pleaseure playing against very skilled players both SB's (which i consider biggest pain in the butthole for us Thief atm) and necros and revenants. And i was able to kill them as well. (maybe not with the very first try) but after you get used to what a class is able to drop at you you should be pretty able to kick them in the ass. I personally run Cond DD Trapper and i have to say ppl are really pissed off by me constantly killing them. I dont really thing thief is not able to 1v1 sometimes even 2v1 (if one of them is noob xD )

[Frozey.8513]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > > > @"Belishine.7493" said:

> > > > > i think thief needs some love from anet and not this bad mentality of thief is a +1 for fights then thief will be in the spot it needs to be.

> > > >

> > > > It was already confirmed by ANET in a developer post some time ago that, by design, Thief is a +1 class.

> > > > The class is intentionally planned to not be able to 1x1 other classes. I mean, you can beat people on skill difference like any other pvp game, but on paper we shouldn't be able to.

> > > >

> > >

> > > yeah well that was during GW2' short ESL time, there it was the thieves role in spvp. that time is over and GW2 is also changing core designs over the years. this comment was about spvp, wich means it is not efficient on a capture point for a thief to 1 vs 1 as he will need more space for his mobility or use stealth both will make him lose the point, that doesnt mean thief is bad in 1 vs 1 under different circumstances. IMO thief was allways one of the best in 1 vs 1 on plain open field without anything else to bother then killing the opponent, thats why thief has been soo present in WvW roaming since ever, because if your ready to use whats given to the class we have the potential to kill everything and the potential to survive anyone.

> >

> > Potential to kill anything and survive (read disengage) against anyone doesn't mean we have the kit to sustain a long fight against anyone.

> >

> > Thief mostly kill unprepared and less skilled players. Against a skilled player using a proper build, the capability of disengaging its the only part you will remember.

> >

> > And on SPvP we haven't changed that much. If at all.

>

> I disagree. I had the pleaseure playing against very skilled players both SB's (which i consider biggest pain in the kitten for us Thief atm) and necros and revenants.

 

Revenant :joy:

 

 

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > > > @"Belishine.7493" said:

> > > > > i think thief needs some love from anet and not this bad mentality of thief is a +1 for fights then thief will be in the spot it needs to be.

> > > >

> > > > It was already confirmed by ANET in a developer post some time ago that, by design, Thief is a +1 class.

> > > > The class is intentionally planned to not be able to 1x1 other classes. I mean, you can beat people on skill difference like any other pvp game, but on paper we shouldn't be able to.

> > > >

> > >

> > > yeah well that was during GW2' short ESL time, there it was the thieves role in spvp. that time is over and GW2 is also changing core designs over the years. this comment was about spvp, wich means it is not efficient on a capture point for a thief to 1 vs 1 as he will need more space for his mobility or use stealth both will make him lose the point, that doesnt mean thief is bad in 1 vs 1 under different circumstances. IMO thief was allways one of the best in 1 vs 1 on plain open field without anything else to bother then killing the opponent, thats why thief has been soo present in WvW roaming since ever, because if your ready to use whats given to the class we have the potential to kill everything and the potential to survive anyone.

> >

> > Potential to kill anything and survive (read disengage) against anyone doesn't mean we have the kit to sustain a long fight against anyone.

> >

> > **Thief mostly kill unprepared and less skilled players**. Against a skilled player using a proper build, the capability of disengaging its the only part you will remember.

> >

> > And on SPvP we haven't changed that much. If at all.

> yes i know we thieves are the real pros.

> i am not a skilled player at least i get told daily how bad i am, yet i have killed tons of selfproclaimed pvp gods of other classes with my thief - thats how weak we are.

> also how can a skilled player be unprepared ? if you said outnumbered i would understand but unprepared? do you go out into spvp or WvW expecting people to ask you if they may attack you ? no you will go out there expecting someone trying to jump you any second, thats why you have evoiremental awareness before , during and after each fight.

>

 

Again. Thief is specialized at ganking. I am not surprised that thiefs can kill players in optimal conditions. Things change a little in an guild arena fight without environment to kite at starting with a /bow cooldowns free. That is my definition of "direct fair fight".

 

By unprepared I mean the situation that someone without proper condi cleaner meet a condi thief or when someone without any sort of vitality/toughness (berserk or viper) meet a DeadEye Rifle (or any burst thief for all that matters). Encounters on WvW are most of the time, never far for one side.

In that situation I agree that, Thief excells. We can engage and disengage at will, you clearly see the advantages of the class here.

 

*The shorter the fight, the strongest Thief is*. But when you fight someone in a more survival build, the longer the fight goes, the worse it gets. And that's why Thief is not a 1x1 designed class, for us, the fight *always* go downhill.

Naturally, that doesn't mean that Thief can't beat people x1, its just that other classes feel a lot safer in that departament than us.

 

 

> i am not a skilled player at least i get told daily how bad i am

 

You are not giving yourself credit.

Also, when you are going to post that Deadeye MBS build for me to test :anguished:

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Frozey.8513" said:

 

> Revenant :joy:

>

>

 

what is funny about it? 8^/ it is revenant i mean yes they ahve renegade elite etc but the basic class was revenant (-.-)

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

 

> *The shorter the fight, the strongest Thief is*. But when you fight someone in a more survival build, the longer the fight goes, the worse it gets. And that's why Thief is not a 1x1 designed class, for us, the fight *always* go downhill.

> Naturally, that doesn't mean that Thief can't beat people x1, its just that other classes feel a lot safer in that departament than us.

 

I very much like how you said this. And totally agree. Once thief enters a fight it is like if you slide down the hill ini gets spent fast since you burst evades are getting spent since you have to keep yourself alive.

Utilities are used elite is gone

end of the hill close and if you wont finish fight soon enough by killing your foe you will slide down from the clif and die.

That is why playing thief is so much fun for me it is a mad race every time you fight a skilled opponent. And that is why it brings so much joy to me when i actually manage to get kill and survive it.

 

[babazhook.6805]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > > > > @"Belishine.7493" said:

> > > > > > i think thief needs some love from anet and not this bad mentality of thief is a +1 for fights then thief will be in the spot it needs to be.

> > > > >

> > > > > It was already confirmed by ANET in a developer post some time ago that, by design, Thief is a +1 class.

> > > > > The class is intentionally planned to not be able to 1x1 other classes. I mean, you can beat people on skill difference like any other pvp game, but on paper we shouldn't be able to.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > yeah well that was during GW2' short ESL time, there it was the thieves role in spvp. that time is over and GW2 is also changing core designs over the years. this comment was about spvp, wich means it is not efficient on a capture point for a thief to 1 vs 1 as he will need more space for his mobility or use stealth both will make him lose the point, that doesnt mean thief is bad in 1 vs 1 under different circumstances. IMO thief was allways one of the best in 1 vs 1 on plain open field without anything else to bother then killing the opponent, thats why thief has been soo present in WvW roaming since ever, because if your ready to use whats given to the class we have the potential to kill everything and the potential to survive anyone.

> > >

> > > Potential to kill anything and survive (read disengage) against anyone doesn't mean we have the kit to sustain a long fight against anyone.

> > >

> > > **Thief mostly kill unprepared and less skilled players**. Against a skilled player using a proper build, the capability of disengaging its the only part you will remember.

> > >

> > > And on SPvP we haven't changed that much. If at all.

> > yes i know we thieves are the real pros.

> > i am not a skilled player at least i get told daily how bad i am, yet i have killed tons of selfproclaimed pvp gods of other classes with my thief - thats how weak we are.

> > also how can a skilled player be unprepared ? if you said outnumbered i would understand but unprepared? do you go out into spvp or WvW expecting people to ask you if they may attack you ? no you will go out there expecting someone trying to jump you any second, thats why you have evoiremental awareness before , during and after each fight.

> >

>

> Again. Thief is specialized at ganking. I am not surprised that thiefs can kill players in optimal conditions. Things change a little in an guild arena fight without environment to kite at starting with a /bow cooldowns free. That is my definition of "direct fair fight".

>

> By unprepared I mean the situation that someone without proper condi cleaner meet a condi thief or when someone without any sort of vitality/toughness (berserk or viper) meet a DeadEye Rifle (or any burst thief for all that matters). Encounters on WvW are most of the time, never far for one side.

> In that situation I agree that, Thief excells. We can engage and disengage at will, you clearly see the advantages of the class here.

>

> *The shorter the fight, the strongest Thief is*. But when you fight someone in a more survival build, the longer the fight goes, the worse it gets. And that's why Thief is not a 1x1 designed class, for us, the fight *always* go downhill.

> Naturally, that doesn't mean that Thief can't beat people x1, its just that other classes feel a lot safer in that departament than us.

>

>

> > i am not a skilled player at least i get told daily how bad i am

>

> You are not giving yourself credit.

> Also, when you are going to post that Deadeye MBS build for me to test :anguished:

 

I do not necessarily agree on the duration of the fight thing. On a Condition build thief, ini notwithstanding, you can win this fights of long durations and I find that on P/d at least if the fight drags on longer you will slowly gain the upper hand. The reasons for this is that you can generally have more efficient condition cleanses over a Condition enemy you might face and you can continue to apply condition pressure even if you have no INI. Given it a condition build the relative toughness of the enemy not material and given your high poison access your ability to inhibit heals is very high.

 

On a Bursty power build , long drag out fights leave you in a weaker position.