Massive disappointment - spoilers inside.

[Harper.4173]

> @"Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324" said:

> > @ThatOddOne.4387 said:

> > The sylvari still have the Pale Tree.

> > And that still does not address the underlying issues and the problems it causes for the narrative to just have the Gods completely gone.

>

> The sylvari need a Pale Tree to prosper as a race. Nothing indicate that humans need gods to achieve that.

 

Really? They *need* a pale tree to prosper? Well how about humanity? Nothing indicates they need their gods to prosper? How about we look at Tyria's history?

 

Humanity comes to Tyria brought here by the gods. They have nothing - no lands, no civilization. With the help of the gods the conquer lands for themselves and become the dominant species on most of Tyria. Then the exodus of the gods happened and what happend to humanity?

Its three kingdoms in Tyria suffered massively. Ascalon was ravaged by war. Kryta was threatened and taken over by the Mursaat. Orr was destroyed.

Humans in Cantha saw huge turmoil in the following of the jade wind. Let's not get started with Elona.

 

What's the short of it? With the gods and their influence humanity prospered. Without it - we've been doing worse and worse.

 

Bottom line is - as much as I hate to say it - it seems **humanity does in fact need the gods to prosper.** Not to exist -** but to prosper.** I bet the sylvari would exist as well even without their pale tree - but I doubt they'd be prospering.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @Harper.4173 said:

> I'm not saying that we should have let him beat up the dragon and blow up Tyria - I'm saying WHY did they write the gods off and write him into such a cliche in the first place.

The gods are brokenly powerful and would make things too easy. Same reason they had to make up excuses back in Guild Wars 1 as to why the gods never did anything beyond tell people "y'all can do it!"

-The Asuran eternal alchemy is just a philosophical concept to describe nature, and how everything interact on a universal level.

-The Charr's military is limited by mortal means.

-The Norn's spirits are, in all honesty, pretty weak,and several of them got killed by Jormag.

-The Sylvari's dream is limited in what it gives based on what the Sylvari themselves know.

The human gods on the other hand are literal walking, talking, planet destroying, living atomic bombs. Them giving humans even a fraction of thier power allowed humans to dominate the known world for hundreds of years.

[Harper.4173]

> @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

 

> Okay here are the issues with your understanding of the plot in PoF.

>

> 1. This is true, there was no foreshadowing of one of the gods becoming an antagonist however it also stands to reason that how could that have been foreshadowed at all? The gods were in the Mists at the time and the story hadn't delved there quite yet in HoT. The focus was on the dragons. Kormir said that the gods retreated to the Mists not because they realized the dragons were coming, but because they knew a conflict between the gods and the Elder Dragons would have been catastrophic for Tyria. She explained herself that the Crystal Desert was the result of their conflict against Abaddon. Also Balthazar *did* act up at the point the gods retreated to the Mists, Kormir explained it. That is the event that resulted in him being imprisoned and had his powers stripped from him. The only reason he was able to act up at the point of LS3 was due to Rytlock having freed him. Again...all that gets detailed in the story. To summarize that, Balthazar had been chained up since the gods retreated to the Mists due to their unwillingness to endanger Tyria with a conflict with the Elder Dragons, Rytlock then freed him and unintentionally set in motion what we see Balthazar do.

>

> 2. What you just described wouldn't be considered one dimensional, granted it isn't terribly deep either but nonetheless. He did want revenge, he also wanted to kill the dragons due to his own pride, again...described by Kormir. Pride can make someone do tremendously crazy things, mostly due to their unwillingness to either admit fault, admit they are wrong, admit they should/can't do anything. Lots of problems with it. Big indications of that in todays society. Look at the US Government :anguished: . It was Balthazar's pride that lead to him trying to defy what his fellow gods had decided, and his subsequent imprisonment, seclusion and stripping of his divine power is what lead that pride to turn to what we see in PoF. Similar thing happened with Abaddon, except this had no prophecy.

>

> 3. True, he was in a gray area due to him being the literal god of war, however in that same thought he did not believe what he was doing to be evil, or wrong because it was conflict and he is the god of war, he was meaning to put an end to the Elder Dragons and didn't care of the consequences. One of the priests of Balthazar you interact with put it pretty well, he said "Pfft, he's the god of war! I don't worship him because he loves puppies." in response to the Commander saying Balthazar doesn't care about Kryta or Tyria.

>

> 4. Yes it was one man/woman with a magical artifact, one we know has some pretty significant magical power due to what we know its sister blade did, Magdaer and the Foefire, and Sohothin had been reignited by Balthazar himself meaning it was his own magic imbued into the weapon. Sohothin and Magdaer, if you remember, were magical swords gifted to Ascalon by Orr as a sign of peace. Balthazar could have been the one who had initially imbued them with their fire. He *is* also the god of fire and we know the gods had a presence in Orr for a period of time and that Magdaer and Sohothin existed during the time when the gods did walk Tyria. Stands to reason that these weapons were pretty powerful just within their own rights. As for Aurene, we learned in the story that Glint and her offspring seemed to be key in containing magical power and keeping it in balance. We learned quite a bit about how maybe the magic held by the elder dragons needed to be transferred and they needed to be "replaced" to maintain balance. It was more the combined power of you, Sohothin, and Aurene that was able to bring down Balthazar, also don't forget that Kralkatorrik got involved in the fight a bit even if he didn't care who he hit. Aurene may have been young, but she is still a dragon and has some pretty potent magical power. We even got to use the lil trick we learned with her in one of the earlier living story chapters.

>

> Now see I can understand your issues, I can, and you have every right to be dissatisfied with the plot. Can't please everyone. However, you missed a number of points in the plot that I think would have cleared up some of those misunderstandings I pointed out. Maybe try playing through it again, get a better grasp of what happened.

>

> Also lets be clear here...GW1 story was good, but it wasn't great. Nor was the lore that great. It is *good* but please don't go acting like GW1 is some sort of saint. The voice acting was not good, by any margin, there were a number of cliches, Kormir herself was an issue (that is a whole other debate), and the characters you traveled with were quite a bit meh until much later into the game when they introduced the hero teams. I loved GW1, its story, and its lore, still love it, but don't make the mistake of thinking it was miles better than what we have in GW2, especially with the direction PoF went and the quality of the details (the voice acting, the animations, cinematics, etc).

 

1. You are wrong. Balthazar DID NOT act when the gods retreated to the mists from Tyria - the even known as the exodus of the gods and there is proof in GW1 lore (which as far as I know is still canon) that this is so. If the event that we saw in Kormir's instance happened BEFORE Guild Wars 1 - as you claim - then how come GW1 lore contradicts it?

Here's a contradiction - the Fissure of Woe - Balthazar's realm. During GW1 you can enter it and the dialogue inside clearly states that at this point in time (which again I will point out takes place AFTER the Exodus of the gods) Balthazar is still the God of War and hasn't been removed by the other gods. Check the dialogue.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/A_Gift_of_Griffons

Better yet - I will quote it - "I wish to make a gift of three Forest Griffons to the **master of this realm, Great Balthazar, God of War**. Please gather three griffons from my forest and lead them to the Tower of Courage that Balthazar and all who serve him may know of the loyalty that we in the forest hold toward him."

 

I think it is you not I who has a problem in understanding the chronology of GW lore.

 

2. First of all - please let's keep politics out of this discussion. I have no interest in discussing the US Government in this thread. The problem is - as you quite well summed up yourself is that we've already had this story - it was indeed Abbadon's story line. Why redo it with another god? Why not change it? Make it different? Why not give it some more depth and maybe take it in a different direction?

To me - just copying what another team did years ago and switching up the names is bad writing.

 

3. Again - I feel it's odd he's not siding with humanity again and maybe helping himself through them to wage this war. In fact - I find it very odd that he chose to disguise himself as Lazarus and then using mercenaries in the first place.

 

4. I remember what the swords were. I just haven't ever seen them work so I feel it's pulled out of thin air. Also it doesn't explain why never before their power is fully used - why Rurik never uses it to this extend - why the charr doesn't either. It feels off and I really can't accept it even if you clearly can and happily do.

 

I have fully understood the plot - I just have a different level of suspension of disbelief than you do. Things that sit right with you don't sit right with me - because they're a far cry from what I expected in terms of story.

GW1's story was good, and its lore was good. I'm not saying it was perfect - I'm saying it was miles ahead of what we've gotten in GW2 in terms of consistency, character development, world building and let's not forget atmosphere. It had its highs and lows - but honestly - GW2 is waaaaay worse in almost every way.

Also I think you confuse technical means (voice acting) with actual STORY and LORE quality. These are different - very different things.

I also enjoyed the characters we traveled with - they felt more realistic than the ones we have now. They were more quiet, more "natural" then the ones that spew drama and clever one liners every minute I have orbiting around me now.

Like Taimi - for example - whose reaction to your death and subsequent resurrection is "poke the commander". Yeah - thanks but no thanks.

 

" I loved GW1, its story, and its lore, still love it, but don't make the mistake of thinking it was miles better than what we have in GW2, especially with the direction PoF went and the quality of the details (the voice acting, the animations, cinematics, etc)."

Again - I must point out - story and lore are NOT voice acting, animations or cinematics. These are TECHNICAL means. They're not story and not lore.

Think of it like this - a BOOK can have a great story and great lore and it certainly has NO voice acting, no animations and no cinematics. There's a clear difference.

[Harper.4173]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @Harper.4173 said:

> > I'm not saying that we should have let him beat up the dragon and blow up Tyria - I'm saying WHY did they write the gods off and write him into such a cliche in the first place.

> The gods are brokenly powerful and would make things too easy. Same reason they had to make up excuses back in Guild Wars 1 as to why the gods never did anything beyond tell people "y'all can do it!"

> -The Asuran eternal alchemy is just a philosophical concept to describe nature, and how everything interact on a universal level.

> -The Charr's military is limited by mortal means.

> -The Norn's spirits are, in all honesty, pretty weak,and several of them got killed by Jormag.

> -The Sylvari's dream is limited in what it gives based on what the Sylvari themselves know.

> The human gods on the other hand are literal walking, talking, planet destroying, living atomic bombs. Them giving humans even a fraction of thier power allowed humans to dominate the known world for hundreds of years.

 

So then let them hover as a presence - allow them to be a part of the story without giving them the chance to upside everything - like GW1 did. They could have said the gods are busy in the mists dealing with all the issues the recent imbalances in magic flow on Tyria have caused.

This still leaves open so many opportunities - such as the possibility of visiting their realms.

 

Also - some of the other races have it worse (Norn, Sylvari) but if you don't see how overpowered Asura and Charr are in terms of lore - wow.

The Charr have access to a military industrial complex that no other race can match. They steamrolled across Tyria even before they had that - and humans barely stopped them.

The Asura are clearly the most overpowered race - with their capacity for magitech. I would say that Anet could easily make everything too easy if they chose to write asura solutions for all problems - which they've sort of done in the past to a limited degree. So if they can reign in the overpowered nature of Asura tech - why couldn't the gods be in a similar place?

[Harper.4173]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @Harper.4173 said:

> > So we all know by now how the expansion story turned out. I feel it is by far the *weakest* part of the expansion, which overall stands out as a very good expansion - to me at least.

> > The problem I'm having is with how straight forward their approach to making Balthazar the villain was. And how quickly the door was closed on old lore, the gods, and anything that has to do with the human-aspect of the lore.

> >

> > Back when Balthazar was first introduced in the LS and teased as a major part of PoF I was both excited and afraid - afraid something like this might happen. Still - I believed and held hope that they'd work something *interesting* and engaging into the expansion. I hoped that it wouldn't be just "This is Balthazar - he's the new bad guy - go fight, pursue and eventually kill him".

> > I had hopes that maybe there'd be a plot twist, that they wouldn't serve one of the core elements of this game's lore up as just another filler enemy that you fight and kill on the premise of "he's the new bad guy now, go get him". I hoped that as we progressed through the story we'd find a complex situation, with nuances, tones of grey not just - he's bad and you're good.

> >

> > I'm also disappointed by the ending - one man and an underdeveloped elder dragon spawnling going toe to toe with an incredibly powerful entity and killing him. I never imagined they'd go this far.

> > When it became clear to me we'd eventually haven o big twist, no reveal, nothing more than killing Balthazar I still imagined it would go down differently - perhaps he'd fight it out with Kralk only for us to step in and surprise him when he's distracted or weak - but no - you fight him one on one and beat him. The absurdity still sticks in my mind and I fear may never go away.

> > I had to write this up because I feel it was very poorly handled. It was very clear they want to shut the door on the old lore. I personally hate it.

>

> There's truth in that. But personally, I prefer to see this as a bridge story. First, it set up the next immediate threat right away. Something I did not expect. And there's a twist there all right - unlike all the immediate threats so far, we *can't* go and kill Kralkatorrik.

> Second, it underlined the bond between Aurene and the Commander. I'm fairly certain this is going to be a key part of the story. Which makes the way Balthazar gets defeated sort of justified.

>

> I fully agree he's still wasted potential though. "Grrrr, moar power" is quite boring as far as villain motivations go. But it seems to me they're using this story to set up something more interesting. Could be just wishful thinking. We'll see soon enough.

 

I've been waiting for that "more interesting" part ever since we've had LW Season 1. Every time they wrote something sub-par I gave a pass thinking - they're setting up something better. It's been almost 4 years - I finally understood it's not going that way.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @Harper.4173 said:

> So then let them hover as a presence - allow them to be a part of the story without giving them the chance to upside everything - like GW1 did.

Guild Wars 1 didn't though. The gods had no real part in Prophecies, Factions, or Eye of the North. The only time they did anything was in Nightfall, where they collectively told Kromir and the rest of the party that they couldn't do anything about Abbadon, and that it was up to mortals to suck it up and figure it out themselves.

[Harper.4173]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @Harper.4173 said:

> > So we all know by now how the expansion story turned out. I feel it is by far the *weakest* part of the expansion, which overall stands out as a very good expansion - to me at least.

> > The problem I'm having is with how straight forward their approach to making Balthazar the villain was. And how quickly the door was closed on old lore, the gods, and anything that has to do with the human-aspect of the lore.

> >

> > Back when Balthazar was first introduced in the LS and teased as a major part of PoF I was both excited and afraid - afraid something like this might happen. Still - I believed and held hope that they'd work something *interesting* and engaging into the expansion. I hoped that it wouldn't be just "This is Balthazar - he's the new bad guy - go fight, pursue and eventually kill him".

> > I had hopes that maybe there'd be a plot twist, that they wouldn't serve one of the core elements of this game's lore up as just another filler enemy that you fight and kill on the premise of "he's the new bad guy now, go get him". I hoped that as we progressed through the story we'd find a complex situation, with nuances, tones of grey not just - he's bad and you're good.

> >

> > I'm also disappointed by the ending - one man and an underdeveloped elder dragon spawnling going toe to toe with an incredibly powerful entity and killing him. I never imagined they'd go this far.

> > When it became clear to me we'd eventually haven o big twist, no reveal, nothing more than killing Balthazar I still imagined it would go down differently - perhaps he'd fight it out with Kralk only for us to step in and surprise him when he's distracted or weak - but no - you fight him one on one and beat him. The absurdity still sticks in my mind and I fear may never go away.

> > I had to write this up because I feel it was very poorly handled. It was very clear they want to shut the door on the old lore. I personally hate it.

>

> There's truth in that. But personally, I prefer to see this as a bridge story. First, it set up the next immediate threat right away. Something I did not expect. And there's a twist there all right - unlike all the immediate threats so far, we *can't* go and kill Kralkatorrik.

> Second, it underlined the bond between Aurene and the Commander. I'm fairly certain this is going to be a key part of the story. Which makes the way Balthazar gets defeated sort of justified.

>

> I fully agree he's still wasted potential though. "Grrrr, moar power" is quite boring as far as villain motivations go. But it seems to me they're using this story to set up something more interesting. Could be just wishful thinking. We'll see soon enough.

 

I've been waiting for that "more interesting" part ever since we've had LW Season 1. Every time they wrote something sub-par I gave a pass thinking - they're setting up something better. It's been almost 4 years - I finally understood it's not going that way. > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @Harper.4173 said:

> > So then let them hover as a presence - allow them to be a part of the story without giving them the chance to upside everything - like GW1 did.

> Guild Wars 1 didn't though. The gods had no real part in Prophecies, Factions, or Eye of the North. The only time they did anything was in Nightfall, where they collectively told Kromir and the rest of the party that they couldn't do anything about Abbadon, and that it was up to mortals to suck it up and figure it out themselves.

 

You are not getting me - the gods had no active part in the STORY of GW1 but their existence allowed for different things to happen. We got to visit UW and FoW. We had stories in those places and quests related to the gods. We had access to a lot more things.

By allowing them to exist in the mists in GW2 and not writing them off Anet could have kept the door open on new and interesting areas - revisiting FoW or UW or even trying to go to a new realm of a different god - perhaps Lyssa. After seeing what they did with Twisted Castle in raids wouldn't you want to see a realm of Lyssa in GW2?

 

 

[Ithilwen.1529]

@OP

 

You missed some things. The story line had all the elements of a classic mythological hero's journey. We even sojourned in the underworld to recover knowledge we needed to win in the end. ( of Joko's army waiting to be exploited. ) With some minor flaws, this was outstanding storytelling in the bardic tradition.

 

The message was essentially the same as that of Nightfall back in GW1. You, hero, and all of the people of Tyria... carry the divine within. You can do this! You don't need to be babysat.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

You are completely missing the point, still, it's not being babysat to have the gods there in the background as they have always been since GW1. Writing them off and shutting them out completely is the problem.

[Harper.4173]

> @Ithilwen.1529 said:

> @OP

>

> You missed some things. The story line had all the elements of a classic mythological hero's journey. We even sojourned in the underworld to recover knowledge we needed to win in the end. ( of Joko's army waiting to be exploited. ) With some minor flaws, this was outstanding storytelling in the bardic tradition.

>

> The message was essentially the same as that of Nightfall back in GW1. You, hero, and all of the people of Tyria... carry the divine within. You can do this! You don't need to be babysat.

 

I agree - but the problems are - the story has deviated a lot from the original lore - and I'm really not the only one saying this. It feels off because there are some pretty big plot holes in it.

Another issue is that **I don't think we needed to redo nightfall all over again** - we've already had the Abbadon arc. They literally did it again and called it a day. It was good the first time. This time it's just forced.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @Thalador.4218 said:

> They did nothing but chose to flee and condemn the people they had saved millennia ago to a slow, painful destruction. This would never have happened if the writers actually cared about the lore and paid attention. The Six has been retconned into a bunch of uncaring, incompetent idiots that do nothing good with their eternal power and wisdom.

 

Given how they acted during Nightfall - e.g., doing jack shit - are we so sure that's a retcon?

 

The gods have always had a rule of non-commitment in GW lore. The most Grenth did during the course of Nightfall was give Olias a vision and send him to help out the Sunspears, while what Lyssa did was give Priestess Kehanni a vision to do the same. And they did literally nothing during Prophecies and Factions. In all lore we have, the only thing gods did - beyond the war with Abaddon - was bless humans to do things for them.

 

So... is that really changed at all? If anything, Kormir has done far more than the other gods did since the Exodus.

[Jaken.6801]

> @Ithilwen.1529 said:

> @OP

>

> You missed some things. The story line had all the elements of a classic mythological hero's journey. We even sojourned in the underworld to recover knowledge we needed to win in the end. ( of Joko's army waiting to be exploited. ) With some minor flaws, this was outstanding storytelling in the bardic tradition.

>

> The message was essentially the same as that of Nightfall back in GW1. You, hero, and all of the people of Tyria... carry the divine within. You can do this! You don't need to be babysat.

 

Final Fantasy XIII also had this story on paper.

With faulty gods, fighting and rising against destiny, etc.

 

However it failed in execution and never really really connected the dots or made the importance of things very clear.

It also suffered from putting too much stuff outside the main narrative. Like the whole background story, or details, which were only explained in some text in the menu.

 

PoF is kinda the same.

[Thalador.4218]

> @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

> Okay here are the issues with your understanding of the plot in PoF.

>

> 1. This is true, there was no foreshadowing of one of the gods becoming an antagonist however it also stands to reason that how could that have been foreshadowed at all? The gods were in the Mists at the time and the story hadn't delved there quite yet in HoT. The focus was on the dragons. Kormir said that the gods retreated to the Mists not because they realized the dragons were coming, but because they knew a conflict between the gods and the Elder Dragons would have been catastrophic for Tyria. She explained herself that the Crystal Desert was the result of their conflict against Abaddon. Also Balthazar *did* act up at the point the gods retreated to the Mists, Kormir explained it. That is the event that resulted in him being imprisoned and had his powers stripped from him. The only reason he was able to act up at the point of LS3 was due to Rytlock having freed him. Again...all that gets detailed in the story. To summarize that, Balthazar had been chained up since the gods retreated to the Mists due to their unwillingness to endanger Tyria with a conflict with the Elder Dragons, Rytlock then freed him and unintentionally set in motion what we see Balthazar do.

 

1. Factually wrong. The gods have withdrawn to the Mists / their realms with Exodus but they remained a caring and watchful presence for a humanity that they wanted to teach how to stand firmly on their own feet and actually thrive. A couple of decades after Abaddon's defeat and Kormir's ascension, they went completely silent. No more prayers answered, no more avatars sent, no more favor of the gods, no more blessings through shrines and priests, no more access to the Hall of Heroes, et cetera. In the vanilla game we learn from a high-ranking Priestess of Grenth that [they are not even in the Mists anymore](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Speaker_of_the_Dead#Dialogue "they are not even in the Mists anymore")!

 

"Where have they gone?

No one knows. Not into the Mists, that's for certain. Perhaps they simply want to allow us to decide our own fates."

 

Heh, guess another blatant retcon - after all, we totally find Kormir in the Mists. But then again: they weren't supposed to be in the Mists and no one, including their most faithful mortal servants, knew where they were. So Balthazar was reasonable in the established lore to both understand that their presence on Tyria was endangering humanity and that the open warfare against the Elder Dragons would destroy Tyria and humanity; and as such he left with the others to the Mists and supported their decision to _slowly_ distance themselves from the world in order to make humanity independent and self-sufficient. As I've said in at least two other threads, had Balthazar called out the other gods as cowards for abandoning their people and Tyria and giving up on them without a fight, I would have had way less problems with the writing and plot. But no; they had to destroy Balthazar's personality and murder his honorable but flawed character to justify writing a god fight into the story.

 

> @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

> 2. What you just described wouldn't be considered one dimensional, granted it isn't terribly deep either but nonetheless. He did want revenge, he also wanted to kill the dragons due to his own pride, again...described by Kormir. Pride can make someone do tremendously crazy things, mostly due to their unwillingness to either admit fault, admit they are wrong, admit they should/can't do anything. Lots of problems with it. Big indications of that in todays society. Look at the US Government :anguished: . It was Balthazar's pride that lead to him trying to defy what his fellow gods had decided, and his subsequent imprisonment, seclusion and stripping of his divine power is what lead that pride to turn to what we see in PoF. Similar thing happened with Abaddon, except this had no prophecy.

>3. True, he was in a gray area due to him being the literal god of war, however in that same thought he did not believe what he was doing to be evil, or wrong because it was conflict and he is the god of war, he was meaning to put an end to the Elder Dragons and didn't care of the consequences. One of the priests of Balthazar you interact with put it pretty well, he said "Pfft, he's the god of war! I don't worship him because he loves puppies." in response to the Commander saying Balthazar doesn't care about Kryta or Tyria.

 

2. & 3. The Scourge of the Prideful would never have been so foolish. I will link in two posts I wrote on this issue to show that Balthazar of old - the one neatly established in the lore - would never have done the things the PoF "Balthazar" said and did in this expansion (and in Season 3):

 

- https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/154261/#Comment_154261

- https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/156769/#Comment_156769

 

Furthermore, even in the case of the character-butchered PoF "Balthazar" / Abaddon 2.0, his actions make no sense. He attacked the one person with whom he could agree on conflict, power, the handling of the Elder Dragons, while helping the future "cowardly hippies" to detain Abaddon. Then this conflict-loving madman somehow agreed to withdrew himself from Tyria despite claiming he cares nothing about the consequences or how many mortal insects die as a result. And as the very last insult to common sense, he then realizes it would be fun to go and kill the dragons just like Abaddon most likely intended to begin with. No, no matter how you twist and wriggle with what was presented in the story, there's absolutely no way to salvage this mess.

 

> @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

>Now see I can understand your issues, I can, and you have every right to be dissatisfied with the plot. Can't please everyone. However, you missed a number of points in the plot that I think would have cleared up some of those misunderstandings I pointed out. Maybe try playing through it again, get a better grasp of what happened.

 

Not to be rude or anything, but given that you told Harper that he either hadn't paid attention and/or had misunderstood the plot and needed to get a better grasp of it, it's only fitting if I point out that you seemingly didn't pay much attention to the previously established lore of Guild Wars.

 

> @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

> Also lets be clear here...GW1 story was good, but it wasn't great. Nor was the lore that great. It is *good* but please don't go acting like GW1 is some sort of saint. The voice acting was not good, by any margin, there were a number of cliches, Kormir herself was an issue (that is a whole other debate), and the characters you traveled with were quite a bit meh until much later into the game when they introduced the hero teams. I loved GW1, its story, and its lore, still love it, but don't make the mistake of thinking it was miles better than what we have in GW2, especially with the direction PoF went and the quality of the details (the voice acting, the animations, cinematics, etc).

 

Guild Wars campaigns and stories were miles better because they were coherent, meaningful, logical, didn't disrespect the lore established in previous installations and made sense in their connecting of dots from previous games. Sure, they weren't of a Song of Ice and Fire level in complexity, but they had great and immersive storylines that expanded on lore smartly and neatly.

 

Also, about the characters and voice acting: I could say the main characters you travel with here (e.g. Taimi, Braham, Rox, Jory, Trahearne, Logan, the sassy Livia they changed from the cool, dark and mysterious Livia of GW: EotN) are "quite meh" - I personally enjoyed the company of Tahlkora, Koss, Jurah, Dunkoro and the others (even more so in the case of the EotN heroes) a lot more. As for voice acting: it isn't great in GW2, either. I mean, just listen to Kormir and how her voice buckles at completely random parts in her dialogue. My point is: you cannot say GW2 outdid Guild Wars in these aspects.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> Given how they acted during Nightfall - e.g., doing jack kitten - are we so sure that's a retcon?

>

> The gods have always had a rule of non-commitment in GW lore. The most Grenth did during the course of Nightfall was give Olias a vision and send him to help out the Sunspears, while what Lyssa did was give Priestess Kehanni a vision to do the same. And they did literally nothing during Prophecies and Factions. In all lore we have, the only thing gods did - beyond the war with Abaddon - was bless humans to do things for them.

>

> So... is that really changed at all? If anything, Kormir has done far more than the other gods did since the Exodus.

 

I don't think they had a choice. I've always got the feeling that the Realm of Torment was a very hostile, very dangerous territory for them and was otherwise off-limits even for entry (hence why we needed a super-holy place to get a strong enough signal to reach them beyond the veil of Torment). They couldn't just waltz in and slap Abaddon into submission - maybe they even had a few likely replacements in mind but could never get him/her to succeed in supplanting him. The demons all the way to Ravenheart Gloom would have rushed them and swamped them like moths and bugs do to a superbly brilliant light source.

 

As for why they didn't do anything during Prophecies and Factions? You cannot get access to the Realm of Torment or intel on what's going on in there, all the while Abaddon has brewed out this brilliant master scheme over the centuries on how to get revenge and free himself. He does it low-key at first, after a very long time: charr influenced through the titans, one of his demons planting the bug in Shiro's ear that the Emperor Angsiyan wanted to kill him, from which we get the Jade Wind. I doubt any agents of the god went to investigate in either of these cases. Then in 1070 AE all hell breaks lose, and while the gods are busy in their realms: Ascalon is seared, Orr is sunk with hundreds of thousands becoming casualties (I bet Grenth was lost in paperwork for a long time). Still, they did focus their gaze on Tyira to aid the Ascension of the Ascalonian heroes, thus giving them the means to see the mursaat and fight them. And in Factions, Grenth's employees, the Envoys, do resurrect the Canthan heroes who Shiro killed with a simple spell. And three years later they give the blessings to the Sunspear heroes who fight Abaddon: blessings that prevent Abaddon from outright killing them with a thought or making them go blind just by looking at him (plus probably all the other blessings and favors one could get from the avatars). They were involved, they cared but they were simply not prepared for Abaddon's revenge with no knowledge of what he was up to in enemy territory, aided by virtually most demons of the Mists, a demi-god (Menzies) and his army, another deposed god (Dhuum) and his agents, and who knows what else.

 

 

[Thornwolf.9721]

They stopped caring about the plot a long time ago, It's all about that E-sports. Thats what they care about, which is why when it comes to plot or content outside of what they can shoe-horn into pvp OR monetize the piss out of (mounts,gliders ect) it wont happen or it will be half assed.

[Rognik.2579]

> @Thalador.4218 said:

> Furthermore, even in the case of the character-butchered PoF "Balthazar" / Abaddon 2.0, his actions make no sense. He attacked the one person with whom he could agree on conflict, power, the handling of the Elder Dragons, while helping the future "cowardly hippies" to detain Abaddon. Then this conflict-loving madman somehow agreed to withdrew himself from Tyria despite claiming he cares nothing about the consequences or how many mortal insects die as a result. And as the very last insult to common sense, he then realizes it would be fun to go and kill the dragons just like Abaddon most likely intended to begin with. No, no matter how you twist and wriggle with what was presented in the story, there's absolutely no way to salvage this mess.

Did he agree to withdraw, though? It was never specified when this meeting Kormir alludes to relative to the meeting. Here's how I can see it going down: the gods have their meeting, the vote is 5 to 1 in favour of withdrawing, with Balthazar going "No, I will slay all the dragons!" The other gods, knowing this will cause problems, drain him of his power, chain him up in the Mists, and then withdraw themselves. Balthazar stays in the Mists until Sohothin lands beside him and, well, you know the rest.

 

Does that work for you, at least timeline-wise?

[Athrenn.9468]

> @Thalador.4218 said:

> If they cared, they would've done one of the following:

>

> A.) Evacuate the Tyrian human population and everyone else who wanted to escape "certain" doom to another world that doesn't have eldritch abominations feasting on life and magic. Just like they saved humanity in the first place and brought them to Tyria from an unknown calamity that possibly destroyed their homeworld.

> B.) Understand that Glint and the Forgotten were working on multiple viable projects that could fix the extremes of the dragon cycles and prevent the destruction of life and the disappearance of magic in draconic bellies. They could've worked from their realms through proxies (avatars, champions, priests, priestesses, divine interventions, etc.) to further that plan and help Glint realize her designs to save Tyria.

>

> They did nothing but chose to flee and condemn the people they had saved millennia ago to a slow, painful destruction. This would never have happened if the writers actually cared about the lore and paid attention. The Six has been retconned into a bunch of uncaring, incompetent idiots that do nothing good with their eternal power and wisdom.

 

In response to your first point, I'm just going to repost this here so that more people are aware of it.

 

There's a book written by some follower of Kormir entitled _[The Garden of the Gods](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Garden_of_the_Gods "The Garden of the Gods")_. It seems to suggest that their true plan may be to find another world and evacuate whoever they choose to come with them. This could mean that they're winding down GW2 and aiming for GW3 on a brand new world in the next few years.

 

> After long hours of prayer, the goddess of truth herself has at last revealed the answers I sought. Praise Kormir! In her name, I will share the reasons behind our gods' withdrawal from this world.

>

> And make no mistake: the gods have withdrawn. Prayers go unanswered, Ascension fails. But do not despair, or ages: our gods still love us, and it is that love that drove them to leave.

>

> When the gods first brought humanity to this world, they were planting a garden; we were the seeds, with Tyria the fertile soil in which we would thrive.

>

> Like all gardens, it would experience and demonstrate life, death, challenge, order, growth, and beauty as it matured from carefully arranged rows of potential into dynamic, evolving reality.

>

> But there was a blight below the soil the gardeners could not prepare for; a predatory threat that would consume both the garden and the nutrients that sustained it: the Elder Dragons.

>

> When the dragons rose, the gods realized a terrible truth: any effort to save the garden would instead destroy it... or them. If humanity was to endure under their guidance, it could not be here.

>

> Reluctantly, the gods withdrew. They had to find new soil to tend, that their faithful might someday see the full, resplendent bloom of this most glorious garden. Praise Kormir!

[Thalador.4218]

> @Rognik.2579 said:

> Did he agree to withdraw, though? It was never specified when this meeting Kormir alludes to relative to the meeting. Here's how I can see it going down: the gods have their meeting, the vote is 5 to 1 in favour of withdrawing, with Balthazar going "No, I will slay all the dragons!" The other gods, knowing this will cause problems, drain him of his power, chain him up in the Mists, and then withdraw themselves. Balthazar stays in the Mists until Sohothin lands beside him and, well, you know the rest.

>

> Does that work for you, at least timeline-wise?

 

Timeline-wise, it looks something like this:

- 1 BE - Magic released from the bloodstone and gifted to various races by Abaddon. Other gods see the destruction wrought by the overabundance of magic and hear King Doric's plea to end the cataclysmic wars that are putting humanity in grave danger. They - including Balthazar - comply with this sentiment. Abaddon rebels against the decision, rallying his most devoted followers against the Forgotten and marching on the Gates of Heaven with the possible goal of removing Dwayna from power and becoming the new leader of the Six. The other gods join Dwayna and smite Abaddon because they see him as a liability. (Given that now we know for certain the gods had known about the Elder Dragons since the beginning, it's more than possible Abaddon's plan with the release of bloodstone magic was to accelerate their awakening process and get to dealing with them ASAP - something PoF "Balthazar" would've loved to see through.)

- 0 AE - Seeing what their war did to the land - and possibly fearing such incredible magical upheavals will wake the dragons - the remaining five (including Balthazar!) all withdraw to the Mists and leave Tyria behind. The villain we fought in this expansion didn't care about the fate of mortals or the world, yet Balthazar of old clearly understood this and saw reason in distancing himself from mortals. Just when would have the PoF comic book villain actually cared about his presence causing death, destruction and conflict?

- Fast-forward to 1075 AE: Balthazar is still a full-fledged god of war, helping humanity deal with Abaddon for good - without attacking the Realm of Torment and brining about an "end of the world" kind of war raging across the Mists. The guy who loved conflict so much in PoF that he claimed he was the personification of conflict would not have been deterred by such consequences: he'd have bullrushed headlong into the RoT to fight Abaddon and his armies, thirsting for another epic fight.

- Sometime between 1075 AE and 1330 AE, after they've disappeared even from the Mists and realms to somewhere else (as Priestess Rhie claims), Balthazar catches to his head and goes full mental, realizing Abaddon was right about everything, and calls out the other gods not for abandoning Tyria and their chosen people to their doom, but for wanting to take away his chance to fight and slay Elder Dragons.

 

He withdrew completely. He was reasonable and understood what Dwayna and co. wanted. Then it came down to the decision at ANet that the gods need to be written out ASAP in a cool-looking way, so they picked the one that can easily be molded into becoming a villain, retconned his personality, his principles, his decisions, and threw him into the plot as the antagonist to give us a flashy, particle-effects-heavy god fight.

 

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> In response to your first point, I'm just going to repost this here so that more people are aware of it.

>

> There's a book written by some follower of Kormir entitled _[The Garden of the Gods](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Garden_of_the_Gods "The Garden of the Gods")_. It seems to suggest that their true plan may be to find another world and evacuate whoever they choose to come with them. This could mean that they're winding down GW2 and aiming for GW3 on a brand new world in the next few years.

>

> > After long hours of prayer, the goddess of truth herself has at last revealed the answers I sought. Praise Kormir! In her name, I will share the reasons behind our gods' withdrawal from this world.

> >

> > And make no mistake: the gods have withdrawn. Prayers go unanswered, Ascension fails. But do not despair, or ages: our gods still love us, and it is that love that drove them to leave.

> >

> > When the gods first brought humanity to this world, they were planting a garden; we were the seeds, with Tyria the fertile soil in which we would thrive.

> >

> > Like all gardens, it would experience and demonstrate life, death, challenge, order, growth, and beauty as it matured from carefully arranged rows of potential into dynamic, evolving reality.

> >

> > But there was a blight below the soil the gardeners could not prepare for; a predatory threat that would consume both the garden and the nutrients that sustained it: the Elder Dragons.

> >

> > When the dragons rose, the gods realized a terrible truth: any effort to save the garden would instead destroy it... or them. If humanity was to endure under their guidance, it could not be here.

> >

> > Reluctantly, the gods withdrew. They had to find new soil to tend, that their faithful might someday see the full, resplendent bloom of this most glorious garden. Praise Kormir!

 

I saw this on the wiki a couple of days ago. Unfortunately, I cannot share your optimism on their plans of creating a utopia on a safe world and _then_ returning for their people and anyone else who wants an out to be evacuated there (that would actually make sense). To me, this writing comes off as the ramblings of thirsty zealot who, after having suffered a sunstroke, is most satisfied with the notion that the gods have abandoned them but are looking to create a paradise elsewhere while leaving everyone on Tyria to die.

 

[Cristalyan.5728]

 

> @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

"To summarize that, Balthazar had been chained up since the gods retreated to the Mists due to their unwillingness to endanger Tyria with a conflict with the Elder Dragons, Rytlock then freed him and unintentionally set in motion what we see Balthazar do."

 

This can be a good reason (and can suggest that the gods are smart and responsible) **BUT** they already know what the result of non implication is - see the jotun story:

 

"When the Elder Dragons last rose, the jotun, like the other races of the world, possessed the ability to use magic with no restrictions until the Seers sealed it all within the Bloodstone."

It was before the rise of the Human race, before the actual awakening cycle. And the gods were in Tyria. It was the moment when the five ancient races allied to fight the dragons (without the help of the gods). They lost and the result is that only the Jotun still survives today as primitive beings.

 

So, with the help of the gods, Tyria is in danger. Without the help of the gods Tyria is destroyed by the dragons. **WHAT**?

 

From what I understand from lore:

1. It seems that all the actions of the gods were designed to keep the dragons alive.

2. The decision of the Gods are not a result of consensus, but rather an unanimity. If one god disagrees with the majority he is eliminated. This can be tolerated once (in the Abadon case) - although Abadon was the less likely to make mistakes in the prediction of how the things will evolve. But the Balthazar recidive? Hm. This makes me wonder if Dhuum was indeed so bad as the history claims. Being replaced by Dwayna's son, I can suspect a conspiracy against him, conspiracy driven by personal reasons and not by the desire to protect the humans.

3. The gods being worthless in the fight for the survival of Tyria, I think the next action should be to hunt down all the remaining gods to take their power. In order to use this power against the dragons.

 

The story is not only incoherent. The story (as per the LS3 story and PoF) is even contradictory. How can you as a god to claim that you want the best things for your followers when you leave them? If you fight to protect them you can hurt them. So, is better to leave them to be surely killed.

 

This is the second god deciding to act against the dragons. And this is the second god "silenced" by the other gods.

 

As a sidenote - I was content when the Omadd machine was destroyed. I was sure no other " suddenly OP objects" appearing out of the blue will help us. But I was wrong. It seems the sword is far more powerful than the machine.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @Cristalyan.5728 said:

 

> 2. The decision of the Gods are not a result of consensus, but rather an unanimity. If one god disagrees with the majority he is eliminated. This can be tolerated once (in the Abadon case) - although Abadon was the less likely to make mistakes in the prediction of how the things will evolve. But the Balthazar recidive? Hm. This makes me wonder if Dhuum was indeed so bad as the history claims. Being replaced by Dwayna's son, I can suspect a conspiracy against him, conspiracy driven by personal reasons and not by the desire to protect the humans.

 

In each case (Dhuum being a possible exception, since we don't know the circumstances), the trigger seems to be less 'disagreement' and more 'when outvoted, throws a massive tantrum and becomes a loose cannon that needs to be restrained'.

 

If I'm part of a group and the group, including myself, decides that a particular course of action will do more harm than good, and someone disagrees, that's one thing. If that someone then attacks the rest of the group, then stopping them becomes a matter of self-defence. If that someone responds by trying to perform the action that everyone else agreed would cause more harm than good, the responsible thing for the rest of the group to do is to act to prevent them from performing that action.

 

On #3: If the gods really do have responsibilities elsewhere, than hunting them down to seize their power might cause more harm than good, even assuming the gods don't respond with "really, now they're attacking us? Fine, we'll join forces and destroy them ourselves, then!" Because, seriously, if Dwayna, Melandru, Grenth and Lyssa decide that the Black Citadel, for instance, needs to be destroyed, I know which side my money is on. We're talking beings whose power is at least comparable to the Elder Dragons here, but which unlike the Elder Dragons, normally act in concert as a group.

 

The gods are staying out because they're afraid that getting involved would cause so much destruction that the world is better off if they don't. Whether they're right is open to interpretation, but certainly we've seen their capacity to inflict massive destruction. I don't think provoking them as a group is a good idea.

 

(On 1: It does seem a bit that way, because the gods realised that killing the dragons without a backup plan would destroy Tyria. Mind you, one thing they could do, even if they won't fight directly, is _help set up a backup plan._)

[Zaklex.6308]

Isn't a bit presumptuous of us to believe that the ED would destroy all of Tyria, and same for the Six for that matter...after all, the last time the ED's arose didn't the Dwarves somehow figure out how to pacify the ED's back to sleep without being wiped out...that story is still out there.

 

For those that think the story has holes in it, look at it from Balthazar's point of view and no any other races, especially the humans. There was the first Exodus into the mists, he was fine with that, and yes they were aware of the ED's but at this time they were still asleep. Then Abaddon is killed, Kormir takes over and the ED's start to wake up with Primordus first, now the story begins to change. Fast forward to present and we get Scarlet/Caera awakening Mordremoth(well. technically not awakening, just giving him that jolt of coffee to spring out of bed instead of slowly rising). Within the past 250 years the ED's have all managed to awaken to some degree or another, this has also awakened Balthazar's war spirit and when it came time for the Six to leave the Mists he rebels, causing the other 5 to strip him of his powers and imprison him, this is where Rytlock's journey to the Mists comes in and we have our PoF story.

 

Was that so hard to follow, as for why the Six(Five) would want to leave the Mists, just why would you want to stay around and watch your charges get destroyed by something you have no chance of defeating, even though it happened once before(well, not actually defeated but put back to sleep). Also, what were the Forgotten working on that backfired so badly against them?

[draxynnic.3719]

> @Zaklex.6308 said:

> Isn't a bit presumptuous of us to believe that the ED would destroy all of Tyria, and same for the Six for that matter...after all, the last time the ED's arose didn't the Dwarves somehow figure out how to pacify the ED's back to sleep without being wiped out...that story is still out there.

 

It was actually the Seers that figured it out, not the dwarfs, in creating the original Bloodstone. Problem is that the Seers are dead and apparently nobody else is currently able to do it, so we need to find our own solution to the problem.

 

[TheUndefined.1720]

Hands down, this is my biggest complaint with honestly GW2 entirely - expansion / base / otherwise.

 

The writing is absolutely terrible to me. Don't get me wrong, the acting and dialogue are good, but the plot / beats of the story are so atrocious. The complete dismissal of humans was such a spit in the face to GW1 fans from the beginning. I honestly still get fired up when it comes to how Ascalon, the city our GW1 characters sacrificed so much for, Prince Rurik died for, was completely handed over to the enemy.

 

Yeah, I don't care if it originally belonged to Charr. The Charr were an evil warmongering race that wanted to enslave everyone else and conquer everybody. They deserved to lose and be pushed back. Not to mention the Charr won, but the humans are now basically on the brink of total defeat by Centaurs?! ...Centaurs? Are you serious? Sure, there's the white mantle, and they're very interesting on their own.. but Centaurs?

 

Beyond that, the entire GW2 story progression has been so utterly disrespectful to GW1. I still remember when I read the plaque in grenth's temple, it gave me chills. Sure, the deities were gone, but their presence were still very much apart of Tyria. There were avatars. There were still battles between them. They were still relevant. Now, PoF has completely and utterly dismantled the entire premise of the human's backstory. That's what made the humans interesting, their hope. Charr were the industrious deity-less race, not the humans. The humans were the counterpart, through all odds they made it out through their faith and hope. Now they have what? To become Charr?

 

Not only that, but you don't have ANY new heroes in the expansions. We're still having our old tired heroes tagging along, which are so extremely poorly written aside from Canach. Honestly, when I think Guild Wars I think of Gwen, Thackery, Nika, Master Togo, Kormir, Koss, and many others - you get my point. The story was evolving, fresh, and fun.

 

When I used to buy an expansion to Guild Wars, the new characters, the new story, the new jobs, the new lands, the new heroes, all of that was what got my interest. Now it's a weak monster of the week to set up another living story for another dragon without any respect to the story that's come before it. Onto the them pesky dragons, the real threat - I mean where do you go from there? You've got the threat dialed to 11 - most other stories only go to 10, but GW2 it goes to 11 (/SpinalTap). That's fine, but what comes after 11? Nothing, it's like a powercreep in villains. The twist with Balthazar was totally wasted. Now we're back to straight up doomsday devices from every tired rehash superhero movie - the dragons. We couldn't cleanse Balth of corruption? Reseal him in the mists and roll him out for a later story only to be double crossed in the end? Have Balth give up his power willingly and live among the humans and find redemption? Nope - _spoiler_ - b/c that's apparently all we're good at.

 

Really huge misstep. I don't know who the main story director is, but I think they should replay Guild Wars 1 and remember what it was like to enjoy a well written story, not this convoluted fanfiction.

[Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324]

> @TheUndefined.1720 said:

> The writing is absolutely terrible to me. Don't get me wrong, the acting and dialogue are good, but the plot / beats of the story are so atrocious. The complete dismissal of humans was such a spit in the face to GW1 fans from the beginning. I honestly still get fired up when it comes to how Ascalon, the city our GW1 characters sacrificed so much for, Prince Rurik died for, was completely handed over to the enemy.

 

The Kingdom of Ascalon was doomed even in GW1, Prince Rurik went as far as to leave his home with Ascalonian refugees and there were ruins everywhere. The outcome of this war was predictable - and it's not even a complete victory with the ghosts still haunting the place.

 

> Yeah, I don't care if it originally belonged to Charr. The Charr were an evil warmongering race that wanted to enslave everyone else and conquer everybody. They deserved to lose and be pushed back. Not to mention the Charr won, but the humans are now basically on the brink of total defeat by Centaurs?! ...Centaurs? Are you serious? Sure, there's the white mantle, and they're very interesting on their own.. but Centaurs?

 

But they won. And it was all there in GW1.

 

> Beyond that, the entire GW2 story progression has been so utterly disrespectful to GW1. I still remember when I read the plaque in grenth's temple, it gave me chills. Sure, the deities were gone, but their presence were still very much apart of Tyria. There were avatars. There were still battles between them. They were still relevant. Now, PoF has completely and utterly dismantled the entire premise of the human's backstory. That's what made the humans interesting, their hope. Charr were the industrious deity-less race, not the humans. The humans were the counterpart, through all odds they made it out through their faith and hope. Now they have what? To become Charr?

 

Well, now that their gods are gone in Tyria, their hope will change shape. We're not stuck in that endless loop of humans praying uselessly for help. They have the tools to fuel their hope differently, and certainly not in the Charr way. After all, gods' servants are still operating within their realms. Most human cultures are still deeply embedded with gods teaching anyway.

 

> Not only that, but you don't have ANY new heroes in the expansions. We're still having our old tired heroes tagging along, which are so extremely poorly written aside from Canach. Honestly, when I think Guild Wars I think of Gwen, Thackery, Nika, Master Togo, Kormir, Koss, and many others - you get my point. The story was evolving, fresh, and fun.

 

Nika was involved in two story steps in Factions. Her contribution to the plot was less important than, say, Kito and Zalambur in _Path of Fire_. Making the front of the box isn't making a character interesting.

 

> Reseal him in the mists and roll him out for a later story only to be double crossed in the end? Have Balth give up his power willingly and live among the humans and find redemption?

 

Answering the first question: that would have been a boring development.

Answering the second question: Balthazar giving up a fight? No.

 

 

[TheUndefined.1720]

@GorgaanPeaudesang.8324

 

Thanks for the response! I still completely disagree with your counterpoints and regardless, the story still feels like a silly internet fanfiction compared to the story from GW1.

 

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate there are those that enjoy this story and don't find the failings I and others do. However, they are failings, imo. Prince Rurik still believed in his people, he sought to save them, not give up. Balthazar had many options for a more fulfilling end than the completely elementary one we were given and the fact we still end up with the exact same predicament we ended up with at the end of HoT still stands.

 

Honestly, I could keep going, but I feel my original post still stands firm with my opinion and I know most of these sorts of interactions just sort of ends up in a mindless back and forth.

 

I respect your view. If GW1 didn't exist, I honestly wouldn't have half of the issues... even a quarter of the issues that I have with GW2. Still, GW1 does exist, it established the lore that this game has completely disregarded in favor of what it has now.

 

GW2 is probably one of the funnest MMO's out there. The gameplay and creative takes on past MMO-tropes is so incredibly creative. However, the story is the greatest smear on this game and honestly I'd be happy to hear if they got a new story writer to take over.

[Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324]

You're right, Rurik believed in his people. He wanted his fellow Ascalonians to rebuild their strength far away from the Charrs. This implies that the kingdom was a lost cause when Adelbern banished him.

 

> Balthazar had many options for a more fulfilling end than the completely elementary one we were given

 

Balthazar seems to be so committed when he's engaged on a conflict (according to some writings he played a game of Nui for seven consecutive days with an old man that challenged him) that I believe him behaving like he did was right. He was denied a fight with the dragons, probably seeing this as some sort of dishonor. He did not hesitate or stumble once, even when Tyria was the price of the game (it's fitting his own scriptures).

 

I'm not pretending to know who Balthazar was in person (in fact nobody here can pretend this), but the "all or nothing" behavior we have witnessed in this expansion seems right with what the writings claimed.