Return of the Gods? (PoF spoilers)

[Inc.4753]

> @Vladish.3940 said:

> So according to Kormir, having five super powered beings go against one fairly powerful being is more collateral damage, than sending an army or mortals after him that will be certain to cause lives;

 

Given the location and Balthazar's goals, it would be the Five vs. Balthazar vs. an Elder Dragon. Their concern wasn't as much saving as many lives as possible as much as it was leaving the continent viable for life.

 

> There is one thing I am wondering though in regards to "gods" and why they are afraid of dragons. It may be that "gods" have limited capacity for storing magic, and of they were to take out the dragons, they themselves would not be able to contained all that released energy. That would prevent them from ever being able to work as such supplements.

 

A viable concern, perhaps we will get some clues in future releases.

 

On a related note, following your line of thought: did the Elder Dragons always have this form and are they by nature linked to domains, or have their specialization and the amounts of magic formed them to the massive things we know them to be? If the latter, the Five might need to sacrifice their current form to be able to contain the amounts of magic the Elder Dragons release upon death.

 

 

 

 

[Vladish.3940]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @Vladish.3940 said:

> > There is one thing I am wondering though in regards to "gods" and why they are afraid of dragons. It may be that "gods" have limited capacity for storing magic, and of they were to take out the dragons, they themselves would not be able to contained all that released energy. That would prevent them from ever being able to work as such supplements.

>

> This is what I am thinking is the case. The Six may beat the dragons, but can they replace them? Can they take their magic? I'm not so sure.

>

> If the Six Gods had an effectively limitless capacity for holding magic - like the Elder Dragons seem to have given Kralkatorrik's actions at the end of PoF - then why didn't they just divide Abaddon's magic among each other when he rebelled? Why couldn't Grenth take all of Dhuum's magic and kill him?

>

> It makes the most sense if the gods are incapable of housing unlimited magic, even if the magic they do house is supremely great and unique compared to Tyrians. The Elder Dragons in their normal state may not be greater than a god, but in their empowered state (having taken in the magic of fallen Elder Dragons or the Bloodstones), they would be. The question is if Elder Dragons can absorb a god's magic (given Forgotten magic immunity, Foefire tricks, and Balthazar managing to wade through an army of destroyers and branded without being eaten, I'd say no - the magic Kralkatorrik ate was from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag ultimately, though Balthazar retained some divinity it's hard to say whether that was also absorbed or if it crumbled when Balthazar "broke up" the way Abaddon did).

>

> And speaking of Balthazar's death - that's another major difference between Elder Dragon and God. The gods, when killed, literally break apart, releasing all magic within them at once be it a gods' magic or not, while the Elder Dragons just slump dead like corpses and radiate magic. This indicates that the two are fundamentally of different building blocks and thus would naturally have different limitations and abilities to them.

 

I completely agree. The Abaddon case was bothering me ever since I found out it was the other gods that depowered Balthazaar. I want to know what happened to his energy. Were they able to absorb it themselves effectively becoming the Five, and if so, why they haven't done it to Abaddon in the first place?

Do we have a new god of war and fire now forming the Six again?

Does becoming a god (since like Kormir showed us, any mortal can become one), changes you physically on a fundamental level? Because if so, it could be that Balthazaar had his divinity taken from him, and was essentially giant walking empty battery, thus being able to fill himself with different kinds of magic, while no longer being actual "god". His body being physically changed by the original ascension could also explain why he would react to death like gods do, without being one himself.

 

Argh! So many questions, so little info, so much butchered lore! lol

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @Inc.4753 said:

> On a related note, following your line of thought: did the Elder Dragons always have this form and are they by nature linked to domains, or have their specialization and the amounts of magic formed them to the massive things we know them to be? If the latter, the Five might need to sacrifice their current form to be able to contain the amounts of magic the Elder Dragons release upon death.

 

In GW1, Kralkatorrik looks like flesh and blood. Much like Glint, Vlast, and Aurene. Over the skies of Vabbi, he's basically a gargantuan hammerhead Shatterer - completely hollow, no teeth but crystal instead. In GW1, Primordus' eye was clearly flesh and blood and he seemed to have the same foe the rest of his body but it was covered in stone, and in GW2 it's drastically increased in size but a lot more rock and lava formed. Mordremoth also had a flesh and blood reptilian body that was covered in moss and his corruption of vines.

 

So I would say that as they gain more magic, they become more elemental themselves, and it's possible this process is a back-and-forth thing as they lose their magic during hibernation. Zhaitan and Mordremoth were "in the process" while Primordus and Kralkatorrik had changed in body.

 

Of course one could just say they were both drastically retconed - but even in PoF, Rytlock talks about the spear Glint gave him to be used to pierce Kralkatorrik's heart, yet being hollow he has no such heart anymore.

[Pax.3548]

> @"Ildrid Ildhjertet.2489" said:

> Very interesting. There's also the bit in the final battle where Balthazar curses Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru and Kormir. He fails to curse Lyssa and whoever took his place. I have only played that instance once, so not sure if the amount of cursing can change, but he did it twice, and he didn't curse Lyssa at all. Nor his replacement.

 

Interesting... When balthazar returned to tyria he used Lyssa's mirror to disguise himself. Many said he probably stole the mirror... but what if he didn't? what if Lyssa willingly gave her mirror to him. Balthazar and Lyssa reminds me a little of Ares and Aphrodite in the greek myths, they were lovers, maybe Balth and Lyssa had a thing together, and perphaps his death may affect Lyssa somehow, promting her to return to tyria at some point.

[Pax.3548]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @Inc.4753 said:

> > On a related note, following your line of thought: did the Elder Dragons always have this form and are they by nature linked to domains, or have their specialization and the amounts of magic formed them to the massive things we know them to be? If the latter, the Five might need to sacrifice their current form to be able to contain the amounts of magic the Elder Dragons release upon death.

>

> In GW1, Kralkatorrik looks like flesh and blood. Much like Glint, Vlast, and Aurene. Over the skies of Vabbi, he's basically a gargantuan hammerhead Shatterer - completely hollow, no teeth but crystal instead. In GW1, Primordus' eye was clearly flesh and blood and he seemed to have the same foe the rest of his body but it was covered in stone, and in GW2 it's drastically increased in size but a lot more rock and lava formed. Mordremoth also had a flesh and blood reptilian body that was covered in moss and his corruption of vines.

>

> So I would say that as they gain more magic, they become more elemental themselves, and it's possible this process is a back-and-forth thing as they lose their magic during hibernation. Zhaitan and Mordremoth were "in the process" while Primordus and Kralkatorrik had changed in body.

>

> Of course one could just say they were both drastically retconed - but even in PoF, Rytlock talks about the spear Glint gave him to be used to pierce Kralkatorrik's heart, yet being hollow he has no such heart anymore.

 

Well... we haven't seen kralk's full body yet, so maybe there is a heart still, or the heart is different from the one we usually thing (like a chaos energy core).

[Vladish.3940]

> @Pax.3548 said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @Inc.4753 said:

> > > On a related note, following your line of thought: did the Elder Dragons always have this form and are they by nature linked to domains, or have their specialization and the amounts of magic formed them to the massive things we know them to be? If the latter, the Five might need to sacrifice their current form to be able to contain the amounts of magic the Elder Dragons release upon death.

> >

> > In GW1, Kralkatorrik looks like flesh and blood. Much like Glint, Vlast, and Aurene. Over the skies of Vabbi, he's basically a gargantuan hammerhead Shatterer - completely hollow, no teeth but crystal instead. In GW1, Primordus' eye was clearly flesh and blood and he seemed to have the same foe the rest of his body but it was covered in stone, and in GW2 it's drastically increased in size but a lot more rock and lava formed. Mordremoth also had a flesh and blood reptilian body that was covered in moss and his corruption of vines.

> >

> > So I would say that as they gain more magic, they become more elemental themselves, and it's possible this process is a back-and-forth thing as they lose their magic during hibernation. Zhaitan and Mordremoth were "in the process" while Primordus and Kralkatorrik had changed in body.

> >

> > Of course one could just say they were both drastically retconed - but even in PoF, Rytlock talks about the spear Glint gave him to be used to pierce Kralkatorrik's heart, yet being hollow he has no such heart anymore.

>

> Well... we haven't seen kralk's full body yet, so maybe there is a heart still, or the heart is different from the one we usually thing (like a chaos energy core).

 

I must say that is a pretty interesting theory and it feels like you're onto something Konig. I also agree with Pax in terms of heart itself. Besides, they are dragons. We assume their hearts are located where they are because of the stereotype comparison of a lizard and a dragon in other media/games. Their heart doesn't have to be located in their chest, or the heart isn't heart and just a loose term used for the source of their power.

 

I mean, Mordremorth kept turning more and more into plant matter, becoming increasingly part of the world itself. I couldn't even begin to guess where his "chest" could be or his heart/source of power. In that regard Kralkatorrik looking hollow may not be equivalent of heartless (literally).

 

> @Pax.3548 said:

> > @"Ildrid Ildhjertet.2489" said:

> > Very interesting. There's also the bit in the final battle where Balthazar curses Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru and Kormir. He fails to curse Lyssa and whoever took his place. I have only played that instance once, so not sure if the amount of cursing can change, but he did it twice, and he didn't curse Lyssa at all. Nor his replacement.

>

> Interesting... When balthazar returned to tyria he used Lyssa's mirror to disguise himself. Many said he probably stole the mirror... but what if he didn't? what if Lyssa willingly gave her mirror to him. Balthazar and Lyssa reminds me a little of Ares and Aphrodite in the greek myths, they were lovers, maybe Balth and Lyssa had a thing together, and perphaps his death may affect Lyssa somehow, promting her to return to tyria at some point.

 

That is an interesting notion, and definitely a valid plausible plot development Anet could use. Now I am interested to see if they go down that route. I mean aside from the gods interacting with the renegade ones, we don't know much about their internal politics.

[Vladish.3940]

> @Inc.4753 said:

> > @Vladish.3940 said:

> > So according to Kormir, having five super powered beings go against one fairly powerful being is more collateral damage, than sending an army or mortals after him that will be certain to cause lives;

>

> Given the location and Balthazar's goals, it would be the Five vs. Balthazar vs. an Elder Dragon. Their concern wasn't as much saving as many lives as possible as much as it was leaving the continent viable for life.

>

> > There is one thing I am wondering though in regards to "gods" and why they are afraid of dragons. It may be that "gods" have limited capacity for storing magic, and of they were to take out the dragons, they themselves would not be able to contained all that released energy. That would prevent them from ever being able to work as such supplements.

>

> A viable concern, perhaps we will get some clues in future releases.

>

> On a related note, following your line of thought: did the Elder Dragons always have this form and are they by nature linked to domains, or have their specialization and the amounts of magic formed them to the massive things we know them to be? If the latter, the Five might need to sacrifice their current form to be able to contain the amounts of magic the Elder Dragons release upon death.

>

>

>

>

 

I would agree with gods not wanting go against Balthazaar and Kralkatorrik, but they could have intercepted the former god before the Crystal Dragon got directly involved. Honestly these gods feel more like sadists to me than anything. Imprisoning someone for eternity is far more cruel than outright killing them.

 

That's an interesting concept about the loss of form based on amounts of magic consumed, regardless of who you are. Works well with what Konig mentioned little later as well. That theory is definitely something I will be looking at as the GW2 stories develop.

[silvermember.8941]

> @Vladish.3940 said:

> > @Inc.4753 said:

> > > @Vladish.3940 said:

> > > So according to Kormir, having five super powered beings go against one fairly powerful being is more collateral damage, than sending an army or mortals after him that will be certain to cause lives;

> >

> > Given the location and Balthazar's goals, it would be the Five vs. Balthazar vs. an Elder Dragon. Their concern wasn't as much saving as many lives as possible as much as it was leaving the continent viable for life.

> >

> > > There is one thing I am wondering though in regards to "gods" and why they are afraid of dragons. It may be that "gods" have limited capacity for storing magic, and of they were to take out the dragons, they themselves would not be able to contained all that released energy. That would prevent them from ever being able to work as such supplements.

> >

> > A viable concern, perhaps we will get some clues in future releases.

> >

> > On a related note, following your line of thought: did the Elder Dragons always have this form and are they by nature linked to domains, or have their specialization and the amounts of magic formed them to the massive things we know them to be? If the latter, the Five might need to sacrifice their current form to be able to contain the amounts of magic the Elder Dragons release upon death.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> I would agree with gods not wanting go against Balthazaar and Kralkatorrik, but they could have intercepted the former god before the Crystal Dragon got directly involved. Honestly these gods feel more like sadists to me than anything. Imprisoning someone for eternity is far more cruel than outright killing them.

>

> That's an interesting concept about the loss of form based on amounts of magic consumed, regardless of who you are. Works well with what Konig mentioned little later as well. That theory is definitely something I will be looking at as the GW2 stories develop.

 

I thought kormir said they would have gone after Balthazar if they knew it was him as Laz before he gained that power?

[Kenagin.3529]

> @silvermember.8941 said:

> > @Vladish.3940 said:

> > > @Inc.4753 said:

> > > > @Vladish.3940 said:

> > > > So according to Kormir, having five super powered beings go against one fairly powerful being is more collateral damage, than sending an army or mortals after him that will be certain to cause lives;

> > >

> > > Given the location and Balthazar's goals, it would be the Five vs. Balthazar vs. an Elder Dragon. Their concern wasn't as much saving as many lives as possible as much as it was leaving the continent viable for life.

> > >

> > > > There is one thing I am wondering though in regards to "gods" and why they are afraid of dragons. It may be that "gods" have limited capacity for storing magic, and of they were to take out the dragons, they themselves would not be able to contained all that released energy. That would prevent them from ever being able to work as such supplements.

> > >

> > > A viable concern, perhaps we will get some clues in future releases.

> > >

> > > On a related note, following your line of thought: did the Elder Dragons always have this form and are they by nature linked to domains, or have their specialization and the amounts of magic formed them to the massive things we know them to be? If the latter, the Five might need to sacrifice their current form to be able to contain the amounts of magic the Elder Dragons release upon death.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I would agree with gods not wanting go against Balthazaar and Kralkatorrik, but they could have intercepted the former god before the Crystal Dragon got directly involved. Honestly these gods feel more like sadists to me than anything. Imprisoning someone for eternity is far more cruel than outright killing them.

> >

> > That's an interesting concept about the loss of form based on amounts of magic consumed, regardless of who you are. Works well with what Konig mentioned little later as well. That theory is definitely something I will be looking at as the GW2 stories develop.

>

> I thought kormir said they would have gone after Balthazar if they knew it was him as Laz before he gained that power?

 

Yes, that's also what I remember from that mission. Something like "if we found out earlier we could/would have taken action".

[TriEdge.5149]

the gods actin like pompus pricks like always :/

[Vladish.3940]

> @silvermember.8941 said:

> > @Vladish.3940 said:

> > > @Inc.4753 said:

> > > > @Vladish.3940 said:

> > > > So according to Kormir, having five super powered beings go against one fairly powerful being is more collateral damage, than sending an army or mortals after him that will be certain to cause lives;

> > >

> > > Given the location and Balthazar's goals, it would be the Five vs. Balthazar vs. an Elder Dragon. Their concern wasn't as much saving as many lives as possible as much as it was leaving the continent viable for life.

> > >

> > > > There is one thing I am wondering though in regards to "gods" and why they are afraid of dragons. It may be that "gods" have limited capacity for storing magic, and of they were to take out the dragons, they themselves would not be able to contained all that released energy. That would prevent them from ever being able to work as such supplements.

> > >

> > > A viable concern, perhaps we will get some clues in future releases.

> > >

> > > On a related note, following your line of thought: did the Elder Dragons always have this form and are they by nature linked to domains, or have their specialization and the amounts of magic formed them to the massive things we know them to be? If the latter, the Five might need to sacrifice their current form to be able to contain the amounts of magic the Elder Dragons release upon death.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I would agree with gods not wanting go against Balthazaar and Kralkatorrik, but they could have intercepted the former god before the Crystal Dragon got directly involved. Honestly these gods feel more like sadists to me than anything. Imprisoning someone for eternity is far more cruel than outright killing them.

> >

> > That's an interesting concept about the loss of form based on amounts of magic consumed, regardless of who you are. Works well with what Konig mentioned little later as well. That theory is definitely something I will be looking at as the GW2 stories develop.

>

> I thought kormir said they would have gone after Balthazar if they knew it was him as Laz before he gained that power?

 

Yes, and it feels to me (personally) like an excuse to be lazy. If Bloodstone/primal energies made Balthazaar that much more powerful than gods themselves, and we just killed him... why we wasting time worshiping pretender gods? So far we have been killing left and right everything that THEY are afraid of.

 

That goes back to one of my earlier theories about gods leaving not because they are afraid of Balthazaar/Dragons, or because they have more important things to do, but because they are afraid of us and us realizing that they aren't gods at all, just powerful mortals whom at this point are actually weaker than us.

 

This is exactly one of those small points that makes me feel like the entire story is filled with lazy writing and doesn't have coherency.

[JayMack.8295]

Remember that when we killed Balth, there were two vessels nearby to absorb the metric ton of magic he released. Had the Gods got involved, could they have even absorbed that magic? If they had, what would happen? Do they even have a choice in absorbing it? It didn't look like Aurene was WILLINGLY absorbing it, it just looked like the magic was drawn to her, so if Gods are similar vessels, then what happens if they get given too much magic or magic that isn't necessarily their 'domain'? Is that possible? Had Balth succeeded and killed any that fought him, we now have a metric ton of other God magic free that could go anywhere, so where would it go? Would it completely turn Tyria off balance? There's loads of questions here we don't necessarily have answers to.

 

I don't think the Gods are lying to us, necessarily. They just don't KNOW what would happen if they got involved, but are using past events as examples NOT to. I don't think any of them have the power of foresight or this whole Balth event would never have happened in the first place. There are a lot of variables involved in fighting Balth on Tyria's surface God to God. Obviously killing him worked out, 'cause it's a story and good generally prevails - super powerful Elder Dragon aside.

 

From Kormir's perspective, she believes Tyria's doom is inevitable. It could just be that, to her - the best choice in that entire situation was to let the races handle it and HOPE they win. At least then Tyria lasts a little longer compared to the alternatives.

 

I'm not saying the Gods are perfect - the fact they chained Balth up in a place where a random Charr could stumble upon him and free him was exceptionally stupid, but I don't think they completely don't care about humanity.

 

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @JayMack.8295 said:

> I don't think they completely don't care about humanity.

 

I dunno they all kinda wholesale said "screw this we're out" and the one that stayed tried to kill us all for reason of pride and personal glory. I mean he literally killed us. We got better, but still.

 

I get why they're backing off but they never had any real hope in us, except for Kormir (the one the fanbase tends to mock the most) but even she's like "I'm sorry about ya'll being boned but not much I can do about it... ya'll gotta fix this. Peace!"

 

They all seem rather ineffectual. For a bunch of gods to basically wholesale say "we don't know how to make this right so we're backing off and leaving it to you" while their diary entries basically confirm having written off Tyria wholesale... I dunno what to call that except misplaced faith.

 

The Forgotten, Glint, Vlast, Aurene, the Exalted... these guys care. These guys are trying to make things right and their meticulous work is slowly paying off. As my GW2 human I'm legit more worried about Aurene then any of the human pantheon. I'm still messed up about Vlast.

 

The gods? Nah. No love lost. Except that judge guy for letting me come back to life. He's cool. He doesn't make any kind of sense given the gods have left and there is no eternal reward to be gained from them, but he let me be alive again so I'll let it slide.

[JayMack.8295]

> @CETheLucid.3964 said:

> > @JayMack.8295 said:

> > I don't think they completely don't care about humanity.

>

> I dunno they all kinda wholesale said "screw this we're out" and the one that stayed tried to kill us all for reason of pride and personal glory. I mean he literally killed us. We got better, but still.

>

> I get why they're backing off but they never had any real hope in us, except for Kormir (the one the fanbase tends to mock the most) but even she's like "I'm sorry about ya'll being boned but not much I can do about it... ya'll gotta fix this. Peace!"

>

> They all seem rather ineffectual. For a bunch of gods to basically wholesale say "we don't know how to make this right so we're backing off and leaving it to you" while their diary entries basically confirm having written off Tyria wholesale... I dunno what to call that except misplaced faith.

>

> The Forgotten, Glint, Vlast, Aurene, the Exalted... these guys care. These guys are trying to make things right and their meticulous work is slowly paying off. As my GW2 human I'm legit more worried about Aurene then any of the human pantheon. I'm still messed up about Vlast.

>

> The gods? Nah. No love lost. Except that judge guy for letting me come back to life. He's cool. He doesn't make any kind of sense given the gods have left and there is no eternal reward to be gained from them, but he let me be alive again so I'll let it slide.

 

Well that depends - if the Garden of the Gods is to be believed that's been linked already, they're apparently trying to find a new 'world' for their 'faithful'. Obviously a lot of that is up to interpretation and what you'll take from it but if them being 'needed' elsewhere means 'we're creating or finding a new world for our humans to live without the dangers Tyria presented' then they DO care.

 

On the other hand, if it's 'peace out, Humans - we've got new followers now in a place that won't self destruct' then of course they don't

[Walhalla.5473]

> @Vladish.3940 said:

 

> That is an interesting notion, and definitely a valid plausible plot development Anet could use. Now I am interested to see if they go down that route. I mean aside from the gods interacting with the renegade ones, we don't know much about their internal politics.

 

I think they are going this route. That Lyssa gave Balthazar her mirror.

There was something odd when Balthazar cursed the other Gods before he dies. He cursed them all, all but Lyssa. So something happened between him and Lyssa otherwise he would have cursed her as well.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @Pax.3548 said:

> > @"Ildrid Ildhjertet.2489" said:

> > Very interesting. There's also the bit in the final battle where Balthazar curses Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru and Kormir. He fails to curse Lyssa and whoever took his place. I have only played that instance once, so not sure if the amount of cursing can change, but he did it twice, and he didn't curse Lyssa at all. Nor his replacement.

>

> Interesting... When balthazar returned to tyria he used Lyssa's mirror to disguise himself. Many said he probably stole the mirror... but what if he didn't? what if Lyssa willingly gave her mirror to him. Balthazar and Lyssa reminds me a little of Ares and Aphrodite in the greek myths, they were lovers, maybe Balth and Lyssa had a thing together, and perphaps his death may affect Lyssa somehow, promting her to return to tyria at some point.

 

It is an interesting concept. And a parallel to how Abaddon actively assaulted Lyssa's temples and priesthood rather than the other gods' (the only time he actively assaulted the other gods' places of worship was at the Plaza of the Five Gods in Gandara via Varesh. Lyssa even had the role of spokesperson (via her Muse) rather than Dwayna, the leader, or Melandru, the eldest. Was always odd.

 

That had always prompted the idea that Abaddon and Lyssa had a thing in the past, and Abaddon saw the war as Lyssa's betrayal and wanted more personal revenge against her (the overlapping of illusions and phantasms seen in the temple of Abaddon furthered this theory).

 

Not sure I'd say Balthazar and Lyssa had a thing, but I could see Lyssa having aided Balthazar after being stripped of power. After all, Balthazar being in effectively a demigod state would not result in cataclysmic aftermath as him being in full god mode would, depending on the outcome.

 

I'd have to replay the final fight to be sure he doesn't curse Lyssa too though. I felt that he did.

 

> @Pax.3548 said:

> Well... we haven't seen kralk's full body yet, so maybe there is a heart still, or the heart is different from the one we usually thing (like a chaos energy core).

 

We saw his head and neck in the mission, and his wings in the cinematic. The wings were broken pieces, like Kralkatorrik's, while the neck was fully hollow with purple air/lightning within it. Even what was solid was broken into chunks rather than connected (unlike the Shatterer).

 

While the idea of an energy core (I wouldn't say chaos but sure) is interesting, there's the fact Glint described his weakness as going through ribs, and Edge of Destiny makes it clear Kralkatorrik bleeds. Heck, even the spear - _Dragonsblood_ Spear - is said to be made out of Kralkatorrik's blood. Yet he's hollow and looks to be made out of crystal and stone and air.

 

That would mean he either had a flesh and blood form and lost it, or he goes back and forth inbetween.

 

> @Vladish.3940 said:

> I must say that is a pretty interesting theory and it feels like you're onto something Konig. I also agree with Pax in terms of heart itself. Besides, they are dragons. We assume their hearts are located where they are because of the stereotype comparison of a lizard and a dragon in other media/games. Their heart doesn't have to be located in their chest, or the heart isn't heart and just a loose term used for the source of their power.

>

> I mean, Mordremorth kept turning more and more into plant matter, becoming increasingly part of the world itself. I couldn't even begin to guess where his "chest" could be or his heart/source of power. In that regard Kralkatorrik looking hollow may not be equivalent of heartless (literally).

 

Where we presume Kralkatorrik's heart to be is because Glint told us where it is - between two ribs along its chest. Basically typical lizard heart location.

[Pax.3548]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @Pax.3548 said:

> > > @"Ildrid Ildhjertet.2489" said:

> > > Very interesting. There's also the bit in the final battle where Balthazar curses Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru and Kormir. He fails to curse Lyssa and whoever took his place. I have only played that instance once, so not sure if the amount of cursing can change, but he did it twice, and he didn't curse Lyssa at all. Nor his replacement.

> >

> > Interesting... When balthazar returned to tyria he used Lyssa's mirror to disguise himself. Many said he probably stole the mirror... but what if he didn't? what if Lyssa willingly gave her mirror to him. Balthazar and Lyssa reminds me a little of Ares and Aphrodite in the greek myths, they were lovers, maybe Balth and Lyssa had a thing together, and perphaps his death may affect Lyssa somehow, promting her to return to tyria at some point.

>

> It is an interesting concept. And a parallel to how Abaddon actively assaulted Lyssa's temples and priesthood rather than the other gods' (the only time he actively assaulted the other gods' places of worship was at the Plaza of the Five Gods in Gandara via Varesh. Lyssa even had the role of spokesperson (via her Muse) rather than Dwayna, the leader, or Melandru, the eldest. Was always odd.

>

> That had always prompted the idea that Abaddon and Lyssa had a thing in the past, and Abaddon saw the war as Lyssa's betrayal and wanted more personal revenge against her (the overlapping of illusions and phantasms seen in the temple of Abaddon furthered this theory).

>

> Not sure I'd say Balthazar and Lyssa had a thing, but I could see Lyssa having aided Balthazar after being stripped of power. After all, Balthazar being in effectively a demigod state would not result in cataclysmic aftermath as him being in full god mode would, depending on the outcome.

>

> I'd have to replay the final fight to be sure he doesn't curse Lyssa too though. I felt that he did.

>

> > @Pax.3548 said:

> > Well... we haven't seen kralk's full body yet, so maybe there is a heart still, or the heart is different from the one we usually thing (like a chaos energy core).

>

> We saw his head and neck in the mission, and his wings in the cinematic. The wings were broken pieces, like Kralkatorrik's, while the neck was fully hollow with purple air/lightning within it. Even what was solid was broken into chunks rather than connected (unlike the Shatterer).

>

> While the idea of an energy core (I wouldn't say chaos but sure) is interesting, there's the fact Glint described his weakness as going through ribs, and Edge of Destiny makes it clear Kralkatorrik bleeds. Heck, even the spear - _Dragonsblood_ Spear - is said to be made out of Kralkatorrik's blood. Yet he's hollow and looks to be made out of crystal and stone and air.

>

> That would mean he either had a flesh and blood form and lost it, or he goes back and forth inbetween.

>

> > @Vladish.3940 said:

> > I must say that is a pretty interesting theory and it feels like you're onto something Konig. I also agree with Pax in terms of heart itself. Besides, they are dragons. We assume their hearts are located where they are because of the stereotype comparison of a lizard and a dragon in other media/games. Their heart doesn't have to be located in their chest, or the heart isn't heart and just a loose term used for the source of their power.

> >

> > I mean, Mordremorth kept turning more and more into plant matter, becoming increasingly part of the world itself. I couldn't even begin to guess where his "chest" could be or his heart/source of power. In that regard Kralkatorrik looking hollow may not be equivalent of heartless (literally).

>

> Where we presume Kralkatorrik's heart to be is because Glint told us where it is - between two ribs along its chest. Basically typical lizard heart location.

 

I think kralk's body changes when he's awakening, remembering the tail back in gw1 you can see it without much of the magic surrounding, but I think that's just his dormant form, once he's awakening he takes this form similar to the shatterer, and his blood and flesh "ignites" as well, I think that bloodspear was made when kralkatorrik was asleep yes? that could explain it, whenever he awakens, his body goes through these changes (like a machine powering up). Or what you said in one of your post may be right too: as elder dragons consume magic, their bodies goes through metamorphosis, resembling giant elementals dragons.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

If it were "as he woke up" then why would he leave crystallized blood in the Dragonbrand (Edge of Destiny closes with Caithe picking up such in the Dragonbrand), or in the Crystal Desert from the previous dragonrise (e.g., when he was awake - which is what the blood Glint had collected to make the spear and 'tree' that was then used to create the yokes Snaff used to get into Kralkatorrik's mind). Further, he had to have still held a mostly flesh and blood body when he fought Destiny's Edge, otherwise we hit the same problem as before, so the difference we see is either a blatant retcon, or he had to have changed forms in the ten years since.

 

For that matter, I'm kind of disappointed there's no yoke on Kralkatorrik but he does seem to be even larger than what Edge of Destiny described (which was a "mere" 1,000 foot tall dragon).

[Codes.6870]

It's possible that Snaff is still stuck inside Kralkatorrik's mind.

 

Kralkatorrik is like his new Golem, but his mind and soul is still fighting inside that Elder Dragon. So there's like a battle between them to take full control.

 

Maybe he's still there and he helped us at one point in the story ;)

[Codes.6870]

Lyssa is probably the real villain who is deceiving Logan Thackeray; the way Balthazar did to Kasmeer.

 

Lyssa disguised as Queen Jennah in order to take advantage of Logan could of been her plan to disband Destiny's Edge , for them to lose Snaff so they can all play the blame game.

 

Who know's what crazy things Logan will do for his Queen.

[CaptainVanguard.4925]

As fun as seeing the gods return would be, no, it wont happen.

 

A-nets writing this expansion was making the gods a useless macguffin to depend on which honestly was some of the poorest writing in the story. Kormir literally telling you the gods cant fight because they'd destroy Tyria was a copout and a half. Considering Balthazar and Kralkatorrik already devastated Tyria between each other that makes her entire point null and meaningless.

 

The only way to rectify this is honestly to make the gods into the new antagonists of GW2. Its very clear that with the way they behaved and the fact Kormir said they're abbandoning humans and the other races they clearly dont *care* at all about the affairs of mortals.

 

They speak of a higher duty, which leaves a mystery to be solved, but they are definately not the good guys or our friends.

 

Most likley, most logically, they are going to be antagonists.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

 

> In GW1, Kralkatorrik looks like flesh and blood. Much like Glint, Vlast, and Aurene. Over the skies of Vabbi, he's basically a gargantuan hammerhead Shatterer - completely hollow, no teeth but crystal instead.

 

In Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik turned into a sandstorm when he was in danger of taking any real damage, and that even got brought back up by Rytlock at some point during the story (although I can't remember where off the top of my head). The way Kralkatorrik's neck just trails off into nothing, my thinking was that he was in the process of changing for his own safety before the beam locked him into an in-between state, or that he _had_ changed but that the beam was able to revert enough back into a solid to damage.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

The main issues with that idea is the ending cinematic, where we can clearly see Kralkatorrik's wings which are all shattered pieces like The Shatterer's. We also never really see the base of the neck (I suppose you might if the clouds are not loading properly for you) during the fight so I'm not sure the lack of a body should be taken as canon lore or just Anet not building such because it's just so huge of a model.

[Fluffball.8307]

Does it paint pre-bananapants Abbadon in a different light when we learn you need to share magic rather than horde it?

[ThatOddOne.4387]

I'm not sure whether it's correct with what people are saying when they say the Gods are afraid of the Dragons.

I interpreted it as Kormir saying that the Gods COULD fight the Dragons, possibly win (Because the Gods can act in concert and the Dragons cannot), but the collateral damage caused in the process would be staggering, and that's not even factoring the instability caused by dead dragons on the world itself.

Like, Gods vs Dragons would be the equivalent of the Gods basically dropping atomic weapons (Massively powerful spells) at the Dragons to kill them. Which causes collateral, the way the races deal with Dragons is a kind of death by 10,000 cuts business. That's why Gods vs Dragon/s would cause more damage than races of Tyria vs Dragon/s.