The problem with PoF/LS4 maps..

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> It was a sound idea to keep things in one place since the major criticism of ls3 was the jumping around from one end of the world was a bit strange and the narrative suffered. However, given how poor this episode narrative was, that no longer seems to apply.

>

> You also have to remember that Elona in gw1 wasnt really the most interesting place. Kourna for one had little to make it iconic and was very bland. That has stifled a lot of their creativity. Compare that to say Draconis Mons where they had full freedom and made something very unique and fun (if u like vertical map). As a result, we ended up with possibly the weakest ls map yet with Kourna.

>

> I dont think every map needs sweeping metas though. Sandswept worked perfectly as it was and managed to make stories out of the smaller chains it had. Istan and Kourna were fairly uninteresting though and rather than be well thought like say Silverwastes, they are mindless zergfests which fail to do much beyond slow everyones fps and make everything unviewable anyway. Too many big metas and we end up with HoT problem and long term we will have too many to reasonably be able to complete with a split population.

 

I think it's actually better that not every map has sweeping metas. We really should only get those occasionally with new maps, otherwise it will become overwhelming, start to divide the player base up too much and lead to a lot of analysis paralysis. I think this was actually a mistake with HoT's map design. There was honestly too much going on among those 4 maps. There was not enough content that could be explored in a relaxed way.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > @"melodyca.8921" said:

>

> > **Crystal Desert** appealed to one type of fan and those fans seem to think they are the ones that matter. People need to learn that not everybody enjoys those sort of maps and there are many types of people who play this game and there has to be a reasonable compromise.

>

> See what i did there? (evil grin).

> I'm fine with you guys getting your flat maps, as long as guys like me (even if minority) get a bone thrown at us too. But recent times you guys are being catered to 100% while fans of true vertifcal map design are being left in the wind each kitten release starting core PoF...

>

>

 

I don't have a problem with verticallity, I love Verdant Brink.

But TD is a nightmare, minimap is useless and getting to one side of the map to find a hidden hole, get in the hole to get to the other side of the map is annoying.

And Black Citadel is the nightmare of the core game! Kitten charrs!

[melodyca.8921]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > > @"melodyca.8921" said:

> >

> > > **Crystal Desert** appealed to one type of fan and those fans seem to think they are the ones that matter. People need to learn that not everybody enjoys those sort of maps and there are many types of people who play this game and there has to be a reasonable compromise.

> >

> > See what i did there? (evil grin).

> > I'm fine with you guys getting your flat maps, as long as guys like me (even if minority) get a bone thrown at us too. But recent times you guys are being catered to 100% while fans of true vertifcal map design are being left in the wind each kitten release starting core PoF...

> >

> >

>

> I don't have a problem with verticallity, I love Verdant Brink.

> But TD is a nightmare, minimap is useless and getting to one side of the map to find a hidden hole, get in the hole to get to the other side of the map is annoying.

> And Black Citadel is the nightmare of the core game! Kitten charrs!

 

That is pretty much how I feel. Verdant Brink I can tolerate. I despise Tangled Depths. Its tedious and dealing with the relentless mobs gets old really quick. Tangled Depth is a living example of listening too much to the loud vocal minority of the players. If they want to do something like VB again I won't complain but I will scream if we get something like TD again

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

> @"melodyca.8921" said:

>

> Tangled Depths appealed to one type of fan and those fans seem to think they are the ones that matter. People need to learn that not everybody enjoys those sort of maps and there are many types of people who play this game and there has to be a reasonable compromise

 

I think the dozens of maps that are not like Tangled Depths and were in the game years before HoT was released would constitute that compromise, don't you think?

[Klowdy.3126]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"Vavume.8065" said:

> > I don't understand arenanets direction in making beautiful looking maps but with nothing to do in them, this constant cycle of throw away maps does not do it for me, I loved HoT maps with their interesting map wide meta's, everything since with the exception of Istan has felt like filler. Arenanet need to give us maps with better meta events, so that those maps can live and breath, because the maps they have been making for some time now are basically dead on their feet out of the gate.

>

> Fully agreed. That's been the problem with all LS maps in season 3 and so far season 4, they feel **soooo** "throwaway". They're the utmost designed-for-temporary-consumption theme park rides of GW2. They're forgettable through and through. You can really feel how much they need to rush creating these :angry:

>

> It's just so meh. I'd rather have the content devs work on new WvW maps to rotate in ,work 3-4 releases on slowly permanently transforming a single giant LS map, or - even better - do the in-map-transformations of living story season 1 and 2 again, where we had an actual living story. As in, it went on even if I am not there.

 

My Hope's for this season, after playing the main PoF story and seeing the maps, was a few huge maps, not coming with every episode, but making each last for a few episodes, be it back to back, or coming back at a certain point, while adding to each map every time we go back. We don't need a new map with every episode, and I would actually prefer to not get one every time. If we got nine episodes, and three maps, that would be great. Farming three currencies as opposed to nine is a much better setup.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> The quality of a well written story and dialogue is much more important than introducing yet another vertical map (those are boring, because they are created to keep people artificially busy without providing anything of interest, really) and new movement mechanic no one needs (because you can't use them outside of the map, plus it is simply becoming too much; this is an RPG and not a platformer for kids' and teens' Xbox). And in that regard (i.e. the quality of writing), PoF and _especially_ LWS4 are shining way, _way_ above an awfully written LWS3.

 

Interesting, until your conclusion sentence I was with you, but I would have drawn the opposite conclusion. That the lack of story quality implies that at least we should have seen good map design, but honestly especially the Isles are incredibly pretty. The maps are throwaway, and I'd prefer that to change, but I can't see that happen because it's a management decision.

 

However, in the context delivering a pretty map is a damn cool achievement, just compare the trainwrecks that are Ember Bay, Lake Doric or ... that last map no one goes to and I can't even remember, from LS3. **And** they added a new mount, so yeah, if you can't do a story or a good, permanent map, at least add some mechanics and make it as pretty as possible.

 

> @"Klowdy.3126" said:

> My Hope's for this season, after playing the main PoF story and seeing the maps, was a few huge maps, not coming with every episode, but making each last for a few episodes, be it back to back, or coming back at a certain point, while adding to each map every time we go back.

 

Honestly the Domain feels like it was supposed to - or is? - house 2+ episodes. It's incredibly unfinished, and empty. Plus many areas don't get fully explored and even the side-walls feel weird. As if something is still missing.

[Perisemiotics.4579]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > > @"Etria.3642" said:

> > > I will take sandswept isles over tangled depths ANY day.

> >

> > I'll take Tangled Depths over enitre PoF **any** day. With it's depth and complexity that map had me coming back and having fun for a looooooong time. Infact i'm still coming back to it, not only for materials but because i like it.

>

> I would rather have a pine tree growing sideways inside my kittenhole than set a foot again in Tangled Depths.

> Tangled Depths is the prime tutorial on how to not design a map.

 

...this is why HoT and PoF were designed in such contrasting fashion - it was a conscious decision by ANet. The same thing goes for the design choices of S4 as opposed to those of S3; the game now offers a lot more variety for a lot more people... there's no better or worse, right or wrong... just a much, much more complete and enjoyable game overall.

These debates about which map is great or sucks, for whatever reason, are always (or almost always) subjective at best.

[otto.5684]

> @"Etria.3642" said:

> I will take sandswept isles over tangled depths ANY day.

 

Me too. But AB and VB are tiers better than sand swept isles and every PoF map combined.

[Zephic.3075]

As far as Tangled Depths goes, they really need to make a different kind of minimap for multi-layered locations like it. Our current minimap is insufficient and you can't tell if something is really above or below you until you're standing right on top of it. While I like the location's atmosphere, it is not one that I spend much time in. People had similar complaints about Draconis Mons, but I actually like Draconis Mons more because it is fairly linear path up the volcano with hidden secrets all around.

 

I'd take the Chak Gerant over the terrible meta that we currently have in Kourna any day. Bosses need actual threatening mechanics to players who zerg them and not stand there and tank with absurd HP, but otherwise have no mechanics to speak of. Right now, with the number of players on Kourna, you can literally afk auto-attack the golem and its Inquest pilot, completely ignoring the mechanics of the fight because of zerg tactics.

 

I would love if Anet reintegrates old mechanics like the vine whip from Draconis Mons or the glider techniques from Bloodstone Fen as alternate means of travel for new maps. It would help with mastery integration. It feels bad to have spent so much time leveling masteries for just one or two maps only. Right now the only mastery that really carried over between LS3-only maps was the Thermal Propulsion and I suspect that was only because it came out in Episode 2 instead of much later. I get that some people who only have PoF might be mad because they won't be able to use them, but that's why its an alternative method of movement. It is a waste for us to not be able to vine whip around anywhere else other than our guild halls. We developed gliding techniques... to only use in Bloodstone Fen? Why?

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Zephic.3075" said:

> As far as Tangled Depths goes, they really need to make a different kind of minimap for multi-layered locations like it. Our current minimap is insufficient and you can't tell if something is really above or below you until you're standing right on top of it. While I like the location's atmosphere, it is not one that I spend much time in. People had similar complaints about Draconis Mons, but I actually like Draconis Mons more because it is fairly linear path up the volcano with hidden secrets all around.

>

> I'd take the Chak Gerant over the terrible meta that we currently have in Kourna any day. Bosses need actual threatening mechanics to players who zerg them and not stand there and tank with absurd HP, but otherwise have no mechanics to speak of. Right now, with the number of players on Kourna, you can literally afk auto-attack the golem and its Inquest pilot, completely ignoring the mechanics of the fight because of zerg tactics.

>

> I would love if Anet reintegrates old mechanics like the vine whip from Draconis Mons or the glider techniques from Bloodstone Fen as alternate means of travel for new maps. It would help with mastery integration. It feels bad to have spent so much time leveling masteries for just one or two maps only. Right now the only mastery that really carried over between LS3-only maps was the Thermal Propulsion and I suspect that was only because it came out in Episode 2 instead of much later. I get that some people who only have PoF might be mad because they won't be able to use them, but that's why its an alternative method of movement. It is a waste for us to not be able to vine whip around anywhere else other than our guild halls. We developed gliding techniques... to only use in Bloodstone Fen? Why?

 

The issue isn't that the map doesn't work. It's more that the map is of limited use because objectives are intentionally hidden with no pathways leading to them indicated on the map whatsoever. The designers of this map wanted you to have to explore without using the map in order to discover its many secrets - as well as for general map completion objectives. This creates the perception that the map doesn't work as it's more or less impossible to tell whether an objective is hidden in this way as opposed to being exactly where the map suggests it is along a clearly marked path.

 

If they had put every objective along a marked pathway, the map would be perfectly adequate. You can tell whether and objective is above or below your current position, exactly which layer it may be found on, and you can follow any pathway marked on the map as long as you pay attention to the layer transition markers (ramps, stairs, up/down arrows). They just wanted you to forget the map and explore. And it turns out this just isn't something most players were interested in doing. Too frustrating when all you want to do is get through map completion and get out of there!