Necromancer/Reaper traits/skills healing power scaling

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I can't believe the misinformation here. Seriously you ppl need to go back to the game, **re-test** some shit now (like healing values), then speak.

Though there are also some interesting things i heard here that i will re-test myself. My full set of armor happens to be....legendary :3 So i can test and tweak to my heart's content ;]

 

As for low healing scalings - it's a trade off. The point it to provide meaningful (albeit not OP healing) to necro at 0 cost. So he can focus on damage. You could say it's a bit of an answer to warrior - they just slot healing signet, adrenal health and couldn't care less about healing unless facing something really nasty.

 

Let's say signet of vampirism (heal i use now, very powerful when traited) vs blood fiend. Signet heals **more** (unlike somoene's belief here). traited with bit of healing power can go to 600 healing passive when struck. If you're facing a human opponent or a bunch of mobs (frequent attacks) it'll be 1800 passive healing over blood fiend's 926. So how does blood fiend close that gap?

Simple - it doesn't require you to be hit! Nor stand in place (blood well). Nor use a loooong cast (consume conditions) that is just too prone to interruptions. You just focus on hitting stuff and positioning yourself outside of enemy aoe, or doing a dodgeroll, while heals "come" on their own.

 

As some mentioned, that does not mean there are no **powerful** scaling heals.

 

Signet of locust - give it bit of healing power and it's **10k** + heal (not 7k) when used on 5 targets.

Life siphon - crazy good scaling too.

Signet of vampirism - traited has a good (not amazing) passive scaling. But traited makes it's passive work when shrouded, even if you just blew the active. This is a very powerful heal for healing in-shroud (way above unholy sanctuary), especially for core necro (reaper has blighter's boon, core doesn't).

Well of Blood - yeah great scaling...and then there's a passive one from ress trait in Blood magic.

 

One thing I do object is how trashy vampiric presence healing is, considering it's been slapped with 0.5s icd, so the speed of healing **is** gated here...

Another improvement I'd like to see is a skill that hits 10 opponents, not for damage per se, but for life steal and damage mitigation, since necro is generally designed to go into the fray vs multiple mobs and not be afraid of enemy monster zergs.

 

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> I can't believe the misinformation here. Seriously you ppl need to go back to the game, **re-test** some kitten now (like healing values), then speak.

> Though there are also some interesting things i heard here that i will re-test myself. My full set of armor happens to be....legendary :3 So i can test and tweak to my heart's content ;]

>

> As for low healing scalings - it's a trade off. The point it to provide meaningful (albeit not OP healing) to necro at 0 cost. So he can focus on damage. You could say it's a bit of an answer to warrior - they just slot healing signet, adrenal health and couldn't care less about healing unless facing something really nasty.

>

> Let's say signet of vampirism (heal i use now, very powerful when traited) vs blood fiend. Signet heals **more** (unlike somoene's belief here). traited with bit of healing power can go to 600 healing passive when struck. If you're facing a human opponent or a bunch of mobs (frequent attacks) it'll be 1800 passive healing over blood fiend's 926. So how does blood fiend close that gap?

> Simple - it doesn't require you to be hit! Nor stand in place (blood well). Nor use a loooong cast (consume conditions) that is just too prone to interruptions. You just focus on hitting stuff and positioning yourself outside of enemy aoe, or doing a dodgeroll, while heals "come" on their own.

>

> As some mentioned, that does not mean there are no **powerful** scaling heals.

>

> Signet of locust - give it bit of healing power and it's **10k** + heal (not 7k) when used on 5 targets.

> Life siphon - crazy good scaling too.

> Signet of vampirism - traited has a good (not amazing) passive scaling. But traited makes it's passive work when shrouded, even if you just blew the active. This is a very powerful heal for healing in-shroud (way above unholy sanctuary), especially for core necro (reaper has blighter's boon, core doesn't).

> Well of Blood - yeah great scaling...and then there's a passive one from ress trait in Blood magic.

>

> One thing I do object is how trashy vampiric presence healing is, considering it's been slapped with 0.5s icd, so the speed of healing **is** gated here...

> Another improvement I'd like to see is a skill that hits 10 opponents, not for damage per se, but for life steal and damage mitigation, since necro is generally designed to go into the fray vs multiple mobs and not be afraid of enemy monster zergs.

>

 

If you says that there was misinformation address it with quotes and correct it, otherwise just saying it it's pointless.

I didn't mention signet of vampirism, nor signet of locust nor life siphon which as you said are really good, especially the last 2 with scaling. Maybe my post was misleading because it started it by a general consideration, but the intent was to referr it to traits I specified later. Keep in mind I'm not saying that "healing necro" is bad, what I'm saying that there places where it can be further improved.

So I'll ask to improve further the discussion. Do you think that there is nothing to work on (scaling wise and base value wise) on the following traits?

 

**Reaper trailine**

Augury of death(life siphon healing ) :125+ 0.02(healing power)

Soul Eater: 200 + 0.05(healing power)

Bligther's Boon:165 +0.03*(healing power)

 

**Blood Magic**

Vampiric: Life Siphon Healing 31 +(0.006)(healing power) and Minion Heal 50 +(0.02)(healing power)

Vampiric Presence: Life Siphon Healing 32+ (0.0333)(healing power) and Life Siphon Healing While In Shroud: 62 (0.0666)(healing power)

Vampiric Rituals: Life siphon healing 212+ (0.03)*(healing power)

 

**Death Magic**

Unholy Sanctuary: healing 130 +(0.12)*(healing power)

 

Also what do you think about my suggestion of making reaper shouts like meditation heal from monk's focus of guardian by increasing the life siphon value and scaling on shouts(see augury of death)?I suggested also that dagger 2 (life siphon) should heal allies too since it has a really good scaling. And I'll add that signet of locust should probably do the same. What do you think about this?

Thank you for feedback =)

[Brujeria.7536]

For the scaling issue... some of them need a buff in base healing or modifiers. We have to make a distinction here between traits that do work conceptually, with the necromancer class as a whole, and traits which dont.

 

For example:

Unholy Sanctuary: Double the base value and the scaling. Its debatable if that trait is good, or fitting for death magic, but conceptual it works, its reliable, it trades resources (lifeforce) for healing.

 

Blighters Boon: The healing here is ok number wise, the problem is: necromancers dont cause a lot of boons on themself. Back in the day when this trait was introduced you where healed for ANY boon you get, even from allies. At that time, necromancer really was a very sustainable and valued group fighter, for a few weeks at least. The release of revenant with Glint was the reason they nerfed it. The trait is now in a state that it really only works with the spite trait line. You just lack the boon application to make the heal matter, also you cant really buff the numbers because the trait does work ok - with another traitline. Its a very bad concept if a grandmaster trait, that should define a build and playstyle by itself, needs the dedication of a traitline, to actually work. The consens here is: you cant buff this trait much number wise to make it work with other traitlines, or the small number of boons you can cause without heavy investments in runes and sigils. You can pick sigils that grant you boons, but in the end, youre better of with sigils that heal you straight away or siphon life straight away.

 

Signet of the Locust : Its actually decent healing, it really is. What kills it are 2 factors : 1. the passive is bad and not usefull in combat at all. 2. necromancer needs so many utility slots for defense and stunbreaks. The lack of defense, mobility and stability from trait and weapon options really limits the skill. If they make this skill a stunbreak with a usefull passive it would be one of the best skills a necromancer has, even with the current scaling.

 

Vampiric X + Augury of death:

 

The problem lies in the necromancer class. Heal does only help if it actually does heal you, the heals here are bound to hitting stuff. Because you can hit 5 targets at once, the heal is rather lowish. The necromancer class can not hold up the offense, getting bursted, forcing you into shroud or stunlocking you completly stops the healing for the most part. Its not so bad for reaper in shroud, because it actually can cause a fair number of hits to trigger the traits, but for the core nec it is. Out of shroud you are an easy target - no blocks or reliable defense, no stability, a easy target to burst and stunlock. Bursting and Stunlocking are the biggest weakness (apart from range) for the necromancer class, in group play, this problem gets increased tenfold: your shroud cant scale as well as other defensive mechanics, your sustain heals do nothing because you dont have the time or ability to hit something, yet all these traits are based around hitting many targets. Also, the amounts of hits a necromancer can do is somewhat limited, multi target skills are on a long cooldown, rapid hits are there, but only really on axe. I imagine everyone can see the problem here.

 

Soul Eater:

Greatsword is a bad weapon, it has some tricks to it, sure, but overall its not a weapon you want to be in for a long time. The trait itself is perfectly fine, it may need a better scaling. Greatsword however, is not. They should change this trait to "when wielding a greatsword or while in shroud"

 

Signet of Vampirism: yes the healing is okayish, but again, if you need to kite, or create distance, or getting bursted its useless. Against condi classes its useless, it just does not heal from condi ticks, smart opponents will stock using weak hits and focus more on the bursts, overall this skill can't be tuned well. It needs a reliable heal over time, even when not getting hit.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > OK back to the discussion then ... I honestly don't think there is much wrong with how healing power scales with the currect sustain options available. Even with some limited investment in Heal power in the build I posted, I'm getting very reasonable levels of passive healing ... and I've already seen ways I can make that build better for sustain with no impact on the damage. Toss the other damage mitigation and avoidance measures in and I don't see a real concern driving game changes. I'm not even sure such a thing is that high on the list of people that play Main Necro as an improvement.

> >

> > I do think there is more opportunity to explore 'corruption' as a theme in an espec; trading HP or LF around for various bonuses and effects; healing power could play a part in something like that but with the current mix of traits and other sustaining abilities, I can't even convince myself they are in any poor condition to improve them.

> >

> > The only link I can see really making an impact on how people think and play necros is if healing power could have some positive effect on LF regen (or LF depletion) rates. Other than that, it's simply tweaking numbers; very minimal effect overall.

>

> Well healing power scaling and base healing values are not obviously the most importants problem of necro, but they contribute to limit his capability to have any other build except a dps one or condi/support scourge. Infact when you try to get outside those two roles, where necro has already in some way low performance, you can't build anything significant to the point of running it instead a normal dps build. And this is just because the healing sources are not that much and have a long cooldown so need better base value and scaling, another part of the problem is that skills like dagger 2 and signet of locust that can heal a lot are not healing allies too ( and just with this change you could ramp up the healing a lot)

 

I have to legitimately disagree with that. What do you mean "can't build anything significant instead of a DPS build"? It is absolutely true that you can get good value from incorporating healing skills into your builds for more sustain while maintaining reasonable DPS. If you need more sustain than what you can get from another passive heal or two, you can get them, or supplement with defensive stats.

 

The reason the HP scaling are fine where they are is because only the worst players would ever need so much healing to sustain themselves that such an increase would be useful ... I believe that having bettee (re. higher) scaling on Healing power demonstrates a significant indifference to the vast majority of average players that would view this as dumbing down the game and diminishing or trivializing their experience. In otherwords, the scalings and access to the defensive stats have to cater the performance of the largest population of players ... the average ones ... not the worst ones.

 

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> Let's say signet of vampirism (heal i use now, very powerful when traited) vs blood fiend. Signet heals **more** (unlike somoene's belief here). traited with bit of healing power can go to 600 healing passive when struck. If you're facing a human opponent or a bunch of mobs (frequent attacks) it'll be 1800 passive healing over blood fiend's 926. So how does blood fiend close that gap?

 

This is no longer true .. Signet of Vampirism has a CD of 1 second (a recent change IIRC) ... so yes, it can heal for 600, but only once every second, regardless of the number of hits you take. That's still rather good considering the passive nature of it, but The Fiend is still better in terms of absolute healing, as it should be because of the risk that it's killed. Of course, if you want to take a GM Spite Signet trait to simply up the benefit of your signets, that's an option too, and that gets you closer to the Fiend heal, but at that point, you are giving up quite a bit of damage to do so; it's highly player dependent to decide how to spend that Spite GM trait.

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

The real problem why healing modifiers are so freaking bad on necromancer:

The revive %

Transfusion 2% per pulse

Life from death 10%

 

In order to make necro a good healer you need to cut those down. Remove the revive% and make the scaling much better.

So the from transfusion goes up higher (maybe 1,8-2k)

 

Life from death should have waaaay better scalings. On core and reaper it's not good. And on scourge you need to know, that you will need that heal 6 seconds before you actually need it

 

Not to mention, that it would be great, if necro could give fury to allies.

[Funky.4861]

Perhaps a bit of clarity wouldn't go amiss.

 

As i understand it, necro doesn't use healing builds outside of funky raid/fractal/wvw builds. The issue i see here is that in group content, you are performing a function. Why should i take a healing necro in a raid (or anywhere, for that matter) when i can take a healing ele or druid instead, both of which provide more boons and effects (spotter for example) and still outheal necro? Imo, what hinders necro support is that it's outclassed by druid and ele.

 

Given that anet will not allow us to do anything above mediocre damage, perhaps a healing-support build should be looked at which is at least as good as druid/ele, which in turn would allow those players to re-sepc for (their significantly higher) damage. Vampiric presence was massively buffed (by thousands of percent) and it's still looked-down upon. I believe that if life siphons were made competitive in terms of their healing output and affected allies within say, 600 radius, necro might just get a look-in. This doesn't solve the problem of lack of boons or unique buffs.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> The real problem why healing modifiers are so freaking bad on necromancer:

> The revive %

> Transfusion 2% per pulse

> Life from death 10%

>

> In order to make necro a good healer you need to cut those down. Remove the revive% and make the scaling much better.

> So the from transfusion goes up higher (maybe 1,8-2k)

>

> Life from death should have waaaay better scalings. On core and reaper it's not good. And on scourge you need to know, that you will need that heal 6 seconds before you actually need it

>

> Not to mention, that it would be great, if necro could give fury to allies.

 

This is a class-related problem. It's really hard for me to connect necromancer with healing, especially other people that aren't themselves. I believe that's why we have significant entries into ideas like barriers and life stealing. I just don't see alot of room in the concept of necro as being a good 'healer' as we think of how that works with everyone else.

 

I think if we are to be more realistic, Necro support to teams is going to be related to the down state or damage absorbing effects.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > The real problem why healing modifiers are so freaking bad on necromancer:

> > The revive %

> > Transfusion 2% per pulse

> > Life from death 10%

> >

> > In order to make necro a good healer you need to cut those down. Remove the revive% and make the scaling much better.

> > So the from transfusion goes up higher (maybe 1,8-2k)

> >

> > Life from death should have waaaay better scalings. On core and reaper it's not good. And on scourge you need to know, that you will need that heal 6 seconds before you actually need it

> >

> > Not to mention, that it would be great, if necro could give fury to allies.

>

> This is a class-related problem. It's really hard for me to connect necromancer with healing, especially other people that aren't themselves. I believe that's why we have significant entries into ideas like barriers and life stealing. I just don't see alot of room in the concept of necro as being a good 'healer' as we think of how that works with everyone else.

>

> I think if we are to be more realistic, Necro support to teams is going to be related to the down state or damage absorbing effects.

 

But exactly here it gets completely useless.

Let's take raids as example. You don't want them to go down so you have to rezz them because they can't do dmg while downed. So you take a better healer, so they won't go down.

 

The support necro offers is way too niche to be really good

[Anchoku.8142]

Personally, I am not excited about trading stuff for a steeper heal scaler. How many "healers" does this game need?

 

Profession-specific support utilities like those in Blood Magic, Sand Shroud, and a few others scattered around would be my choice to focus on. For example, if Death Magic was reworked so that lower-lower-lower all gave some sort of group support and the selfish defense was all jammed into the middle row, Necro could have a more meaningful array of support options and not have to rely solely on barriers and Blood Magic's less potent heals.

 

A support build does not have to be all about healing. Niche utilities can be just as important, if not more so, like Spotter was/is. Any profession can heal to some extent. Special skills can be very useful.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > The real problem why healing modifiers are so freaking bad on necromancer:

> > > The revive %

> > > Transfusion 2% per pulse

> > > Life from death 10%

> > >

> > > In order to make necro a good healer you need to cut those down. Remove the revive% and make the scaling much better.

> > > So the from transfusion goes up higher (maybe 1,8-2k)

> > >

> > > Life from death should have waaaay better scalings. On core and reaper it's not good. And on scourge you need to know, that you will need that heal 6 seconds before you actually need it

> > >

> > > Not to mention, that it would be great, if necro could give fury to allies.

> >

> > This is a class-related problem. It's really hard for me to connect necromancer with healing, especially other people that aren't themselves. I believe that's why we have significant entries into ideas like barriers and life stealing. I just don't see alot of room in the concept of necro as being a good 'healer' as we think of how that works with everyone else.

> >

> > I think if we are to be more realistic, Necro support to teams is going to be related to the down state or damage absorbing effects.

>

> But exactly here it gets completely useless.

> Let's take raids as example. You don't want them to go down so you have to rezz them because they can't do dmg while downed. So you take a better healer, so they won't go down.

>

> The support necro offers is way too niche to be really good

 

I don't think that's how the concept would work. If anything, a class that specializes in supporting the team for players downed state broadens the comps that can be successful in raids, not narrow it. Unfortunately, necro doesn't go far enough there. Of course everyone wants the speed run team that is perfect, so only the minimum of support is necessary while maximizing DPS ... but the game can't be ONLY designed to support that strategy and it's not.