Jumping Puzzles state/discussion, and an idea to refresh and reimplement them as renewable content

[wars.3479]

Recently, I’ve been quite saddened by the state of JPs. With gliders and mounts, TP to Friend items and all the other bypasses, all the jumping puzzles left from between and before the expansions possess barely any incentive to complete. Currently, there are literally only two reasons to do a jump puzzle: You enjoy them, or you want the achievement (daily/one-off).

 

Jumping puzzles literally are a massive freakin’ pile of content in an almost unused state. It’s a gold mine Arenanet could well make use of for repeatable, renewable, fun and challenging content to a lesser or greater extent. However, due to the excess bypasses, the content IN MY OPINION is often almost obsolete. Therefore, I would like to propose some ideas to refresh this content, and let it holds its own.

 

Firstly, I’ll establish the _**‘basis’**_ of the idea, if you will.

-As with fractals, jumping puzzles could have their own currency, or token system. With a unique vendor, with unique rewards. Prestigious items, long term goals.

-Next, JPs could receive their own entire dailies section. Rewards would scale in accordance to the _‘level of difficulty’_ and _‘time required’_ for completion. As a random example, Spekks Lab=1Token. Not So Secret=20Token. Since there are a massive amount of jumping puzzles, the vendor prices would of course scale accordingly.

-Lastly, establish a milestone system on most if not all JPs. Think the LA JP chests, or the Drydock Scratch milestone system.

 

Now, I have two ideas on how to fix the mount, glider and bypass issues that exist in my eyes.

The first one, and probably not so popular one: Properly disable mounts, gliders and TP to Friend on all core Tyrian JPs, as mentioned above. To add to that, disable mounts on all HoT and LW3 JPs. However this would negatively affect the player base when they mount around populated areas, thinking of LA in particular, when they suddenly find themselves unable to mount or glide.

 

The second implementation is probably better: Retain the system we currently have. Bypasses, mounts and gliders and the lot. However, IF you want to receive your tokens and chances at rare rewards, TP to Friend, gliders and mounts are disabled accordingly. One clever way to do this would be have a start button at the beginning of each JP, which enters you into _‘JP Challenger mode'_ or some such, there-on disabling all the relevant features. This way, players who are just after the achievement, mastery point and standard daily completionist can still bypass (if left as is), but those who want to work toward the tokens and rare chances at prestigious rewards will need to run the puzzle as it was designed. Furthermore, to ensure parties don’t instant mesmer portal skip, implement the milestone system I mentioned earlier, so those who have difficulties with such content can still participate, but will need to wait for a Mesmer port to each milestone, therefore ensuring they spend the same amount of time as everyone else would on the JP (but be able to relax instead).

 

Finally, all prestige rewards should be tradable, so they aren’t walled off for those who would have difficulties with JPs or not much time, and they can obtain them via alternate means.

 

By no means do I mean to encroach on anyone elses ideals. This is my opinion. Feel free to discuss.

 

-JP Enthusiast and traditionalist.

 

Edit: Thanks for your feedback all. I feel like the overall ideas progressed positively.

[Danikat.8537]

I love jumping puzzles too, but I disagree with pretty much every part of this.

 

Firstly if you enjoy doing them why do you need a better reward as an incentive? It's a game, the entire point is to have fun playing it. Getting items which help you do other content or which are nice to have is one way to do that, but if there's content you already find fun then that should be a reward in it's own right. I do jumping puzzles almost every time I'm nearby, just because I like doing them. I can't remember every getting anything better than a rare item from the chest, but that's irrelevant to me. I can remember a lot of fun I've had doing them both on my own and with other people.

 

Secondly I have to assume you've never done a jumping puzzle when it was the daily achievement, because you'll see a lot of people there, using every available method to get to the end. Some will take a mesmer portal (and at least on EU you'll have a hard time finding a copy of the map without at least 1 mesmer for the daily puzzle), some will use gliding and/or mounts and quite a few will do it the 'old fashioned way' even if they have the faster options available, because they like doing it that way. (This is also the 'thriving community' you talked about. While doing the Hidden Garden today I was part of a group of people helping call out Keeper locations and portals, or using mesmer portals to get people in, guiding each other through the puzzle, reviving people who fell and just chatting about the game. In my experience that's pretty standard for a daily achievement puzzle and it's part of why I always pick those dailies.)

 

Thirdly I disagree completely with removing Teleport to Friends and other shortcuts, especially if you're going to add a lot more rewards to jumping puzzles. What you find fun isn't what everyone finds fun, or even something everyone is capable of doing. Try telling an older person (no really, GW2 has plenty of retired players) playing from Australia with a ping in the hundreds on a good day that they shouldn't bypass the "challenge" of pressing jump and waiting to see if they've made it or fallen to their death then starting over 50+ times.

 

Which brings me to my most important point. The way I see it the fact that jumping puzzles are completely optional is a great thing, _especially for those of us who like doing them_. If they're going to become something everyone is expected to complete then they also need to be something everyone can reasonably be expected to complete. Which means you can forget about ever seeing another puzzle like Not So Secret or the Chalice of Tears, or even the one in LA. They will all have to be brought down to a standard where everyone can complete them.

 

I'd only support adding new unique rewards to jumping puzzles if they were tradable, so people who can't/won't do puzzles can just buy the ones they want from people who like doing them. Which might actually act as even more of an incentive for people to do it, because then they could do it once to get their own reward and again to make gold.

[kharmin.7683]

How does the manner in which other people enjoy content affect your ability to enjoy the same? There is no competitive aspect to jumping puzzles. If you want to do them the way in which they are intended, then other players using other methods should in no way interfere with you.

[wars.3479]

Even if you enjoy the content already, what's wrong better rewards? With adding a system that supports what's already in the MMO, it pulls more people back to fun content that is largely unused post first clearance, aside from a small niche population. Whether this ever went through or not doesn't make a difference to me liking JP's by the way, thanks for not jumping to conclusions.

 

Perhaps I've been a tad overly disappointed with the ease of access mounts and gliders present to half of them, and tradable rewards seem like the correct choice after reading your comments since yes, there are folk who would have trouble. But do you all enjoy the JP just as much after you've ran it traditionally for 20 minutes, to see someone springer jump up the wall in about 10 seconds?

 

TP To Friend I believe should still be disabled with JPs, but that's just my opinion in the end. I'm well aware there are many lesser-able who may have difficulties with such, but it's not very difficult to press F on a mesmer portal. But an absolute skip button for an 'optional challenge?'

[artemis.6781]

Your "best idea to ever grace the world of Tyria" is equal to Coke changing it's classic formula.

 

@"Danikat.8537" , excellent response.

[wars.3479]

> @"artemis.6781" said:

> Your "best idea to ever grace the world of Tyria" is equal to Coke changing it's classic formula.

>

> @"Danikat.8537" , excellent response.

 

Just my opinion. I'm sure plenty of people like Pepsi.

 

 

[ReaverKane.7598]

I think JPs are fine as they are.

I wouldn't say no to some sort of prestige collection done using JPs as it's basis (we kinda have it already in the Wintersday tree though), but i'm 100% against this.

 

First, it would remove one of the coolest thing about our community, having people like the PINK guild (shout out) that always have several members with pink com tags sitting at daily JPs to give people portals! It's always a great display of the best within the GW2 community!

 

Second, not everyone enjoys Jumping puzzles, and hiding anything of high relevance behind JPs has never yielded any good results, especially when you're also removing methods for people that don't enjoy them to skip them. That's just alienating and frustrating a huge part of the player-base!

 

Third, we have too many currencies already.

 

Fourth, what i think is that they need to go back to adding JPs in living world maps... Which they haven't since PoF launched.

[wars.3479]

All the JPs from PoF and onward have been 'Mount JPs,' and all of the JPs pre PoF have been glider JPs. Perhaps I just miss new traditional content.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"wars.3479" said:

> Suppose I'll just remove the OP, since I seem to not be entitled to an opinion.

 

You are entitled to an opinion, but other people are entitled to disagree with it, which is what the forum discussion is all about. This is not an echo chamber, you must accept that not everyone will agree with you, and embrace a diverse discussion around anything you post.

 

I agree with Danikat, very well written post! :+1:

[Danikat.8537]

> @"wars.3479" said:

> Suppose I'll just remove the OP, since I seem to not be entitled to an opinion.

 

That's a bit of a jump. You proposed an idea, other people raised perceived issues and objections, and suggested changes/alternatives based on our own opinions. That's the point to tweak the original idea and/or counter the comments with your own opinions, not shut down all discussion. Otherwise there's almost no chance of getting to a workable and/or popular idea which might actually be used.

 

Like you already did with your previous post:

 

> @"wars.3479" said:

> Even if you enjoy the content already, what's wrong better rewards? With adding a system that supports what's already in the MMO, it pulls more people back to fun content that is largely unused post first clearance, aside from a small niche population. Whether this ever went through or not doesn't make a difference to me liking JP's by the way, thanks for not jumping to conclusions.

>

> Perhaps I've been a tad overly disappointed with the ease of access mounts and gliders present to half of them, and tradable rewards seem like the correct choice after reading your comments since yes, there are folk who would have trouble. But do you all enjoy the JP just as much after you've ran it traditionally for 20 minutes, to see someone springer jump up the wall in about 10 seconds?

>

> TP To Friend I believe should still be disabled with JPs, but that's just my opinion in the end. I'm well aware there are many lesser-able who may have difficulties with such, but it's not very difficult to press F on a mesmer portal. But an absolute skip button for an 'optional challenge?'

 

So now we've got to the point of agreeing that JPs could have unique rewards added as long as they're tradable or there is a way to get them without having to be able to do all the puzzles yourself. We could then move on to discussing how this would work best:

* Are you thinking of one item per puzzle or a collection which requires doing multiple puzzles?

* What kind of reward would it be?

* What do you think would be effective at attracting people who don't already choose to repeat jumping puzzles to do them again?

* How do you deal with people rushing through them all the first week and then still never going back?

 

You say mounts and gliders are an issue because they provide too much ease of access. But wouldn't it be better to work that into the puzzles, like they have with the newer puzzles where using a glider or mounts is actually the intended way to do it? Jumping puzzles are all about exploration and movement, and mounts and gliders are two fairly unique forms of movement which are also quite popular. Why not put them to use in puzzles?

 

(And to answer your question most of the time it doesn't bother me at all if I see someone else taking a shortcut. If it does it's because I feel bad for them - if they've not done it before then they're missing out on a chance to learn how to do it, which can come in really useful in all kinds of situations. And they might really enjoy jumping puzzles once they get the hang of them. I was utterly useless at them when I first started, but I kept trying and got better and now I love doing them.)

 

Also I don't see the difference between someone using a TP to Friend and someone using a mesmer portal, except that it's not restricted to just one profession so anyone who is willing to help can do so.

 

I still don't see what this actually adds to the game, it still sounds like a way of trying to get people who don't enjoy JPs into them just because you do like them. But you've removed my main objection by agreeing the reward could be tradable so now's the point to build on the idea to make it sound like someone other people would want in the game, to either bring the sceptics around to supporting you or attract other people to drown us out.

[Chazz.6709]

i dont mind jumping puzzles the way they are . They are in some collections and are sometimes really funny and some of them are like a question about collision and painfully experience to restart , where i wish sometimes they would remove that "NO mounts /Glider" stuff in jumping puzzles. I mean we could do what we like ... Btw im talking about the core maps jps, but well still kinda is a bitter taste in my mouth liked the variation more, since i did them the normal way or with mounts or glider . You actually had to think about how to "cheese" and be creative , thats what i like the most :) ... but thats just my opinion.

Also they are dailies too :D

[wars.3479]

Edit:

I'd simply love to have some new traditional style JPs that make me facepalm like the ol' LA JP. The feels as you lose half an hour of your time is hilarious.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"wars.3479" said:

> Instead, I'd simply love to have some new traditional style JPs that make me facepalm like the ol' LA JP. The feels as you lose half an hour of your time is hilarious.

 

As a very casual gamer with limited time (due to work/family obligations) I don't find it hilarious at all. I despise jumping puzzles as they frustrate me and waste what little time I have where I could be doing other things in game. I'm glad that they are optional content. I was really disappointed when the glider/mount restrictions went into place because as I said before, the methods of some players does not affect other players' enjoyment. Why should someone like you (not targeting you) who is a "traditionalist" when it comes to JPs really care if someone like me swoops by and completes the objective? This in no way would affect the traditionalist who enjoys the challenge of the puzzle.

 

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> You say mounts and gliders are an issue because they provide too much ease of access. But wouldn't it be better to work that into the puzzles, like they have with the newer puzzles where using a glider or mounts is actually the intended way to do it? Jumping puzzles are all about exploration and movement, and mounts and gliders are two fairly unique forms of movement which are also quite popular. Why not put them to use in puzzles?

 

I like that idea. ;)

 

[wars.3479]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> So now we've got to the point of agreeing that JPs could have unique rewards added as long as they're tradable or there is a way to get them without having to be able to do all the puzzles yourself. We could then move on to discussing how this would work best:

> * Are you thinking of one item per puzzle or a collection which requires doing multiple puzzles?

> * What kind of reward would it be?

> * What do you think would be effective at attracting people who don't already choose to repeat jumping puzzles to do them again?

> * How do you deal with people rushing through them all the first week and then still never going back?

>

> You say mounts and gliders are an issue because they provide too much ease of access. But wouldn't it be better to work that into the puzzles, like they have with the newer puzzles where using a glider or mounts is actually the intended way to do it? Jumping puzzles are all about exploration and movement, and mounts and gliders are two fairly unique forms of movement which are also quite popular. Why not put them to use in puzzles?

 

Answers to your questions:

The idea I presented had the idea of was more of a token system with various rewards from a vendor, think fractals vendors and relics. The rewards specifically themselves were a non-factors, I was more interested in a way to incentivise old content to recieve a burst of life.

As with the dailies system and fractals, which were my basis, you can't rush since your limited to 'daily.' Furthermore, with a vendor with various rewards, the incentive will always be there, particularly with the tradable approach.

Mounts and gliders in puzzles are fine, if it's designed around it. But all the core Tyrian ones were not.

 

The overall idea behind the post was for Arenanet to think to themselves: Surely we could do more with all this awesome content here? They sit on a gold mine in my eyes, but I'm probably bias. There are hundreds of jumping puzzles, that's a tonne of content, but the standard player has no reason to re-visit them. Currently there's only 2 reasons to do a jump puzzle: You enjoy them OR there's an achievement related (daily, or one-off).

 

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

> @"wars.3479" said:

> -Removed

 

I was so attracted by the title, yet I am so disappointed. The big risk of making suggestions and posting the "truth" is, people may disagree with you. 90-95% of my suggestions on this board are either technically false or the community (those who answer) totally disagree with me. If I have another idea, I will post it again. There is no progress without tries and failures.

 

Note: Only because people in your thread disagree with you, does not mean it will be ignored. A lot of awesome improvements have been suggested on these forums either by [suggestion] or by writing a controversial article about it. Some of these made it through and got implemented, although the threads have barely attracted any positive feedback at all. Whether an idea is good or not is not ours to decide. We participate in the discussion, but we do not make decisions. As long as you do not break any rules on How to give good feedback there is a good chance your ideas will be read and probably discussed or even implemented. I already lost a few suggestions that way myself. It is not worth it. And even a false assumption might lead to a change, because people think about problems from another perspective.

 

If you are willing to give it another try, I am looking forward to it. We are not evil. Everyone of us is an individual and has a personal opinion and point of view.

[wars.3479]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > @"wars.3479" said:

> > -Removed

>

> I was so attracted by the title, yet I am so disappointed. The big risk of making suggestions and posting the "truth" is, people may disagree with you. 90-95% of my suggestions on this board are either technically false or the community (those who answer) totally disagree with me. If I have another idea, I will post it again. There is no progress without tries and failures.

>

> Note: Only because people in your thread disagree with you, does not mean it will be ignored. A lot of awesome improvements have been suggested on these forums either by [suggestion] or by writing a controversial article about it. Some of these made it through and got implemented, although the threads have barely attracted any positive feedback at all. Whether an idea is good or not is not ours to decide. We participate in the discussion, but we do not make decisions. As long as you do not break any rules on How to give good feedback there is a good chance your ideas will be read and probably discussed or even implemented. I already lost a few suggestions that way myself. It is not worth it. And even a false assumption might lead to a change, because people think about problems from another perspective.

>

> If you are willing to give it another try, I am looking forward to it. We are not evil. Everyone of us is an individual and has a personal opinion and point of view.

 

Following your recommendation, I will re-post the overall idea after I write it, with the same essence. I've barely touched forums before, so I wasn't quite ready for the response I recieved.

[artemis.6781]

> @"wars.3479" said:

> Edit:

> I'd simply love to have some new traditional style JPs that make me facepalm like the ol' LA JP. The feels as you lose half an hour of your time is hilarious.

 

Maybe if you really like your idea of rewards for the traditional way of doing a JP, we could possibly have an NPC at the beginning of the JP that you can talk to and you would then only be allowed to traditional jump and not use teleports or mounts? And if you complete the puzzle that way and talk to the NPC at the end, you get the token you propose? IDK, just throwing that out there. But I believe the content should always be optional. I personally dislike JPs and loved using mounts and gliders. I wished Anet would revert their position.

[Healix.5819]

They shouldn't disable mounts/gliding for everyone, that's just a terrible experience when you have no intention of doing this content. Instead, make jumping puzzles like adventures, which would be hidden until the original chest is reached. The adventure would be where the rewards are, plus they could disable mounts, gliders, skills and whatever else they wanted to.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

> @"wars.3479" said:

> Following your recommendation, I will re-post the overall idea after I write it, with the same essence. I've barely touched forums before, so I wasn't quite ready for the response I recieved.

Thank you! I personally love JPs. There are not many good threads about this topic. You either find people complaining or people offering help. Both viewpoints have their place on this board.

 

I really like the token-system with the tradeable-option. We have a few similar systems already, like the sunken-treasures with the swimspeed infusions. You can either collect them yourselves or purchase them on TP from other players. You suggest the items to be tradeable. Why not making the currency tradeable? We also have currency in sPvP which is 100% tradeable. The shards of glory which are exchanged for gifts or can be used to craft precursors. So I do not think there would be too much problem to implement a currency for JPs which functions the same way. The game is already filled with tons of currencies. But the development since LS3 leads to even more currencies, so +- another would not cause that much confusion imho.

 

We once had a more complex system of dailies and even monthlies, which required you to complete a certain number of JPs. Giving the JP an own daily-section is difficult to justify in the community. It is a bit like comparing apples with peaches. The arguments which are used to justify WvWvW and sPvP dailies are never accepted for things like Jumping Puzzles, because it is just a niché. We are a minority at best, compared to the hordes in the Mists. I think the daily-system in its current state needs some change and many players feel so too. The system changed a lot over the years, so there is a good chance it is going to be changed again. What I would like to see is that we can select our daily tasks from more categories. So a daily JP/Minidungeon is always an option. I do not think we could get a JP only section, more of a "daily adventuerer" which is randomly a JP, Minidungeon or Worldboss.

 

A milestone-system is always a nice feature. It was always helpful in all newer puzzles. Connecting it with the loot, like in Silverwastes or Ember Bay can work. But if the milestones are not well placed, there is a chance to miss them even if you do the JP correctly. I would like to have the milestones as helpers only.

 

Mesmer portals, TP to friend, Gliders and Mounts exist in the game for reasons. Compared to certain other MMORPGs our jump-function is not just decoy as well. Again we are a minority of the community. A lot of people see the daily JP and instantly look out for a helpful mesmer with a portal, or a commander tag to see where to walk. I recently started a small event in our guildhall, by hiding treasures at certain spots. About half of the treasures were hidden at the end of selfmade JPs. Instead of asking our members not to cheat, I told them and encouraged them to use their mounts and gliders as they like. Compared to previous similar events I ran, participation drastically increased this time. Restrictions cause people to ignore content - as we can see with raids. It does feel a little awkward if you do the JP the traditional way, while others skip through with mounts and other things. But in the end all that matters is having fun. To each his own.

 

I think your suggestion has potential. I agree with the others, the current state of Jumping Puzzles is good. But things like the sunken-treasure dailies allow to finally take a look beyond. We can see first hand that a currency system as you suggest works and is accepted. You see there are people disagreeing with you, but that is part of the game. I like some points, but not everything. As long as the thread remains on the board, people can read it and use it as inspiration.

 

Thank you for reconsidering your decision. It takes a lot to take that step, a lot of people would have abandoned the thread instead.