EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"OrbitalButt.5708" said:

> It's me, the Toxic Gamer, and I have come to mansplain my manfeels and eat candy with my manmouth

>

> And I'm all out of candy

 

I think I just found my next signature...

 

---------------------------------------

 

@"castlemanic.3198"

 

Anyway, the thing with all of those articles that you've posted is that I swear I've heard them all debunked before. I can't find all the various videos talking about all of the articles, but I can give a short summation of what is wrong with each one.

 

https://www.polygon.com/2016/7/21/12241890/women-game-development

 

This one doesn't provide any evidence. It is just a collection of stories on "unconscious bias" (a notion with zero evidence) and particular events volunteered by several women who were sought out to tell those stories. I've seen this before, and it is called selection bias. If you only seek out people with problems and only talk about those problems, you can make anything seem horrible. Her solution is nonsensical and will make things worse: the status quo is such for a reason. It sells. "Challenging the narrative" basically means making propaganda games, which don't sell well. It also dabbles in the ridiculous notion of equality of outcome when it complains that men tend to be more favored in the AAA gaming department. Really? Boys are playing war games more than girls? Who'd of thunk it?

 

I'm going to paraphrase Thomas Sowell here: "The notion of equal representation is silly, for the simple reason that people are not randomly generated statistics. We are holding ourselves standard to a phenomena that has not been witnessed once in the entire history of humanity." Call me sexist, but it is foolish to deny that boys and girls generally want to do different things. I've been trying to get my sister into Yugioh for years, but to no avail. The game simply doesn't appeal to her, even if she's watching all of the TV series.

 

https://kotaku.com/d-d-wouldn-t-be-what-it-is-today-without-these-women-1796426183

 

This one commits a similar flaw above: only focusing on the negative stories and providing no evidence. Gee, an awkward girl in a place where there isn't a lot of girls feels awkward and unrepresented! I started skimming after awhile because the article is longer and dryer than the Sahara, but it looks mostly like "There were these women who helped out in shaping D&D, and occasionally they would receive awkward treatment for their chosen profession."

 

http://theconversation.com/more-women-are-becoming-game-developers-but-theres-a-long-way-to-go-79843

 

Again, this one has sampling bias, and commits the same errors as the above articles, and even links to the same book. This one provides some statistics, but they're all meaningless. Whether you have 8.7% working in the industry or 15% is a useless statistic; there is no debt to be filled by having more women work in an area. That's the same equality of outcome BS above. There is no correct or incorrect amount of people to be working in a particular field. Unless you have active proof of hiring discrimination, you have nothing. The statistics from the Australia are equally meaningless: "male-dominated industries create a culture that **may** have a 'higher tolerance of behaviours that **could be viewed** as sexual harassment' and gender biases when it comes to hiring and promoting." Emphasis mine. It has nothing. Instead of measuring the statistic, they're trying to grapple any ancillary straws and then using that as a base to make gigantic leaps and bounds toward the point they already wanted to prove in the first place.

 

Look, my sister has a degree in biology. I was working on a mathematics degree before my health failed. These STEM fields try their damndest to get women into them, but no matter how hard we try women just aren't interested in the theory if interests and wages. Also on the topic of wages, every time career choice, overall experience, and hours worked are factored in, the nebulous wage gap disappears. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/ Any claims of unfair wages are suspect due to this. The article also wholly mis-characterizes gamergate, but that is a big issue to get in to, so I'll just link to http://www.deepfreeze.it/article.php Ironically, this is one of the websites that goes over all these kinds of articles and demonstrates that they're wrong.

 

https://mashable.com/2018/01/09/video-game-diversity/#noJ5D24apOqF

 

Again, this one is pushing the equality of outcome nonsense with BS statistics. Check this one, for example: "A Pew Research Center study from 2015 shows that 19% of Hispanic people and 11% of black people in the U.S. would say the term "gamer" describes them well. Only 7% of white people would say the same." It tries to use this to imply that there is some form of hidden discrimination, but when you take into account the small portions of the population that hispanic and black people occupy, then it is stupid to think that they would get higher numbers in game development. We're talking 11% of 13%, or 1.43% of the population being black gamers, let alone be interested and capable of getting into the programming market.

 

The 48% of female gamers is also a false equivocation. They use this number to somehow try and prove that there's inequality in the system (as other articles above have mentioned), but they aren't dividing this by what games are played. What isn't being told is that the games they're playing are puzzle games, family simulators, and mobile games: https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/ Whereas their representation in shooters, MOBAs, and MMOs (the big AAA games) is extremely low.

 

https://kotaku.com/the-struggle-to-bring-more-women-into-game-development-1783683864

 

This is just another article pushing the same glass cap book that the others are pushing. This is a disingenuous tactic in journalism: repeat the same thing enough, and it'll seem like it is big news and it is all true. That's why all of these articles link to each other in an incestuous loop. It never once occurred to these articles that the reason why it is that gamegate was more likely to attack affirmative action hires is because affirmative action hires are more likely to push radical agendas. It just so happens that women are more likely to be radical feminists than men are (citation needed).

 

Overall, these perspectives are utterly myopic. "Oh, I have to _prove_ myself constantly! That is sexism!" No, it isn't. It's work. As a guy I have to prove myself constantly, too. Every prospective employer is weary of me, uncertain that I can perform, and scrutinizes me viciously for the first few months or so.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-25/games-industry-more-women-working-but-gender-bias-remains-issue/8741744

 

This one is just a copy/paste of another article posted above.

 

http://www.unite-it.eu/profiles/blogs/why-are-so-few-women-developing-video-games

 

This one just re-states the same conflated statistics and presuppositions that the other articles do.

 

https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/12/12891628/videogame-industry-salary-survey

 

Congratulations! Pay gaps exist. See the CBS news article for why.

 

There's a great video about this [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQNaT52QYYA "https://youtube.com/watch?v=cQNaT52QYYA") by Johnathan Haidt. The short version is this: correlation doesn't mean causation.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

You know that feeling when the time it takes you to write a post is longer than the time it takes for the whole issue to blow over? Yeah, I have that feeling right now.

 

I suppose the lesson of the day is: skim moar.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> Ho boy, here we go.

>

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > None of that is hate. Having unequal representation isn't harassment. Not only that, you cite the same resource many times which is going to have a bias (especially kotaku).

> >

>

> Except there are reasons cited which include harassment, but whatever

>

 

But I'll reiterate that it isn't hate. Disagreement isn't hate. Criticism isn't hate. Sensitive people now a days will associate all of those things (disagreement and criticism) as harassment or conflate something like trolling as harassment while participating in the very same type of actions. Just slapping a blanket term of harassment doesn't make reality change it to hate. And half those articles are talking about lack of representation which, again, isn't harassment.

 

 

> This is a discussion about the gaming industry, I tried to focus it as much as possible on the gaming industry. There's a whole discussion to be had about the nature of gender roles and how they've forced stigmas upon people who diverge away from their 'decided upon by society' roles, which includes men who go into nursing. There's an extremely large and in depth debate to be had about how patriarchies have affected society and how it's ended up harming everyone, there isn't a single person who hasn't been negatively affected by the patriarchy but some like the massive benefits it grants them for staying within the confines of their gender roles.

>

 

I wouldn't argue that patriarchies are harmful without context. Compared to the possible replacements, it is the most easily manageable community unit.

 

 

> This single handedly convinced me continuing a conversation with you is warrantless, and is the reason why I've kept my responses short.

>

 

Well now I'm curious. What about what I've said convinced you if that? I'm pretty open to discussion and find I usually take a contrarian stance for the sake of discussion.

 

 

[Leo G.4501]

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > @"Laivine.9308" said:

> > > > > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > > > > She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

> > > > >

> > > > > Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

> > > >

> > > > Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

> > >

> > > Exhibit approximately one million: "Racism doesn't exist, but reverse racism is totally a problem."

> > >

> > > > Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

> > > >

> > > > It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

> > >

> > > Unfortunately, the answer to the question is going to be "yes" as far as those folks are concerned. Just like "I make the most basic suggestion possible, because you have clearly never considered this" dude, they believe that they *do* have the knowledge, and the special insight, to comment intelligently on it.

> >

> > Well I'm sorry if your woman confidence keeps you at the back of the class. You'll just have to leave those people who have the "special insight" to lead the charge regardless of if you agree with them or not. Things don't get done by just letting the individuals that want to make excuses lead.

>

> Oh, sugarplum, so many things wrong in so few words, including my gender, calling the most basic possible suggestion "special insight", and that I am somehow "just making excuses" instead of, y'know, also commenting here.

>

> Just out of interest, though, how many people who have worked one year in MMO story design, let alone ten, do you think would have considered the question "could we use a branching narrative to give players more agency within our story"?

 

I didn't assume your gender, I said you have woman confidence, which is an obvious sexist jab you seem to still get caught by.

 

And if I'm being brutally honest, writing a story is damned easy especially if we're talking about the context of a game (and more specifically, GW2). I know people who could do twice as good at writing a better story and I bet wooden potatoes could do 10x better than that. Having 10 years experience writing a game story is akin to 10 years writing fanfics. It's not equivalent but it's nothing to brag about.

[Balsa.3951]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"Laivine.9308" said:

> > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

> >

> > Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

>

> Nice bait.

>

> > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > The internet mob here is embarrassing.

> >

> > Get over it it's only text u cry babies want someone looses his job because he insults someone? ( u don't even know the full history just a twitter tweet )

> >

> > How many of u would keep their job if that standard would be applied to u?

> >

> > Hope ante keeps cool and ignores those kitten here.

>

> Except that she has a history of these types of interaction and it happening once is still not an excuse. Only very few people are asking for her to lose her job and those people are wrong. You're missing the point of the thread. Don't create a strawman like that.

 

 

Only a few here want she looses her job..... ( embarrassing again)

so what u want 10 lashes or should she write a letter and apologize to u?

 

Look out of the window, take a walk u really seems to need it

 

 

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > @"Laivine.9308" said:

> > > > > > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > > > > > She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

> > > > >

> > > > > Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

> > > >

> > > > Exhibit approximately one million: "Racism doesn't exist, but reverse racism is totally a problem."

> > > >

> > > > > Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

> > > > >

> > > > > It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

> > > >

> > > > Unfortunately, the answer to the question is going to be "yes" as far as those folks are concerned. Just like "I make the most basic suggestion possible, because you have clearly never considered this" dude, they believe that they *do* have the knowledge, and the special insight, to comment intelligently on it.

> > >

> > > Well I'm sorry if your woman confidence keeps you at the back of the class. You'll just have to leave those people who have the "special insight" to lead the charge regardless of if you agree with them or not. Things don't get done by just letting the individuals that want to make excuses lead.

> >

> > Oh, sugarplum, so many things wrong in so few words, including my gender, calling the most basic possible suggestion "special insight", and that I am somehow "just making excuses" instead of, y'know, also commenting here.

> >

> > Just out of interest, though, how many people who have worked one year in MMO story design, let alone ten, do you think would have considered the question "could we use a branching narrative to give players more agency within our story"?

>

> I didn't assume your gender, I said you have woman confidence, which is an obvious sexist jab you seem to still get caught by.

>

> And if I'm being brutally honest, writing a story is damned easy especially if we're talking about the context of a game (and more specifically, GW2). I know people who could do twice as good at writing a better story and I bet wooden potatoes could do 10x better than that. Having 10 years experience writing a game story is akin to 10 years writing fanfics. It's not equivalent but it's nothing to brag about.

 

I'm a writer myself and I have to agree with this. Writing is unlike other crafts. Drawing gets better with practice. Writing does also get better with practice, but you can still be extremely poor at conveying a message or you are really good at conveying a message but poor at creating a scenario around it. It's a tricky path and most of the time you only ever get good at one of them. Depending on the other circumstances maybe only one is ever required of you so it's not apparent.

 

But in the end it is very relative and not necessarily indicative of skill or even experience,.

 

Also gotta say it's surreal to see all the things that happened in a single day. I think I gained about 300 upvotes today (humble brag Kappa) which I noticed when checking my profie as around 7 different "warning, your message has been removed" popped up from comments i replied to that were removed. I wonder if anything I said was a little too harsh and will get me infracted as well, but I don't regret anything I've said or done today.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > @"Laivine.9308" said:

> > > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > > She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

> > >

> > > Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

> >

> > Nice bait.

> >

> > > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > > The internet mob here is embarrassing.

> > >

> > > Get over it it's only text u cry babies want someone looses his job because he insults someone? ( u don't even know the full history just a twitter tweet )

> > >

> > > How many of u would keep their job if that standard would be applied to u?

> > >

> > > Hope ante keeps cool and ignores those kitten here.

> >

> > Except that she has a history of these types of interaction and it happening once is still not an excuse. Only very few people are asking for her to lose her job and those people are wrong. You're missing the point of the thread. Don't create a strawman like that.

>

>

> Only a few here want she looses her job..... ( embarrassing again)

> so what u want 10 lashes or should she write a letter and apologize to u?

>

> Look out of the window, take a walk u really seems to need it

>

>

 

500 people on reddit and forums combined directly asking for her to be fired vs 4000 people just voicing their opinion and saying they are against her behaviour.

 

The fact she/they did end up getting fired has nothing to do with the people asking for it. Why are you telling me to go outside for saying it how it is? lol

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

>

 

I don't even have to read the rest to thumbs this post up.

 

And thanks for breaking down those articles. I'm on my phone and that just isn't going to happen on my end.

[Balsa.3951]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > > @"Laivine.9308" said:

> > > > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > > > She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

> > > >

> > > > Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

> > >

> > > Nice bait.

> > >

> > > > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > > > The internet mob here is embarrassing.

> > > >

> > > > Get over it it's only text u cry babies want someone looses his job because he insults someone? ( u don't even know the full history just a twitter tweet )

> > > >

> > > > How many of u would keep their job if that standard would be applied to u?

> > > >

> > > > Hope ante keeps cool and ignores those kitten here.

> > >

> > > Except that she has a history of these types of interaction and it happening once is still not an excuse. Only very few people are asking for her to lose her job and those people are wrong. You're missing the point of the thread. Don't create a strawman like that.

> >

> >

> > Only a few here want she looses her job..... ( embarrassing again)

> > so what u want 10 lashes or should she write a letter and apologize to u?

> >

> > Look out of the window, take a walk u really seems to need it

> >

> >

>

> 500 people on reddit and forums combined directly asking for her to be fired vs 4000 people just voicing their opinion and saying they are against her behaviour.

>

> The fact she/they did end up getting fired has nothing to do with the people asking for it. Why are you telling me to go outside for saying it how it is? lol

 

U don't think is sad someone lost his job bcs of a tweet? I say go outside bcs her words didn't changed ur or other peoples world it's all in ur head who starts to believe that what is said on the internet is attacking u.

 

 

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > > > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > > > @"Laivine.9308" said:

> > > > > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > > > > She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

> > > > >

> > > > > Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

> > > >

> > > > Nice bait.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > > > > The internet mob here is embarrassing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Get over it it's only text u cry babies want someone looses his job because he insults someone? ( u don't even know the full history just a twitter tweet )

> > > > >

> > > > > How many of u would keep their job if that standard would be applied to u?

> > > > >

> > > > > Hope ante keeps cool and ignores those kitten here.

> > > >

> > > > Except that she has a history of these types of interaction and it happening once is still not an excuse. Only very few people are asking for her to lose her job and those people are wrong. You're missing the point of the thread. Don't create a strawman like that.

> > >

> > >

> > > Only a few here want she looses her job..... ( embarrassing again)

> > > so what u want 10 lashes or should she write a letter and apologize to u?

> > >

> > > Look out of the window, take a walk u really seems to need it

> > >

> > >

> >

> > 500 people on reddit and forums combined directly asking for her to be fired vs 4000 people just voicing their opinion and saying they are against her behaviour.

> >

> > The fact she/they did end up getting fired has nothing to do with the people asking for it. Why are you telling me to go outside for saying it how it is? lol

>

> U don't think is sad someone lost his job bcs of a tweet? I say go outside bcs her words didn't changed ur or other peoples world it's all in ur head who starts to believe that what is said on the internet is attacking u.

>

>

 

I've said it a dozen times by now but I don't agree with the firing. I am not particularly sad about it either though. It's just to be expected when you misbehave like that. And again, I am repeating myself because I can't expect you to read all my comments on this previously as they are buried among hundreds: It's not about the offense she might have caused, it's the behaviour as a whole that the community as a whole disagreed with that caused this entire thing to explode. **Offense is never given, it is always taken** and I haven't taken any offense to what was said. I can find something unacceptable and disgusting even if it doesn't concern me directly. It's simply telling of her character that this wasn't the first time and we do not want that in our community.

[Ephemiel.5694]

So how many people got suddenly hit by severe warnings because of this?

[Gorden.5483]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > @"Feithlinn.9284" said:

> > > > @"NoiseRen.2403" said:

> > > > > @"Feithlinn.9284" said:

> > > > > > @"NoiseRen.2403" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feithlinn.9284" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Feithlinn.9284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Dashingsteel.3410" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Feithlinn.9284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"alaskasnowgirl.6047" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feithlinn.9284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dashingsteel.3410" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feithlinn.9284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"alaskasnowgirl.6047" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we _definitely_ don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.

> > > > > > > > > As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Right now in USA there is a higher chance that a company will hire woman with the same or even less qualifications than a man just becouse they fear of being called out as bigots.

> > > > >

> > > > > They are bigots because even if they do what you say ,her payment will be much less than her male co-worker (same position - same qualifications).

> > > >

> > > > Don't want to really start Social Justice crap here, but Wage gap is a myth. Bad a poorly thought one.

> > > > https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#52642ece2596

> > >

> > > Loch Ness monster is a myth not the wage gap. Sorry.

> > > Talk about wage gap myth to non whites in USA.

> > >

> > > https://www.statista.com/topics/3453/wage-inequality-in-the-united-states/

> >

> > Can't believe that I'd see the day where somebody unironically argues the wage gap exists in one of my circles.

> >

> > There are around 2000 videos on youtube that can give you sources, that can explain you how this misconception was born. It has been proven time and time again that it doesn't exist - especially because it's illegal. Instead it is an "earnings gap" and far less severe than estimated. It also stems from the fact that so many top dogs are men and obviously get paid extraorbitant amounts of money so that the females just pale in comparison, skewing the entire statistic.

> >

> > If you take a standard job, same hours and same position you'd see that it doesn't exist or is a result of men being more competitive and haggling their wage more whereas women are historically shown to accept less pay (or because they don't really try to ask for a raise)

>

> This is flat out wrong. All valid statistics and samples indicate that the median male in most jobs make more than the median female. Also, sampling is done based on median and NOT mean to specifically prevent data from being skewed by outliers (high or low). If you do not understanding this then maybe you should not comment on any statistics.

>

> And a statement like this: "If you take a standard job, same hours and same position you'd see that it doesn't exist or is a result of men being more competitive and haggling their wage more whereas women are historically shown to accept less pay (or because they don't really try to ask for a raise)," supports the gender pay is result of gender inequality. It basically says different genders are not paid based on production but based on their gender.

>

>

 

First of all, the median does not prevent the skewing of data by outliers, it reduces the impact of outliers compared to the mean. The outliers are still part of the data though. Just to get that straight.

 

Secondly, if women generally tend to be less aggressive in wage negotiations, that doesn't imply any gender inequality at all. Because this has nothing to do with their gender, it has to do with women being some form of group of human people with different personality traits.

If you change the word women here to e.g. Jew, Muslim or black people or whatever, that doesn't make this a conversation about inequality based on religion, or skin color.

In this discussion women is not about their gender, but a generalization of a certain group of people.

 

There are also men, that less aggressively negotiate wages and earn less as a result. It's about personality, not the parts between your legs. And women just happen to be different from men in that regard, which should be no surprise to anyone, but in this day and age you may have to make it clear again, that women and men are not the same, no matter how much you want them to be.

 

Also depending on the field you work in there may very well be not a single women payed less than a man because tariffs are becoming more and more common, perhaps also because of this problem.

[Gorden.5483]

> @"Ambush.9420" said:

> > @"Feithlinn.9284" said:

>

> > Loch Ness monster is a myth not the wage gap. Sorry.

> > Talk about wage gap myth to non whites in USA.

> >

> > https://www.statista.com/topics/3453/wage-inequality-in-the-united-states/

>

> As an economist, I'd urge you to learn some basic statistical analysis before making such claims.

>

> You seem to have a poor understanding of how the specific data (regarding the 'wage gap') is actually gathered.

>

> The site you linked looks blindly at the entire population of women, and compares them (again blindly) to the entire population of men.

>

> It doesn't take into account extremely important factors such as the type of job , the hours worked, time taken off, etc.

>

> Once you account for these, the wage gap diminishes, and in fact.. recent findings suggest women actually earn MORE for the same job once these factors are equated for.

>

> Essentially, women are making less as a whole because they choose jobs that make less, they are generally worse at negotiating, and they take much more time off than the average man.

>

> Again, once you account for these factors.. the wage gap diminishes entirely (sometimes even favouring the women).

>

> Now, a good discussion would be WHY are women choosing worse paying jobs? Why are men more interested in higher paying jobs such as computer science , engineering and mathematics? Some say it's biology, others say it's due to societal pressures.

>

> You can look to the Scandinavian countries for an answer, which are without argument the most egalitarian countries in the world.. what do we find when we look there? There is actually an even BIGGER divide between men and women in terms of their career choices. The data is extremely clear on that.

>

> You can conclude that when left to their own devices, men and women make different life choices.. careers being no different. That is an extremely large part of why blindly comparing men and women (in terms of earnings) is completely ridiculous from a statistical standpoint.

>

>

>

 

Brilliant comment I must say.

People arguing about the wage gap looking at this kind of data are not looking for equality of opportunity but equality of outcome.

And that's fundamentally wrong.

[thruine.8510]

> @"DeadTreeJig.6714" said:

> > @"thruine.8510" said:

> > Opinion of what though? Her work? Gee, how could that ever be taken the wrong way? At no point did she seem to be stuck and need assistance. Now if he had worded it so it was more of I wish we could have this because then it lead to this no one would have found reason for complaint. But disagreeing and explaining how better it would be if done this way is never ever going to end well. If he had done that, she might have gone into why they can't do that if she thought he lacked the knowledge of the limitations she works within. But it seems the assumption was she was the one lacking knowledge.

>

> You seem to suggest that it was all his fault, that her reaction was appropriate and reasonable. Was that your intention?

 

With her initial reply, yes. What followed I haven't paid that much attention to since this morning. I'm still wanting an answer why all this concerns anyone else not involved. Really, if she wants to go off on someone then let her go. Let her target come back at her. Let it remain between them. Just because people have such a fascination with an argument between two people. Are people so hollow and jealous because she's not reply to them? I don't get it. If two people were arguing in the middle of the street and one of them called the other a sexist pig, people would actually jump in the middle of it to yell at them how dare they? Just because its on the internet doesn't mean its all about you. I wish people would stop trying to make it so. I can't believe someone actually said that now all they can hear is their character speaking that way. Its laughable. I am seriously 100% laughing at how pathetic people are acting in order to take on the hurt feelings of someone else. If these folks she's conversing with are hurt then let them alone. They don't need anyone else being hurt for them. Seriously, he said something, she took offense and all because a bunch of other people had to get their two cents in its blown up. The entitlement attitude is astounding over this. Because you play a game from this company every single comment from an employee is for you to personalize. Well, I'm out of here for the night. I can't wait to read about all the emotional damage tomorrow.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > > > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > > > @"Laivine.9308" said:

> > > > > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > > > > She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

> > > > >

> > > > > Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

> > > >

> > > > Nice bait.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > > > > The internet mob here is embarrassing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Get over it it's only text u cry babies want someone looses his job because he insults someone? ( u don't even know the full history just a twitter tweet )

> > > > >

> > > > > How many of u would keep their job if that standard would be applied to u?

> > > > >

> > > > > Hope ante keeps cool and ignores those kitten here.

> > > >

> > > > Except that she has a history of these types of interaction and it happening once is still not an excuse. Only very few people are asking for her to lose her job and those people are wrong. You're missing the point of the thread. Don't create a strawman like that.

> > >

> > >

> > > Only a few here want she looses her job..... ( embarrassing again)

> > > so what u want 10 lashes or should she write a letter and apologize to u?

> > >

> > > Look out of the window, take a walk u really seems to need it

> > >

> > >

> >

> > 500 people on reddit and forums combined directly asking for her to be fired vs 4000 people just voicing their opinion and saying they are against her behaviour.

> >

> > The fact she/they did end up getting fired has nothing to do with the people asking for it. Why are you telling me to go outside for saying it how it is? lol

>

> U don't think is sad someone lost his job bcs of a tweet? I say go outside bcs her words didn't changed ur or other peoples world it's all in ur head who starts to believe that what is said on the internet is attacking u.

>

>

 

It is sad. However It's also sad for all the other employees that were affected by this by proxy.

Most companies won't have a problem with your political views are as long as you don't involve the company directly. Sadly here this is what happened.

 

But yes, it's a sad day. Nobody should be happy it happened.

[thruine.8510]

Alright!! I just heard the news. Where's that joy, forum? You must be so happy. Should we start a new topic about how fulfilled and satisfying life has become for some of us or is this one going to keep going?

[alaskasnowgirl.6047]

I think this thread should end, which is why I edited the first post to show that action has been taken. Justice has been done, the company acted. It's time to move back to playing the game, enjoying the content, and putting our money where our mouth is next time there is something we like in the gem store (if we supported ANET terminating the employment of people who didn't respect customers).

[DeadTreeJig.6714]

> @"thruine.8510" said:

> > @"DeadTreeJig.6714" said:

> > > @"thruine.8510" said:

> > > Opinion of what though? Her work? Gee, how could that ever be taken the wrong way? At no point did she seem to be stuck and need assistance. Now if he had worded it so it was more of I wish we could have this because then it lead to this no one would have found reason for complaint. But disagreeing and explaining how better it would be if done this way is never ever going to end well. If he had done that, she might have gone into why they can't do that if she thought he lacked the knowledge of the limitations she works within. But it seems the assumption was she was the one lacking knowledge.

> >

> > You seem to suggest that it was all his fault, that her reaction was appropriate and reasonable. Was that your intention?

>

> With her initial reply, yes. What followed I haven't paid that much attention to since this morning. I'm still wanting an answer why all this concerns anyone else not involved. Really, if she wants to go off on someone then let her go. Let her target come back at her. Let it remain between them. Just because people have such a fascination with an argument between two people. Are people so hollow and jealous because she's not reply to them? I don't get it. If two people were arguing in the middle of the street and one of them called the other a sexist pig, people would actually jump in the middle of it to yell at them how dare they? Just because its on the internet doesn't mean its all about you. I wish people would stop trying to make it so. I can't believe someone actually said that now all they can hear is their character speaking that way. Its laughable. I am seriously 100% laughing at how pathetic people are acting in order to take on the hurt feelings of someone else. If these folks she's conversing with are hurt then let them alone. They don't need anyone else being hurt for them. Seriously, he said something, she took offense and all because a bunch of other people had to get their two cents in its blown up. The entitlement attitude is astounding over this. Because you play a game from this company every single comment from an employee is for you to personalize. Well, I'm out of here for the night. I can't wait to read about all the emotional damage tomorrow.

 

I got my answer in the first five words, didn't bother with the rest. Thanks for the reply though.

[Ralkuth.1456]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

>

> It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we _definitely_ don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

>

> My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

People often (pretend to) forget the act of writing something matters. How you bring awareness to, and present information about a certain something is significant.

I guess I'm talking about "speech acts".

[Klowdy.3126]

I'd like to keep this thread up top, since there are about 10 closed threads on the matter on the front page right now. Bump because it is annoying how things get pushed aside on these forums.

[Miss Lana.5276]

Honestly I've felt for a long time - especially with what I feel to be "forced positivity" on the forums - that we're unable to voice our honest opinion on these things without harsh repercussions, or voicing opposing points to views that are held by a wide number of members, **especially** in this community. I don't feel like a welcomed part of the community, and haven't for a long time, and that's mainly because of my political views, and how they differ drastically to what the vocal majority say here.

 

Even as I write this I'm concerned that how I'm saying what I'm saying may end up with this comment removed for being hateful or attacking in nature, when that is not my intent in the slightest. Recently I'd had a post wrongly removed because I criticised the writing. There was no personal attack, no swearing, and it was found by Gaile to be a comment that was fine in the context of the thread it was in.

 

Because of things like this that happen all the time, my biggest concern for this company - and the game as a whole - is that they haven't been listening to constructive criticism, and taking it as such, instead of labeling it as "negativity" and ignoring it. Sure, it may be "negative", but there's no way a company or a product will improve without feedback, **especially** "negative" feedback regarding flaws and weaknesses.

 

I think that people are completely blurring the lines between criticism and attacks. They are completely different things, and *they need to be treated as such*. Not only that, but if you are developing a game - and this may be the line that I cross - you **cannot** take every criticism as a personal attack. Sure, there are things in the game that I dislike, but saying that I dislike the writing does **NOT** mean that I dislike the writers. That is such a leap that I can't even comprehend why someone would make it.

[Zaklex.6308]

_I found the foundation of the problem...or at least I hope so, and if I'm correct this is a cultural issue. So it appears Deroir is European, which would mean English was their second language(unless they're from the UK, but our languages still differ enough to cause problems), if that is the case, then they wouldn't have caught on to the Twitter post being a statement of facts that was not open to discussion as the context of JP's post was. Yes, she posted it on a public social media platform, but that doesn't mean everything posted in public is open to discussion, no matter how much the rest of you think so...you need to understand the CONTEXT of the post, how it was written to understand that, but just like common sense(which does not exist in the vast majority of people), context is beyond many._

[ConanX.8641]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> _I found the foundation of the problem...or at least I hope so, and if I'm correct this is a cultural issue. So it appears Deroir is European, which would mean English was their second language(unless they're from the UK, but our languages still differ enough to cause problems), if that is the case, then they wouldn't have caught on to the Twitter post being a statement of facts that was not open to discussion as the context of JP's post was. Yes, she posted it on a public social media platform, but that doesn't mean everything posted in public is open to discussion, no matter how much the rest of you think so...you need to understand the CONTEXT of the post, how it was written to understand that, but just like common sense(which does not exist in the vast majority of people), context is beyond many._

 

If that was the case, a simple "Well, I was just intending to write down my thought process while working with the narrative team in ANet. You should hop in with your ideas and feedback next time we have an AMA or shoot us an email [@feedbackemail.com]."

 

That's it. No drama, nothing happens, and you keep your nice job. Seriously it took me 3 seconds to write that and I'm sure she makes a bazillion dollars more than I do and is far more educated (I presume). Culture, as in ethnic differences, have little if nothing to do with the vulgar and vitriolic way this dev attacked Derior.

[Binidj Two.9687]

Thoroughly disappointed with ANet and Mike O'Brien. It'd be super nice if maybe you'd have your staff's backs when some ignorant kitten unleashes on social media. Honestly I don't care if Deroir was being intentionally sexist or not, what he was doing was being a massive kittenhole pretending that he had some massive insight into a field he has zero expertise in. Such a shame that Jessica and Peter didn't work for a company that actually valued its employees. I wish them both well and hope they find a home in a more supportive environment.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"ConanX.8641" said:

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > _I found the foundation of the problem...or at least I hope so, and if I'm correct this is a cultural issue. So it appears Deroir is European, which would mean English was their second language(unless they're from the UK, but our languages still differ enough to cause problems), if that is the case, then they wouldn't have caught on to the Twitter post being a statement of facts that was not open to discussion as the context of JP's post was. Yes, she posted it on a public social media platform, but that doesn't mean everything posted in public is open to discussion, no matter how much the rest of you think so...you need to understand the CONTEXT of the post, how it was written to understand that, but just like common sense(which does not exist in the vast majority of people), context is beyond many._

>

> If that was the case, a simple "Well, I was just intending to write down my thought process while working with the narrative team in ANet. You should hop in with your ideas and feedback next time we have an AMA or shoot us an email [@feedbackemail.com]."

>

> That's it. No drama, nothing happens, and you keep your nice job. Seriously it took me 3 seconds to write that and I'm sure she makes a bazillion dollars more than I do and is far more educated (I presume). Culture, as in ethnic differences, have little if nothing to do with the vulgar and vitriolic way this dev attacked Derior.

 

Why should you have to tell people that something isn't open for discussion or that they should bring the discussion elsewhere when the tone of the comment/statement is clearly that NO discussion is wanted. Yes, it only takes a few seconds to write those additional lines, but I'm saying if you read something, then you better understand the context it was written in, otherwise don't bother reading if you can't understand context.