Ashen.2907 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say > > That's not what happened in this case. It wasn't ONE simple negative reaction, she went on for hours, she attacked multiple people. Only a person with serious issues does that, so unless those others that are "under attack" have similar important issues (they should seek help) they should be fine. Not only that, but then we should probably consider that no one can make another react. Reaction is a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"KGS.9842" said: > > @"Edge.4180" said: > > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say > > > 2. Get offended > > > 3. Someone makes reddit post > > > 4. Raise "internet-WW xyz" > > > 5. Let internet do their thing > > > 6. See someone get fired > > > 7. Mission accomplished? > > > > Another possibility: > > > > 1. Act offensively towards someone while associating yourself with a place of business. > > 2. Employer is understandably disturbed by those actions. > > 3. Employer decides this type of person is not a good fit for their company. > > 4. Internet does its own thing in the background without having any real impact on any of the above. > > I want to have a go at this too: > 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say > 2. Get offended > 2.1. People realize that you were intentionally trying to provoke someone and laugh at you > 2.2. Nothing else happens [end of branch 1] > 3.1 People see that the person reacted negatively towards you despite your best intentions > 3.2 The employer of the person sees that he is harming his company with their behavior > 3.3 Person gets fired (not because of you but because of themselves) [end of branch 2] > > So either Derior was a master tactician who managed to convince everyone he just wanted to have a simple discussion and did not deserve to be treated like kitten, while his true intention was to get her fired... or branch 3 played out > Please..no .. no more branching narratives and ideas, haven't we seen enough "slight disagreements" already :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jukhy.2431 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Jukhy.2431" said: > > I think what most people who disagree with MO's decision are trying to say, is that from their ethical viewpoint it was wrong. Personally I can understand and even relate to this sentiment. > > > > Many companies might indeed act in an ethical way, but in the end that can play small part in these decisions, especially if the brand name reputation is threatened. This is a part of how corporations operate, because their end goal is to make profit for the shareholders. Like it or not, this is the corporate world we live in. > > I don't understand in which part of this century did firing someone mistreating their consumer become unethical. > Before, burn outs were never an excuse for that, especially without apology. > > Ethics with double standards aren't worth much, imho. This specific case is entirely political. > > Indeed. Just wanted to point out why I think some _reasonable_ people disagree with the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanity Obscure.6054 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Drogot.4629" said: > Because you claim the community was outraged about this. But most of the community didn' even know this happened. As evidenced by the login activity on Reddit and commentation quantity here in the forums, I would say the community was well aware. > I don't know how much of the community has participated in this > and i don't know the opinion of all those community members who haven't participated in this. All I know is that not all of the community agrees with this decision and that I certainly don't. Alright, well, you have contradicted yourself already. Nevertheless, the decision never needed an opinion from the community (yet ArenaNet is open and forthcoming enough to encourage it) and would be common sense for any company to avoid negative attention. > I don't want to post here because it's very frustrating. > you know why? Because we already lost. No matter what I write here, no matter how much I do or do not own you in this discussion, there are still two people who lost their job. That is an appeal to emotion, which is an error in logical thinking. > And I won't even change someones mind about this, because my argument basically would boil down to the fact, that if you celebrate this, you are a bad person. And what is your case that we are bad people for supporting O' Brien's decision? > No one is going to just change their mind to that. We are not arguing about facts here. We are arguing about feelings. No, these are facts. We know Jessica called her employment's customers "random ***hats" and that she didn't have to "pretend" to like about them outside of work on her public social media account, although she erroneously claimed it was private. The manner in which it was said is also arguable that she insinuates that she doesn't when at work as well. And while there are some facts behind the scenes that are not our business to know, the logic behind this decision can be, and was reached without being compromised emotionally. > And to get to those feelings we would have to go trough a books worth of argument and counter argument to get to the conclusion that we disagree fundamentally about some things. I believe it can be reached quite easily without emotional conclusions. > I believe there are more people who have a similar opinion to mine who don't post here. More people than would support your celebration of this. I can't proof that. But that is my reason to post here. To make sure this thread does not just represent people who agree with this decision by ANet. If they have some evidence that isn't being presented, I'm sure everyone here would encourage it. But mob mentality and gross perversion of the facts is detrimental to any side's opinions, whether it is the outlier comments on Reddit that claim to have authority over ArenaNet, or the articles quoting those comments that subsequently hurt Jessica Price, it all only causes more uneeded press for this incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"thruine.8510" said: > > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said: > > > @"thruine.8510" said: > > > But we do. Mike gave that followup statement. He basically ignored PF to focus on JP as the internet as a whole has done. > > Well, that's demonstrably false. > > > > I await the demonstration then. But tomorrow for me as I have other things to do besides GW2 and its issues. In other words you spoke falsely and have nothing to back that up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Drogot.4629" said: > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > @"Drogot.4629" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Harassing and attacking customers of your buisness is a minor infraction now? In what world? Its exactly the kind of behaviour that gets people fired. > > > > > > > > We can all get snappy sometimes and I still wonder what would have happened if she had simply apologized to Deroir for publicly deriding him and left it at that, but its most definetly **not** a minor infraction. > > > > > > > > MO has a longer response I saw posted on Polygon if you want to check it put, but the incredibly biased article is ridiculous otherwise. I advice taking a look on youtube and Yongyea videos on this. > > > > > > Oh boy. Her I am discussing this... > > > > > > 1. A single Insult is not Harassment. Harassment would be if she put pressure on Deroirs employer to fire him. > > > 2. You say it's not a minor infraction. So let me ask you: What's the worst that Deroir has to endure a month from now? The two worst things that I can think of are that he feels kind of guilty for his role in this (from what I've seen he shouldnt tough) or he gets vilified by a certain part of the games media/community and end up in a similar position like TotalBiscuit. In both of these cases the fault lies more with ANet or the Community than with JP > > > 3. Should JP have apologized to Deroir? Yeah I think she should have. Deroir didn't cause her outburst. He was just the last person who explained her job to her and for that he got the full force of the anger. He should get an apology for that. But in a situation where you are constantly atacked it is hard to give such an apology. I bet some backup and mediation from ANet would have helped a lot with that. Instead she got fired after 2 days. > > > 4. It took them only two days to decide to fire an employee. It took them 3-4 days to admit that lootbox Mounts where a bad idea (altough not taking them back or fireing someonfe for it). Does that not seem a bit inconsistent to you? MO says they didn't fire her because of the community backlash. But do you really believe that? > > > > > > Sure. Someone might point out that there might have been other problems with JP we don't know about. But there were 2 people fired. Seems like a bit of a coincidence to me. > > > > > > > Not a single insult. After the first public and humiliating shut down for the sin of asking a question there was > > > > >like, the next rando [kitten]hat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me--as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a [kitten] DECADE, I have never heard of it--is getting instablocked. PSA. > > > > This was several hours after she had received two apologies and he had left yet she continued to attack him, which is bullying. > > > > Then a second post where she makes a sexist post putting down men’s feeling. if a man had made a post about “hurt womanfeels” he would have been shot down for sexism but apparently it’s ok for a woman to denigrate and minimize men’s feelings. > > > > >Since we've got a lot of hurt manfeels today, lemme make something clear: this is my feed. I'm not on the clock here. I'm not your emotional courtesan just because I'm a dev. Don't expect me to pretend to like you here. > > > > As too what Deroir might endure a month from now none can say. But he has been accused of sexist mansplaining by the gamer sites and that’s going follow him for the rest of his life. > > > > > > As an aside, I was amused by the disclaimer on the bottom of the article I got these tweets from which reads > > “The Mary Sue has a strict comment policy that forbids, but is not limited to, personal insults toward anyone, hate speech, and trolling.” > > As the article discusses her personal insults towards Deroir and sexist remarks towards men, yet finds them ok. > > > > Edit: grammar > > Well. I can't find Deroirs apologies but let's just assume they were there. ("I did not want to offend" is not an apology btw.) Actually it is. You don’t have to formally say “I apologize” in order to apologize. “[apology](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apology): usually applies to an expression of regret for a mistake or wrong with implied admission of guilt or fault and with or without reference to mitigating or extenuating circumstances” In this case “I did not want to offend” is an expression of regret with an acknowledgement that he caused offense, however inadvertently. > Shutting someones basic argument down because you don't want to debunk it is not an insult. Neither is accusing someone of mansplaining (especially if it's what they were doing.) I didn’t say it was an insult. I said it was a public and humiliating shutdown. The two insults I referred to were the rando kittenhat and the sexist dismissal of any hurt feelings from men (including him) as “hurt manfeels” > But let's just make something clear: Mansplaining may be sexist but it does not make someone a sexist (unless you go by the definition that everybody with unconcios biases is sexist. But then pretty much everybody is sexist.) I didn’t say that he was. I said that the _gaming magazines_ are using what happened as JP dealing with sexism and mansplaining. This is going to be something he will have to deal with as time goes by and people forget the details but remember the accusation. > Then there is the second tweet where JP implies that Deroir is an "kitten". That is clearly an insult altough a very tame one. I’m glad to hear that calling a partner and customer of the place she works a Rando kittenhat is very tame. I’m going to start using it when customers of my job annoy me. I’m sure that my boss will have no objections to such a mild and tame comment. > Then there is the hurt manfeels part and with that one the community just proved her point. You could see that comment as sexist but if that were the worst sexism we men have to endure we would be so lucky. I'm willing to cut JP some slack here because at that point i don't want to know how much abuse was hurled her way.... It doesn’t prove her point, or yours. Women also were offended by her remarks. She (and it looks like you since you’re saying it proves her point) assumed all the people pushing back were men, which is another piece of sexist thinking as it assumes both men and women think and feel as a group, not individuals. > Also you say we don't know how this will affect Deroir in a month and that is technically true. However: I challenge you to look at the replies to Deroirs latest tweets and at JPs latest tweet (about Caesar III) and tell me if you can spot the difference... Again, it’s not the immediate response but the long term. People remember accusations but forget details. It’s something he’s going to have to explain when he applies for jobs in the future and he’s going to have to show proof, and hope the person he speaks to believes him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say > > > > That's not what happened in this case. It wasn't ONE simple negative reaction, she went on for hours, she attacked multiple people. Only a person with serious issues does that, so unless those others that are "under attack" have similar important issues (they should seek help) they should be fine. > > Not only that, but then we should probably consider that no one can make another react. Reaction is a choice. Exactly, thats why alot of us choose not to react and continue playing (or not). I mean, I feel I could say or correct so many things but in the end you cant decide for the other party let alone their reaction. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkman.9026 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I would hope that folks at least admit that GW2 management royal screwed this whole thing up. They completely lost control of the situation and have continued to make things worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jukhy.2431 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Junkman.9026" said: > > @"Jukhy.2431" said: > > > @"Junkman.9026" said: > > > This honestly all feels like scapegoating two employees that the community had a hate-on for, meanwhile the problems with the game continue. > > > > I'd like to point out that there are over 11 million accounts in GW2. Do you honestly think that few loud posters here represent the whole playerbase? Most players have never visited these forums and never will. I'd even say that the majority don't give a kitten about this whole controversy, because they just want to enjoy playing the game. > > Yeah but look at the comments on reddit and here. It will make some people distracted while other things continue to suck. > > This whole thing makes more sense if you realize that the problems with GW2 probably start at the way things are run at the top. Again, the comments here/reddit represent only a tiny fraction of the whole playerbase. And why are you playing this game if that's your view of it? There are plenty of other mmo games. As for how things are run, well.. that is subjective, as most things are, and it is a corporate world we live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evon Skyfyre.9673 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 One positive result of this for me personally, is I won't look at games or their creators in same way anymore. Basically the curtain has been pulled back and I now see they are just people. Nothing more, nothing less. They hold no special place in life, and to be honest it would seem they do not want one either. It's a job. I like reading how things work. Imagining what it might be like to work on such things. I spin my own stories in my head for my characters, always have. I've played rpgs in one form or another since the late 80's? (when did Zork come out? lol) Since then much has changed. One constant is the players. Attitudes in games have pretty much been the same since MMORPGS started, they are just being voiced openly more often now. Not sure if that is good or not, I'm not the arbiter so.. meh. One thing I do appreciate more and more is going in any game and turning off the chat, and getting lost in the scenery. Adds replay value. It does seem though, that Social issues are the buzzword lately. And player treatment is in the forefront. But altruistic diatribes aside, they appear to mainly be the focus of game companies watching their bottom line. Nothing new there. To any enterprising students here, there has got to be a senior psyche thesis in this somewhere. Message boards have not changed since their inception, oh they look and run differently but they are still just social petri dishes. Add stimuli note changes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogot.4629 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"CorneredLamp.7809" said: > > A single comment? > > Why are you disingenuous? She's made plenty of other comments to another community figure, and there were no insane 'alt right' attacks on her before the firing. > > You are simply defending her because that's what your bias tells you to do. Taking me out of context here. I just said that a single comment is not harassment and neither are two or three (or more. It's not about the number.) There was probably some dogpiling on both sides but that is just because twitter is bad. But maybe you just don't see my point because of your bias. Or I think that because of my bias? Or you thinkt hat I think that because of your bias? You see where that leads? (It's nowhere) > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Drogot.4629" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > > Lol.. you don't want to discuss it cos it makes you sick, but not enough to come to the forum and share your opinion.. lacking any detailed reasoning as it does... makes sense. > > > TBH, ANET / MO didn't actually have to put out any kind of statement, be thankful the statement was released instead of reading it through JP's continuing doubling, no tripling, no wait quadrupling down on her unprofessional bad mouthing. > > > I see only a senior figure of a company attempting to keep his customers aware that the business as a whole has taken a very serious view on something which not only outraged the community, but could of had a serious issue on the company revenues goes forward, thus placing other innocent victims within the company at risk of.. ya know, not having a job either. > > > Sure you can have an opinion and it differs from mine and many others here and that's perfectly fine, I respect that... what JP did however, was take a slight differing of opinion extremely badly to which she immediately set about disrespecting the mouths that feed her in a totally unprofessional way and then intensified that with her own twisted divisive narrative.. not something I see either ANET or PF for that matter doing here. > > > > That is acutally the point why I did post here even tough this makes me sick. > > > > Because you claim the community was outraged about this. But most of the community didn' even know this happened. I only found out about this afte JP got fired and only because I follow certain people on twitter and was looking at the right time. I don't know how much of the community has participated in this and i don't know the opinion of all those community members who haven't participated in this. All I know is that not all of the community agrees with this decision and that I certainly don't. > > > > I don't want to post here because it's very frustrating. You know why? Because we already lost. No matter what I write here, no matter how much I do or do not own you in this discussion, there are still two people who lost their job. And I won't even change someones mind about this, because my argument basically would boil down to the fact, that if you celebrate this, you are a bad person. No one is going to just change their mind to that. We are not arguing about facts here. We are arguing about feelings. And to get to those feelings we would have to go trough a books worth of argument and counter argument to get to the conclusion that we disagree fundamentally about some things. > > > > I believe there are more people who have a similar opinion to mine who don't post here. More people than would support your celebration of this. I can't proof that. But that is my reason to post here. To make sure this thread does not just represent people who agree with this decision by ANET. > > It's clear you haven't even read through the whole event, you haven't read through this thread, you are basing your feelings on the fact 2 people got fired without even considering why, what the facts are/were, what previous issues might of come into play and why a business such as ANET stood to loose more than it gained from not acting on the issue. > You think because we have differing opinions myself and others are celebrating this.. again go read through this thread and show me how I am celebrating it.. in fact I believe on at least a dozen occasions I have suggested it wrong to celebrate it, it's not nice or a win for either party, but neither is being attacked by a dev, someone a poster admired and wished to attempt reasonable dialogue around "a slight disagreement" with some work related content that dev put out for public consumption. > I agree with the decision to fire JP... I am on the fence regarding PF because I just did not see enough to warrant instant dismissal based on it, but that's the point, you or I have no idea what their decisions were based on and whether it was the only option on the cards. > > Debating is not arguing.. I leave that to people like JP... and yes it is about facts, making your decision based on a fact 2 people got fired is a fact, but I prefer to look at the facts as to why they were and they are undeniable. First of: Sorry for miscaracterized you. My whole Post is a bit of a ramble. In my effort to explain why I posted here I generalized a lot. I Edited the original Post to point out that I was stupid and tried to summarize what i wanted (and failed) to say. I quote these two things here. <1. Initially I didn't want to engage with this thread because the whole situation agitates and depresses me. But I felt that I should engage because if everybody who felt like me didn't join the discussion it would look to someone from the outside like there where less people disagreing with the firing. <2. The second point is the really stupid one. I argued that no one will change their mind because the two sides are so different. This is obviously stupid becaus there are a multitude of opinion about this subject and while the two extremes might never agree, there still might be someone who was swayed in on or the other direction. I was not there for the whole thing to happen and I did not read the whole thread that is true. I'm also not going to. If you thinkt that makes my arguments invalid: Congratulations on your win. Go have a cookie. Again: Sorry that I suggested that you Celebrated. I just like to point out that there are people who celebrate this. You say we don't know on what Anet based their reaction. That is true. But the fact that two people were fired makes it hard for me to believe that this was just the last straw. The Fact that they got fired so soon afte this happende also suggests to me they did not realy try to solve this without firing someon. They just wanted this to go awas so the trew JP and PF under the bus. And if you combine that with the fact that how long they took to decide that randomized moun skins were a bad idea this realy says a lot to me. But hey. I don't know and neither do you. Lastly: You say you prefer to look at undeniable facts: Well. For me it is an undeniable fact that it is much worse to lose your job than when someone is rude to you on twitter. Especially if that person is not a huge celebrity with million of followers. I have not seen a single tweet from JP who would warant a firing. I've seen one who crossed a line but that one is from a while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponytheguardian.7439 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say > > > > That's not what happened in this case. It wasn't ONE simple negative reaction, she went on for hours, she attacked multiple people. Only a person with serious issues does that, so unless those others that are "under attack" have similar important issues (they should seek help) they should be fine. > > Not only that, but then we should probably consider that no one can make another react. Reaction is a choice. But if there was "multiple", then > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > 1. [Multiple people] Make someone react negatively to something ~~you~~ [they] say > 2. [Multiple people] Get offended ...and so on. But yes, I'm aware of couple incidents similar to Deroir, where JP vented out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge.4180 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Junkman.9026" said: > I would hope that folks at least admit that GW2 management royal screwed this whole thing up. They completely lost control of the situation and have continued to make things worse. Can you please explain specifically what about the way this situation went led you to this opinion? To recap: 1. An employee makes comments/behaves in a way that is unacceptable to the employer. 2. The following day the employee's employment with the company is terminated. 3. The employer addressed a community thread regarding the employee's behavior by announcing that employee is no longer with the company. 4. The employer offers a perspective on its judgment to media organizations that are running numerous articles condemning their decision to terminate the employee, primarily to reassure everyone that their decision was not in response to the wishes of an angry internet mob (as those articles were claiming). Where, for you, is the "royal screw up" for ArenaNet in this chain of events? I'm just trying to understand your thinking here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > > 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say > > > > > > That's not what happened in this case. It wasn't ONE simple negative reaction, she went on for hours, she attacked multiple people. Only a person with serious issues does that, so unless those others that are "under attack" have similar important issues (they should seek help) they should be fine. > > > > Not only that, but then we should probably consider that no one can make another react. Reaction is a choice. > But if there was "multiple", then > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > 1. [Multiple people] Make someone react negatively to something ~~you~~ [they] say > > 2. [Multiple people] Get offended > ...and so on. > > But yes, I'm aware of couple incidents similar to Deroir, where JP vented out. I really do apologize, but I do not understand your point in the quoted post. Multiple people cannot make someone react negatively either. I suppose I should amend that. If the one person, or multiple people, were to use actual force I believe that would constitute making someone react. I have not seen any evidence that anyone found JP at her home and held her at gun point, refusing to release her until she complied with their demands to react negatively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > > 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say > > > > > > That's not what happened in this case. It wasn't ONE simple negative reaction, she went on for hours, she attacked multiple people. Only a person with serious issues does that, so unless those others that are "under attack" have similar important issues (they should seek help) they should be fine. > > > > Not only that, but then we should probably consider that no one can make another react. Reaction is a choice. > But if there was "multiple", then > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > 1. [Multiple people] Make someone react negatively to something ~~you~~ [they] say > > 2. [Multiple people] Get offended > ...and so on. > > But yes, I'm aware of couple incidents similar to Deroir, where JP vented out. I think, could be wrong though, everyone that has a twitter account **and** a job, is also an adult. Block features on social media exist for a reason. Also, as Mike said, if an employee is harassed they can go to their company and ask for "protection", instead of lashing out on their own, fanning the flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGS.9842 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"KGS.9842" said: > > > @"Edge.4180" said: > > > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > > 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say > > > > 2. Get offended > > > > 3. Someone makes reddit post > > > > 4. Raise "internet-WW xyz" > > > > 5. Let internet do their thing > > > > 6. See someone get fired > > > > 7. Mission accomplished? > > > > > > Another possibility: > > > > > > 1. Act offensively towards someone while associating yourself with a place of business. > > > 2. Employer is understandably disturbed by those actions. > > > 3. Employer decides this type of person is not a good fit for their company. > > > 4. Internet does its own thing in the background without having any real impact on any of the above. > > > > I want to have a go at this too: > > 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say > > 2. Get offended > > 2.1. People realize that you were intentionally trying to provoke someone and laugh at you > > 2.2. Nothing else happens [end of branch 1] > > 3.1 People see that the person reacted negatively towards you despite your best intentions > > 3.2 The employer of the person sees that he is harming his company with their behavior > > 3.3 Person gets fired (not because of you but because of themselves) [end of branch 2] > > > > So either Derior was a master tactician who managed to convince everyone he just wanted to have a simple discussion and did not deserve to be treated like kitten, while his true intention was to get her fired... or branch 3 played out > > > > Please..no .. no more branching narratives and ideas, haven't we seen enough "slight disagreements" already :) Sorry I forgot conflicting ideas are forbidden ;) The possibility of one situation developing in different waves based on various factors may trigger someone so I'll keep quiet. Also I hear logic is being switched off next monday so better get ready for that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Drogot.4629" said: > The Fact that they got fired so soon afte this happende also suggests to me they did not realy try to solve this without firing someon. I'm confused, did those that got fired try to solve this first? Did they ask for help from the company? No. Did they stop their behavior instead of making things worse? No. Did they simply apologize? Not that either. There was really nothing to be said about the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Drogot.4629" said: > > @"CorneredLamp.7809" said: > > > > A single comment? > > > > Why are you disingenuous? She's made plenty of other comments to another community figure, and there were no insane 'alt right' attacks on her before the firing. > > > > You are simply defending her because that's what your bias tells you to do. > > Taking me out of context here. I just said that a single comment is not harassment and neither are two or three (or more. It's not about the number.) There was probably some dogpiling on both sides but that is just because twitter is bad. > > But maybe you just don't see my point because of your bias. Or I think that because of my bias? Or you thinkt hat I think that because of your bias? You see where that leads? (It's nowhere) > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Drogot.4629" said: > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > > > > Lol.. you don't want to discuss it cos it makes you sick, but not enough to come to the forum and share your opinion.. lacking any detailed reasoning as it does... makes sense. > > > > TBH, ANET / MO didn't actually have to put out any kind of statement, be thankful the statement was released instead of reading it through JP's continuing doubling, no tripling, no wait quadrupling down on her unprofessional bad mouthing. > > > > I see only a senior figure of a company attempting to keep his customers aware that the business as a whole has taken a very serious view on something which not only outraged the community, but could of had a serious issue on the company revenues goes forward, thus placing other innocent victims within the company at risk of.. ya know, not having a job either. > > > > Sure you can have an opinion and it differs from mine and many others here and that's perfectly fine, I respect that... what JP did however, was take a slight differing of opinion extremely badly to which she immediately set about disrespecting the mouths that feed her in a totally unprofessional way and then intensified that with her own twisted divisive narrative.. not something I see either ANET or PF for that matter doing here. > > > > > > That is acutally the point why I did post here even tough this makes me sick. > > > > > > Because you claim the community was outraged about this. But most of the community didn' even know this happened. I only found out about this afte JP got fired and only because I follow certain people on twitter and was looking at the right time. I don't know how much of the community has participated in this and i don't know the opinion of all those community members who haven't participated in this. All I know is that not all of the community agrees with this decision and that I certainly don't. > > > > > > I don't want to post here because it's very frustrating. You know why? Because we already lost. No matter what I write here, no matter how much I do or do not own you in this discussion, there are still two people who lost their job. And I won't even change someones mind about this, because my argument basically would boil down to the fact, that if you celebrate this, you are a bad person. No one is going to just change their mind to that. We are not arguing about facts here. We are arguing about feelings. And to get to those feelings we would have to go trough a books worth of argument and counter argument to get to the conclusion that we disagree fundamentally about some things. > > > > > > I believe there are more people who have a similar opinion to mine who don't post here. More people than would support your celebration of this. I can't proof that. But that is my reason to post here. To make sure this thread does not just represent people who agree with this decision by ANET. > > > > It's clear you haven't even read through the whole event, you haven't read through this thread, you are basing your feelings on the fact 2 people got fired without even considering why, what the facts are/were, what previous issues might of come into play and why a business such as ANET stood to loose more than it gained from not acting on the issue. > > You think because we have differing opinions myself and others are celebrating this.. again go read through this thread and show me how I am celebrating it.. in fact I believe on at least a dozen occasions I have suggested it wrong to celebrate it, it's not nice or a win for either party, but neither is being attacked by a dev, someone a poster admired and wished to attempt reasonable dialogue around "a slight disagreement" with some work related content that dev put out for public consumption. > > I agree with the decision to fire JP... I am on the fence regarding PF because I just did not see enough to warrant instant dismissal based on it, but that's the point, you or I have no idea what their decisions were based on and whether it was the only option on the cards. > > > > Debating is not arguing.. I leave that to people like JP... and yes it is about facts, making your decision based on a fact 2 people got fired is a fact, but I prefer to look at the facts as to why they were and they are undeniable. > > First of: Sorry for miscaracterized you. My whole Post is a bit of a ramble. In my effort to explain why I posted here I generalized a lot. I Edited the original Post to point out that I was stupid and tried to summarize what i wanted (and failed) to say. I quote these two things here. > > <1. Initially I didn't want to engage with this thread because the whole situation agitates and depresses me. But I felt that I should engage because if everybody who felt like me didn't join the discussion it would look to someone from the outside like there where less people disagreing with the firing. > <2. The second point is the really stupid one. I argued that no one will change their mind because the two sides are so different. This is obviously stupid becaus there are a multitude of opinion about this subject and while the two extremes might never agree, there still might be someone who was swayed in on or the other direction. > > I was not there for the whole thing to happen and I did not read the whole thread that is true. I'm also not going to. If you thinkt that makes my arguments invalid: Congratulations on your win. Go have a cookie. > > Again: Sorry that I suggested that you Celebrated. I just like to point out that there are people who celebrate this. > > You say we don't know on what Anet based their reaction. That is true. But the fact that two people were fired makes it hard for me to believe that this was just the last straw. The Fact that they got fired so soon afte this happende also suggests to me they did not realy try to solve this without firing someon. They just wanted this to go awas so the trew JP and PF under the bus. And if you combine that with the fact that how long they took to decide that randomized moun skins were a bad idea this realy says a lot to me. But hey. I don't know and neither do you. > > Lastly: You say you prefer to look at undeniable facts: Well. For me it is an undeniable fact that it is much worse to lose your job than when someone is rude to you on twitter. Especially if that person is not a huge celebrity with million of followers. I have not seen a single tweet from JP who would warant a firing. I've seen one who crossed a line but that one is from a while back. Apology accepted. No one is saying you should alter your opinion or that in some way I or others should change ours.. that's the whole point with debating opinons and facts.. we can all still have differences. As for undeniable fact that 2 people lost their jobs... true and yes its bad for them, but as has already been said a multitude of times .. actions have consequence and unfortunately MO and ANET have to also consider the ramifications of their actions and how that could ultimately effect the business. If the bad mouthing of an anet content partner, further fuelled by JP's derogative unwarranted slurs against the poster and others wasn't enough she carried on to make unfounded claims of sexism within ANET suggesting there was an environment that made is unsafe for women she had supposedly encouraged, been encouraging to work there. .. even though she thought well of ANET to actually encourage them in the first place.. such a lot changed in such a short amount of time she was actually with the company, don't ya think... and lets not forget her previous dismal and controversial postings. Nahh I think this is just how she is, she likes the controversy, maybe even feeding off it in order to forward her own narratives and agendas, but who knows other than JP herself why she thinks its cool to act the way she did/does. But once again her poor form and unprofessional action met with consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reimia.8741 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Cyrin.1035" said: > *Please keep the discussion focused to constructively discuss this topic. **Focus on evidence and suggestions, not hate or assumptions. Ultimately we just want our game and community to be strong.** > I hope she isn't terminated, but I also hope she **personally gives an apology** to the playerbase and those two GW 2 streamers who are a big part of our community. If she does and it's a **decent apology**, this can possibly be salvaged. Give her a chance to redeem herself just as you have with that blockhead Braham. One chance. Nothing more. And this is why Trump is president. There is a large amount of people that are fed up with this sad way of forcing people to argue at your level. Your first sentence is full of pretty words about being a great community but it's really just a warning of "Converse the way I want you to or be removed". Then you go on to say she should apologize which is always the wrong move. Putting aside whether it was a moment of anger or whether she truly does feel sorry, you're really only interested in the facade of groveling. Every day this kind of behavior breeds more and more liberal haters. Seriously ANET couldn't give a damn whether she was a woman/man/goblin. They just want that cash shop to keep flowing so their investors can keep upgrading their yachts and she ever so slightly bit the hand that fed which in their world was to remove her with impunity and pretend it was all for the customer. Look at how many upvotes Mikes copy+paste "this is all for you" response got rofl. This is why psychopaths have always ruled the world, people are too easy to control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravyn.4671 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I can't believe people are actually defending Price and trying to vilify Anet for their decision. Or that there are people in this thread trying to claim Deroir was being condescending. What?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGS.9842 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Reimia.8741" said: > > @"Cyrin.1035" said: > > *Please keep the discussion focused to constructively discuss this topic. **Focus on evidence and suggestions, not hate or assumptions. Ultimately we just want our game and community to be strong.** > > > I hope she isn't terminated, but I also hope she **personally gives an apology** to the playerbase and those two GW 2 streamers who are a big part of our community. If she does and it's a **decent apology**, this can possibly be salvaged. Give her a chance to redeem herself just as you have with that blockhead Braham. One chance. Nothing more. > > And this is why Trump is president. There is a large amount of people that are fed up with this sad way of forcing people to argue at your level. Your first sentence is full of pretty words about being a great community but it's really just a warning of "Converse the way I want you to or be removed". Then you go on to say she should apologize which is always the wrong move. Putting aside whether it was a moment of anger or whether she truly does feel sorry, you're really only interested in the facade of groveling. Every day this kind of behavior breeds more and more liberal haters. > > Seriously ANET couldn't give a kitten whether she was a woman/man/goblin. They just want that cash shop to keep flowing so their investors can keep upgrading their yachts and she ever so slightly bit the hand that fed which in their world was to remove her with impunity and pretend it was all for the customer. Look at how many upvotes Mikes copy+paste "this is all for you" response got rofl. This is why psychopaths have always ruled the world, people are too easy to control. So what's the alternative? Just slap her on wrist for her abusive behavior when she clearly feels no remorse whatsoever. That would be a statement not only that the management doesn't care what happens to their customers, but also that the dev team itself has no respect for them. Now at least the dev who clearly has no respect is removed. Also anet gets some free publicity so it's a win-win-win. Finally I don't know why you have to bring trump into all of this, I for example live in eastern europe, and could care less about him.. pretty sure the world doesn't revolve around the US (however much they want it to be so) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiyucyti.1409 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 It's easy. She got fired because of being a asshole to their customer on a public social media. It's nothing do with she's a woman or how good she is as a writer( I personally think it's alright).Riot has done it too. Gender card is not going to work here. You fuck up and got fired that's it. Nothing about gender non her work . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkReign.4503 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Latest kind of update, reviews a lot of this mess current and old. This reviews the media bias as well this seems to be getting worse this is getting blown way overboard and they are blindly defending someone like JP it's nuts, facts don't matter and everything is feeling. This is one of the best gaming communities I've played in with females and males being respectful having fun I don't get that in other games I play it's bad out there, I'm not boycotting it. I like the game I'm going to still play it, in game no one said anything about this yet I'm very happy about it because it's garbage the gaming media is proof it's garbage this is not the way to show feminist views and it's making it all seem idiotic again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow.3671 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I'd just like to thank Anet's management for defending the community and player base from toxic abuse. I also wish to express that the negative opinions of certain "Game Media " sites do not represent the views of a majority of players and certainly not me. I hope that Anet will continue to put the player base first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrin.1035 Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 > > @"Cyrin.1035" said: > > *Please keep the discussion focused to constructively discuss this topic. **Focus on evidence and suggestions, not hate or assumptions. Ultimately we just want our game and community to be strong.** > > > I hope she isn't terminated, but I also hope she **personally gives an apology** to the playerbase and those two GW 2 streamers who are a big part of our community. If she does and it's a **decent apology**, this can possibly be salvaged. Give her a chance to redeem herself just as you have with that blockhead Braham. One chance. Nothing more. > @"Reimia.8741" said: And this is why Trump is president. There is a large amount of people that are fed up with this sad way of forcing people to argue at your level. Your first sentence is full of pretty words about being a great community but it's really just a warning of "Converse the way I want you to or be removed". Then you go on to say she should apologize which is always the wrong move. Reimia, I think you're on a whole other topic and it certainly has you emotionally effected. You need to keep focused, which is one of the requests in the first post. The requests are simply to keep this thread from being deleted as the others have for devolving into insults and non-constructive discussion. Which is possibly one of the reasons why Mo chose to post his response here as opposed to other threads on the same topic at the time. I titled and made this thread the way it is specifically for the purpose of allowing us to keep a thread on the topic open. Over 60 pages later, I'm glad the requests have held up for the most part. > Then you go on to say she should apologize which is always the wrong move. Putting aside whether it was a moment of anger or whether she truly does feel sorry, you're really only interested in the facade of groveling. Every day this kind of behavior breeds more and more liberal haters. "_always the wrong move_" - Clearly, from this statement alone, there is ignorance and it is an indication that there is already an overt bias, which may make it difficult for you and I to respond to one another, but hopefully that isn't all that drives your posts. An apology, show of compassion, or delaration of a changed view/way is and will always be necessary for those that desire any sort of credibility in their remorse for their choices. However, if there is no remorse and they continue to believe in their choices, then they should NOT apologize. JP and PF did not apologize and they do not have remorse, so they will continue to defend their actions and others will continue to point out how they failed many. > Seriously ANET couldn't give a kitten whether she was a woman/man/goblin. They just want that cash shop to keep flowing so their investors can keep upgrading their yachts and she ever so slightly bit the hand that fed which in their world was to remove her with impunity and pretend it was all for the customer. Look at how many upvotes Mikes copy+paste "this is all for you" response got rofl. This is why psychopaths have always ruled the world, people are too easy to control. It's true that the decision was primarily for the overall reputation of Anet. But being one thing, however significant, doesn't exclude that there were other reasons and benefits from that decision. Cherry-picking the juiciest and most obvious one doesn't somehow demean that it was a necessary choice on most accounts. It is possible to make your company look good and get rid of the thugs attacking or cheering on the attacking of your customers, at the same time. The difference between "psychopaths" and Anet, is that Anet gives us entertainment we enjoy that we happily welcome into our lives. "psychopaths" on the other hand, like the one in particular, spread hate, negativity, toxicity, blame, and vastly bring down the intelligence of the others that support them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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