GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[hugo.4705]

..........

[omgitsbees.8137]

> @"Eternity Theory.5392" said:

> Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently.

>

>

 

Between this and the massive amount of people in Jessica Price's mentions celebrating her being fired, I am so done with ArenaNET and gamers. This community is amazingly toxic and gross.

[Voltekka.2375]

Its 2018, people are held accountable for their words and actions, what a surprise!

Also, in the feeling vs facts war, we all know who wins...

[Word Eater.6541]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

 

I'm not uninstalling GW2 just yet, but I think I will stop playing for a bit. I still can't understand how you would stand with hyperbolic attackers and not your own devs. They fucked up, sure, but god-damned you just emboldened an entire universe of trolls. That's who you are catering to. That's who you consider your community.

[omgitsbees.8137]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Its 2018, people are held accountable for their words and actions, what a surprise!

> Also, in the feeling vs facts war, we all know who wins...

 

More like only women are held accountable for their words and actions along with the actions of others. I never see men in the game industry being toxic and face consequences.

[Healix.5819]

> @"Xenon.4537" said:

> No, it absolutely *would* have been a problem either way. The games industry (especially the art side of it) absolutely requires that people be able to take criticism without blowing up. You simply can't function in a game studio if you are biting people's heads off when they offer feedback. Game development is a hugely collaborative process. If she was unable to accept criticism from her coworkers it would quickly create a toxic working environment. Everyone would be walking on eggshells around her constantly and talking behind her back about her bad attitude. It would break team moral and HR would just be waiting for a good reason to get rid of her.

 

You will never truly know the people you are working with. Just because someone acts a certain way on their own time doesn't mean they act that way when working professionally. In this case however, because she didn't keep her "personality" outside of work anonymous, it could have affected other employees that had to work with her if they found out, regardless of how she acted internally. If she was ever a problem internally however, she likely would have been fired earlier, especially considering she was a new hire and had only been there for roughly a year now. Simply put, there could be people far worse people working at ArenaNet, but they'll never be an issue because they're keeping it anonymous.

[thruine.8510]

> @"paintpixie.7398" said:

>

> You have no power. You tell yourself that you do, but that you are one of the "nice" powerful people, because it makes you feel good and you personally have character flaws that you want to attribute to everybody as a way of letting yourself off the hook for having them.

 

What a wonderful attempt at character assassination. Now, what I'm wondering is do you feel better? If I'm one of the "nice" ones, are you also?

[Eponet.4829]

> @"omgitsbees.8137" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > Its 2018, people are held accountable for their words and actions, what a surprise!

> > Also, in the feeling vs facts war, we all know who wins...

>

> More like only women are held accountable for their words and actions along with the actions of others. I never see men in the game industry being toxic and face consequences.

 

Look up David Crooks then,

[seinka.4823]

> @"Word Eater.6541" said:

>you just emboldened an entire universe of trolls.

 

...and with other action they would have emboldened an entire universe of other trolls. These days everything is about choosing which kind of trolls are the least dangerous - and such decisions can be quite hard.

[Eternity Theory.5392]

> @"Shoyoko.7309" said:

> > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said:

> > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently.

> >

> >

>

> Now you're just cherrypicking, the majority of the community expressed that they didn't expect her to be fired and espeically PF but none the less happy that Anet had taken action. If you scroll through the comments and even the twitter response, you would know that the community massively downvoted that comment and you can find many other comments like this are downvoted. The majority of the community in GW2 have been reasonable and sensible about this. Read the reddit post first before posting toxic things like this.

 

It's the firing that is the problem. I've already said that her initial comments were out of line and likely warranted action. ANet went overboard though, which is worse, because it emboldens the bigots in the community, who've been making their presence known on the subreddit and these forums. Most have the sense to be a bit less obvious than the person I linked, but things certainly haven't been "reasonable" here. This is a bad example and precedent to set, and it's clearly having detrimental effects on the community and encouraging its worse segments.

[Rococo.8347]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

Reading them will give you an idea as to what the kerflunkle is about.

 

I do have an idea about what is going on here and my posts are well thought out, if you had read them, you wouldn't have chosen to imply I had just accidentally wandered into a thread I knew nothing about

 

- ive read ALOT I was just mentioning I hadn't seen every single post from everyone involved, but seeing as you didnt engage with my points and the whole thing is just so depressing in general I think im just staying off social media for a while concerning GW2.

[Itzena.8452]

> @"Shoyoko.7309" said:

> > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said:

> > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently.

> >

> >

>

> The majority of the community in GW2 have been reasonable and sensible about this.

I work in a service industry. If our customers acted like the vocal, visible percentage of GW2 customers here and on r/GW2, we would - no joke - make a concerted effort to go out and find some new customers. The level of entitlement is unrealistic and unsustainable, and now the sole remaining founder of Arenanet has just thrown two of his team to the wolves because he wrongly thinks it will help. (He's actually just declared open season on anyone connected to Arenanet, but he probably won't realise that until Reddit brigades to get him fired at some point).

 

The customer is not always right.

[Loukious.7346]

@"Eternity Theory.5392" said:

 

> It's the firing that is the problem. I've already said that her initial comments were out of line and likely warranted action.

 

But this isn't her first time making comments that make ANet look bad. Look at her comment on TB's death. She could easily said "I didn't like him all that much but I'm sad to hear that he lost his fight to cancer" Instead it's " The kindest thing I can say is 'I'm glad he's no longer around to keep doing harm' "

[Faowri.4159]

> @"seinka.4823" said:

> > @"Faowri.4159" said:

> > * Yes, women in male-dominated fields face genuine issues relating specifically to their gender. This is not up for argument. Women deserve to be believed about their experiences. I don't care if you don't agree. I am a woman, I work with women, and we all know what we've seen.

>

> I work in male-dominated field for several years already and I have yet to see those 'genuine issues relating specifically to gender'. Except that it gets lonely sometimes... Or maybe it's a USA thing?

 

Sadly not, though I get the impression it's not quite as bad in the UK. Better employment law. I also work in a male-dominated field. Now, I've been fortunate enough to have some very supportive male mentors during my career, but I have also been unfortunate enough to see the other end of the spectrum, too. I'm lucky enough at the minute to be in a team where there are other senior technical women (I know exactly what you mean about it being lonely!), but in many ways having this balance has also thrown a big spotlight on some of the gender issues seen in IT in particular.

 

Of course, I've had jobs where I haven't had any issues at all. That's always great! But it doesn't mean other women aren't out there dealing with this background radiation of commonly reported experiences.

 

> @"Miss Lana.5276" said:

> > @"Faowri.4159" said:

> > Women deserve to be believed about their experiences.

>

> This opens up a massive can of worms for other discussions. Should we be trusted purely because we are women? Should we be trusted if we have no evidence and the other party does? Does being a woman give more points for validity over evidence? Personally I don't think so, but recently I've been seeing a lot of people thinking that way.

>

> I think there's a bit of give and take here, but considering JP's history with overreacting I certainly wouldn't just blindly believe her about anything she has to say.

 

"Women deserve to be believed about their experiences" is not the same as "women are always right". 'Cause we're not xD but when lots of different women talk about certain common, shared experiences, and are constantly dismissed and mocked about them, it's pretty tiring. See the Weinstein saga for the most recent instance of that sorry mess. Can individual women still lie? Sure. Not much I can do about that. Doesn't render other people's experiences invalid, though.

 

I generally operate on a 'human beings deserve to be listened to and taken seriously' principle, and it costs me nothing out of my day to consider how, say, a person of colour's experiences might be completely different to my own, and to listen to them when they tell me so. Even if there are ever occasions that I disagree, nobody benefits from this hostile mudslinging that passes for conversation online these days.

 

I'm pretty mellow generally though, haha.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Rococo.8347" said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> Reading them will give you an idea as to what the kerflunkle is about.

>

> I do have an idea about what is going on here and my posts are well thought out, if you had read them, you wouldn't have chosen to imply I had just accidentally wandered into a thread I knew nothing about

>

> - ive read ALOT I was just mentioning I hadn't seen every single post from everyone involved, but seeing as you didnt engage with my points and the whole thing is just so depressing in general I think im just staying off social media for a while concerning GW2.

 

You said

 

>Ive given up trying to piece together the entire conversation as the vast majority of comments across the web only show certain sections

 

If you don’t know the entire conversation in the sequence that it was made then you’re not making an informed decision as too what exactly what was said. My bad if I misunderstood you.

 

 

[Woody.4628]

Props to Mo, tricky situation handled well.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Itzena.8452" said:

> > @"Shoyoko.7309" said:

> > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said:

> > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The majority of the community in GW2 have been reasonable and sensible about this.

> I work in a service industry. If our customers acted like the vocal, visible percentage of GW2 customers here and on r/GW2, we would - no joke - make a concerted effort to go out and find some new customers. The level of entitlement is unrealistic and unsustainable, and now the sole remaining founder of Arenanet has just thrown two of his team to the wolves because he wrongly thinks it will help. (He's actually just declared open season on anyone connected to Arenanet, but he probably won't realise that until Reddit brigades to get him fired at some point).

>

> The customer is not always right.

 

I don't know in what kind of service industry you work, but I'd suggest checking your contract again. In mine, it is clearly stated that while representing the company I should behave responsibly.

This isn't too much asked from an employee. I'm sorry but this is pretty standard and sustainable.

You can blame a community for having bad apples all you want, you wouldn't be wrong that there are bad apples, but it would have stayed on reddit and you wouldn't have many people here defending Anet and MO's decision if it was just that. Remember this community is quick to jump on Anet throat usually, they proved it with the cheating banwave and microtranscations drama.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Loukious.7346" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

>

> > This is the exact same ridiculous kitten.

> > Dev said something, reddit blow kitten out of proportion, dev got fired.

> >

> > And now some people are celebrating this as some kind of victory?! Two people that got (even if temporary) their life ruined...

> > Grow the kitten up!

>

> She took criticism that a community member had at a full post she made on an AMA and re-posted it to twitter. He made a long well thought out post in response. It was not even a full criticism. He agreed with some points and disagreed with others. Instead of sitting down and saying "Hey your response to me is full of things I don't think are valid and here's why" She went straight to "I'm a female game Dev and this man is being sexist to me". And when others pointed out that his criticism was valid (both male and female gamers). She doubled down and attacked others saying they were attacking her for no reason. Now if this was her FIRST foray into being center stage of a kitten show I would be in agreement firing was a bit harsh (Think in the case of PF it is). But in the case of JP she deserved it, not only for this but also her cheering of the death of Total Biscuit. A man that may have ruffled feathers but he called out shady practices.

>

>

She said someone was trying to teach it how to do her job, which while being a bit rude was the truth.

Just because someone feels insulted gives a reason to start a revolution to get the dev fired? Problem is everyone, those devs included, are oversensitive.

At the end of the day, it's just words from a random to a random, who the hell cares and why the hell should they care?!

If she was ANet's PR, yeah that would be bad, since one of their role is to deal with fans, but she isn't.

I don't know how Total Biscuit is relevant to this. To prove that she is not a good person? Let it be, as long as she did a good job at the company and apparently she did.

 

 

 

> @"Alfador.7649" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > This reminds me of a situation that happen with the Football Club (soccer for NA) I'm a fan of.

> > So we had one of the best presidents if not the best president in the history of the club, we had the best year in the history of the club in which we won out every single championship in sports except in football.

> >

> > That president wrote something on facebook criticizing the football team, saying they could have done much better in one particular match.

> > Media blown out that statement, some unfortunate events unfolded, president got fired by the members (don't know the word in english, fans that pay monthly to the club).

> >

> > This is the exact same ridiculous kitten.

> > Dev said something, reddit blow kitten out of proportion, dev got fired.

> >

> > And now some people are celebrating this as some kind of victory?! Two people that got (even if temporary) their life ruined...

> > Grow the kitten up!

> >

>

> So that football coach swore at people, accused them of being bigots and personally attacked everyone who tried to be a part of a conversation on the internet? No? Ok so they're not similar at all and you just brought it up because you're a huge fan of false equivalences. got it.

 

Apparently no, you didn't get it.

Not coach but president (which makes everything more ridiculous). He did worse, he attacked his own players on a social network.

They're similar and already said in which way, someone states something, someone else blow kitten out of proportion and gets on a sjw crusade to get someone fired.

 

 

 

[Eternity Theory.5392]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > @"omgitsbees.8137" said:

> > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said:

> > > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > This does not represent everyone on reddit, twitter, or the gw community or anything.

> > > Would people PLEASE stop talking in the name of communities?

> > >

> >

> > Ehhhhh i'm just going to go ahead and say it does. Judging by the massive amount of tweets and reddit posts im seeing celebrating Jessica Price being fired. Reddit is already a gigantic cesspool filled with horrible people.

> >

> >

>

> Saying it was the necessary thing to do doesn't mean you like the outcome.

> Not even everyone who posted on reddit agree with "celebrating it" (I certainly don't)

> And certainly not everyone agrees with this idiot saying "we can fire everyone". It is absolutely stupid and kind of disgusting attempt to abuse a bad situation.

> As always, radicalism from one side just brings more radicalism from the other side.

 

Your arguments amount to "not literally 100% of the community is bad, ergo nothing is wrong and the complaints are fallacious". That's absurd. You don't need 100%, 50%, or even 10% of the community to be problematic for there to be a problem. Given how loud and vicious bigots, Gamergaters (but I repeat myself), and the like can be, encouraging them in *any* form is a bad thing and will have detrimental, outward-spiraling effects on the community.

[Shoyoko.7309]

> @"Eternity Theory.5392" said:

> > @"Shoyoko.7309" said:

> > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said:

> > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Now you're just cherrypicking, the majority of the community expressed that they didn't expect her to be fired and especially PF but none the less happy that Anet had taken action. If you scroll through the comments and even the twitter response, you would know that the community massively downvoted that comment and you can find many other comments like this are downvoted. The majority of the community in GW2 have been reasonable and sensible about this. Read the reddit post first before posting toxic things like this.

>

> It's the firing that is the problem. I've already said that her initial comments were out of line and likely warranted action. ANet went overboard though, which is worse because it emboldens the bigots in the community, who've been making their presence known on the subreddit and these forums. Most have the sense to be a bit less obvious than the person I linked, but things certainly haven't been "reasonable" here. This is a bad example and precedent to set, and it's clearly having detrimental effects on the community and encouraging its worse segments.

 

The community voicing their concerns about 2 devs who were disrespectful, unreasonable and dismissive of not one but two content creators plus also lashing out any other potential players is reasonable. The community asking for a response from anet is reasonable. Fact is, everyone was sad to hear that JP said all that disrespectful stuff after she said an amazing piece on mmo character design only because someone wanted to provide feedback on an alternate idea who **also applauded her for the amazing thread!** There was no intention of malice, superiority complex or sexism crap.

The one is setting the bad example is you and other people out there stereotyping the rest of the community all because of a few comments you just happened to saw. Please be diligent to read the rest of everyone's comments before you conclude.

 

The forum did not over-react, this was not ok, no matter if you saw deroir's response as sexist or not, you don't stoop lower and attack. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Ungrak.5439]

tyvm

 

Thanks Mike

[Rococo.8347]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

 

>

> If you don’t know the entire conversation in the sequence that it was made then you’re not making an informed decision as too what exactly what was said. My bad if I misunderstood you.

>

> Just STOP with the implying ive not made an 'informed' decision just because you don't agree with it - IF you read my posts you could see ive read around, but no you dont want to read and engage with my points do you?

 

Incidentally the link you sent missed out at least 2 comments from Deroir that I recall so no not a 'full take' atall.

 

I was making a point about piecing together twitter convo's from several accounts meaning a couple of comments may have been missed.

Like I said - you fail to take on board any of my points and continue implying I don't know what im talking about and need 'advice'

 

sounds very familiar to me.....logging out now so don't bother goading further.

[Eternity Theory.5392]

> @"Shoyoko.7309" said:

> > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said:

> > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said:

> > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said:

> > > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Now you're just cherrypicking, the majority of the community expressed that they didn't expect her to be fired and especially PF but none the less happy that Anet had taken action. If you scroll through the comments and even the twitter response, you would know that the community massively downvoted that comment and you can find many other comments like this are downvoted. The majority of the community in GW2 have been reasonable and sensible about this. Read the reddit post first before posting toxic things like this.

> >

> > It's the firing that is the problem. I've already said that her initial comments were out of line and likely warranted action. ANet went overboard though, which is worse because it emboldens the bigots in the community, who've been making their presence known on the subreddit and these forums. Most have the sense to be a bit less obvious than the person I linked, but things certainly haven't been "reasonable" here. This is a bad example and precedent to set, and it's clearly having detrimental effects on the community and encouraging its worse segments.

>

> The community voicing their concerns about 2 devs who were disrespectful, unreasonable and dismissive of not one but two content creators plus also lashing out any other potential players is reasonable. The community asking for a response from anet is reasonable. Fact is, everyone was sad to hear that JP said all that disrespectful stuff after she said an amazing piece on mmo character design only because someone wanted to provide feedback on an alternate idea who **also applauded her for the amazing thread! **There was no intention of malice, superiority complex or sexism crap.

> The one is setting the bad example is you and other people out there stereotyping the rest of the community all because of a few comments you just happened to saw. Please be diligent to read the rest of everyone's comments before you conclude.

>

> The forum did not over-react, this was not ok, no matter if you saw deroir's response as sexist or not, you don't stoop lower and attack. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

I'm not stereotyping the entirety of the community. I'm saying that there are bad parts *of* the community that will take this as a sign of ANet supporting them. Which is evidently the case. You're not engaging with what I'm actually saying.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"omgitsbees.8137" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > Its 2018, people are held accountable for their words and actions, what a surprise!

> > Also, in the feeling vs facts war, we all know who wins...

>

> More like only women are held accountable for their words and actions along with the actions of others. I never see men in the game industry being toxic and face consequences.

See, that is actual sexism.

And I can say it with 100% certainty, and you know why? Because there were two people fired for their action: A woman and a man.

 

People are held accountable for their behavior if they give their company a bad reputation. Thanks to that, we have Phil Spencer at the head of Xbox instead of a guy who had no respect for his community.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Rococo.8347" said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

>

> >

> > If you don’t know the entire conversation in the sequence that it was made then you’re not making an informed decision as too what exactly what was said. My bad if I misunderstood you.

> >

> > Just STOP with the implying ive not made an 'informed' decision just because you don't agree with it - IF you read my posts you could see ive read around, but no you dont want to read and engage with my points do you?

>

> Incidentally the link you sent missed out at least 2 comments from Deroir that I recall so no not a 'full take' atall.

>

> I was making a point about piecing together twitter convo's from several accounts meaning a couple of comments may have been missed.

> Like I said - you fail to take on board any of my points and continue implying I don't know what im talking about and need 'advice'

>

> sounds very familiar to me.....logging out now so don't bother goading further.

 

When someone starts a conversation with me by saying they don’t know all that was said and then proceed to give their opinion of the matter based on their partial knowledge then I’m not going to engage in a discussion of it until they do see the whole conversation. I feel that’s reasonable.

 

Goodbye.