Ephemiel.5694 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Drogot.4629" said: > > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said: > > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. > > > > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you. > > > > Mo > > **I do not support this. ** > > I think to fire someone over such a minor infraction and then giving such a non-Statement is very unprofessional by MO > > I don't want to discuss this, as this whole situation makes me sick to my stomach. But I still wanted to say that I do not support this. Notice that yet another brand new account that has never posted suddenly pops up defending her and saying they don't support Mike O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > Alot has been said about this so I'm just going to summarise my feelings on the matter. > > People keep citing JP's lack of professionalism in her replies, without realising that ruining someone's career is just as unprofessional. You can't teach people lessons by condemning them, it just boxes them into their bad behavior even further. > > ArenaNet did not take themselves "above and beyond" the events that transpired, they got down in the dirt to play around in the mud with the employee and the customer who were doing the moral equivalent of playing slap. If you think this exchange was "toxic" then you have no idea how horrible the world (and people) really are. I've seen people have worse things said to them over dinnertime, and gamers tend to be absolutely horrific to developers especially, sometimes even sending death threats over balance changes. > > What many people herald as an achievement--firing two employees--is often regarded to be a last resort, because no matter what you think about a person, replacing their talent and what they brought to the game is not easy, and its actions like this that lead to product failure > > I'm not going to try to explain it in and out.. I will just say, if you are a gamer, and not a game-developer, you cannot understand, because you don't live the life that they do. Even without things like sexism causing trouble, the games industry is terrible with a high amount of stress from all directions, especially with it being the industry with the highest amount of "crunching" (work marathoning). > > And the fact that ArenaNet would take these actions and harm the future of the game to solve a single PR disaster that had no effect on the game itself, shows that they don't really care about the customers at all--and the people applauding them for caring about customers when now they will have to invest alot of time and resources into replacing what has been lost just goes to show that those customers do not have any clue about how game development works, or the long-term consequences of this. > > It wasn't a heroic action, it wasn't professional, and it cost your (and my) money to fire them. We pay for it all. One of the job duties of management is dismissing employees whose, behavior, actions or performance are not aligned with company expectations. Another job duty, for someone who runs a company, can be to make public staements regarding public furor regarding the company. By definition of his position MO's actions were professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponytheguardian.7439 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > There's already some direct, poor side effects that have come about due to the firings emboldening those who want to harass women in the gaming industry. I've just read twitter chains from 2 female devs. One of them had someone write to her boss spinning a story about her being toxic and how she should be fired. The other actually had someone create a change.org petition for exactly the same reason. > > I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better. > This is exactly what I meant [when I said](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/591726#Comment_591726 "when I said"): > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: >[...]He's now only telling the mobs in internet that it's a viable way to get people who you don't like kicked out of their jobs simply by making them act somewhat negative way and then cry about it to their employers. Mike might have saved his precious PR for the time being, but his actions probably bite back at some point. > > He. Catered. To. The. Mobs. Not for the players. And now message is out.[...] Now I hope MO knows how his "swift justice" has "contributed" to the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 The other issue, which people seem to be ignoring, is that this does nothing at all to help promote the cause of feminism. There's nothing in feminist doctrine that says calling people kittens is required . If a man did the same thing, you'd call him a kitten. But it's a woman who has likely been bullied so her behavior is somehow justified. People who believe in feminism (and I do), will absolutely be more sympathetic generally to someone who they say as having been bullied and harrassed in the past. That said, people on the fence, they're not likely to be that sympathetic. This doesn't help sell feminism to anyone who didn't already believe in it. It hurts the cause. If JP is trying to act as some sort of ambassador for women's rights, I'd say that if I treated customers that way, even my off hours, publicly,. I'd have gotten fired. It's not gender related, and calling it so just calls into question the whole idea of feminism, which doesn't help anyone. Normally I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but this is just too much. Whether you're a man or a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceares.2519 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 After all of this, and how it states today ... i've been reading alot of this stuff, been watching many explaining videos ... i'm pretty disappointed ... of the internet as a whole. Has the Internet forgotten the difference between truth and lie? Does the internet no longer know the difference between journalism and gossip? Do we have recently the Internet of the naughty uneducated children, who may lie as a Dev that the bars bend or drive as a mob whole companies to ruin and all this just to be seen "I'm important!" How many JPs are outthere, and how few MOs are left to keep the those JPs in check? The Independent Game Developers Association demands clear rules of conduct in social media. Was this intented, the original goal of the event? It is in summary disgusting, and the Attention of the IGDA comes much to late for many destroyed existences, and some people say its the "clash of cultures", which takes place on the internet these days, maybe i think we should shut down the whole thing and start it new, with more restrictions i.e. childs cant speak as adults through fake-accounts anymore. Age-restrictions to several areas, it cant be that childrens are driving firmations into ruin with their lies. Ask those most hateful ppl how old they really are, and ask the Devs how adult they really are. I mean the Internet was created to bring people together and not to fight against each other. What i really see these days is a massive abuse of the internet, all the resources (material, energy and time) wasted for manifesting the own ego, to shun ppl, to destroy firmations and much much more - do you know this phenomenon in summary is called Civil-WAR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > Now I hope MO knows how his "swift justice" has "contributed" to the industry. Please see my post here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/597520/#Comment_597520 You are overestimating MO's "contribution" to the industry. There have been numerous people that got fired over social media over the years. There has even been one **man** that was fired just one month ago. Keep telling yourself that MO's decision "changed" the industry and negatively affected it as a whole, while in the real world it was a small ripple in the ocean. JP getting fired wasn't more important than all the other firings, but the mindless drones that read media outlets like Kotaku and Polygon that love to spin stories will have you believe otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogot.4629 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > Harassing and attacking customers of your buisness is a minor infraction now? In what world? Its exactly the kind of behaviour that gets people fired. > > We can all get snappy sometimes and I still wonder what would have happened if she had simply apologized to Deroir for publicly deriding him and left it at that, but its most definetly **not** a minor infraction. > > MO has a longer response I saw posted on Polygon if you want to check it put, but the incredibly biased article is ridiculous otherwise. I advice taking a look on youtube and Yongyea videos on this. Oh boy. Her I am discussing this... 1. A single Insult is not Harassment. Harassment would be if she put pressure on Deroirs employer to fire him. 2. You say it's not a minor infraction. So let me ask you: What's the worst that Deroir has to endure a month from now? The two worst things that I can think of are that he feels kind of guilty for his role in this (from what I've seen he shouldnt tough) or he gets vilified by a certain part of the games media/community and end up in a similar position like TotalBiscuit. In both of these cases the fault lies more with ANet or the Community than with JP 3. Should JP have apologized to Deroir? Yeah I think she should have. Deroir didn't cause her outburst. He was just the last person who explained her job to her and for that he got the full force of the anger. He should get an apology for that. But in a situation where you are constantly atacked it is hard to give such an apology. I bet some backup and mediation from ANet would have helped a lot with that. Instead she got fired after 2 days. 4. It took them only two days to decide to fire an employee. It took them 3-4 days to admit that lootbox Mounts where a bad idea (altough not taking them back or fireing someonfe for it). Does that not seem a bit inconsistent to you? MO says they didn't fire her because of the community backlash. But do you really believe that? Sure. Someone might point out that there might have been other problems with JP we don't know about. But there were 2 people fired. Seems like a bit of a coincidence to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponytheguardian.7439 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > Now I hope MO knows how his "swift justice" has "contributed" to the industry. > > Please see my post here: > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/597520/#Comment_597520 > You are overestimating MO's "contribution" to the industry. There have been numerous people that got fired over social media over the years. There has even been one **man** that was fired just one month ago. Keep telling yourself that MO's decision "changed" the industry and negatively affected it as a whole, while in the real world it was a small ripple in the ocean. JP getting fired wasn't more important than all the other firings, but the mindless drones that read media outlets like Kotaku and Polygon that love to spin stories will have you believe otherwise. I know people have burned their fingers multiple times in social media. I also know that multiple corporations have added their own weapons in this "battle royale". Why do you think this is an issue I'm *the most worried* about, over some petty immoral tweets? MO threw one more weapon to the arena, or atleast enhanced something that already was there when there was a reddit post saying that it's now possible to get almost anyone fired by the mobs with using same "tactics" that was used in JP's case. MO's actions certainly didn't do anything *good* or profitable to **us** who enjoy having good developers, good publishers, good games, good [insert your preference here] around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > Now I hope MO knows how his "swift justice" has "contributed" to the industry. > > > > Please see my post here: > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/597520/#Comment_597520 > > You are overestimating MO's "contribution" to the industry. There have been numerous people that got fired over social media over the years. There has even been one **man** that was fired just one month ago. Keep telling yourself that MO's decision "changed" the industry and negatively affected it as a whole, while in the real world it was a small ripple in the ocean. JP getting fired wasn't more important than all the other firings, but the mindless drones that read media outlets like Kotaku and Polygon that love to spin stories will have you believe otherwise. > I know people have burned their fingers multiple times in social media. I also know that multiple corporations have added their own weapons in this "battle royale". Why do you think this is an issue I'm *the most worried* about, over some petty immoral tweets? > > MO threw one more weapon to the arena, or atleast enhanced something that already was there when there was a reddit post saying that it's now possible to get almost anyone fired by the mobs with using same "tactics" that was used in JP's case. MO's actions certainly didn't do anything *good* or profitable to **us** who enjoy having good developers, good publishers, good games, good [insert your preference here] around. I would have rather not seen the two devs fired but I disagree with your claim of general certainty. I think that demonstrating consequences for unprofessional and abusive behavior on the part of developers is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > I know people have burned their fingers multiple times in social media. I also know that multiple corporations have added their own weapons in this "battle royale". Why do you think this is an issue I'm *the most worried* about, over some petty immoral tweets? > > MO threw one more weapon to the arena, or atleast enhanced something that already was there when there was a reddit post saying that it's now possible to get almost anyone fired by the mobs with using same "tactics" that was used in JP's case. MO's actions certainly didn't do anything *good* or profitable to **us** who enjoy having good developers, good publishers, good games, good [insert your preference here] around. What tactics were used to fire JP? JP wasn't fired because there was a reddit thread, she was fired because of her own posts and actions. If those actions never happened she'd still be working for Arenanet. MO's actions showed us that they care about their community, and when some member of their development team is assaulting members of the community, it reflects badly on the entire company. It's why people get fired for what they post on social media in the first place. > @"Drogot.4629" said: > 3. Should JP have apologized to Deroir? Yeah I think she should have. Deroir didn't cause her outburst. He was just the last person who explained her job to her and for that he got the full force of the anger. He should get an apology for that. But in a situation where you are constantly atacked it is hard to give such an apology. I bet some backup and mediation from ANet would have helped a lot with that. Instead she got fired after 2 days. I've been working on website development for many years. I've been told how to do my job nearly every single one of those years at least once. If I lashed out at my customers like JP did, then I'd be out of clients. She wasn't constantly attacked, she was ATTACKING even more, of course when someone is hell bent on their own sick ways, it's hard to give an apology, when someone is always on the offensive it's hard to think. > 4. It took them only two days to decide to fire an employee. It took them 3-4 days to admit that lootbox Mounts where a bad idea (altough not taking them back or fireing someonfe for it). Does that not seem a bit inconsistent to you? MO says they didn't fire her because of the community backlash. But do you really believe that? Why would they fire someone for the lootbox mounts? And yes I do believe that, in fact my belief is that she should've been fired a month ago. > Sure. Someone might point out that there might have been other problems with JP we don't know about. But there were 2 people fired. Seems like a bit of a coincidence to me. Better coincidence is that there was a Living World team restructuring right before they fired these 2 employees. Maybe someone had it coming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Drogot.4629" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > Harassing and attacking customers of your buisness is a minor infraction now? In what world? Its exactly the kind of behaviour that gets people fired. > > > > We can all get snappy sometimes and I still wonder what would have happened if she had simply apologized to Deroir for publicly deriding him and left it at that, but its most definetly **not** a minor infraction. > > > > MO has a longer response I saw posted on Polygon if you want to check it put, but the incredibly biased article is ridiculous otherwise. I advice taking a look on youtube and Yongyea videos on this. > > Oh boy. Her I am discussing this... > > 1. A single Insult is not Harassment. Harassment would be if she put pressure on Deroirs employer to fire him. > 2. You say it's not a minor infraction. So let me ask you: What's the worst that Deroir has to endure a month from now? The two worst things that I can think of are that he feels kind of guilty for his role in this (from what I've seen he shouldnt tough) or he gets vilified by a certain part of the games media/community and end up in a similar position like TotalBiscuit. In both of these cases the fault lies more with ANet or the Community than with JP > 3. Should JP have apologized to Deroir? Yeah I think she should have. Deroir didn't cause her outburst. He was just the last person who explained her job to her and for that he got the full force of the anger. He should get an apology for that. But in a situation where you are constantly atacked it is hard to give such an apology. I bet some backup and mediation from ANet would have helped a lot with that. Instead she got fired after 2 days. > 4. It took them only two days to decide to fire an employee. It took them 3-4 days to admit that lootbox Mounts where a bad idea (altough not taking them back or fireing someonfe for it). Does that not seem a bit inconsistent to you? MO says they didn't fire her because of the community backlash. But do you really believe that? > > Sure. Someone might point out that there might have been other problems with JP we don't know about. But there were 2 people fired. Seems like a bit of a coincidence to me. > Not a single insult. After the first public and humiliating shut down for the sin of asking a question there was >like, the next rando [kitten]hat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me--as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a [kitten] DECADE, I have never heard of it--is getting instablocked. PSA. This was several hours after she had received two apologies and he had left yet she continued to attack him, which is bullying. Then a second post where she makes a sexist post putting down men’s feeling. if a man had made a post about “hurt womanfeels” he would have been shot down for sexism but apparently it’s ok for a woman to denigrate and minimize men’s feelings. >Since we've got a lot of hurt manfeels today, lemme make something clear: this is my feed. I'm not on the clock here. I'm not your emotional courtesan just because I'm a dev. Don't expect me to pretend to like you here. As too what Deroir might endure a month from now none can say. But he has been accused of sexist mansplaining by the gamer sites and that’s going follow him for the rest of his life. As an aside, I was amused by the disclaimer on the bottom of the article I got these tweets from which reads “The Mary Sue has a strict comment policy that forbids, but is not limited to, personal insults toward anyone, hate speech, and trolling.” As the article discusses her personal insults towards Deroir and sexist remarks towards men, yet finds them ok. Edit: grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogot.4629 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > Lol.. you don't want to discuss it cos it makes you sick, but not enough to come to the forum and share your opinion.. lacking any detailed reasoning as it does... makes sense. > TBH, ANET / MO didn't actually have to put out any kind of statement, be thankful the statement was released instead of reading it through JP's continuing doubling, no tripling, no wait quadrupling down on her unprofessional bad mouthing. > I see only a senior figure of a company attempting to keep his customers aware that the business as a whole has taken a very serious view on something which not only outraged the community, but could of had a serious issue on the company revenues goes forward, thus placing other innocent victims within the company at risk of.. ya know, not having a job either. > Sure you can have an opinion and it differs from mine and many others here and that's perfectly fine, I respect that... what JP did however, was take a slight differing of opinion extremely badly to which she immediately set about disrespecting the mouths that feed her in a totally unprofessional way and then intensified that with her own twisted divisive narrative.. not something I see either ANET or PF for that matter doing here. That is acutally the point why I did post here even tough this makes me sick. *Edit* The following post ist pretty bad. I tried to write it while sorting my thoughts. Because of that I generalize a lot and reduce the whole thing to basically two sides/arguments. I will leave the original Text below so that you can see how stupid a was. There is actually to things I wanted to say: 1. Initially I didn't want to engage with this thread because the whole situation agitates and depresses me. But I felt that I should engage because if everybody who felt like me didn't join the discussion it would look to someone from the outside like there where less people disagreing with the firing. 2. The second point is the really stupid one. I argued that no one will change their mind because the two sides are so different. This is obviously stupid becaus there are a multitude of opinion about this subject and while the two extremes might never agree, there still might be someone who was swayed in on or the other direction. *End of Edit* Because you claim the community was outraged about this. But most of the community didn' even know this happened. I only found out about this afte JP got fired and only because I follow certain people on twitter and was looking at the right time. I don't know how much of the community has participated in this and i don't know the opinion of all those community members who haven't participated in this. All I know is that not all of the community agrees with this decision and that I certainly don't. I don't want to post here because it's very frustrating. You know why? Because we already lost. No matter what I write here, no matter how much I do or do not own you in this discussion, there are still two people who lost their job. And I won't even change someones mind about this, because my argument basically would boil down to the fact, that if you celebrate this, you are a bad person. No one is going to just change their mind to that. We are not arguing about facts here. We are arguing about feelings. And to get to those feelings we would have to go trough a books worth of argument and counter argument to get to the conclusion that we disagree fundamentally about some things. I believe there are more people who have a similar opinion to mine who don't post here. More people than would support your celebration of this. I can't proof that. But that is my reason to post here. To make sure this thread does not just represent people who agree with this decision by ANet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorneredLamp.7809 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Drogot.4629" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > Harassing and attacking customers of your buisness is a minor infraction now? In what world? Its exactly the kind of behaviour that gets people fired. > > > > We can all get snappy sometimes and I still wonder what would have happened if she had simply apologized to Deroir for publicly deriding him and left it at that, but its most definetly **not** a minor infraction. > > > > MO has a longer response I saw posted on Polygon if you want to check it put, but the incredibly biased article is ridiculous otherwise. I advice taking a look on youtube and Yongyea videos on this. > > Oh boy. Her I am discussing this... > > 1. A single Insult is not Harassment. Harassment would be if she put pressure on Deroirs employer to fire him. > 2. You say it's not a minor infraction. So let me ask you: What's the worst that Deroir has to endure a month from now? The two worst things that I can think of are that he feels kind of guilty for his role in this (from what I've seen he shouldnt tough) or he gets vilified by a certain part of the games media/community and end up in a similar position like TotalBiscuit. In both of these cases the fault lies more with ANet or the Community than with JP > 3. Should JP have apologized to Deroir? Yeah I think she should have. Deroir didn't cause her outburst. He was just the last person who explained her job to her and for that he got the full force of the anger. He should get an apology for that. But in a situation where you are constantly atacked it is hard to give such an apology. I bet some backup and mediation from ANet would have helped a lot with that. Instead she got fired after 2 days. > 4. It took them only two days to decide to fire an employee. It took them 3-4 days to admit that lootbox Mounts where a bad idea (altough not taking them back or fireing someonfe for it). Does that not seem a bit inconsistent to you? MO says they didn't fire her because of the community backlash. But do you really believe that? > > Sure. Someone might point out that there might have been other problems with JP we don't know about. But there were 2 people fired. Seems like a bit of a coincidence to me. > A single comment? Why are you disingenuous? She's made plenty of other comments to another community figure, and there were no insane 'alt right' attacks on her before the firing. You are simply defending her because that's what your bias tells you to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge.4180 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Thobek.1730" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > > > I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better. > > > > > > > More like, I really hope Jessica Price sees what is happening reflects on how she could of handled the situation better. > > They both should reflect, there's fault on all sides IMO. How so? This situation was entirely caused by Price's unwillingness to respond in a reasonable fashion to a polite attempt at discussion by Deroir. Price is the one who went into attack mode first, she is the one who made this about gender first, and she was doing the very harassing she claims to be so critical of. And she did this repeatedly - not a single lapse of judgement, but comment after comment after comment, all from a public Twitter account where she willingly advertised her employment with ArenaNet while using Guild Wars 2 as an example in her discussion. It's not a stretch to suggest Price's unprofessional behavior in this exchange was potentially damaging to both the image of ArenaNet and Guild Wars 2. If I had been employed at ArenaNet and witnessed Price's behavior, I would have been extremely embarrassed by the association. Did Price not stop to think how her unwarranted actions would reflect on the rest of her team? Or did she simply not care, because doubling down on her inappropriate behavior was infinitely more important to her? Going by her interviews following her dismissal I'm beginning to suspect the latter, as she seems determined to cause as much damage as possible to ArenaNet (and this game we all enjoy) on her way out. I'm not sure how you can fault ArenaNet in this case, unless you want to critique their decision to hire Price in the first place. Sure, it's reasonable to question whether the firing was overkill, or wonder if ArenaNet needs a more crystal-clear policy regarding community interaction on social media, but in either case we'd be speculating - we'll never have all the information surrounding their decision. Currently Price is the only one offering more details, and her former employer is not likely to expand on that any further than they already have (nor should they, which is an expectation Price seems all too happy to exploit, essentially continuing to attack without fear of further retaliation). But given Price's apparent predisposition to exaggerate, twist reality, and create drama where none exists, I find very little of the information she offers to be of any real value beyond negatively reflecting on her character. I just don't understand the anger against ArenaNet in this situation. Between ArenaNet, Deroir, and Price, two of those entities were the victims in this fiasco, and none of those victims is Price. It is unfortunate that she is now dealing with unemployment; that can be a hard blow to anyone's life. But let's not lose sight of the fact that she 100% created the mess that resulted in her removal. I would like to think the silver lining here is that she'll be more conscious of her behavior and a better person going forward, but after seeing her recent interviews that doesn't seem very likely. To hear Price talk, she was practically perfect in all of this - everyone else failed, everyone else is at fault, this is totally a bias issue, and everyone agrees with her except the fake bots - a narcissistic personality disorder that reminds me of another embarrassing figure who frequently makes headlines. Perhaps that is why so many are reacting negatively to yet another individual behaving that way. The cup floweth over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Trejgon.2809 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"Twyn.7320" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said: > > > > > > > > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females > > > > > > > > > females get told how to do their job better all the time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem). > > > > > > > > > > > > Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games"). > > > > > > > > > > > > Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white). > > > > > > > > > > my comment was based on what Draco said "most of the people gained respect from anet". As the story here is classic misogyny and most the people think this is okay i can only rule them are reactionary males. It also confirms my experience of playing online for about 15 years. Not sure if we have the same idea in mind but there is constant sexism (and other forms of oppressing ) in the chat, like 24/7 - and yes, in every game i've played. > > > > > > > > How about instead of labelling everyone that feels that this is the right decision as 'reactionary males', which in itself is sexist, as I'm not a reactionary or male, thank you, you could start assessing why it's not the right decision. Provide some points rather than throwing insults at a wall and hoping that some of them stick. In this instance, you're not making the debate any better. > > > > > > > > The story here isn't classic misogyny at all, it's the rational response to an employee sabotaging the company's business. Remove gender from the equation, despite the hypocrisy in the person's views. Is it okay for an employee to start a witch hunt on two affiliates because of disagreements? No. What did she do? She shot the two affiliates down for valid criticism and publicly set them up to be witch-hunted by her followers. That's not professional at all, and the moment that she put 'ArenaNet Narrative Team' in her bio is the moment that the profile turned from private/personal to public. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's how consumerism works. > > > > > > > > As for sexism in gaming, does it exist? Obviously. It works all ways, as does racism, homophobia, being heterosexual, transphobia, all of the categories that we have, someone will be offensive to someone else, using any part of their identity. To ignore that it happens to white people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to straight people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to males is ignorance, and so on. > > > > > > > > Also, I don't know where you're getting representation statistics from, but it's actually impossible to measure this. For this to work, you'd need every company to agree to share player information to cross-reference whether the same players are playing in different games and whether they're male or female. All studies with gender statistics always state: 'From a sample of 1,000 people or another arbitrary number'. That sample size is always too small, so gaming companies have adapted to view it as basically 50/50 or 52/48 in favour of males or females, depending on the genre. > > > > > > > > In terms of game development, females are being equally represented through the production of narratives. See games such as Gears of War 5, Tomb Raider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us 2, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Star Wars Battlefront 2, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (the demo was shown with a female for corporate reasons), Hellblade, Nier: Automata, Gravity Rush 2, Battlefield 5 (War Stories). I appreciate that you've had individual experiences across 15 years, but so has everyone. Have I been told to go to a kitchen? Yah, obviously. What did I say? 'Go back to your garage.' Gasp, I was sexist back! Suddenly, they stopped, because they found it all 'weak memes'. Well, there we go, crisis averted. Thick skin rules out. > > > > > > > > Could there be more female-focused narratives? Yah, definitely. Do I want them to force representation down my throat? No, because they always make bad narratives. A story that's made on the grounds of political activism always fails, and damages the credibility of the movement that they're trying to support. If you disagree, you do you, but don't throw every critic under the bus because they don't share your views, unless you have evidence to state otherwise. <3 > > > > > > cheering on a female losing her job is reactionary, regardless of her actions as it doesn't solve the problem (maybe for anet temporarily). > > > > > > it's very misogynist as in this context the male managers have set the standards, so regardless of if it hits their male oriented business or does damage to it. also she is the one being targeted the most and not this peter, people have decided who should be bullied most when the consequences for them were the same before the hunt. > > > > > > > I have no idea what you are smoking bro at this point but I'd advise you to change dealer... > > > > it's another typical reactionary myth that "smoking" makes a person incapable of thinking straight it ain't about reactionary-whatevers it was remark that was supposed to make a point that you are spurting alot of nonsense, that have nothing to do with such a little silly thing called "reality" PS. as for people being targeted - and why - between both of them it does not take much to realise that JP have committed to much worse comments when the drama did spur, than PF did, even tho they both got same consequences JP is guilty of greater deal of things, therefore more attention is directed towards her. not to mention the fact that PF after whole case went silent while JP is continuing shouting on how evil AN is, how much victim she is etc. etc. (whole part of yours about "male managers standard" is pure piece off intelectual bullcrap) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenon.4537 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 People keep citing JP's lack of professionalism in her replies... You mean they keep citing the precise reason why she got fired? :thonk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarcerated.6205 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Well I am extremely saddened by all that has happened but I would like to voice my support for Arenanet for taking a stand and taking action. At the same time, I believe that a more concilliatory internal process would have been preferable in resolving this issue. And Price was clearly intending to make a big deal of what seems to me an entirely inoffensive comment in this case despite apologies and attempts to reconcile from Deroir's end. If you can't accept an apology, you can't expect people to take your side in my opinion. Anyway I hope that Arenanet doesn't respond further to the media outlet 'outcry' and Anita Sarkeesian's bandwagon as what has been done was justifiably done without sexual prejudice and needs no further discussion. Do not engage in this type of discussion, you just cannot win against the eternal victim mentality. Thank you for your continued efforts and know that your player base continues to support you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Nemmar.8491" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > These things are never in a vacuum i realty think there might be something wrong with anet and how they feel about there player-base. > > I can only hope those were Jessica's antics. If there are any issues, i urge those employees to go talk to the company about it, rather than have explosive reactions on twitter. Honestly, the Guild wars community is actually one of the best around. Of course, in all communities there are also jerks. But it is not fair to lash out on the good ones because of the rotten apples. There's more good than bad, and if they think not, they should visit the mmo-champ forums and see how toxic a community can be to it's developers. That community also has it's rotten apples, but they are way more vocal and hate on absolutely everything that Blizzard devs do. It is ridiculous. Complete hive of scum and villainy. But obviously they are only a portion of the community. > > Anyways, i don't think it's fair to let Jessica cast her dark web on the other employees. I will assume they are happy to engage with the community and if they are not to seek help from the company on how to best address the situation. Actually Jessica herself said 90% of the community is good, wich is why it's the more puzzling why she would go off at someone that was respectful. But alas... Action of the last update even the last few major bugs in the game speak to the views of anet player base better then any tweet if you ask me. Last min heads up about major updates that wildly shift the game. Major update to skills that simply do away with years of wizdome to only make it easier on the dev. The major lack of communication on some of the forms about subjects that are harder for them to explane why they did one thing. I realty think this is Anet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrin.1035 Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Gomes.5643" said: > I agree with you in this case - but to paint the whole picture there were also a lot of new accounts that only come to this thread to congratulate MO for his actions in one single post. So ...this is an behavior that both sides use. > > But as I mentioned before with time - and the next internet scandal flows by - the people that remain are ones that actual want to play the game and dont see this as a plattform to swiftly make a political standpoint. The difference is that most of the accounts and sock accounts made to condone JP's actions are also claiming false/unfounded information to desperately push other veiled agendas, whereas most of the ones made to condemn her actions are simply thanking or showing support for their firing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponytheguardian.7439 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > I know people have burned their fingers multiple times in social media. I also know that multiple corporations have added their own weapons in this "battle royale". Why do you think this is an issue I'm *the most worried* about, over some petty immoral tweets? > > > > MO threw one more weapon to the arena, or atleast enhanced something that already was there when there was a reddit post saying that it's now possible to get almost anyone fired by the mobs with using same "tactics" that was used in JP's case. MO's actions certainly didn't do anything *good* or profitable to **us** who enjoy having good developers, good publishers, good games, good [insert your preference here] around. > > What tactics were used to fire JP? JP wasn't fired because there was a reddit thread, she was fired because of her own posts and actions. If those actions never happened she'd still be working for Arenanet. MO's actions showed us that they care about their community, and when some member of their development team is assaulting members of the community, it reflects badly on the entire company. It's why people get fired for what they post on social media in the first place. Had to double-check due to feeling that I might have remembered something wrong. It was actually said **after** JP was fired and in fact was targeted against GW2 dev team. Corrected. Nevertheless, the fact stands that after JP got fired, other "un-likable" people have now been targeted by using same method. Two I know at this time are Hazel something-something and Jessica something-not-price-tho. And from what I've seen from both, some people might get easily offended from their words - but especially words of one. And this method will most likely only gain popularity. 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say 2. Get offended 3. Someone makes reddit post 4. Raise "internet-WW xyz" 5. Let internet do their thing 6. See someone get fired 7. Mission accomplished? As it was mentioned in earlier post here, this kind of situations will always divide people in camps and can be seen as "civil war" of some sort. It's good to see the facts that eventually lead to certain outcome, but it's even more important to see how actions, that are taken during the fact check and after, might affect in large scale and not be stuck in "person said and did this to ~~get~~ deserve this and that". "Indiscriminate redrum is counter-productive" is only my "View from the end of The World", though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogot.4629 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > @"Drogot.4629" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > Harassing and attacking customers of your buisness is a minor infraction now? In what world? Its exactly the kind of behaviour that gets people fired. > > > > > > We can all get snappy sometimes and I still wonder what would have happened if she had simply apologized to Deroir for publicly deriding him and left it at that, but its most definetly **not** a minor infraction. > > > > > > MO has a longer response I saw posted on Polygon if you want to check it put, but the incredibly biased article is ridiculous otherwise. I advice taking a look on youtube and Yongyea videos on this. > > > > Oh boy. Her I am discussing this... > > > > 1. A single Insult is not Harassment. Harassment would be if she put pressure on Deroirs employer to fire him. > > 2. You say it's not a minor infraction. So let me ask you: What's the worst that Deroir has to endure a month from now? The two worst things that I can think of are that he feels kind of guilty for his role in this (from what I've seen he shouldnt tough) or he gets vilified by a certain part of the games media/community and end up in a similar position like TotalBiscuit. In both of these cases the fault lies more with ANet or the Community than with JP > > 3. Should JP have apologized to Deroir? Yeah I think she should have. Deroir didn't cause her outburst. He was just the last person who explained her job to her and for that he got the full force of the anger. He should get an apology for that. But in a situation where you are constantly atacked it is hard to give such an apology. I bet some backup and mediation from ANet would have helped a lot with that. Instead she got fired after 2 days. > > 4. It took them only two days to decide to fire an employee. It took them 3-4 days to admit that lootbox Mounts where a bad idea (altough not taking them back or fireing someonfe for it). Does that not seem a bit inconsistent to you? MO says they didn't fire her because of the community backlash. But do you really believe that? > > > > Sure. Someone might point out that there might have been other problems with JP we don't know about. But there were 2 people fired. Seems like a bit of a coincidence to me. > > > > Not a single insult. After the first public and humiliating shut down for the sin of asking a question there was > > >like, the next rando [kitten]hat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me--as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a [kitten] DECADE, I have never heard of it--is getting instablocked. PSA. > > This was several hours after she had received two apologies and he had left yet she continued to attack him, which is bullying. > > Then a second post where she makes a sexist post putting down men’s feeling. if a man had made a post about “hurt womanfeels” he would have been shot down for sexism but apparently it’s ok for a woman to denigrate and minimize men’s feelings. > > >Since we've got a lot of hurt manfeels today, lemme make something clear: this is my feed. I'm not on the clock here. I'm not your emotional courtesan just because I'm a dev. Don't expect me to pretend to like you here. > > As too what Deroir might endure a month from now none can say. But he has been accused of sexist mansplaining by the gamer sites and that’s going follow him for the rest of his life. > > > As an aside, I was amused by the disclaimer on the bottom of the article I got these tweets from which reads > “The Mary Sue has a strict comment policy that forbids, but is not limited to, personal insults toward anyone, hate speech, and trolling.” > As the article discusses her personal insults towards Deroir and sexist remarks towards men, yet finds them ok. > > Edit: grammar Well. I can't find Deroirs apologies but let's just assume they were there. ("I did not want to offend" is not an apology btw.) Shuting someones basic argument down because you don't want to debunk it is not an insult. Neither is accusing someone of mansplaining (especially if it's what they were doing.) But let's just make something clear: Mansplainig may be sexist but it does not make someone a sexist (unless you go by the definition that everybody with unconcios biases is sexist. But then pretty much everybody is sexist.) Then there is the second tweet where JP implies that Deroir is an "asshat". That is clearly an insult altough a very tame one. Then there is the hurt manfeels part and with that one the community just proved her point. You could see that comment as sexist but if that were the worst sexism we men have to endure we would be so lucky. I'm willing to cut JP some slack here because at that point i don't want to know how much abuse was hurled her way.... Also you say we don't know how this will affect Deroir in a month and that is technically true. However: I challenge you to look at the replies to Deroirs latest tweets and at JPs latest tweet (about Caesar III) and tell me if you can spot the difference... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Drogot.4629" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > Lol.. you don't want to discuss it cos it makes you sick, but not enough to come to the forum and share your opinion.. lacking any detailed reasoning as it does... makes sense. > > TBH, ANET / MO didn't actually have to put out any kind of statement, be thankful the statement was released instead of reading it through JP's continuing doubling, no tripling, no wait quadrupling down on her unprofessional bad mouthing. > > I see only a senior figure of a company attempting to keep his customers aware that the business as a whole has taken a very serious view on something which not only outraged the community, but could of had a serious issue on the company revenues goes forward, thus placing other innocent victims within the company at risk of.. ya know, not having a job either. > > Sure you can have an opinion and it differs from mine and many others here and that's perfectly fine, I respect that... what JP did however, was take a slight differing of opinion extremely badly to which she immediately set about disrespecting the mouths that feed her in a totally unprofessional way and then intensified that with her own twisted divisive narrative.. not something I see either ANET or PF for that matter doing here. > > That is acutally the point why I did post here even tough this makes me sick. > > Because you claim the community was outraged about this. But most of the community didn' even know this happened. I only found out about this afte JP got fired and only because I follow certain people on twitter and was looking at the right time. I don't know how much of the community has participated in this and i don't know the opinion of all those community members who haven't participated in this. All I know is that not all of the community agrees with this decision and that I certainly don't. > > I don't want to post here because it's very frustrating. You know why? Because we already lost. No matter what I write here, no matter how much I do or do not own you in this discussion, there are still two people who lost their job. And I won't even change someones mind about this, because my argument basically would boil down to the fact, that if you celebrate this, you are a bad person. No one is going to just change their mind to that. We are not arguing about facts here. We are arguing about feelings. And to get to those feelings we would have to go trough a books worth of argument and counter argument to get to the conclusion that we disagree fundamentally about some things. > > I believe there are more people who have a similar opinion to mine who don't post here. More people than would support your celebration of this. I can't proof that. But that is my reason to post here. To make sure this thread does not just represent people who agree with this decision by ANET. It's clear you haven't even read through the whole event, you haven't read through this thread, you are basing your feelings on the fact 2 people got fired without even considering why, what the facts are/were, what previous issues might of come into play and why a business such as ANET stood to loose more than it gained from not acting on the issue. You think because we have differing opinions myself and others are celebrating this.. again go read through this thread and show me how I am celebrating it.. in fact I believe on at least a dozen occasions I have suggested it wrong to celebrate it, it's not nice or a win for either party, but neither is being attacked by a dev, someone a poster admired and wished to attempt reasonable dialogue around "a slight disagreement" with some work related content that dev put out for public consumption. I agree with the decision to fire JP... I am on the fence regarding PF because I just did not see enough to warrant instant dismissal based on it, but that's the point, you or I have no idea what their decisions were based on and whether it was the only option on the cards. Debating is not arguing.. I leave that to people like JP... and yes it is about facts, making your decision based on a fact 2 people got fired is a fact, but I prefer to look at the facts as to why they were and they are undeniable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge.4180 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say > 2. Get offended > 3. Someone makes reddit post > 4. Raise "internet-WW xyz" > 5. Let internet do their thing > 6. See someone get fired > 7. Mission accomplished? Another possibility: 1. Act offensively towards someone while associating yourself with a place of business. 2. Employer is understandably disturbed by those actions. 3. Employer decides this type of person is not a good fit for their company. 4. Internet does its own thing in the background without having any real impact on any of the above. Just because someone on Reddit claims they got someone fired doesn't mean that's how things actually played out. Price, who seems to be approaching this from the _"I'm the victim here, and everyone else let me down because they don't respect my gender"_ perspective, certainly benefits from having everyone believe that ArenaNet caved like a house of cards to the internet masses. Because what's the alternative excuse she can give? _"I was fired because I disappointed my employer with my actions"_..? I don't think we should hold our breath waiting for that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Harper.4173" said: > > Honestly it's called show and tell not only tell for a reason. But let's say you're right - if that's the case then yes - you are part of the community. > Your gripe should not be with Anet - but with companies in general. What happens here is commonplace - companies want to protect themselves and have no issue sacrificing anyone. I'm not even criticizing Anet - it's just the way it is now. And how it shouldn't be. It is definitely with the companies. Especially those that want to steer the way I play. But in this case, I'm having a hard time falling into the same mindset that this person transgressions is equal to another when clearly we see the two are different. Something that should be clear to someone like MO. I mean, if he has this little trust in someone he's worked with for twelve years how can he claim to be responsive to a mass of unknown strangers who play his game. Its fine to sweep it under the rug and hope people move on but I think he would have taken a lot of the fire out of this had he had more tact. I still maintain we might not have this game if not for Peter even if that is true of others. In any case, the way this was dealt with and some other comments learned after the firings have soured me. As I said before, I don't get attached to games like others so its probably best to just do that. Maybe play something that isn't trying to have an image. Had this happened at Blizzard, they'd be fired and you'd move on because the game is very much theirs. Your feedback is wanted at specific times and places. It just has more identify and now GW2 feels so desperate or something. The constant value of feedback when I know for a fact when feedback is given its ignored so just stop it. All of this is just a symptom of having unclear anything apparently not even a simple internet policy when engaging fans for their developers. JP has or is a problem but she's exposed ArenaNet also has one and I'm uncertain if its what she thought it was or not. I suspect we'll see more fallout to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > I wasn't speaking about you... SHouldn't quote me then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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