GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"thruine.8510" said:

> > @"Harper.4173" said:

> >

> > Honestly it's called show and tell not only tell for a reason. But let's say you're right - if that's the case then yes - you are part of the community.

> > Your gripe should not be with Anet - but with companies in general. What happens here is commonplace - companies want to protect themselves and have no issue sacrificing anyone. I'm not even criticizing Anet - it's just the way it is now.

>

> And how it shouldn't be. It is definitely with the companies. Especially those that want to steer the way I play. But in this case, I'm having a hard time falling into the same mindset that this person transgressions is equal to another when clearly we see the two are different. Something that should be clear to someone like MO. I mean, if he has this little trust in someone he's worked with for twelve years how can he claim to be responsive to a mass of unknown strangers who play his game. Its fine to sweep it under the rug and hope people move on but I think he would have taken a lot of the fire out of this had he had more tact. I still maintain we might not have this game if not for Peter even if that is true of others. In any case, the way this was dealt with and some other comments learned after the firings have soured me. As I said before, I don't get attached to games like others so its probably best to just do that. Maybe play something that isn't trying to have an image. Had this happened at Blizzard, they'd be fired and you'd move on because the game is very much theirs. Your feedback is wanted at specific times and places. It just has more identify and now GW2 feels so desperate or something. The constant value of feedback when I know for a fact when feedback is given its ignored so just stop it. All of this is just a symptom of having unclear anything apparently not even a simple internet policy when engaging fans for their developers. JP has or is a problem but she's exposed ArenaNet also has one and I'm uncertain if its what she thought it was or not. I suspect we'll see more fallout to come.

 

But you are surmising that MO made the decision to fire PF solely on this latest transgression.. if so then I could perhaps agree with you it might of been overly harsh.. but that's just it, we don't know anything other than PF's bad judgement, in my opinion, to jump into something and tweet out in defence of another dev who had decided to use her attack on a fan as a way to set a much darker unwarranted and worse unfounded narrative regarding her employer.

What constant feedback is being ignored.. I am confused because if your meaning ANET ignore community feedback then I think you might have a hard time backing that up because there has been lots of things altered, ,added and given by ANET based on community feedback, opinion, ideas and complaints. But remember everyone is a critic and to act on every piece of feedback would just be hugely unrealistic and believe me I have been a critic of this game a lot over the years.

 

You of course know what ANETS unclear internet policy is, in fact do you even know any process structured into the business, or any business for that matter.. I think your making that up. When MO makes a statement that they were fired for not upholding their standards when engaging with the community.. you know their paying customers and potential customers, actually leads me to believe they have a very clear set of rules and guidelines when deciding to engage with us whether they be at work or out of hours discussing work/company related detail.

[thruine.8510]

> @"Cyrin.1035" said:

>

> Apparently, you thought more about his family than he did when he made his choice. That should have been what prevented him from his decision. That "gentleman" never apologized or expressed any remorse over his actions. Gratitude, but no real care for how he treated the playerbase or let his team down. Maybe they could use his help at the office right now, but he removed himself from it. Was JP worth it, PF?

 

You apparently have tweets unknown to some of us. Care to post this tweets of his where he attacked players? I've seen the one where he said the guy should keep in mind she didn't ask for his feedback which is the biggest one I've seen used as a how dare he fire him excuse but it sounds like you've got something much much better.

[Harper.4173]

> @"thruine.8510" said:

> > @"Harper.4173" said:

> >

> > Honestly it's called show and tell not only tell for a reason. But let's say you're right - if that's the case then yes - you are part of the community.

> > Your gripe should not be with Anet - but with companies in general. What happens here is commonplace - companies want to protect themselves and have no issue sacrificing anyone. I'm not even criticizing Anet - it's just the way it is now.

>

> And how it shouldn't be. It is definitely with the companies. Especially those that want to steer the way I play. But in this case, I'm having a hard time falling into the same mindset that this person transgressions is equal to another when clearly we see the two are different. Something that should be clear to someone like MO. I mean, if he has this little trust in someone he's worked with for twelve years how can he claim to be responsive to a mass of unknown strangers who play his game. Its fine to sweep it under the rug and hope people move on but I think he would have taken a lot of the fire out of this had he had more tact. I still maintain we might not have this game if not for Peter even if that is true of others. In any case, the way this was dealt with and some other comments learned after the firings have soured me. As I said before, I don't get attached to games like others so its probably best to just do that. Maybe play something that isn't trying to have an image. Had this happened at Blizzard, they'd be fired and you'd move on because the game is very much theirs. Your feedback is wanted at specific times and places. It just has more identify and now GW2 feels so desperate or something. The constant value of feedback when I know for a fact when feedback is given its ignored so just stop it. All of this is just a symptom of having unclear anything apparently not even a simple internet policy when engaging fans for their developers. JP has or is a problem but she's exposed ArenaNet also has one and I'm uncertain if its what she thought it was or not. I suspect we'll see more fallout to come.

 

It's again a matter of numbers. The person who's worked with him for 12 years is worth a certain amount of money to the company. The unknown mass of strangers are worth far less individually but lumped together? They're worth a heck of a lot more. It's not really about the human side of things - but the financial side of things.

 

10.000 unknown paying strangers are possibly worth more than a friend in a company that's been with you for 10-12-15 years. Why? because they strangers pay - and their money is overall greater than the money your friend brings in. So you make the cut. He acted well - it was the only choice. As far as your opinion that we **might** not have had the game - it's just speculation. We **might have had a better game without him - or without JP**. We might have had a better game without Anet at all. That's just baseless speculation - let's leave it aside.

All games try to have an image these days - and GW2 is not desperate - GW2 has been taking feedback - although they've had issues with implementing what the community wants more often than not.

And I disagree with you that they needed a "clear internet policy" - I think anyone with two neurons that can work together can grasp the concept of: "These people are my customers, I better not anger them". I think JP's lack of self-preservation ultimately did her in. Same goes for the other dev. When things go south, make sure you think twice before speaking out once.

 

What would you say Anet's problem is?

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

Spent some time in game watching Chat. Not one word about this. Simple way to deal with it in game. If you are fine with the outcome, it's business as usual. If not, Free to play is the only way. You paid for the game, why stop using it. Play on Anet's dime. I'm off and done. Be good to each other.... /swordsalute

[thruine.8510]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

>

> But you are surmising that MO made the decision to fire PF solely on this latest transgression.. if so then I could perhaps agree with you it might of been overly harsh.. but that's just it, we don't know anything other than PF's bad judgement, in my opinion, to jump into something and tweet out in defence of another dev who had decided to use her attack on a fan as a way to set a much darker unwarranted and worse unfounded narrative regarding her employer.

 

But we do. Mike gave that followup statement. He basically ignored PF to focus on JP as the internet as a whole has done. Its not going to change that narrative any way. Those that think as they do are going to think that way. Those in her camp are seeing a very different thing than those not. But I think MO has had enough time to at least craft a reason but he's keeping it to himself. Or the reason is already out there in that article. He was fired because a outspoken female dev was.

 

> What constant feedback is being ignored.. I am confused because if your meaning ANET ignore community feedback then I think you might have a hard time backing that up because there has been lots of things altered, ,added and given by ANET based on community feedback, opinion, ideas and complaints. But remember everyone is a critic and to act on every piece of feedback would just be hugely unrealistic and believe me I have been a critic of this game a lot over the years.

 

I've seen, and this is because I've gone back through past material, dungeons, personal story, combat ignored. I've experience these things. Gone back to researched them and why they are as they are. Then you want feedback. You've had it. Ignored it. You can't tell someone feedback is welcomed when clearly it isn't. You just want me to think it is but that to me is a major issue with any game. I think most of us would rather people are clear than outright lie to us. But I get that lying is much easier than facing what the truth can bring. I think I'm seeing a lot of lying concerning this company.

[Junkman.9026]

> @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> Spent some time in game watching Chat. Not one word about this. Simple way to deal with it in game. If you are fine with the outcome, it's business as usual. If not, Free to play is the only way. You paid for the game, why stop using it. Play on Anet's dime. I'm off and done. Be good to each other.... /swordsalute

 

The problem with that is, they report active users to their shareholders to prove they are profitable.

 

If you disagree with this outcome, and I do, then not playing and deleting your account is one of the only ways to send a message.

[Jukhy.2431]

I think what many people who disagree with MO's decision are trying to say, is that from their ethical viewpoint it was wrong. Personally I can understand and even relate to this sentiment.

 

Many companies might indeed act in an ethical way, but in the end that can play small part in these decisions, especially if the brand name reputation is threatened. This is a part of how corporations operate, because their end goal is to make profit for the shareholders. Like it or not, this is the corporate world we live in.

[KGS.9842]

> @"Edge.4180" said:

> > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said:

> > 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say

> > 2. Get offended

> > 3. Someone makes reddit post

> > 4. Raise "internet-WW xyz"

> > 5. Let internet do their thing

> > 6. See someone get fired

> > 7. Mission accomplished?

>

> Another possibility:

>

> 1. Act offensively towards someone while associating yourself with a place of business.

> 2. Employer is understandably disturbed by those actions.

> 3. Employer decides this type of person is not a good fit for their company.

> 4. Internet does its own thing in the background without having any real impact on any of the above.

 

I want to have a go at this too:

1. Make someone react negatively to something you say

2. Get offended

2.1. People realize that you were intentionally trying to provoke someone and laugh at you

2.2. Nothing else happens [end of branch 1]

3.1 People see that the person reacted negatively towards you despite your best intentions

3.2 The employer of the person sees that he is harming his company with their behavior

3.3 Person gets fired (not because of you but because of themselves) [end of branch 2]

 

So either Derior was a master tactician who managed to convince everyone he just wanted to have a simple discussion and did not deserve to be treated like shit, while his true intention was to get her fired... or branch 3 played out

 

[Manasa Devi.7958]

> @"thruine.8510" said:

> But we do. Mike gave that followup statement. He basically ignored PF to focus on JP as the internet as a whole has done.

Well, that's demonstrably false.

 

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

> @"Junkman.9026" said:

> > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> > Spent some time in game watching Chat. Not one word about this. Simple way to deal with it in game. If you are fine with the outcome, it's business as usual. If not, Free to play is the only way. You paid for the game, why stop using it. Play on Anet's dime. I'm off and done. Be good to each other.... /swordsalute

>

> The problem with that is, they report active users to their shareholders to prove they are profitable.

>

> If you disagree with this outcome, and I do, then not playing and deleting your account is one of the only ways to send a message.

 

Fair point.. But active user ratio compared to paying will plummet, if more go FTP?

[Junkman.9026]

This honestly all feels like scapegoating two employees that the community had a hate-on for, meanwhile the problems with the game continue.

[Junkman.9026]

> @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> > @"Junkman.9026" said:

> > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> > > Spent some time in game watching Chat. Not one word about this. Simple way to deal with it in game. If you are fine with the outcome, it's business as usual. If not, Free to play is the only way. You paid for the game, why stop using it. Play on Anet's dime. I'm off and done. Be good to each other.... /swordsalute

> >

> > The problem with that is, they report active users to their shareholders to prove they are profitable.

> >

> > If you disagree with this outcome, and I do, then not playing and deleting your account is one of the only ways to send a message.

>

> Fair point.. But active user ratio compared to paying will plummet, if more go FTP?

 

Nah if you listen to those shareholder calls, they don't talk about that. It's all active users and profits.

 

 

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Jukhy.2431" said:

> I think what most people who disagree with MO's decision are trying to say, is that from their ethical viewpoint it was wrong. Personally I can understand and even relate to this sentiment.

>

> Many companies might indeed act in an ethical way, but in the end that can play small part in these decisions, especially if the brand name reputation is threatened. This is a part of how corporations operate, because their end goal is to make profit for the shareholders. Like it or not, this is the corporate world we live in.

 

I don't understand in which part of this century did firing someone mistreating their consumer become unethical.

Before, burn outs were never an excuse for that, especially without apology.

 

Ethics with double standards aren't worth much, imho. This specific case is entirely political.

 

 

[Oscargoesto.8216]

Buying 2000 gems just for not attacking your customers. Keep up the good work. Keep up the fight for merit and personal responsibility.

[thruine.8510]

> @"Harper.4173" said:

>

> What would you say Anet's problem is?

 

I think there is a political issue in part of it. You never fire two people for one person's offense unless that person can use the firing to prove their point. We see how JP is trying to do this but the actual sexism she's screaming about with ArenaNet is when you look at PF being fired. They want to keep the so called feminist and sacrificed him to do so. As a way of saying see, we agree with her its just that she insulted a player. Why are women burning out so fast is another concern there. Especially when there's supposed to be all this care about such issues. And who is wanting something happening on Reddit all the time but I don't think that's as related.

[Junkman.9026]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > @"Jukhy.2431" said:

> > I think what most people who disagree with MO's decision are trying to say, is that from their ethical viewpoint it was wrong. Personally I can understand and even relate to this sentiment.

> >

> > Many companies might indeed act in an ethical way, but in the end that can play small part in these decisions, especially if the brand name reputation is threatened. This is a part of how corporations operate, because their end goal is to make profit for the shareholders. Like it or not, this is the corporate world we live in.

>

> I don't understand in which part of this century did firing someone mistreating their consumer become unethical.

> Before, burn outs were never an excuse for that, especially without apology.

>

> Ethics with double standards aren't worth much, imho. This specific case is entirely political.

>

>

 

Because "the customer is always right" is a joke. If you want to stay in business long term, you need to find "customer that are right for you"

 

And this just opened GW2 to more toxicity.

[Cyrin.1035]

> @"thruine.8510" said:

> > @"Cyrin.1035" said:

> >

> > Apparently, you thought more about his family than he did when he made his choice. That should have been what prevented him from his decision. That "gentleman" never apologized or expressed any remorse over his actions. Gratitude, but no real care for how he treated the playerbase or let his team down. Maybe they could use his help at the office right now, but he removed himself from it. Was JP worth it, PF?

>

> You apparently have tweets unknown to some of us. Care to post this tweets of his where he attacked players? I've seen the one where he said the guy should keep in mind she didn't ask for his feedback which is the biggest one I've seen used as a how dare he fire him excuse but it sounds like you've got something much much better.

 

Reread my posts, Thruine. I stated he condoned JP's responses. I didn't say he "_attacked_" players. However, supporting and condoning JP's responses are the actions and decisions he made that ultimately led to his firing.

 

What PF did, having been at Anet for as long as he was, having a family he should have thought about, and having a team and playerbase he should not have betrayed and let down, was a careless mistake. Likely an ignorant one as well.

 

The only thing that could have redeemed him partly, would have been an apology or some bit of authentic remorse for his actions. But even now... he has shown none. For that, he deserves no sympathy despite those who still want to give him some.

[thruine.8510]

> @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > @"thruine.8510" said:

> > But we do. Mike gave that followup statement. He basically ignored PF to focus on JP as the internet as a whole has done.

> Well, that's demonstrably false.

>

 

I await the demonstration then. But tomorrow for me as I have other things to do besides GW2 and its issues.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"thruine.8510" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> >

> > But you are surmising that MO made the decision to fire PF solely on this latest transgression.. if so then I could perhaps agree with you it might of been overly harsh.. but that's just it, we don't know anything other than PF's bad judgement, in my opinion, to jump into something and tweet out in defence of another dev who had decided to use her attack on a fan as a way to set a much darker unwarranted and worse unfounded narrative regarding her employer.

>

> But we do. Mike gave that followup statement. He basically ignored PF to focus on JP as the internet as a whole has done. Its not going to change that narrative any way. Those that think as they do are going to think that way. Those in her camp are seeing a very different thing than those not. But I think MO has had enough time to at least craft a reason but he's keeping it to himself. Or the reason is already out there in that article. He was fired because a outspoken female dev was.

>

> > What constant feedback is being ignored.. I am confused because if your meaning ANET ignore community feedback then I think you might have a hard time backing that up because there has been lots of things altered, ,added and given by ANET based on community feedback, opinion, ideas and complaints. But remember everyone is a critic and to act on every piece of feedback would just be hugely unrealistic and believe me I have been a critic of this game a lot over the years.

>

> I've seen, and this is because I've gone back through past material, dungeons, personal story, combat ignored. I've experience these things. Gone back to researched them and why they are as they are. Then you want feedback. You've had it. Ignored it. You can't tell someone feedback is welcomed when clearly it isn't. You just want me to think it is but that to me is a major issue with any game. I think most of us would rather people are clear than outright lie to us. But I get that lying is much easier than facing what the truth can bring. I think I'm seeing a lot of lying concerning this company.

 

Lol I am confused.. where in MO's follow up statement does it state PF was fired because of how JP acted. I find that a pretty weak reason and would open the company up to so many challenges. The reason that PF is being largely ignored is because unlike JP he has chosen to act a heck of lot more professional and instead of doubling down and not taking responsibility for their actions he has chosen to keep away other than to thank those that have made disgraceful troll post to him and his family, which I equally think is a disgrace.

Do you really think MO just woke up that morning went into work and thought I am going to fire 2 people, I don't care why, I don't need solid grounds to.. I just want to cos I am MO and I am mad. Cmon, give the guy an ounce of professional nowse.

 

I am pretty sure your experience of taking on board community feedback about aspects of the game is different to anyone or everyone else's because we see only what we want to see. There have been plenty of community feedback that has been considered and made a difference.. the turn around on HoT for instance, rebalancing of skills, providing additional storage over time, adding mounts into the game, changes to pvp tourneys, wvw changes both previous and pending, Guild Halls (not that I think that one was well done personally) - and these are just a few of the more obvious ones.. I am sure there are many other things other players could add... but we see what we want to see.

I am not overly convinced ANET is always listening or always interested in certain feedback or opinion but there is only so much that can be pushed through the teams before the flood barriers get breached and of course their is a cost aspect and what returns they can expect from any work they undertake.. hence focus is always going to shifted towards supporting the business bottom line, or do we want to read about a reduction of staffing each quarter.

 

To come here and just flat out call them liars.. that's pretty harsh and I will respectfully disagree. The game may not be perfect to everyone in every detail, me included but liars.. your just being silly now.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Junkman.9026" said:

> This honestly all feels like scapegoating two employees that the community had a hate-on for, meanwhile the problems with the game continue.

 

I am not sure that you can scapegoat someone if they are factually responsible for the actions in question.

[Jukhy.2431]

> @"Junkman.9026" said:

> This honestly all feels like scapegoating two employees that the community had a hate-on for, meanwhile the problems with the game continue.

 

I'd like to point out that there are over 11 million accounts in GW2. Do you honestly think that few loud posters here represent the whole playerbase? Most players have never visited these forums and never will. I'd even say that the majority don't give a kitten about this whole controversy, because they just want to enjoy playing the game.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Junkman.9026" said:

> > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > @"Jukhy.2431" said:

> > > I think what most people who disagree with MO's decision are trying to say, is that from their ethical viewpoint it was wrong. Personally I can understand and even relate to this sentiment.

> > >

> > > Many companies might indeed act in an ethical way, but in the end that can play small part in these decisions, especially if the brand name reputation is threatened. This is a part of how corporations operate, because their end goal is to make profit for the shareholders. Like it or not, this is the corporate world we live in.

> >

> > I don't understand in which part of this century did firing someone mistreating their consumer become unethical.

> > Before, burn outs were never an excuse for that, especially without apology.

> >

> > Ethics with double standards aren't worth much, imho. This specific case is entirely political.

> >

> >

>

> Because "the customer is always right" is a joke. If you want to stay in business long term, you need to find "customer that are right for you"

>

> And this just opened GW2 to more toxicity.

 

But see that's just more of the same fallacy.

"The customer isn't always right, therefore this case is unethical"

"Women are often victim in the IT industry, therefore this person is a victim"

No... That's not how it works. The customer can be right sometimes. There are pretty valid arguments that in this case, the outrage had some grounds (for JP at least).

[Junkman.9026]

> @"Jukhy.2431" said:

> > @"Junkman.9026" said:

> > This honestly all feels like scapegoating two employees that the community had a hate-on for, meanwhile the problems with the game continue.

>

> I'd like to point out that there are over 11 million accounts in GW2. Do you honestly think that few loud posters here represent the whole playerbase? Most players have never visited these forums and never will. I'd even say that the majority don't give a kitten about this whole controversy, because they just want to enjoy playing the game.

 

Yeah but look at the comments on reddit and here. It will make some people distracted while other things continue to suck.

 

This whole thing makes more sense if you realize that the problems with GW2 probably start at the way things are run at the top.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"ponytheguardian.7439" said:

> 1. Make someone react negatively to something you say

 

That's not what happened in this case. It wasn't ONE simple negative reaction, she went on for hours, she attacked multiple people. Only a person with serious issues does that, so unless those others that are "under attack" have similar important issues (they should seek help) they should be fine.

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

> @"Junkman.9026" said:

> > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> > > @"Junkman.9026" said:

> > > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> > > > Spent some time in game watching Chat. Not one word about this. Simple way to deal with it in game. If you are fine with the outcome, it's business as usual. If not, Free to play is the only way. You paid for the game, why stop using it. Play on Anet's dime. I'm off and done. Be good to each other.... /swordsalute

> > >

> > > The problem with that is, they report active users to their shareholders to prove they are profitable.

> > >

> > > If you disagree with this outcome, and I do, then not playing and deleting your account is one of the only ways to send a message.

> >

> > Fair point.. But active user ratio compared to paying will plummet, if more go FTP?

>

> Nah if you listen to those shareholder calls, they don't talk about that. It's all active users and profits.

>

>

 

 

Exactly, if total number of logins stays relatively the same, but profits are reduced and they can make a correlation to when the downward trend started.. but I agree it would get buried in rhetoric. Games doing well "Players love us" game failing "Players don't know what they want, toxic fans, etc.." Spin City at it's finest.