Dreary.6925 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 You know they have branching personality dialogues already with the charm/fist/star dialogue options back in the original game, I'm not sure what they do or why they discontinued it in subsequent expansions, but I'd love to see them extend that to the storyline as well, the main storyline would maybe be the same but the way you react to characters and how they react to you could be different.. also in the original story we were sometimes given a decision on what quest to embark on at the exclusion of the other choice ( go to place A or place B )so I'm really not sure what she was talking about - we already had branching storylines in the original game content... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > To be fair none of us can really say whether they actually have the cash coming in to afford it or not unless we know all of their expenses and gains. Also, how much more time would their updates need to make that happen? Would you be willing to wait several more months for it? I know I wouldn't. > > Ultimately there are a lot of factors that go into the decision we as players may not be aware of or even think of and it is likely something they themselves (Arenanet) have thought of and decided it wasn't worth the time and/or investment compared to other content. At the end of the day they are a business afte> @"Menoitios.8375" said: > To be fair none of us can really say whether they actually have the cash coming in to afford it or not unless we know all of their expenses and gains. Also, how much more time would their updates need to make that happen? Would you be willing to wait several more months for it? I know I wouldn't. > > Ultimately there are a lot of factors that go into the decision we as players may not be aware of or even think of and it is likely something they themselves (Arenanet) have thought of and decided it wasn't worth the time and/or investment compared to other content. At the end of the day they are a business after all. No, we can't say but we do know they want certain things prioritized over others. One reason dungeons continue to be overlooked (I haven't played all of them myself given the time it takes to form a party) is simply because they don't care to update and fix them (in some cases) to make the content desirable for players. That's content we've all paid for which they themselves have decided to abandoned. They were quite willing to take your money for that content and circumvent it elsewhere. They won't even go back and redesign them as entirely soloable affairs. Its just content left to rot. Whose rewards have been put on a track somewhere else completely unrelated. There's no reason to bother with them even if its a skin you want as they are other ways to earn those. The core personal story is even dependent on you doing them to make sense and they still rot. Its a bit funny having Caithe tell you in the PS how you brought them together when you can reasonably wonder who are most of you people. Bait and switch at its finest imho. As to the waiting, yes to start. Once you've determined how much branching and VO is needed for each episode, you should be able to be on a similar schedule we are now. Things behind the scenes would simply be further out than currently. Also less responsive to player feedback but that really doesn't seem to be something well utilized anyways. I would guess that ArenaNet have acted as any other business would and taken the path of least resistance. As the poster above said, they've given us exactly how much we've allowed. Part of not knowing if they have the funds available is we also don't know if they are using them wisely with the player base in mind. We can't just assume because this is all they do that its all they are capable of. I'm not going to make wild assumptions about can they and make profit only stating that my observations seem to suggest they seem to do well for themselves. The content just doesn't reflect this to me. I may be totally off based but that's just the impression I have. Others may see so much value that they wonder how they do it. But in the end, its just all speculation and wishful thinking since we know they'd never allow that information out and certainly wouldn't confirm they take every cheap path open to them regardless of what's ultimately best for players. I do look at them as a business and we all know businesses will always do what's best for the business even at the expense of the consumer. I just don't know how we get that envelope pushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolmos.8395 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 I'm not a fan of this thread. Derior was simply an innocent bystander in all of this, and the title makes it appear like he somehow is responsible for anything that happened. He literally just responded, in a polite and considerate fashion, with slight disagreement to a constructive conversation and then got dragged into a shitstorm for it. I see absolutely no reason to continue to drag him into a situation that he never asked for, doesn't deserve and quite frankly has less to do with than most the folks here on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it I'd like to see that also. Because my character has none whatsoever. He just floats through whatever the characters choose to toss his way. Yes and no aren't much in the way of personality. The worst is being on rails concerning his personality. I can't control anything it seems. If the developers think my characters should be angry, they're angry. If they think they should spill their guts to someone I don't trust, they spill their guts. Really the only option I truly have is do I want to complete the objective or not which really isn't much of a choice. > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel. > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it. Funny thing is, I don't think I'm the one role playing. When it comes to my character, I shouldn't be more surprised than anyone at what they do or say. And I'm hitting this early so to think its worse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"lagrangewei.8516" said: > we saw what they did with POF, where u can side with joko's minion but in the end your choice can't matter because if it did, they can't write joko into a single dimensional villain, so that only kitten me off that I was given a false choice then if i was not given a choice at all. > > unless they intentionally create discardable "filler" story with character they can just throw away later... and make GW2 episode more standalone. but having the story link together was kind of a feature of gw2 story. I get that complaint but the whole choice but not really a choice does at least offer you the chance to engage with the story. If done well, we shouldn't notice a whole lot. It should be natural progression. I know SWTOR would make the mistake of wanting you to pair up with some companion and your character would tell them to get lost and they'd basically say too bad, I'm coming any ways. Well of course don't give us the chance to decline them then force them on us anyways. I can't remember the game off hand but there's one I played where you had to choose a character to sacrifice and if you want to be all heroic, you could choose yourself and you'd actually be killed brought back with more information and dialog than if you had chosen the NPC to kill. In the end, neither choice really mattered as you'd progress through regardless. I always thought that was very well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"thruine.8510" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > Funny thing is, I don't think I'm the one role playing. When it comes to my character, I shouldn't be more surprised than anyone at what they do or say. And I'm hitting this early so to think its worse... > Exactly! That's why there was so much backlash in "A Crack in the Ice", the whole interaction with Braham was so poorly written, it broke the immersion completely. It stopped being your avatar in the game, and started being just some character in the game. It looks like your avatar, sometimes it acts like your avatar, but it's just a different character altogether. And that's where Derior was going with his intervention. The "blank slate" character works in movies, or other games where you know you're watching a character, and they just need to give you enough anchor points that you can identify with him, and immerse yourself in the story. In a RPG, especially one where you're creating the character, you can't just put the story on rails, and remove agency from the player. Because sooner or later you're going to break immersion for everyone. And while people say the personal story was a bit poor (i don't agree with that), it still had really good moments, and honestly if you only do it once, you really feel your choices had consequence, especially the "your greatest fear" arc that was cut for a while. It's only after repeat plays that you end up realizing that your choices didn't really matter, and everything plays out the same. But that would have always to be the case, of course, they couldn't progress the story without consistent ending. I wouldn't mind going back to that style of story telling... It might add time to the production, but if they want more quality, that's one way to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"thruine.8510" said: > > Are we going to be getting branching story lines so we can have more connection to it and our characters? That's what started the whole Twitter thing and I admit, I'd like to see this. Apparently we had some developers standing in the way of it and now that O'Brien has taken action to remove that problem, how soon can we expect this change to start? Next couple of Living World episodes or next expansion? And does ArenaNet need to set up some kind of player council to help in this regard? Perhaps its something they have difficulty in understanding. > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. ^This. I don't care even a little bit about branching dialogue. Let's put our way-too-limited resources toward something that would have real impact rather than things we'd all probably like to see...if we hadn't just received an unfinished mess for our latest release. Also, this "justice for Derior" nonsense is absolutely nauseating. Let it go already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > I dunno I just really liked that court room part and it's something I would love to see more of. Other things I've liked about the story so far is Rox being interested in the Olmakhan and progressing her narrative of not being in a warband. I'd love to see Rox pull the commander a side for a minute and say what she's learnt, how she feels and what she's planning to do. Even if the commander gives a generic "do what you think is best" option it's something a real person would do to a well respected friend. I think it was S2E3? I can't remember but you go with Kas to clear Queen Jennah's good name which we got some great building of future storylines with Enise but basically we were just wondering around questioning guest at a party to find the gossip. Kas would let us know who's not telling the truth and so on. What I liked was it was written in such a way as I didn't feel led by the nose so much even though I was being led by the nose. But I got to pick what I asked, though I didn't care for the totally dumb accusations you could make so early like a simpleton, but that was fun as it was just needed a little beefing up. No stupid accusations but a couple of real questions you would ask if you were trying to find the source of a gossip. There wasn't much to it but that pulled me in more than other things had at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Dreary.6925" said: > You know they have branching personality dialogues already with the charm/fist/star dialogue options back in the original game, I'm not sure what they do or why they discontinued it in subsequent expansions, but I'd love to see them extend that to the storyline as well, the main storyline would maybe be the same but the way you react to characters and how they react to you could be different.. also in the original story we were sometimes given a decision on what quest to embark on at the exclusion of the other choice ( go to place A or place B )so I'm really not sure what she was talking about - we already had branching storylines in the original game content... Well, I'd like to have that expanded on. I imagine why not after a patch all characters have to answer some more detailed questions on personality which will be used to craft story suitable for those choices. But just returning the usage of charm, ferocity and dignity would be a nice beginning. The entire thread though is making the assumption she was misinformed or deceitful in her initial replies on branching. It may exist but I haven't heard how financially impactful that early branching was to explain why it did disappear so quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > I'm not a fan of this thread. Derior was simply an innocent bystander in all of this, and the title makes it appear like he somehow is responsible for anything that happened. He literally just responded, in a polite and considerate fashion, with slight disagreement to a constructive conversation and then got dragged into a kitten for it. I see absolutely no reason to continue to drag him into a situation that he never asked for, doesn't deserve and quite frankly has less to do with than most the folks here on the forums. The whole incident already established that any reply to Twitter and elsewhere on the internet makes you fair game. Besides, its really based on his original comment that while perhaps unintended did start the fireworks. I don't think we got the proper response in any case. That went way off course pretty fast it seems. But I certainly want it out there more branching is wanted. I'm not sure that incident actually pushes that forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"thruine.8510" said: > > > Are we going to be getting branching story lines so we can have more connection to it and our characters? That's what started the whole Twitter thing and I admit, I'd like to see this. Apparently we had some developers standing in the way of it and now that O'Brien has taken action to remove that problem, how soon can we expect this change to start? Next couple of Living World episodes or next expansion? And does ArenaNet need to set up some kind of player council to help in this regard? Perhaps its something they have difficulty in understanding. > > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > This is where I see things from Deroir's perspective but likewise differ slightly from him. He's asking for meaningful decision but we don't really need that to have some form of character in our PC. > > Look at the latest LS episode where you have to defend the asura at court, multiple ways to complete it with different text which you can use to reflect your impression of the PC and how they would respond. No voice acting needed, the same end state achieved with little to no real difference in how we got there to everyone else in the story and we were allowed to express our idea of the PC. Yes it's extra work, no getting away from it but that is kept to a more manageable level without having to deal with a spaghetti mix of you chose the funny responses all the time so your character does something different. > > I dunno I just really liked that court room part and it's something I would love to see more of. Other things I've liked about the story so far is Rox being interested in the Olmakhan and progressing her narrative of not being in a warband. I'd love to see Rox pull the commander a side for a minute and say what she's learnt, how she feels and what she's planning to do. Even if the commander gives a generic "do what you think is best" option it's something a real person would do to a well respected friend. Im torn on voice acting, some scenes it elevates them but in other cases where within an instance you could see multiple ways of completion their need to have it voice acted limits them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference. > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years? > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon. > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did. > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency. > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts). > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it > .> @"thruine.8510" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising. > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel. > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it. The game must follow a narative to arive in certain key points the devs want to make, branching storylines works against this unless u are alone in the world so who the fuck cares what you do. At best what we could get is the ps stuff where u always endup on zhaitan but youdo so from a diff paths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"thruine.8510" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising. The game is advertised as a game you can roam around but for big activities you group up. Its an mmo which makes playing solo tolerable. Furthermore the story cant brach out from player to player too much (across multiple missions with diff outcomes). We all need to keep balthazar, we all need to kill joko for the story to progress, u can make individual missions have diff options but in the end it will all come back to the same finale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugo.4705 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 I only want one thing: bring back the personality system with dignity-charm-ferocity, I want to choose between being nice or mad toward NPCs, just like the court thing at the beginning of episode 3. How can I identify myself/create a link/instore a backstory for my characters if I can't even choose a different path for each? Only the story 0-40 level is different actually! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > The game is advertised as a game you can roam around but for big activities you group up. Its an mmo which makes playing solo tolerable. Furthermore the story cant brach out from player to player too much (across multiple missions with diff outcomes). We all need to keep balthazar, we all need to kill joko for the story to progress, u can make individual missions have diff options but in the end it will all come back to the same finale. I'm not sure that's correct. Granted I haven't played through all the story but our characters are presented as the commander of what I like to think of as a strike force. In the personal story we are joined by Destiny's Edge. Later with another group of characters. There aren't other commanders adventuring with another group of characters. Just going by the story I've had, it was Destiny's Edge with our character who took down Zhaitan. With help from others of course on the other airships. Then they join up with Marjory and the others. You aren't given some other group of heroes on another airship. You've played with the same characters on the same ship thus making our individual stories cancel everyone else's. Just like we join up with Marjory, Kasmeer and company. So we all play through the same story as basically the same character known as the Commander. The end of the path isn't the issue. Its that our Commanders all do the same thing, say the same thing, react the same way. There's nothing to individualize the story to make playing through it have any chance of engaging us. Every character I have will go through the exact same thing without any difference. We never get to role play to the point I'm not sure why we even have a story at all. Its basically serving as a narration were being told but not a part of. The Living World is sold as a single player experience but its a very shallow experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference. > > > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years? > > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon. > > > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did. > > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency. > > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts). > > > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it > > .> @"thruine.8510" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising. > > > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel. > > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it. > > The game must follow a narative to arive in certain key points the devs want to make, branching storylines works against this unless u are alone in the world so who the kitten cares what you do. At best what we could get is the ps stuff where u always endup on zhaitan but youdo so from a diff paths. Seriously, read my posts. I've already addressed that... Of course you have to always end up on the same spot, but with each character you can have an unique story, or at least the illusion of choice, you never really have a choice in any games, the endings have to be coded, so they're always pre-determined. Even more so on a game like this where the story keeps going further. But nothing stops them from branching out choices, have 2-3 paths and consequences within an episode, and in the end all finish in the same spot. The only thing preventing this is human resources (not the department, the actual manpower), and probably monetary constraints. Thing is, the story is already the basis of the game's success, imagine how much more happy players they'd have if it was even better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference. > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years? > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon. > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did. > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency. > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts). > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it > .> @"thruine.8510" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising. > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel. > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it. We get together in the personal story period. All of Orr is the stage area of the battle with Zhaitan. The entire world is designed to lead to that point. Everything that happens in the open world, not the instances, is involved in moving the story forward. Half of the Orr story is told through stuff that happens in the zones. How we capture the temple of Balthazar and forge our way into Zhaitan's territory, etc. Our inroads into enemy lands. Half of the HoT story is told through the open world as well. The continuing story of the pale reavers after the first mission is just an event chain. It's all part of something bigger and people who don't run from story instance to story instance thinking that's the entire game generally know that. It's not just about taking people into your story, though actually, a good portion of my guild does story instances together because it's more fun, but it's about telling a story through both the open world and instances. It's something you can't do if everyone has different stories, because the world can't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference. > > > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years? > > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon. > > > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did. > > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency. > > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts). > > > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it > > .> @"thruine.8510" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising. > > > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel. > > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it. > > We get together in the personal story period. All of Orr is the stage area of the battle with Zhaitan. The entire world is designed to lead to that point. Everything that happens in the open world, not the instances, is involved in moving the story forward. Half of the Orr story is told through stuff that happens in the zones. How we capture the temple of Balthazar and forge our way into Zhaitan's territory, etc. Our inroads into enemy lands. > > Half of the HoT story is told through the open world as well. The continuing story of the pale reavers after the first mission is just an event chain. It's all part of something bigger and people who don't run from story instance to story instance thinking that's the entire game generally know that. > > It's not just about taking people into your story, though actually, a good portion of my guild does story instances together because it's more fun, but it's about telling a story through both the open world and instances. It's something you can't do if everyone has different stories, because the world can't change. You do realize, that in-game you're never aware of the other player's story, so it's not that relevant, especially since, and thank you for bringing up Orr and HoT, the **two areas of the game who's story had branching lines**! Case rested, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference. > > > > > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years? > > > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon. > > > > > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did. > > > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency. > > > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts). > > > > > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it > > > .> @"thruine.8510" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > > > > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising. > > > > > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel. > > > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it. > > > > We get together in the personal story period. All of Orr is the stage area of the battle with Zhaitan. The entire world is designed to lead to that point. Everything that happens in the open world, not the instances, is involved in moving the story forward. Half of the Orr story is told through stuff that happens in the zones. How we capture the temple of Balthazar and forge our way into Zhaitan's territory, etc. Our inroads into enemy lands. > > > > Half of the HoT story is told through the open world as well. The continuing story of the pale reavers after the first mission is just an event chain. It's all part of something bigger and people who don't run from story instance to story instance thinking that's the entire game generally know that. > > > > It's not just about taking people into your story, though actually, a good portion of my guild does story instances together because it's more fun, but it's about telling a story through both the open world and instances. It's something you can't do if everyone has different stories, because the world can't change. > > You do realize, that in-game you're never aware of the other player's story, so it's not that relevant, especially since, and thank you for bringing up Orr and HoT, the **two areas of the game who's story had branching lines**! > Case rested, thanks! They didn't have branching storylines, though. So you're most welcome. They had alternate instances that led to the same exact place. That is, in choosing one path or another did not further develop your character. They were events that led to doing the exact same thing. A branching storyline leads to different place. This led to the same place. I know when I played through Orr and chose the one path or another I didn't think that it changed my character at all, and I've done them all on different characters. And a difference that makes no differnce is no difference. Sure they could include multiple instances in a living world chapter and give you a choice. They gave you a choice in a story in HoT after all...more than one. In the first story of HoT you could either free the prisoners or you could build the defenses of the camp. Later you can either defend the Itzel village or you can follow Tislak But neither of those make any difference at all as to where you end up, as compared to a game like Skyrim where your choices can change the world. That's the difference between a single player game and an MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference. > > > > > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years? > > > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon. > > > > > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did. > > > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency. > > > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts). > > > > > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it > > > .> @"thruine.8510" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > > > > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising. > > > > > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel. > > > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it. > > > > The game must follow a narative to arive in certain key points the devs want to make, branching storylines works against this unless u are alone in the world so who the kitten cares what you do. At best what we could get is the ps stuff where u always endup on zhaitan but youdo so from a diff paths. > > Seriously, read my posts. I've already addressed that... Of course you have to always end up on the same spot, but with each character you can have an unique story, or at least the illusion of choice, you never really have a choice in any games, the endings have to be coded, so they're always pre-determined. Even more so on a game like this where the story keeps going further. But nothing stops them from branching out choices, have 2-3 paths and consequences within an episode, and in the end all finish in the same spot. > The only thing preventing this is human resources (not the department, the actual manpower), and probably monetary constraints. Thing is, the story is already the basis of the game's success, imagine how much more happy players they'd have if it was even better? I agree. If we could tackle missions in different way and have multiple diff dialogue options i would be neat. But thats really extra money and ppl as you said. Firing Fries and Price for someone else wont necessarily make it easier if the money for it arent there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"hugo.4705" said: > I only want one thing: bring back the personality system with dignity-charm-ferocity, I want to choose between being nice or mad toward NPCs, just like the court thing at the beginning of episode 3. How can I identify myself/create a link/instore a backstory for my characters if I can't even choose a different path for each? Only the story 0-40 level is different actually! The issue i see with bringing it back is vo. You'd basically have to voice act double or triple the lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"hugo.4705" said: > > I only want one thing: bring back the personality system with dignity-charm-ferocity, I want to choose between being nice or mad toward NPCs, just like the court thing at the beginning of episode 3. How can I identify myself/create a link/instore a backstory for my characters if I can't even choose a different path for each? Only the story 0-40 level is different actually! > > The issue i see with bringing it back is vo. You'd basically have to voice act double or triple the lines. That has a number of solutions depending on the problem, really. But listing those would mean i'd have to be guessing the workflow in Arena Net, to which i'm not privvy to. Assuming the financial budget exists, the rest of the constraints are mostly about organization, really. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference. > > > > > > > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years? > > > > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon. > > > > > > > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did. > > > > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency. > > > > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts). > > > > > > > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it > > > > .> @"thruine.8510" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising. > > > > > > > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel. > > > > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it. > > > > > > The game must follow a narative to arive in certain key points the devs want to make, branching storylines works against this unless u are alone in the world so who the kitten cares what you do. At best what we could get is the ps stuff where u always endup on zhaitan but youdo so from a diff paths. > > > > Seriously, read my posts. I've already addressed that... Of course you have to always end up on the same spot, but with each character you can have an unique story, or at least the illusion of choice, you never really have a choice in any games, the endings have to be coded, so they're always pre-determined. Even more so on a game like this where the story keeps going further. But nothing stops them from branching out choices, have 2-3 paths and consequences within an episode, and in the end all finish in the same spot. > > The only thing preventing this is human resources (not the department, the actual manpower), and probably monetary constraints. Thing is, the story is already the basis of the game's success, imagine how much more happy players they'd have if it was even better? > > I agree. If we could tackle missions in different way and have multiple diff dialogue options i would be neat. But thats really extra money and ppl as you said. Firing Fries and Price for someone else wont necessarily make it easier if the money for it arent there. I don't think Price and Fries (especially Fries, Drooburt was a stroke of genius) were necessarily doing a bad job, i mean within the constraints that were set by Arena Net as a whole, they did a decent job, with a couple hiccups in A Crack in the Ice and this last episode. The "problem" is at the upper levels, in the more senior positions that decided that there would be no branching dialogue. Price and Fries were let go due to Price's poor communication skills, and Fries' misguided attempt to back her up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"hugo.4705" said: > > > I only want one thing: bring back the personality system with dignity-charm-ferocity, I want to choose between being nice or mad toward NPCs, just like the court thing at the beginning of episode 3. How can I identify myself/create a link/instore a backstory for my characters if I can't even choose a different path for each? Only the story 0-40 level is different actually! > > > > The issue i see with bringing it back is vo. You'd basically have to voice act double or triple the lines. > > That has a number of solutions depending on the problem, really. But listing those would mean i'd have to be guessing the workflow in Arena Net, to which i'm not privvy to. > Assuming the financial budget exists, the rest of the constraints are mostly about organization, really. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference. > > > > > > > > > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years? > > > > > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon. > > > > > > > > > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did. > > > > > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency. > > > > > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts). > > > > > > > > > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it > > > > > .> @"thruine.8510" said: > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising. > > > > > > > > > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel. > > > > > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it. > > > > > > > > The game must follow a narative to arive in certain key points the devs want to make, branching storylines works against this unless u are alone in the world so who the kitten cares what you do. At best what we could get is the ps stuff where u always endup on zhaitan but youdo so from a diff paths. > > > > > > Seriously, read my posts. I've already addressed that... Of course you have to always end up on the same spot, but with each character you can have an unique story, or at least the illusion of choice, you never really have a choice in any games, the endings have to be coded, so they're always pre-determined. Even more so on a game like this where the story keeps going further. But nothing stops them from branching out choices, have 2-3 paths and consequences within an episode, and in the end all finish in the same spot. > > > The only thing preventing this is human resources (not the department, the actual manpower), and probably monetary constraints. Thing is, the story is already the basis of the game's success, imagine how much more happy players they'd have if it was even better? > > > > I agree. If we could tackle missions in different way and have multiple diff dialogue options i would be neat. But thats really extra money and ppl as you said. Firing Fries and Price for someone else wont necessarily make it easier if the money for it arent there. > > I don't think Price and Fries (especially Fries, Drooburt was a stroke of genius) were necessarily doing a bad job, i mean within the constraints that were set by Arena Net as a whole, they did a decent job, with a couple hiccups in A Crack in the Ice and this last episode. > The "problem" is at the upper levels, in the more senior positions that decided that there would be no branching dialogue. > > Price and Fries were let go due to Price's poor communication skills, and Fries' misguided attempt to back her up. You're right about the workflow thing, but that's sort of my point. MMOs have a different footprint than single player games. There are far more things a dev team has to worry about. Branching story lines are not part of most MMOs (none I can think of off hand) for a reason. The bulk of the resources tends to go to server stuff, group stuff, and in general, keeping people in positions where they can play together. It means that a choice made by a player can't change the world. Let's say you decided not to save Orr and that was actually an option. You'd need to different versions of the Orr map, one for each story. But each branch would lead to more branches and eventually you'd have no real way to keep track of it all. This isn't a problem in single player games, generally, because content is not constantly added all the time. Most single player games don't upgrade the way MMOs do. They sell you a product and they may sell you some DLC down the road, but it's still a very different animal. This isn't just Anet's work flow. It's the overwhelming logic within the development of MMOs in general. The more you divide the playerbase, the less easy it is for people to play together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"hugo.4705" said: > > > > I only want one thing: bring back the personality system with dignity-charm-ferocity, I want to choose between being nice or mad toward NPCs, just like the court thing at the beginning of episode 3. How can I identify myself/create a link/instore a backstory for my characters if I can't even choose a different path for each? Only the story 0-40 level is different actually! > > > > > > The issue i see with bringing it back is vo. You'd basically have to voice act double or triple the lines. > > > > That has a number of solutions depending on the problem, really. But listing those would mean i'd have to be guessing the workflow in Arena Net, to which i'm not privvy to. > > Assuming the financial budget exists, the rest of the constraints are mostly about organization, really. > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years? > > > > > > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did. > > > > > > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency. > > > > > > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts). > > > > > > > > > > > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it > > > > > > .> @"thruine.8510" said: > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel. > > > > > > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it. > > > > > > > > > > The game must follow a narative to arive in certain key points the devs want to make, branching storylines works against this unless u are alone in the world so who the kitten cares what you do. At best what we could get is the ps stuff where u always endup on zhaitan but youdo so from a diff paths. > > > > > > > > Seriously, read my posts. I've already addressed that... Of course you have to always end up on the same spot, but with each character you can have an unique story, or at least the illusion of choice, you never really have a choice in any games, the endings have to be coded, so they're always pre-determined. Even more so on a game like this where the story keeps going further. But nothing stops them from branching out choices, have 2-3 paths and consequences within an episode, and in the end all finish in the same spot. > > > > The only thing preventing this is human resources (not the department, the actual manpower), and probably monetary constraints. Thing is, the story is already the basis of the game's success, imagine how much more happy players they'd have if it was even better? > > > > > > I agree. If we could tackle missions in different way and have multiple diff dialogue options i would be neat. But thats really extra money and ppl as you said. Firing Fries and Price for someone else wont necessarily make it easier if the money for it arent there. > > > > I don't think Price and Fries (especially Fries, Drooburt was a stroke of genius) were necessarily doing a bad job, i mean within the constraints that were set by Arena Net as a whole, they did a decent job, with a couple hiccups in A Crack in the Ice and this last episode. > > The "problem" is at the upper levels, in the more senior positions that decided that there would be no branching dialogue. > > > > Price and Fries were let go due to Price's poor communication skills, and Fries' misguided attempt to back her up. > > You're right about the workflow thing, but that's sort of my point. MMOs have a different footprint than single player games. There are far more things a dev team has to worry about. Branching story lines are not part of most MMOs (none I can think of off hand) for a reason. The bulk of the resources tends to go to server stuff, group stuff, and in general, keeping people in positions where they can play together. It means that a choice made by a player can't change the world. > > Let's say you decided not to save Orr and that was actually an option. You'd need to different versions of the Orr map, one for each story. But each branch would lead to more branches and eventually you'd have no real way to keep track of it all. > > This isn't a problem in single player games, generally, because content is not constantly added all the time. Most single player games don't upgrade the way MMOs do. They sell you a product and they may sell you some DLC down the road, but it's still a very different animal. > > This isn't just Anet's work flow. It's the overwhelming logic within the development of MMOs in general. The more you divide the playerbase, the less easy it is for people to play together. Other MMORPGs have quest systems, that differ entirely from how GW2 handles it. GW2 uses a more single-player like approach to story telling than most MMORPGs. And yes some MMORPGs have branching quests where you can have different outcomes according to your choices. What you don't understand is that it doesn't divide the player base. 90% of the personal story is played within single-player instances. And they'll always be in the same physical space. You're totally exaggerating the scope of the branching that's intended for GW2 stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"hugo.4705" said: > > > > > I only want one thing: bring back the personality system with dignity-charm-ferocity, I want to choose between being nice or mad toward NPCs, just like the court thing at the beginning of episode 3. How can I identify myself/create a link/instore a backstory for my characters if I can't even choose a different path for each? Only the story 0-40 level is different actually! > > > > > > > > The issue i see with bringing it back is vo. You'd basically have to voice act double or triple the lines. > > > > > > That has a number of solutions depending on the problem, really. But listing those would mean i'd have to be guessing the workflow in Arena Net, to which i'm not privvy to. > > > Assuming the financial budget exists, the rest of the constraints are mostly about organization, really. > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years? > > > > > > > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did. > > > > > > > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency. > > > > > > > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it > > > > > > > .> @"thruine.8510" said: > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel. > > > > > > > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it. > > > > > > > > > > > > The game must follow a narative to arive in certain key points the devs want to make, branching storylines works against this unless u are alone in the world so who the kitten cares what you do. At best what we could get is the ps stuff where u always endup on zhaitan but youdo so from a diff paths. > > > > > > > > > > Seriously, read my posts. I've already addressed that... Of course you have to always end up on the same spot, but with each character you can have an unique story, or at least the illusion of choice, you never really have a choice in any games, the endings have to be coded, so they're always pre-determined. Even more so on a game like this where the story keeps going further. But nothing stops them from branching out choices, have 2-3 paths and consequences within an episode, and in the end all finish in the same spot. > > > > > The only thing preventing this is human resources (not the department, the actual manpower), and probably monetary constraints. Thing is, the story is already the basis of the game's success, imagine how much more happy players they'd have if it was even better? > > > > > > > > I agree. If we could tackle missions in different way and have multiple diff dialogue options i would be neat. But thats really extra money and ppl as you said. Firing Fries and Price for someone else wont necessarily make it easier if the money for it arent there. > > > > > > I don't think Price and Fries (especially Fries, Drooburt was a stroke of genius) were necessarily doing a bad job, i mean within the constraints that were set by Arena Net as a whole, they did a decent job, with a couple hiccups in A Crack in the Ice and this last episode. > > > The "problem" is at the upper levels, in the more senior positions that decided that there would be no branching dialogue. > > > > > > Price and Fries were let go due to Price's poor communication skills, and Fries' misguided attempt to back her up. > > > > You're right about the workflow thing, but that's sort of my point. MMOs have a different footprint than single player games. There are far more things a dev team has to worry about. Branching story lines are not part of most MMOs (none I can think of off hand) for a reason. The bulk of the resources tends to go to server stuff, group stuff, and in general, keeping people in positions where they can play together. It means that a choice made by a player can't change the world. > > > > Let's say you decided not to save Orr and that was actually an option. You'd need to different versions of the Orr map, one for each story. But each branch would lead to more branches and eventually you'd have no real way to keep track of it all. > > > > This isn't a problem in single player games, generally, because content is not constantly added all the time. Most single player games don't upgrade the way MMOs do. They sell you a product and they may sell you some DLC down the road, but it's still a very different animal. > > > > This isn't just Anet's work flow. It's the overwhelming logic within the development of MMOs in general. The more you divide the playerbase, the less easy it is for people to play together. > > Other MMORPGs have quest systems, that differ entirely from how GW2 handles it. GW2 uses a more single-player like approach to story telling than most MMORPGs. And yes some MMORPGs have branching quests where you can have different outcomes according to your choices. > What you don't understand is that it doesn't divide the player base. 90% of the personal story is played within single-player instances. And they'll always be in the same physical space. You're totally exaggerating the scope of the branching that's intended for GW2 stories. I dont think ik an mmo that has main story branching quests with meaningfully diff outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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