AIR KEEP

[HazyDaisy.4107]

A fix is good, a fix is welcome, but are you guys tracking stats of that keep's flips? Just curious if the last week or so have broken records.

[LINKAZZATORE.8135]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We have no current plans to remove it. Though, I do understand the complaints and have felt your pain.

>

> I actually feel it's a much more interesting map than Alpine. Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate.

 

Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate. <-

 

That's exactly why a lot of people (me included) prefer alpine... you don't need a complex map full of nothingness like desert bl to make it "interesting". Less random rocks, trees, holes etc everywhere would make it better, don't forget it's a pvp map not pve.

[Ubi.4136]

Nice to see a fix incoming. Also glad to hear desert isn't going away, since I would hate to lose the joy that is knocking people off the mid air shrine to their death.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We have no current plans to remove it. Though, I do understand the complaints and have felt your pain.

>

> I actually feel it's a much more interesting map than Alpine. Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate.

 

Arguable.

 

Aside from the fundamental dislike for the map among a lot of players; in my case for being forced upon us while being unplayable for months with many bugs like these and worse not being fixed in an adequate time frame. Let's be honest here : desert bl still has its fair share of glitches. But ignoring all these "minor bugs", lets discuss map design pretending they don't exist from a tactical point of view.

 

1. Upgrading speed is completely mismatched.

Desert BL scales very different than alpine. Some keeps upgrade a LOT faster; like garri which can easily upgrade in half the time by virtue of the northcamp being so much closer. But also both north towers; which rather than taking 1 dolly from northcamp will take dollies from NE and NW camps too. This makes it a lot more forgiving to lose objectives you shouldn't be losing in the first place. Upgrading northern towers on alpine relies purely on north camp and takes a LOT more time, generally more than twice to three times as long. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

 

2. Map layout

On alpine, northern towers can attack garri and garri can attack northern towers. Southern towers and keeps have the same effect. Furthermore, these objectives are PROGRESSIVELY more difficult. Flipping bay is generally easier than flipping northern towers or garri; especially when well defended. This goes completely out of the window in desert bl. When it comes to fight groups; the easiest keeps to cap when defended are garri > fire keep > air keep. Which is absolutely absurd. Northern towers are easier to cap on desert bl; but they're also meaningless victories... which means they're typically just given up. If you get into cragtop the enemy monkaS won't stop flying from spawn until the tower is flipped. If you get into a northern desert bl tower the "fight" is done. You got inside, no reason to fight you without walls. Quick run! This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

 

3. Difficulty of objectives

As stated before, garri is easier to flip than fire / air keeps. This is problematic for many reasons. The main being if you flip garri, ppt monkey's tend to spend 30 minutes crying in mapchat while you ktrain all their other stuff for free. The second being that it's irrelevant because unless you stay active on the worst map created, it'll be T3 again 1-2 hours later. Yet still; the difficulty of objectives is completely mismatched on this map. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

 

Garri is easier to open than either southern keeps. The inner gates are easier to manage than fire keep inner gates. The outer gates are easier than both fire and air. On top of that, you have east side walls where you can treb or cata both the inner and the outer from outside with ease; forcing the enemy to more or less come to you. You can cata south wall from complete safety from the top rock. You can cata west walls and if needed treb both from outside there too. Once inside, the lordsroom is easier to control than either fire keep or air keep one. The lord isn't impossible to deal with but allows skilled players to respond. The same is true for the terrain.

 

Compare this to southern keeps; and to alpine. On alpine, garri is impossible to flip unless the defenders are several times weaker. Bay and hills on the other hand are manageable to get into and flip. This is the exact opposite as desert bl. Furthermore, you can open bay and hills by cata'ing from outside and controlling these catas. You can also use the gates. Small groups of 15-20 players can flip these keeps even against 5 defenders. Queue desert bl. Hitting gates with 15 players? hahaha. You can't keep the walls clear. You can't kill any of the unkillable ACs which can be built ad infinitum on ANY of the gates of both keeps; inner and outer. You also can't hit both walls and must build more siege inside the keep to open the inner. So you need twice as much catas; and thus supply. You need gens because you can't clear the acs. You need players that will survive through lordsroom.

 

One inside, the lords are significantly harder to deal with than those in alpine. Yet somehow, the lord on air keep is so BROKENLY OP that it's more difficult to flip than alpine garri. No group should EVER lose a fight in air keep lordsroom. Fire keep is manageable if you can get inside. The skill difference required to flip these keeps is too high.

 

To add to this; if you win you ALWAYS have desert BL while increasing your rating. Some servers enjoy desert bl. We call these servers "PPT monkeys"; because the map highly favors running away rather than promoting fights. 20 guys show up? Shoot them with siege and they can never get in. 40 guys show up? Shoot them with siege until they get inside; then port away and upgrade it again in 1-2 hours. This is not doable on alpine bl, not even close.

 

I understand getting slaughtered by stronger groups sucks; and it's nice to have a refuge called desert bl where you can karmatrain in peace. But when it's so effective that these slaughtered, bad groups can end up winning PPT and maintain these kind of matchups then there is a problem. Fight servers that go "up" have to dedicate their players to deal with these people who will run as soon as they see even a single player. The general strategy is to spread out; go to objectives and attack them and if you get scouted by so much as a single player that fights you you run away. If your objectives get attacked you defend with siege; then port out.

By avoiding fights completely; you ensure maximum PPT and avoid to get killed despite a lack of skill. Now this guerilla warfare might sound nice; but in reality it's insanely effective. It also means fights are completely irrelevant; the map + how PPT currently works promotes NOT having fair fights; ever. Very unfun to play with or against. I get that slaughtering plebs isn't fun for either side of the slaughter; but siege and defense is there to HELP THEM put up a fight. It's not there to boost their servers rating so they can fight even less and ruin even more matchups. And that is how it is used.

 

Action plan for desert bl : wait until you have a decently strong group on any map and grab 800+ supply. Go to garri instantly through middle of the map. Sneakily burn through at least outer without making orange. If you can get into lordsroom; you most likely flip the keep because desert bl players are too bad to stop you once you get past their siege. Once garri falls most of them will give up the entire map while they cry about how blobs are OP and their ACs aren't strong enough in teamchat. Then try and convince your groups to ktrain the map every hour in the hopes that you make these monkeys ragequit before your players do out of boreddom.

 

I get that many players enjoy desert bl. After all; the majority of the games players are low skilled players with no insight into balance and a strong interest in staying alive and feeling useful. They don't even grasp why one keep can be harder to flip than another; but they think variable terrain looks pretty. But the map isn't balanced, well designed or interesting. It's honestly just ... pretty random? It looks nice but it doesn't promote healthy gameplay for anyone. It promotes insanely defensive gameplay; bringing in unhealthy blobs to force-flip things or not flipping anything at all and purely defending with siege; reupgrading whatever you lost. It promotes occasional ganking and fighting over camps; but in general there is no real group play on these maps in EU.

 

"If many bad players want it; then it must be a good thing. It favors the majority!" Short term; this is true yes. But because it heavily overpowers their prefered playstyle of... not dying on the short term. On the long term the PPT that comes from this puts them in matchups where the ONLY map they can ever play is desert; and every time a half decent group comes around they still take all their shit anyways. This isn't fun for them; or for the groups that play against them without having anything to do the entirety of said week. After all players will cry for buffs / nerfs / stronger defending ad infinity but once they go up 1 or 2 tiers they cry about population inbalance instead.

 

Desert BL isn't interesting; it's inbalanced and further promotes non-interactive gameplay and population inbalance. HoT was an exceptionally bad expansion for WvW. Between tactics, siege buffs, gliding, desert bl and insane power creep the game went downhill significantly. As a result, population balance did too.

 

So once we get past the gamebreaking bugs that still exist on this map; can we talk about the fact that it's not logical nor functional for healthy WvW gameplay and GET RID OF DESERT BL?

 

TL DR : Desert BL was designed to look pretty; not functional. The map is bad for WvW health and honestly quite bad in general. Alpine has natural progression from one objective to the next, promoting interaction between all three servers. Desert bl favors defense so heavily that even groups never have a reason to fight - they cannot take anything from eachother. Objectives are mostly attacked sneakily or using a heavily dominant force; and all other gameplay is purely stagnant. If either server wants to cap things; they're better off avoiding the enemy group regardless of their size or strength. This style will continue to gain in importance as players leave; the fewer players the more effective it becomes. Yet it only serves to increase the speed at which players leave; as not finding enemies to play with / against is generally found as "unfun". PPT shouldn't be determined by who wants to play hide and seek on desert bl.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> There's a fix incoming in soon .

 

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We have no current plans to remove it. Though, I do understand the complaints and have felt your pain.

>

> I actually feel it's a much more interesting map than Alpine. Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate.

 

 

Many tks, that fix would be apreciated :), for a month seing big zergs following that path to inner is really ugly thing to observe.

 

And DBL is a good map issue is the players that want easy access to structures when they are being overwhelmed by aoe(something that u guys overburned the game with) so players expect to have a structure to hide back, DBL is a good map cause make players commit more into take structures on open field what many were asking before, theres still the isseu cause everything is aoe/cleave spamable,

Bsides that game lack mechanics :P reason players feel DBL is way to big, cause during 6years we have been just" stack most aoe spam classes n spam".

[SWI.4127]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

>> wall of text

 

I skimmed through this mostly. You are 100% right about the ease at which you can upgrade garri. The other points, I don't wholeheartedly agree with. It's true Garri is the easiest to flip, but that leads to a lot of action at garri, and I've had a lot of really fun fights there. Also the rest of the map has a lot of terrain that's also very fun to fight on, not necessarily with whole groups, but 5v5, 10v10 or roaming. To say that anyone who likes DBL is a "PPT monkey" is ridiculously close-minded. But I guess some people need to feel superior over something as simple as map preference.

 

 

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > We have no current plans to remove it. Though, I do understand the complaints and have felt your pain.

> >

> > I actually feel it's a much more interesting map than Alpine. Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate.

>

> Arguable.

>

> Aside from the fundamental dislike for the map among a lot of players; in my case for being forced upon us while being unplayable for months with many bugs like these and worse not being fixed in an adequate time frame. Let's be honest here : desert bl still has its fair share of glitches. But ignoring all these "minor bugs", lets discuss map design pretending they don't exist from a tactical point of view.

>

> 1. Upgrading speed is completely mismatched.

> Desert BL scales very different than alpine. Some keeps upgrade a LOT faster; like garri which can easily upgrade in half the time by virtue of the northcamp being so much closer. But also both north towers; which rather than taking 1 dolly from northcamp will take dollies from NE and NW camps too. This makes it a lot more forgiving to lose objectives you shouldn't be losing in the first place. Upgrading northern towers on alpine relies purely on north camp and takes a LOT more time, generally more than twice to three times as long. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

>

> 2. Map layout

> On alpine, northern towers can attack garri and garri can attack northern towers. Southern towers and keeps have the same effect. Furthermore, these objectives are PROGRESSIVELY more difficult. Flipping bay is generally easier than flipping northern towers or garri; especially when well defended. This goes completely out of the window in desert bl. When it comes to fight groups; the easiest keeps to cap when defended are garri > fire keep > air keep. Which is absolutely absurd. Northern towers are easier to cap on desert bl; but they're also meaningless victories... which means they're typically just given up. If you get into cragtop the enemy monkaS won't stop flying from spawn until the tower is flipped. If you get into a northern desert bl tower the "fight" is done. You got inside, no reason to fight you without walls. Quick run! This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

>

> 3. Difficulty of objectives

> As stated before, garri is easier to flip than fire / air keeps. This is problematic for many reasons. The main being if you flip garri, ppt monkey's tend to spend 30 minutes crying in mapchat while you ktrain all their other stuff for free. The second being that it's irrelevant because unless you stay active on the worst map created, it'll be T3 again 1-2 hours later. Yet still; the difficulty of objectives is completely mismatched on this map. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

>

> Garri is easier to open than either southern keeps. The inner gates are easier to manage than fire keep inner gates. The outer gates are easier than both fire and air. On top of that, you have east side walls where you can treb or cata both the inner and the outer from outside with ease; forcing the enemy to more or less come to you. You can cata south wall from complete safety from the top rock. You can cata west walls and if needed treb both from outside there too. Once inside, the lordsroom is easier to control than either fire keep or air keep one. The lord isn't impossible to deal with but allows skilled players to respond. The same is true for the terrain.

>

> Compare this to southern keeps; and to alpine. On alpine, garri is impossible to flip unless the defenders are several times weaker. Bay and hills on the other hand are manageable to get into and flip. This is the exact opposite as desert bl. Furthermore, you can open bay and hills by cata'ing from outside and controlling these catas. You can also use the gates. Small groups of 15-20 players can flip these keeps even against 5 defenders. Queue desert bl. Hitting gates with 15 players? hahaha. You can't keep the walls clear. You can't kill any of the unkillable ACs which can be built ad infinitum on ANY of the gates of both keeps; inner and outer. You also can't hit both walls and must build more siege inside the keep to open the inner. So you need twice as much catas; and thus supply. You need gens because you can't clear the acs. You need players that will survive through lordsroom.

>

> One inside, the lords are significantly harder to deal with than those in alpine. Yet somehow, the lord on air keep is so BROKENLY OP that it's more difficult to flip than alpine garri. No group should EVER lose a fight in air keep lordsroom. Fire keep is manageable if you can get inside. The skill difference required to flip these keeps is too high.

>

> To add to this; if you win you ALWAYS have desert BL while increasing your rating. Some servers enjoy desert bl. We call these servers "PPT monkeys"; because the map highly favors running away rather than promoting fights. 20 guys show up? Shoot them with siege and they can never get in. 40 guys show up? Shoot them with siege until they get inside; then port away and upgrade it again in 1-2 hours. This is not doable on alpine bl, not even close.

>

> I understand getting slaughtered by stronger groups sucks; and it's nice to have a refuge called desert bl where you can karmatrain in peace. But when it's so effective that these slaughtered, bad groups can end up winning PPT and maintain these kind of matchups then there is a problem. Fight servers that go "up" have to dedicate their players to deal with these people who will run as soon as they see even a single player. The general strategy is to spread out; go to objectives and attack them and if you get scouted by so much as a single player that fights you you run away. If your objectives get attacked you defend with siege; then port out.

> By avoiding fights completely; you ensure maximum PPT and avoid to get killed despite a lack of skill. Now this guerilla warfare might sound nice; but in reality it's insanely effective. It also means fights are completely irrelevant; the map + how PPT currently works promotes NOT having fair fights; ever. Very unfun to play with or against. I get that slaughtering plebs isn't fun for either side of the slaughter; but siege and defense is there to HELP THEM put up a fight. It's not there to boost their servers rating so they can fight even less and ruin even more matchups. And that is how it is used.

>

> Action plan for desert bl : wait until you have a decently strong group on any map and grab 800+ supply. Go to garri instantly through middle of the map. Sneakily burn through at least outer without making orange. If you can get into lordsroom; you most likely flip the keep because desert bl players are too bad to stop you once you get past their siege. Once garri falls most of them will give up the entire map while they cry about how blobs are OP and their ACs aren't strong enough in teamchat. Then try and convince your groups to ktrain the map every hour in the hopes that you make these monkeys ragequit before your players do out of boreddom.

>

> I get that many players enjoy desert bl. After all; the majority of the games players are low skilled players with no insight into balance and a strong interest in staying alive and feeling useful. They don't even grasp why one keep can be harder to flip than another; but they think variable terrain looks pretty. But the map isn't balanced, well designed or interesting. It's honestly just ... pretty random? It looks nice but it doesn't promote healthy gameplay for anyone. It promotes insanely defensive gameplay; bringing in unhealthy blobs to force-flip things or not flipping anything at all and purely defending with siege; reupgrading whatever you lost. It promotes occasional ganking and fighting over camps; but in general there is no real group play on these maps in EU.

>

> "If many bad players want it; then it must be a good thing. It favors the majority!" Short term; this is true yes. But because it heavily overpowers their prefered playstyle of... not dying on the short term. On the long term the PPT that comes from this puts them in matchups where the ONLY map they can ever play is desert; and every time a half decent group comes around they still take all their kitten anyways. This isn't fun for them; or for the groups that play against them without having anything to do the entirety of said week. After all players will cry for buffs / nerfs / stronger defending ad infinity but once they go up 1 or 2 tiers they cry about population inbalance instead.

>

> Desert BL isn't interesting; it's inbalanced and further promotes non-interactive gameplay and population inbalance. HoT was an exceptionally bad expansion for WvW. Between tactics, siege buffs, gliding, desert bl and insane power creep the game went downhill significantly. As a result, population balance did too.

>

> So once we get past the gamebreaking bugs that still exist on this map; can we talk about the fact that it's not logical nor functional for healthy WvW gameplay and GET RID OF DESERT BL?

>

> TL DR : Desert BL was designed to look pretty; not functional. The map is bad for WvW health and honestly quite bad in general. Alpine has natural progression from one objective to the next, promoting interaction between all three servers. Desert bl favors defense so heavily that even groups never have a reason to fight - they cannot take anything from eachother. Objectives are mostly attacked sneakily or using a heavily dominant force; and all other gameplay is purely stagnant. If either server wants to cap things; they're better off avoiding the enemy group regardless of their size or strength. This style will continue to gain in importance as players leave; the fewer players the more effective it becomes. Yet it only serves to increase the speed at which players leave; as not finding enemies to play with / against is generally found as "unfun". PPT shouldn't be determined by who wants to play hide and seek on desert bl.

 

This was just asking to fix a problem , we got a response from Ben , for the amount of time it took you to write this you could have taken a Desert Keep.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We have no current plans to remove it. Though, I do understand the complaints and have felt your pain.

>

> I actually feel it's a much more interesting map than Alpine. Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate.

 

It's an amazing map but all those twists and turns can obstruct ones view and lower enemy encounters, please don't remove alpine :sweat_smile:

[Etheri.5406]

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > We have no current plans to remove it. Though, I do understand the complaints and have felt your pain.

> > >

> > > I actually feel it's a much more interesting map than Alpine. Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate.

> >

> > Arguable.

> >

> > Aside from the fundamental dislike for the map among a lot of players; in my case for being forced upon us while being unplayable for months with many bugs like these and worse not being fixed in an adequate time frame. Let's be honest here : desert bl still has its fair share of glitches. But ignoring all these "minor bugs", lets discuss map design pretending they don't exist from a tactical point of view.

> >

> > 1. Upgrading speed is completely mismatched.

> > Desert BL scales very different than alpine. Some keeps upgrade a LOT faster; like garri which can easily upgrade in half the time by virtue of the northcamp being so much closer. But also both north towers; which rather than taking 1 dolly from northcamp will take dollies from NE and NW camps too. This makes it a lot more forgiving to lose objectives you shouldn't be losing in the first place. Upgrading northern towers on alpine relies purely on north camp and takes a LOT more time, generally more than twice to three times as long. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> >

> > 2. Map layout

> > On alpine, northern towers can attack garri and garri can attack northern towers. Southern towers and keeps have the same effect. Furthermore, these objectives are PROGRESSIVELY more difficult. Flipping bay is generally easier than flipping northern towers or garri; especially when well defended. This goes completely out of the window in desert bl. When it comes to fight groups; the easiest keeps to cap when defended are garri > fire keep > air keep. Which is absolutely absurd. Northern towers are easier to cap on desert bl; but they're also meaningless victories... which means they're typically just given up. If you get into cragtop the enemy monkaS won't stop flying from spawn until the tower is flipped. If you get into a northern desert bl tower the "fight" is done. You got inside, no reason to fight you without walls. Quick run! This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> >

> > 3. Difficulty of objectives

> > As stated before, garri is easier to flip than fire / air keeps. This is problematic for many reasons. The main being if you flip garri, ppt monkey's tend to spend 30 minutes crying in mapchat while you ktrain all their other stuff for free. The second being that it's irrelevant because unless you stay active on the worst map created, it'll be T3 again 1-2 hours later. Yet still; the difficulty of objectives is completely mismatched on this map. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> >

> > Garri is easier to open than either southern keeps. The inner gates are easier to manage than fire keep inner gates. The outer gates are easier than both fire and air. On top of that, you have east side walls where you can treb or cata both the inner and the outer from outside with ease; forcing the enemy to more or less come to you. You can cata south wall from complete safety from the top rock. You can cata west walls and if needed treb both from outside there too. Once inside, the lordsroom is easier to control than either fire keep or air keep one. The lord isn't impossible to deal with but allows skilled players to respond. The same is true for the terrain.

> >

> > Compare this to southern keeps; and to alpine. On alpine, garri is impossible to flip unless the defenders are several times weaker. Bay and hills on the other hand are manageable to get into and flip. This is the exact opposite as desert bl. Furthermore, you can open bay and hills by cata'ing from outside and controlling these catas. You can also use the gates. Small groups of 15-20 players can flip these keeps even against 5 defenders. Queue desert bl. Hitting gates with 15 players? hahaha. You can't keep the walls clear. You can't kill any of the unkillable ACs which can be built ad infinitum on ANY of the gates of both keeps; inner and outer. You also can't hit both walls and must build more siege inside the keep to open the inner. So you need twice as much catas; and thus supply. You need gens because you can't clear the acs. You need players that will survive through lordsroom.

> >

> > One inside, the lords are significantly harder to deal with than those in alpine. Yet somehow, the lord on air keep is so BROKENLY OP that it's more difficult to flip than alpine garri. No group should EVER lose a fight in air keep lordsroom. Fire keep is manageable if you can get inside. The skill difference required to flip these keeps is too high.

> >

> > To add to this; if you win you ALWAYS have desert BL while increasing your rating. Some servers enjoy desert bl. We call these servers "PPT monkeys"; because the map highly favors running away rather than promoting fights. 20 guys show up? Shoot them with siege and they can never get in. 40 guys show up? Shoot them with siege until they get inside; then port away and upgrade it again in 1-2 hours. This is not doable on alpine bl, not even close.

> >

> > I understand getting slaughtered by stronger groups sucks; and it's nice to have a refuge called desert bl where you can karmatrain in peace. But when it's so effective that these slaughtered, bad groups can end up winning PPT and maintain these kind of matchups then there is a problem. Fight servers that go "up" have to dedicate their players to deal with these people who will run as soon as they see even a single player. The general strategy is to spread out; go to objectives and attack them and if you get scouted by so much as a single player that fights you you run away. If your objectives get attacked you defend with siege; then port out.

> > By avoiding fights completely; you ensure maximum PPT and avoid to get killed despite a lack of skill. Now this guerilla warfare might sound nice; but in reality it's insanely effective. It also means fights are completely irrelevant; the map + how PPT currently works promotes NOT having fair fights; ever. Very unfun to play with or against. I get that slaughtering plebs isn't fun for either side of the slaughter; but siege and defense is there to HELP THEM put up a fight. It's not there to boost their servers rating so they can fight even less and ruin even more matchups. And that is how it is used.

> >

> > Action plan for desert bl : wait until you have a decently strong group on any map and grab 800+ supply. Go to garri instantly through middle of the map. Sneakily burn through at least outer without making orange. If you can get into lordsroom; you most likely flip the keep because desert bl players are too bad to stop you once you get past their siege. Once garri falls most of them will give up the entire map while they cry about how blobs are OP and their ACs aren't strong enough in teamchat. Then try and convince your groups to ktrain the map every hour in the hopes that you make these monkeys ragequit before your players do out of boreddom.

> >

> > I get that many players enjoy desert bl. After all; the majority of the games players are low skilled players with no insight into balance and a strong interest in staying alive and feeling useful. They don't even grasp why one keep can be harder to flip than another; but they think variable terrain looks pretty. But the map isn't balanced, well designed or interesting. It's honestly just ... pretty random? It looks nice but it doesn't promote healthy gameplay for anyone. It promotes insanely defensive gameplay; bringing in unhealthy blobs to force-flip things or not flipping anything at all and purely defending with siege; reupgrading whatever you lost. It promotes occasional ganking and fighting over camps; but in general there is no real group play on these maps in EU.

> >

> > "If many bad players want it; then it must be a good thing. It favors the majority!" Short term; this is true yes. But because it heavily overpowers their prefered playstyle of... not dying on the short term. On the long term the PPT that comes from this puts them in matchups where the ONLY map they can ever play is desert; and every time a half decent group comes around they still take all their kitten anyways. This isn't fun for them; or for the groups that play against them without having anything to do the entirety of said week. After all players will cry for buffs / nerfs / stronger defending ad infinity but once they go up 1 or 2 tiers they cry about population inbalance instead.

> >

> > Desert BL isn't interesting; it's inbalanced and further promotes non-interactive gameplay and population inbalance. HoT was an exceptionally bad expansion for WvW. Between tactics, siege buffs, gliding, desert bl and insane power creep the game went downhill significantly. As a result, population balance did too.

> >

> > So once we get past the gamebreaking bugs that still exist on this map; can we talk about the fact that it's not logical nor functional for healthy WvW gameplay and GET RID OF DESERT BL?

> >

> > TL DR : Desert BL was designed to look pretty; not functional. The map is bad for WvW health and honestly quite bad in general. Alpine has natural progression from one objective to the next, promoting interaction between all three servers. Desert bl favors defense so heavily that even groups never have a reason to fight - they cannot take anything from eachother. Objectives are mostly attacked sneakily or using a heavily dominant force; and all other gameplay is purely stagnant. If either server wants to cap things; they're better off avoiding the enemy group regardless of their size or strength. This style will continue to gain in importance as players leave; the fewer players the more effective it becomes. Yet it only serves to increase the speed at which players leave; as not finding enemies to play with / against is generally found as "unfun". PPT shouldn't be determined by who wants to play hide and seek on desert bl.

>

> This was just asking to fix a problem , we got a response from Ben , for the amount of time it took you to write this you could have taken a Desert Keep.

 

Sorry we're busy not flipping anything to matchmanipulate ourselves into having a half-decent matchup. Besides, flipping a desert keep doesn't improve it. Deleting desert bl does.

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > We have no current plans to remove it. Though, I do understand the complaints and have felt your pain.

> > > >

> > > > I actually feel it's a much more interesting map than Alpine. Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate.

> > >

> > > Arguable.

> > >

> > > Aside from the fundamental dislike for the map among a lot of players; in my case for being forced upon us while being unplayable for months with many bugs like these and worse not being fixed in an adequate time frame. Let's be honest here : desert bl still has its fair share of glitches. But ignoring all these "minor bugs", lets discuss map design pretending they don't exist from a tactical point of view.

> > >

> > > 1. Upgrading speed is completely mismatched.

> > > Desert BL scales very different than alpine. Some keeps upgrade a LOT faster; like garri which can easily upgrade in half the time by virtue of the northcamp being so much closer. But also both north towers; which rather than taking 1 dolly from northcamp will take dollies from NE and NW camps too. This makes it a lot more forgiving to lose objectives you shouldn't be losing in the first place. Upgrading northern towers on alpine relies purely on north camp and takes a LOT more time, generally more than twice to three times as long. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> > >

> > > 2. Map layout

> > > On alpine, northern towers can attack garri and garri can attack northern towers. Southern towers and keeps have the same effect. Furthermore, these objectives are PROGRESSIVELY more difficult. Flipping bay is generally easier than flipping northern towers or garri; especially when well defended. This goes completely out of the window in desert bl. When it comes to fight groups; the easiest keeps to cap when defended are garri > fire keep > air keep. Which is absolutely absurd. Northern towers are easier to cap on desert bl; but they're also meaningless victories... which means they're typically just given up. If you get into cragtop the enemy monkaS won't stop flying from spawn until the tower is flipped. If you get into a northern desert bl tower the "fight" is done. You got inside, no reason to fight you without walls. Quick run! This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> > >

> > > 3. Difficulty of objectives

> > > As stated before, garri is easier to flip than fire / air keeps. This is problematic for many reasons. The main being if you flip garri, ppt monkey's tend to spend 30 minutes crying in mapchat while you ktrain all their other stuff for free. The second being that it's irrelevant because unless you stay active on the worst map created, it'll be T3 again 1-2 hours later. Yet still; the difficulty of objectives is completely mismatched on this map. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> > >

> > > Garri is easier to open than either southern keeps. The inner gates are easier to manage than fire keep inner gates. The outer gates are easier than both fire and air. On top of that, you have east side walls where you can treb or cata both the inner and the outer from outside with ease; forcing the enemy to more or less come to you. You can cata south wall from complete safety from the top rock. You can cata west walls and if needed treb both from outside there too. Once inside, the lordsroom is easier to control than either fire keep or air keep one. The lord isn't impossible to deal with but allows skilled players to respond. The same is true for the terrain.

> > >

> > > Compare this to southern keeps; and to alpine. On alpine, garri is impossible to flip unless the defenders are several times weaker. Bay and hills on the other hand are manageable to get into and flip. This is the exact opposite as desert bl. Furthermore, you can open bay and hills by cata'ing from outside and controlling these catas. You can also use the gates. Small groups of 15-20 players can flip these keeps even against 5 defenders. Queue desert bl. Hitting gates with 15 players? hahaha. You can't keep the walls clear. You can't kill any of the unkillable ACs which can be built ad infinitum on ANY of the gates of both keeps; inner and outer. You also can't hit both walls and must build more siege inside the keep to open the inner. So you need twice as much catas; and thus supply. You need gens because you can't clear the acs. You need players that will survive through lordsroom.

> > >

> > > One inside, the lords are significantly harder to deal with than those in alpine. Yet somehow, the lord on air keep is so BROKENLY OP that it's more difficult to flip than alpine garri. No group should EVER lose a fight in air keep lordsroom. Fire keep is manageable if you can get inside. The skill difference required to flip these keeps is too high.

> > >

> > > To add to this; if you win you ALWAYS have desert BL while increasing your rating. Some servers enjoy desert bl. We call these servers "PPT monkeys"; because the map highly favors running away rather than promoting fights. 20 guys show up? Shoot them with siege and they can never get in. 40 guys show up? Shoot them with siege until they get inside; then port away and upgrade it again in 1-2 hours. This is not doable on alpine bl, not even close.

> > >

> > > I understand getting slaughtered by stronger groups sucks; and it's nice to have a refuge called desert bl where you can karmatrain in peace. But when it's so effective that these slaughtered, bad groups can end up winning PPT and maintain these kind of matchups then there is a problem. Fight servers that go "up" have to dedicate their players to deal with these people who will run as soon as they see even a single player. The general strategy is to spread out; go to objectives and attack them and if you get scouted by so much as a single player that fights you you run away. If your objectives get attacked you defend with siege; then port out.

> > > By avoiding fights completely; you ensure maximum PPT and avoid to get killed despite a lack of skill. Now this guerilla warfare might sound nice; but in reality it's insanely effective. It also means fights are completely irrelevant; the map + how PPT currently works promotes NOT having fair fights; ever. Very unfun to play with or against. I get that slaughtering plebs isn't fun for either side of the slaughter; but siege and defense is there to HELP THEM put up a fight. It's not there to boost their servers rating so they can fight even less and ruin even more matchups. And that is how it is used.

> > >

> > > Action plan for desert bl : wait until you have a decently strong group on any map and grab 800+ supply. Go to garri instantly through middle of the map. Sneakily burn through at least outer without making orange. If you can get into lordsroom; you most likely flip the keep because desert bl players are too bad to stop you once you get past their siege. Once garri falls most of them will give up the entire map while they cry about how blobs are OP and their ACs aren't strong enough in teamchat. Then try and convince your groups to ktrain the map every hour in the hopes that you make these monkeys ragequit before your players do out of boreddom.

> > >

> > > I get that many players enjoy desert bl. After all; the majority of the games players are low skilled players with no insight into balance and a strong interest in staying alive and feeling useful. They don't even grasp why one keep can be harder to flip than another; but they think variable terrain looks pretty. But the map isn't balanced, well designed or interesting. It's honestly just ... pretty random? It looks nice but it doesn't promote healthy gameplay for anyone. It promotes insanely defensive gameplay; bringing in unhealthy blobs to force-flip things or not flipping anything at all and purely defending with siege; reupgrading whatever you lost. It promotes occasional ganking and fighting over camps; but in general there is no real group play on these maps in EU.

> > >

> > > "If many bad players want it; then it must be a good thing. It favors the majority!" Short term; this is true yes. But because it heavily overpowers their prefered playstyle of... not dying on the short term. On the long term the PPT that comes from this puts them in matchups where the ONLY map they can ever play is desert; and every time a half decent group comes around they still take all their kitten anyways. This isn't fun for them; or for the groups that play against them without having anything to do the entirety of said week. After all players will cry for buffs / nerfs / stronger defending ad infinity but once they go up 1 or 2 tiers they cry about population inbalance instead.

> > >

> > > Desert BL isn't interesting; it's inbalanced and further promotes non-interactive gameplay and population inbalance. HoT was an exceptionally bad expansion for WvW. Between tactics, siege buffs, gliding, desert bl and insane power creep the game went downhill significantly. As a result, population balance did too.

> > >

> > > So once we get past the gamebreaking bugs that still exist on this map; can we talk about the fact that it's not logical nor functional for healthy WvW gameplay and GET RID OF DESERT BL?

> > >

> > > TL DR : Desert BL was designed to look pretty; not functional. The map is bad for WvW health and honestly quite bad in general. Alpine has natural progression from one objective to the next, promoting interaction between all three servers. Desert bl favors defense so heavily that even groups never have a reason to fight - they cannot take anything from eachother. Objectives are mostly attacked sneakily or using a heavily dominant force; and all other gameplay is purely stagnant. If either server wants to cap things; they're better off avoiding the enemy group regardless of their size or strength. This style will continue to gain in importance as players leave; the fewer players the more effective it becomes. Yet it only serves to increase the speed at which players leave; as not finding enemies to play with / against is generally found as "unfun". PPT shouldn't be determined by who wants to play hide and seek on desert bl.

> >

> > This was just asking to fix a problem , we got a response from Ben , for the amount of time it took you to write this you could have taken a Desert Keep.

>

> Sorry we're busy not flipping anything to matchmanipulate ourselves into having a half-decent matchup. Besides, flipping a desert keep doesn't improve it. Deleting desert bl does.

 

Never going to happen get used to it Desert will stay forever , and still a lot of words for no reason ,you must be one of these fictitious fight people we here the myths about

[Ben K.6238]

Pretty sure we already had the poll to humour the "delete desert bl" people and the results told them to take a long walk off a short plank.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > > We have no current plans to remove it. Though, I do understand the complaints and have felt your pain.

> > > > >

> > > > > I actually feel it's a much more interesting map than Alpine. Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate.

> > > >

> > > > Arguable.

> > > >

> > > > Aside from the fundamental dislike for the map among a lot of players; in my case for being forced upon us while being unplayable for months with many bugs like these and worse not being fixed in an adequate time frame. Let's be honest here : desert bl still has its fair share of glitches. But ignoring all these "minor bugs", lets discuss map design pretending they don't exist from a tactical point of view.

> > > >

> > > > 1. Upgrading speed is completely mismatched.

> > > > Desert BL scales very different than alpine. Some keeps upgrade a LOT faster; like garri which can easily upgrade in half the time by virtue of the northcamp being so much closer. But also both north towers; which rather than taking 1 dolly from northcamp will take dollies from NE and NW camps too. This makes it a lot more forgiving to lose objectives you shouldn't be losing in the first place. Upgrading northern towers on alpine relies purely on north camp and takes a LOT more time, generally more than twice to three times as long. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Map layout

> > > > On alpine, northern towers can attack garri and garri can attack northern towers. Southern towers and keeps have the same effect. Furthermore, these objectives are PROGRESSIVELY more difficult. Flipping bay is generally easier than flipping northern towers or garri; especially when well defended. This goes completely out of the window in desert bl. When it comes to fight groups; the easiest keeps to cap when defended are garri > fire keep > air keep. Which is absolutely absurd. Northern towers are easier to cap on desert bl; but they're also meaningless victories... which means they're typically just given up. If you get into cragtop the enemy monkaS won't stop flying from spawn until the tower is flipped. If you get into a northern desert bl tower the "fight" is done. You got inside, no reason to fight you without walls. Quick run! This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Difficulty of objectives

> > > > As stated before, garri is easier to flip than fire / air keeps. This is problematic for many reasons. The main being if you flip garri, ppt monkey's tend to spend 30 minutes crying in mapchat while you ktrain all their other stuff for free. The second being that it's irrelevant because unless you stay active on the worst map created, it'll be T3 again 1-2 hours later. Yet still; the difficulty of objectives is completely mismatched on this map. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> > > >

> > > > Garri is easier to open than either southern keeps. The inner gates are easier to manage than fire keep inner gates. The outer gates are easier than both fire and air. On top of that, you have east side walls where you can treb or cata both the inner and the outer from outside with ease; forcing the enemy to more or less come to you. You can cata south wall from complete safety from the top rock. You can cata west walls and if needed treb both from outside there too. Once inside, the lordsroom is easier to control than either fire keep or air keep one. The lord isn't impossible to deal with but allows skilled players to respond. The same is true for the terrain.

> > > >

> > > > Compare this to southern keeps; and to alpine. On alpine, garri is impossible to flip unless the defenders are several times weaker. Bay and hills on the other hand are manageable to get into and flip. This is the exact opposite as desert bl. Furthermore, you can open bay and hills by cata'ing from outside and controlling these catas. You can also use the gates. Small groups of 15-20 players can flip these keeps even against 5 defenders. Queue desert bl. Hitting gates with 15 players? hahaha. You can't keep the walls clear. You can't kill any of the unkillable ACs which can be built ad infinitum on ANY of the gates of both keeps; inner and outer. You also can't hit both walls and must build more siege inside the keep to open the inner. So you need twice as much catas; and thus supply. You need gens because you can't clear the acs. You need players that will survive through lordsroom.

> > > >

> > > > One inside, the lords are significantly harder to deal with than those in alpine. Yet somehow, the lord on air keep is so BROKENLY OP that it's more difficult to flip than alpine garri. No group should EVER lose a fight in air keep lordsroom. Fire keep is manageable if you can get inside. The skill difference required to flip these keeps is too high.

> > > >

> > > > To add to this; if you win you ALWAYS have desert BL while increasing your rating. Some servers enjoy desert bl. We call these servers "PPT monkeys"; because the map highly favors running away rather than promoting fights. 20 guys show up? Shoot them with siege and they can never get in. 40 guys show up? Shoot them with siege until they get inside; then port away and upgrade it again in 1-2 hours. This is not doable on alpine bl, not even close.

> > > >

> > > > I understand getting slaughtered by stronger groups sucks; and it's nice to have a refuge called desert bl where you can karmatrain in peace. But when it's so effective that these slaughtered, bad groups can end up winning PPT and maintain these kind of matchups then there is a problem. Fight servers that go "up" have to dedicate their players to deal with these people who will run as soon as they see even a single player. The general strategy is to spread out; go to objectives and attack them and if you get scouted by so much as a single player that fights you you run away. If your objectives get attacked you defend with siege; then port out.

> > > > By avoiding fights completely; you ensure maximum PPT and avoid to get killed despite a lack of skill. Now this guerilla warfare might sound nice; but in reality it's insanely effective. It also means fights are completely irrelevant; the map + how PPT currently works promotes NOT having fair fights; ever. Very unfun to play with or against. I get that slaughtering plebs isn't fun for either side of the slaughter; but siege and defense is there to HELP THEM put up a fight. It's not there to boost their servers rating so they can fight even less and ruin even more matchups. And that is how it is used.

> > > >

> > > > Action plan for desert bl : wait until you have a decently strong group on any map and grab 800+ supply. Go to garri instantly through middle of the map. Sneakily burn through at least outer without making orange. If you can get into lordsroom; you most likely flip the keep because desert bl players are too bad to stop you once you get past their siege. Once garri falls most of them will give up the entire map while they cry about how blobs are OP and their ACs aren't strong enough in teamchat. Then try and convince your groups to ktrain the map every hour in the hopes that you make these monkeys ragequit before your players do out of boreddom.

> > > >

> > > > I get that many players enjoy desert bl. After all; the majority of the games players are low skilled players with no insight into balance and a strong interest in staying alive and feeling useful. They don't even grasp why one keep can be harder to flip than another; but they think variable terrain looks pretty. But the map isn't balanced, well designed or interesting. It's honestly just ... pretty random? It looks nice but it doesn't promote healthy gameplay for anyone. It promotes insanely defensive gameplay; bringing in unhealthy blobs to force-flip things or not flipping anything at all and purely defending with siege; reupgrading whatever you lost. It promotes occasional ganking and fighting over camps; but in general there is no real group play on these maps in EU.

> > > >

> > > > "If many bad players want it; then it must be a good thing. It favors the majority!" Short term; this is true yes. But because it heavily overpowers their prefered playstyle of... not dying on the short term. On the long term the PPT that comes from this puts them in matchups where the ONLY map they can ever play is desert; and every time a half decent group comes around they still take all their kitten anyways. This isn't fun for them; or for the groups that play against them without having anything to do the entirety of said week. After all players will cry for buffs / nerfs / stronger defending ad infinity but once they go up 1 or 2 tiers they cry about population inbalance instead.

> > > >

> > > > Desert BL isn't interesting; it's inbalanced and further promotes non-interactive gameplay and population inbalance. HoT was an exceptionally bad expansion for WvW. Between tactics, siege buffs, gliding, desert bl and insane power creep the game went downhill significantly. As a result, population balance did too.

> > > >

> > > > So once we get past the gamebreaking bugs that still exist on this map; can we talk about the fact that it's not logical nor functional for healthy WvW gameplay and GET RID OF DESERT BL?

> > > >

> > > > TL DR : Desert BL was designed to look pretty; not functional. The map is bad for WvW health and honestly quite bad in general. Alpine has natural progression from one objective to the next, promoting interaction between all three servers. Desert bl favors defense so heavily that even groups never have a reason to fight - they cannot take anything from eachother. Objectives are mostly attacked sneakily or using a heavily dominant force; and all other gameplay is purely stagnant. If either server wants to cap things; they're better off avoiding the enemy group regardless of their size or strength. This style will continue to gain in importance as players leave; the fewer players the more effective it becomes. Yet it only serves to increase the speed at which players leave; as not finding enemies to play with / against is generally found as "unfun". PPT shouldn't be determined by who wants to play hide and seek on desert bl.

> > >

> > > This was just asking to fix a problem , we got a response from Ben , for the amount of time it took you to write this you could have taken a Desert Keep.

> >

> > Sorry we're busy not flipping anything to matchmanipulate ourselves into having a half-decent matchup. Besides, flipping a desert keep doesn't improve it. Deleting desert bl does.

>

> Never going to happen get used to it Desert will stay forever , and still a lot of words for no reason ,you must be one of these fictitious fight people we here the myths about

 

Don't worry, not even desert BL can keep you safe. You can run very very very far on desert bl, but sooner or later we'll find you and spank you. Then we'll take all your stuff :)

[Sovereign.1093]

now fixed.finally

[Sviel.7493]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We have no current plans to remove it. Though, I do understand the complaints and have felt your pain.

>

> I actually feel it's a much more interesting map than Alpine. Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate.

 

You're my new favorite guy.

 

Also, thanks for the heads-up on the fix. Knowing something is coming makes all the difference.

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > > > We have no current plans to remove it. Though, I do understand the complaints and have felt your pain.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I actually feel it's a much more interesting map than Alpine. Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate.

> > > > >

> > > > > Arguable.

> > > > >

> > > > > Aside from the fundamental dislike for the map among a lot of players; in my case for being forced upon us while being unplayable for months with many bugs like these and worse not being fixed in an adequate time frame. Let's be honest here : desert bl still has its fair share of glitches. But ignoring all these "minor bugs", lets discuss map design pretending they don't exist from a tactical point of view.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Upgrading speed is completely mismatched.

> > > > > Desert BL scales very different than alpine. Some keeps upgrade a LOT faster; like garri which can easily upgrade in half the time by virtue of the northcamp being so much closer. But also both north towers; which rather than taking 1 dolly from northcamp will take dollies from NE and NW camps too. This makes it a lot more forgiving to lose objectives you shouldn't be losing in the first place. Upgrading northern towers on alpine relies purely on north camp and takes a LOT more time, generally more than twice to three times as long. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Map layout

> > > > > On alpine, northern towers can attack garri and garri can attack northern towers. Southern towers and keeps have the same effect. Furthermore, these objectives are PROGRESSIVELY more difficult. Flipping bay is generally easier than flipping northern towers or garri; especially when well defended. This goes completely out of the window in desert bl. When it comes to fight groups; the easiest keeps to cap when defended are garri > fire keep > air keep. Which is absolutely absurd. Northern towers are easier to cap on desert bl; but they're also meaningless victories... which means they're typically just given up. If you get into cragtop the enemy monkaS won't stop flying from spawn until the tower is flipped. If you get into a northern desert bl tower the "fight" is done. You got inside, no reason to fight you without walls. Quick run! This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. Difficulty of objectives

> > > > > As stated before, garri is easier to flip than fire / air keeps. This is problematic for many reasons. The main being if you flip garri, ppt monkey's tend to spend 30 minutes crying in mapchat while you ktrain all their other stuff for free. The second being that it's irrelevant because unless you stay active on the worst map created, it'll be T3 again 1-2 hours later. Yet still; the difficulty of objectives is completely mismatched on this map. This promotes non-interactive gameplay.

> > > > >

> > > > > Garri is easier to open than either southern keeps. The inner gates are easier to manage than fire keep inner gates. The outer gates are easier than both fire and air. On top of that, you have east side walls where you can treb or cata both the inner and the outer from outside with ease; forcing the enemy to more or less come to you. You can cata south wall from complete safety from the top rock. You can cata west walls and if needed treb both from outside there too. Once inside, the lordsroom is easier to control than either fire keep or air keep one. The lord isn't impossible to deal with but allows skilled players to respond. The same is true for the terrain.

> > > > >

> > > > > Compare this to southern keeps; and to alpine. On alpine, garri is impossible to flip unless the defenders are several times weaker. Bay and hills on the other hand are manageable to get into and flip. This is the exact opposite as desert bl. Furthermore, you can open bay and hills by cata'ing from outside and controlling these catas. You can also use the gates. Small groups of 15-20 players can flip these keeps even against 5 defenders. Queue desert bl. Hitting gates with 15 players? hahaha. You can't keep the walls clear. You can't kill any of the unkillable ACs which can be built ad infinitum on ANY of the gates of both keeps; inner and outer. You also can't hit both walls and must build more siege inside the keep to open the inner. So you need twice as much catas; and thus supply. You need gens because you can't clear the acs. You need players that will survive through lordsroom.

> > > > >

> > > > > One inside, the lords are significantly harder to deal with than those in alpine. Yet somehow, the lord on air keep is so BROKENLY OP that it's more difficult to flip than alpine garri. No group should EVER lose a fight in air keep lordsroom. Fire keep is manageable if you can get inside. The skill difference required to flip these keeps is too high.

> > > > >

> > > > > To add to this; if you win you ALWAYS have desert BL while increasing your rating. Some servers enjoy desert bl. We call these servers "PPT monkeys"; because the map highly favors running away rather than promoting fights. 20 guys show up? Shoot them with siege and they can never get in. 40 guys show up? Shoot them with siege until they get inside; then port away and upgrade it again in 1-2 hours. This is not doable on alpine bl, not even close.

> > > > >

> > > > > I understand getting slaughtered by stronger groups sucks; and it's nice to have a refuge called desert bl where you can karmatrain in peace. But when it's so effective that these slaughtered, bad groups can end up winning PPT and maintain these kind of matchups then there is a problem. Fight servers that go "up" have to dedicate their players to deal with these people who will run as soon as they see even a single player. The general strategy is to spread out; go to objectives and attack them and if you get scouted by so much as a single player that fights you you run away. If your objectives get attacked you defend with siege; then port out.

> > > > > By avoiding fights completely; you ensure maximum PPT and avoid to get killed despite a lack of skill. Now this guerilla warfare might sound nice; but in reality it's insanely effective. It also means fights are completely irrelevant; the map + how PPT currently works promotes NOT having fair fights; ever. Very unfun to play with or against. I get that slaughtering plebs isn't fun for either side of the slaughter; but siege and defense is there to HELP THEM put up a fight. It's not there to boost their servers rating so they can fight even less and ruin even more matchups. And that is how it is used.

> > > > >

> > > > > Action plan for desert bl : wait until you have a decently strong group on any map and grab 800+ supply. Go to garri instantly through middle of the map. Sneakily burn through at least outer without making orange. If you can get into lordsroom; you most likely flip the keep because desert bl players are too bad to stop you once you get past their siege. Once garri falls most of them will give up the entire map while they cry about how blobs are OP and their ACs aren't strong enough in teamchat. Then try and convince your groups to ktrain the map every hour in the hopes that you make these monkeys ragequit before your players do out of boreddom.

> > > > >

> > > > > I get that many players enjoy desert bl. After all; the majority of the games players are low skilled players with no insight into balance and a strong interest in staying alive and feeling useful. They don't even grasp why one keep can be harder to flip than another; but they think variable terrain looks pretty. But the map isn't balanced, well designed or interesting. It's honestly just ... pretty random? It looks nice but it doesn't promote healthy gameplay for anyone. It promotes insanely defensive gameplay; bringing in unhealthy blobs to force-flip things or not flipping anything at all and purely defending with siege; reupgrading whatever you lost. It promotes occasional ganking and fighting over camps; but in general there is no real group play on these maps in EU.

> > > > >

> > > > > "If many bad players want it; then it must be a good thing. It favors the majority!" Short term; this is true yes. But because it heavily overpowers their prefered playstyle of... not dying on the short term. On the long term the PPT that comes from this puts them in matchups where the ONLY map they can ever play is desert; and every time a half decent group comes around they still take all their kitten anyways. This isn't fun for them; or for the groups that play against them without having anything to do the entirety of said week. After all players will cry for buffs / nerfs / stronger defending ad infinity but once they go up 1 or 2 tiers they cry about population inbalance instead.

> > > > >

> > > > > Desert BL isn't interesting; it's inbalanced and further promotes non-interactive gameplay and population inbalance. HoT was an exceptionally bad expansion for WvW. Between tactics, siege buffs, gliding, desert bl and insane power creep the game went downhill significantly. As a result, population balance did too.

> > > > >

> > > > > So once we get past the gamebreaking bugs that still exist on this map; can we talk about the fact that it's not logical nor functional for healthy WvW gameplay and GET RID OF DESERT BL?

> > > > >

> > > > > TL DR : Desert BL was designed to look pretty; not functional. The map is bad for WvW health and honestly quite bad in general. Alpine has natural progression from one objective to the next, promoting interaction between all three servers. Desert bl favors defense so heavily that even groups never have a reason to fight - they cannot take anything from eachother. Objectives are mostly attacked sneakily or using a heavily dominant force; and all other gameplay is purely stagnant. If either server wants to cap things; they're better off avoiding the enemy group regardless of their size or strength. This style will continue to gain in importance as players leave; the fewer players the more effective it becomes. Yet it only serves to increase the speed at which players leave; as not finding enemies to play with / against is generally found as "unfun". PPT shouldn't be determined by who wants to play hide and seek on desert bl.

> > > >

> > > > This was just asking to fix a problem , we got a response from Ben , for the amount of time it took you to write this you could have taken a Desert Keep.

> > >

> > > Sorry we're busy not flipping anything to matchmanipulate ourselves into having a half-decent matchup. Besides, flipping a desert keep doesn't improve it. Deleting desert bl does.

> >

> > Never going to happen get used to it Desert will stay forever , and still a lot of words for no reason ,you must be one of these fictitious fight people we here the myths about

>

> Don't worry, not even desert BL can keep you safe. You can run very very very far on desert bl, but sooner or later we'll find you and spank you. Then we'll take all your stuff :)

 

Damn I will be standing at NET waiting for my spanking hope its not a false promise :)

[X T D.6458]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We have no current plans to remove it. Though, I do understand the complaints and have felt your pain.

>

> I actually feel it's a much more interesting map than Alpine. Alpine is just a lot more straightforward to navigate.

 

I have never been a fan of DBL, but always saw the potential in it. I am not going to restart the discussion over the pros and cons about the map, but if you guys make an effort to redesign the layout of the objectives than it might be a lot more popular.

 

Also glad to hear that this is fixed.