Nerf Winds of Disenchantment

[RedShark.9548]

its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again

 

warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out

[Henry.5713]

Fights against good blobs with proper WoD usage is, more than anything, a L2P issue for both the commander and the players following. The amount of silly mistakes you see on a daily basis is mindblowing to say the least.

Not to mention that Spellbreakers are already hardly scraping the Top of Blob Builds. The resulting "Pirate Ship Meta" during the MS Wars already put them far lower than that. A big nerf to WoD would simply push us towards more Scourges, more Pirate Ship, less or no Spellbreakers and an even staler META.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> Fights against good blobs with proper WoD usage is, more than anything, a L2P issue for both the commander and the players following. The amount of silly mistakes you see on a daily basis is mindblowing to say the least.

> Not to mention that Spellbreakers are already hardly scraping the Top of Blob Builds. The resulting "Pirate Ship Meta" during the MS Wars already put them far lower than that. A big nerf to WoD would simply push us towards more Scourges, more Pirate Ship, less or no Spellbreakers and an even staler META.

 

I would argue that spellbreakers are right next to firebrands at the top of the 'necessary classes that carry fights' list for medium to large scale comps. I want at least one fb and one sb per group.

 

 

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again

>

> warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out

 

Meta shouldnt matter as there are things still effective that warriors excel at. Like being able to soak up enough damage to also be able to waste attacks and keep others alive in a zerg. If I thought out an aoe and 5 warriors soak up that damage then I basically just wasted an attack no matter what it does. Not to mention they can matyr in with pulsing stability. Also corrupts are pretty much exclusive to one class. Thats definitely not balanced.

 

 

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> Very well put. Would also like to add, "What is the counterplay?" Should be another factor. Is the risk for reward equal.

 

Counterplay would require an entirely different skill design though.

 

For example, I can imagine a lower cd WoD being a channeled stationary bunker down AoE. Similar to how the shield bubble on the guardian work. CC the sb enough and you break it, or if the sb move the channel stops.

 

Unfortunetly, just like pretty much everything, its a fire and forget skill. Its no doubt pure chance Anet thought "should we make this 1200 range ground targetted? Nah probably not".

[RedShark.9548]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again

> >

> > warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out

>

> Meta shouldnt matter as there are things still effective that warriors excel at. Like being able to soak up enough damage to also be able to waste attacks and keep others alive in a zerg. If I thought out an aoe and 5 warriors soak up that damage then I basically just wasted an attack no matter what it does. Not to mention they can matyr in with pulsing stability. Also corrupts are pretty much exclusive to one class. Thats definitely not balanced.

>

>

 

no, just no, nobody, i bet you everything my account has, would play warrior in a zerg if its only role would be to soak up dmg...and you know why ? because guard does that already and that waaay better than warrior, and why ? because guard ALSO while soaking dmg heals his group and grants boons like stability or resistance and protection to his group. a warrior who is just soaking dmg ? yea nah, useless.

and dont even bring the argument that warrior is doing oh so big crits to his enemies...sure he can hit alot, but has to go melee to do that, you know who also does very big crits ? revenant with hammer, and guess what, he can do that consistantly on 1200 range woth low cd skills.

no the warrior needs something unique to bring into wvw or he just gets dropped and ends up as another unwanted class in zergs, just like ranger/engi and thief (i know there are some special snowflakes out there who still play those classes and that well, but the truth is that they are widely unwanted in a zerg)

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

Sorry but anyone complaining about WoD needs to improve. Projectiles are HORRIBLE in zerg play anyway, so it's your fault for bringing them. You should be also looking out for Warriors about to pop WoD and focus CC them, or simply move off. Being static is a good way to get destroyed. Anyway, WoD only removes one boon per second, it's not even as powerful as people say - the true power is the "panic reaction" it creates, which makes people lose focus.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > Very well put. Would also like to add, "What is the counterplay?" Should be another factor. Is the risk for reward equal.

>

> Counterplay would require an entirely different skill design though.

>

> For example, I can imagine a lower cd WoD being a channeled stationary bunker down AoE. Similar to how the shield bubble on the guardian work. CC the sb enough and you break it, or if the sb move the channel stops.

>

> Unfortunetly, just like pretty much everything, its a fire and forget skill. Its no doubt pure chance Anet thought "should we make this 1200 range ground targetted? Nah probably not".

 

It wouldnt need an entirely different design to gain counterplay. Just get rid of the projectile cancelation. Then it would allow allys and those who use projectiles to effectively get out safely or even have a fighting chance.

 

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again

> > >

> > > warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out

> >

> > Meta shouldnt matter as there are things still effective that warriors excel at. Like being able to soak up enough damage to also be able to waste attacks and keep others alive in a zerg. If I thought out an aoe and 5 warriors soak up that damage then I basically just wasted an attack no matter what it does. Not to mention they can matyr in with pulsing stability. Also corrupts are pretty much exclusive to one class. Thats definitely not balanced.

> >

> >

>

> no, just no, nobody, i bet you everything my account has, would play warrior in a zerg if its only role would be to soak up dmg...and you know why ? because guard does that already and that waaay better than warrior, and why ? because guard ALSO while soaking dmg heals his group and grants boons like stability or resistance and protection to his group. a warrior who is just soaking dmg ? yea nah, useless.

> and dont even bring the argument that warrior is doing oh so big crits to his enemies...sure he can hit alot, but has to go melee to do that, you know who also does very big crits ? revenant with hammer, and guess what, he can do that consistantly on 1200 range woth low cd skills.

> no the warrior needs something unique to bring into wvw or he just gets dropped and ends up as another unwanted class in zergs, just like ranger/engi and thief (i know there are some special snowflakes out there who still play those classes and that well, but the truth is that they are widely unwanted in a zerg)

 

Who cares if its wanted or unwanted in a zerg, i play an engineer and nothing stops me from following a blob leader around wheter im wanted or not. Its not a thing balance should be centered around, thats purely a community issue. If it didnt block projectiles, guess what, it would still be an effective elite. Hell one of the best in the game still.

 

This> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> Sorry but anyone complaining about WoD needs to improve. Projectiles are HORRIBLE in zerg play anyway, so it's your fault for bringing them. You should be also looking out for Warriors about to pop WoD and focus CC them, or simply move off. Being static is a good way to get destroyed. Anyway, WoD only removes one boon per second, it's not even as powerful as people say - the true power is the "panic reaction" it creates, which makes people lose focus.

 

Play any range focused build versus a zerg running multiple SBs, then come back and say its not overpowered. It doesnt matter what the state of projectiles are, the fact is the skill does to much for what it actually is, it doesnt require upkeep, it doesnt require risk, its reward is clearly bloated.

[Israel.7056]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> Sorry but anyone complaining about WoD needs to improve. Projectiles are HORRIBLE in zerg play anyway, so it's your fault for bringing them. You should be also looking out for Warriors about to pop WoD and focus CC them, or simply move off. Being static is a good way to get destroyed. Anyway, WoD only removes one boon per second, it's not even as powerful as people say - the true power is the "panic reaction" it creates, which makes people lose focus.

 

It is most certainly as powerful as people are saying . Its not trivial to focus down one spellbreaker with stances trying to pop winds 20 different warriors all with stances good luck with that. It doesn't just strip boons it prevents their reapplication which makes most support useless within the bubble and each one covers a large area so if the cc (pulls, grav wells etc) go down at the same time anyone caught is dead in seconds or has to gas out their defensives just to make it out. WoD carries fights harder than firebrands imo it is the single most powerful skill in wvw for medium to large scale fights.

[Shagaliscious.6281]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> Sorry but anyone complaining about WoD needs to improve. Projectiles are HORRIBLE in zerg play anyway, so it's your fault for bringing them. You should be also looking out for Warriors about to pop WoD and focus CC them, or simply move off. Being static is a good way to get destroyed. Anyway, WoD only removes one boon per second, it's not even as powerful as people say - the true power is the "panic reaction" it creates, which makes people lose focus.

 

Its true power is area denial. You can drop it on the enemy backline and watch them either push into melee range, or dodge back, putting them outside of 1,200 range and making them ineffective at the start of a fight so your range and melee can all focus on the enemy frontline. I get what you are saying though, I see lots of people panic even when the enemy is like 2,000 range away and a warrior bubbles on you. I just see a lot of bubbles that I would consider great bubbles, that don't catch a lot of people, but force the enemy zerg into an unfavorable position for them.

[Israel.7056]

You kind of have to "panic" if a bubble goes down near you but certainly if it goes down on top of you because you're always a few seconds away from being dead if pulls or ccs go down or just a decent condi bomb. Also it seems like were talking about open field and wide open terrain can we talk about how effective bubbles are in narrow terrain? Can we talk about how fights over actual objectives all take place in narrow terrain like hallways, narrow corridors and lords rooms?

[iKeostuKen.2738]

Engie have no choice but to panic as we just cant do a thing inside or outside of the bubble. Cant support allies cause boons are negated, cant support by attacks cause the bubble eats anything. Only thing that seems to work is flamethrower when your fighting a zerg full of bubbles. But then your a sitting duck cause no boons to keep you up.

 

You cant block, you cant blind, all you can do is try to multi spam CC, but thats sort of a waste.

[BlueMelody.6398]

Yet our 25-man group that carries at most 2 and sometimes 0 spellbreakers (so much for SB being "essential", whereas we always carry 6-8 FB and about that many scourges), often manage to beat similar-sized groups dropping 4-6 bubbles. If bubbles were that OP, we wouldn't be winning those fights.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Yet our 25-man group that carries at most 2 and sometimes 0 spellbreakers (so much for SB being "essential", whereas we always carry 6-8 FB and about that many scourges), often manage to beat similar-sized groups dropping 4-6 bubbles. If bubbles were that OP, we wouldn't be winning those fights.

 

What you and your group do is not representative of the entire population. Just saying.

[freecarl.1320]

> @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > The "projectile hate" is such a meme. There is barely any projectile hate in meta builds

>

> You mean meta firebrand which can almost perma reflect? Or are you playing in a different universe than the rest of us?

 

I weep for the necros stuck in a party/squad where guards are only reflecting while in courage

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Yet our 25-man group that carries at most 2 and sometimes 0 spellbreakers (so much for SB being "essential", whereas we always carry 6-8 FB and about that many scourges), often manage to beat similar-sized groups dropping 4-6 bubbles. If bubbles were that OP, we wouldn't be winning those fights.

 

You're fighting some very bad players if that's true.

[revox.8273]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > Yet our 25-man group that carries at most 2 and sometimes 0 spellbreakers (so much for SB being "essential", whereas we always carry 6-8 FB and about that many scourges), often manage to beat similar-sized groups dropping 4-6 bubbles. If bubbles were that OP, we wouldn't be winning those fights.

>

> What you and your group do is not representative of the entire population. Just saying.

 

you just have to find a way to twist it in your favour dont ya?

you know that your class is weak in zerg fights, especially with all the projectile hate, you cry that u cant do shit with your damn skills if OMG a Wod drooped yet firebrands are the definition of projectile hate

you say that nothing can stop you running along a squad? yeah, its true, until some random soulbeast simply detonates you to pieces from 1500 range, or u eat a full counter, a rev hammer, etc.

and a little advice, if u run wvw, join comms and pay atention, this will make u survive 1000% more and ofc dont bring a knife to a gunfight, spellbreakers are frontliners meant to endure some hits engineer is not so dont act like a heavy class

[iKeostuKen.2738]

Ofc I want it in my favor, I want better balance in the game. WoD is not good by design for PvP.

 

I wouldnt even say the class is weak in zerg fights that do not contain WoD. While Wall of Reflection is annoying its not nearly as bad for the fact that I can still support my team if necessary with elixir gun or any form of condition cleansing projectiles that I have at my disposal.

 

Your 3rd argument is pretty much universal. Luckily Elixir S and shield 4/5 helps with that.

That last argument doesnt really even remotely apply to this.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > Definitely needs to be nerfed, currently the strongest elite skill in WvW

> >

> > Need a little more than that...

> >

> > So.. we nerf it, then some other elite skill becomes the 'strongest in WvW'. Might as well start working on that too.,, Then..

> >

> > Matter of fact, let's list the elites in order of strength, so we can queue up the 'Nerf _____ skill because it's the strongest Elite in WvW'

> >

> >

> >

>

> Generally better to nerf skills than buffing skills to avoid power creep

 

Not really

 

It's never a good idea to nerf builds when players build armor sets around them (and invest a lot of time in). It creates a disincentive to even play (because why bother playing if they keep eradicating certain builds?)

 

Always better to buff, so instead of having 1-2 viable builds (which you know only exist on some classes), it's better to have 3-4 or 5-6. Power creep? Nah, keep buffing other classes until everything is in line.

 

Keep in mind, when a player says something like "well it's time to shelve my ......" then you know you've made "balancing" error.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

meh, I don't mind the spellbreaker bubble. There are much worse things than that. Like their (felt like) perma blocks and insane speed. Not as broken as mirage, thief or scourge. So I do not care actually. As long as stealth is allowed in wvw, warrior bubbles are just a minor issue.

[Israel.7056]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

 

> It's never a good idea to nerf builds when players build armor sets around them (and invest a lot of time in). It creates a disincentive to even play (because why bother playing if they keep eradicating certain builds?)

>

> Always better to buff, so instead of having 1-2 viable builds (which you know only exist on some classes), it's better to have 3-4 or 5-6. Power creep? Nah, keep buffing other classes until everything is in line.

>

> Keep in mind, when a player says something like "well it's time to shelve my ......" then you know you've made "balancing" error.

 

But every build can be min maxed around, this seems like too broad a principle to me.

[Handin.4032]

Bubble is annoying, and OP - but not as game breaking as some here claim. It does probably need to be nerfed/balanced, but not drastically changed. However, the BIGGEST problems I think are the colors. Good bubble = LIGHT gold and bad bubble = DARK gold. WvW players tend to be trained RED = bad, and the color difference is not really all that great, especially since its "hazy" and there may be a mix of good and bad bubbles in play resulting in a gold "blobby blur". Most of the time I see players standing in bubbles its when there's a lot of other effects going on and it's bubble is NOT strongly colored (Think of feedback which STANDS OUT). The best and I think easiest change by FAR would be for them to change the colors. Keep good bubble = light gold but change bad to vibrant red or something else, or at the very least put an actual noticable red circle around the border. Makes no sense why they made the two colors so close to each other, gave it a fuzzy boundary region and thus making multiple bubbles pop up really blend in

[Abjurer.9302]

On my necro I like to use Corrosive Poison Cloud because it is an invisible projectile block with a 30 seconds cool down. I also take all of the boon corrupts that I can. I think that Winds of Disenchantment gets a lot of hate just because it is highly visible. I think that a necro spamming Corrosive Poison Cloud with corrupts from range on 30 second recharge is similar to a warrior using all of its utilities and leaps to use Winds of Disenchantment on a 90 second recharge.

 

I just wanted to put this out for perspective I have both a necro and warrior and I think the calls to nerf Winds of Disenchantment are a bit overblown.

[Sovereign.1093]

a well placed bubble will secure the enemy into the dome of which if bombed will result to enemy deaths. there is no counter to a well placed bubble that is bombed.

 

to achieve this, is best at choke points, places where the enemy cant move back left or right except forward only and to your bombs.

 

now a level lower, bubbles placed in open field.

 

most deaths result of players being bubbled on are bombed and do not react proper.

 

how to not react proper

 

1. back pedaling

2. strafe left or right

3. no stun break or team has no team stun break

 

for these causes, the effect is wipe.

 

how then do we get out of it?

 

1. counter a bubble with your own. this cause will effect a war of attrition. it means the one who survives more than one hit will win.

2. leap out, dodge out, run out (not strafe or back pedal) and rebuff. this is the go to option if coordinated. then counter.

3. heavy pirate ship normally counters the bubble. use your wells and fear to rid of him. coordinated taunts by revs make it easy

 

in all these, whats most important is the run out. you will always be at the fastest moving speed if you move like so. an example would be to use action cam and see the movement of forward left right back. so if you set your binds at normal, you will have to face the direction to go and swing that mouse fast. this i stress to ns sf players a lot. once they get it our survivability improved a whole lot.

 

tldr.

 

bubbles is a game changer. if setup proper it will end the enemy.

 

counters rely on movement and coordination and composition.

 

how to fix the bubble?

 

change the color. not shade of orange but pink or red. the same as if you face the old f5 of scourge.

 

where you see a warrior about to pop it instead of the small orange like shine, make it so like the scourge warning when you press shade skills.

[RedShark.9548]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > Very well put. Would also like to add, "What is the counterplay?" Should be another factor. Is the risk for reward equal.

> >

> > Counterplay would require an entirely different skill design though.

> >

> > For example, I can imagine a lower cd WoD being a channeled stationary bunker down AoE. Similar to how the shield bubble on the guardian work. CC the sb enough and you break it, or if the sb move the channel stops.

> >

> > Unfortunetly, just like pretty much everything, its a fire and forget skill. Its no doubt pure chance Anet thought "should we make this 1200 range ground targetted? Nah probably not".

>

> It wouldnt need an entirely different design to gain counterplay. Just get rid of the projectile cancelation. Then it would allow allys and those who use projectiles to effectively get out safely or even have a fighting chance.

>

> > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > > its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again

> > > >

> > > > warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out

> > >

> > > Meta shouldnt matter as there are things still effective that warriors excel at. Like being able to soak up enough damage to also be able to waste attacks and keep others alive in a zerg. If I thought out an aoe and 5 warriors soak up that damage then I basically just wasted an attack no matter what it does. Not to mention they can matyr in with pulsing stability. Also corrupts are pretty much exclusive to one class. Thats definitely not balanced.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > no, just no, nobody, i bet you everything my account has, would play warrior in a zerg if its only role would be to soak up dmg...and you know why ? because guard does that already and that waaay better than warrior, and why ? because guard ALSO while soaking dmg heals his group and grants boons like stability or resistance and protection to his group. a warrior who is just soaking dmg ? yea nah, useless.

> > and dont even bring the argument that warrior is doing oh so big crits to his enemies...sure he can hit alot, but has to go melee to do that, you know who also does very big crits ? revenant with hammer, and guess what, he can do that consistantly on 1200 range woth low cd skills.

> > no the warrior needs something unique to bring into wvw or he just gets dropped and ends up as another unwanted class in zergs, just like ranger/engi and thief (i know there are some special snowflakes out there who still play those classes and that well, but the truth is that they are widely unwanted in a zerg)

>

> Who cares if its wanted or unwanted in a zerg, i play an engineer and nothing stops me from following a blob leader around wheter im wanted or not. Its not a thing balance should be centered around, thats purely a community issue. If it didnt block projectiles, guess what, it would still be an effective elite. Hell one of the best in the game still.

>

> This> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> > Sorry but anyone complaining about WoD needs to improve. Projectiles are HORRIBLE in zerg play anyway, so it's your fault for bringing them. You should be also looking out for Warriors about to pop WoD and focus CC them, or simply move off. Being static is a good way to get destroyed. Anyway, WoD only removes one boon per second, it's not even as powerful as people say - the true power is the "panic reaction" it creates, which makes people lose focus.

>

> Play any range focused build versus a zerg running multiple SBs, then come back and say its not overpowered. It doesnt matter what the state of projectiles are, the fact is the skill does to much for what it actually is, it doesnt require upkeep, it doesnt require risk, its reward is clearly bloated.

 

you didnt say that you just wanted the projectile hate removed it sounded like you wanted the whole thing nerfed to the ground, so that the warrior is only good for soaking dmg, which would be bs, the projectile hate is the least thing why ppl use it, sure go ahead and remove that part of it, idc

and you are one of those snowflakes i was talking about, cool story bro, but getting kicked out of the squad because your class isnt wanted is not just a community issue, if they want to win and have better chances by taking the better classes into their squad it completely natural. and as a frontliner its almost impossible to survive without being in the squad, or atleast makes it waaaay harder then, which isnt fun either

seeing that you have problems with the projectiles it looks like you are playing ranged, which is alot easier without being in a squad