Increasing toxicity in EU WvW.

[Naxos.2503]

> @"nthmetal.9652" said:

> Not all of us are cut out to be commanders. My build would not be very good for that, for example, because I get downed A LOT. My skill is probably not good enough for that either. A comm constantly running back from spawn is probably not gonna be much help. :)

>

> This whole thing ... it makes me a little sad.

>

> I joined this game only a couple of months ago, and generally have made a very good experience. I started out with my first character, an ele, and noticed that I have no idea what I was doing. Two weeks later I still had no idea at all. It just doesn't work at all for me. Friend of mine? Plays a boontempest and he claims he can faceroll and do just about anything, and me? Well I cannot. I die to trashmobs in 10 seconds.

> I have an engineer, and can't wrap my head around that either.

> I have a revenant, which I don't play for the reason of vanity: There is not _a single_ heavy armor I like. Blame me. Fashion wars 2 got me.

>

> I asked around, got to know people, and was helped with some idea on things to try out. The community is awesome. I can't stress this enough. In general, the GW2 community is _awesome_.

>

> So, after quite some testing I rolled up a Mesmer, quickly leveled up, got HP, and went into Mirage and suddenly, aaaah, my eyes were opened! Mirage Cloak! The movement. The mirrors. The evasion. Dodgedodgoedodge. Ambush attacks! Clones! Condition damage! I started to actually have fun.

> Chrono? Doesn't work for me, but I thought: It doesn't matter, you found your niche.

> Still I obviously had no idea what I was doing.

>

> Then I joined WvW. Back then I was on my condi mirage and ... look at that. I couldn't do _anything_. Way too squishy, while taking way too long to kill just about anything. The whole combination of features doesn't work _for me_. If I go for sustain I suddenly lack the damage.

> Well, other players figured it out, I can't.

> Then I discovered power mirage. Greatsword. Sword. Look at that. So much stun! It works with my guys in fractals. It works in PvE. It works in WvW. I was having fun again.

> I can actually kill some players, though I have to admit I am not particularly good in single combat. Chances are, you encounter me on my own? I'm probably gonna die. I don't care. Sure, if I die repeatedly at the same spot I might temporarily curse and leave, but that won't last.

>

> It took me about 5 months to get to this point in the game. It was some work. Repeatedly getting new gear, testing out new combinations of weapons and utilities. I was cursing the game in between for throwing so many sticks in my way. It paid off in the end.

> I am having fun.

>

> "Play who you want to play." Just as the GW2 ads claim. Awesome!

>

> Then I discover squads, join some. Get kicked.

>

> I didn't know what I did wrong: I helped in every way I could knowing what I knew. And figure this out: _It doesn't matter_.

> And then you come here ... and you find out you're being blamed. Your behavior itself isn't so much the problem, it's the fact that you did _not make the optimal choice_.

>

> You come here to discuss. And find yourself being _blamed_. Words like _entitlement_ are thrown around and _unique snowflake_. You're rightfully being demoted to a _second class citizen_, because you did not make _the optimal choice_. To some people apparently a grievous sin.

> What are the odds? 9 Professions. Each with Core and 2 Elite Specs. 27 ... let's call them classes, all in all. How many of them are meta?

> 10. (According to Vabbi Builds.)

>

> "Play who you want to play."

> .... but please do it on your own.

>

> The state of the community in GW2 is great, but things like this? It can make one sad.

 

I fully agree with that sentiment. Just because you dont fit exactly into what is known as The most efficient build of the month shouldn't mean you're a lesser player or that you're supposed to be called ignorant or poor of judgement. Meta is not the be-all end-all.

 

You can run a meta build and do very poorly because you cant take fully advantage of it, just like you can run a non meta build and achieve significant result because it fits with your general playstyle.

[Naxos.2503]

> @"LINKAZZATORE.8135" said:

> > @"Naxos.2503" said:

>

> > I can defend a gate on my own against rams, I can snipe stuff on the Walls and layer them with condis, I can face off against non-constant-evade/invulnerability. My mortar can strike at zergs well beyond their range. I'm running a viper gear kitted specifically for condi. There isn't a single skill in my setup that Doesn't give condi at long range and in a large cluster of players. I have access to several CC skills that deals Condi ontop. I fail to see where you derive how I'm not efficient, considering you havent seen me in action, Simply because I mention "Non-meta".

>

> you've just proven his point right by showing your not understanding of how the large scale fights are won.

> you play full condi when there are firebrands, scrappers and tempests with so many condi cleanses and healing that make your whole build a joke proving his point right. even scourges on full zerk can still condi cleanse by simply giving barrier.

>

> also it's really funny how he talks about large fights and you talk about rams :)

>

>

 

How does that invalidate my points exactly ? Zergs can meet in plains yes, how does that makes my mortar which can deal burning, poison, and bleed in a single shot, and then another shot of ice, and constant bleed useless ? What about big engagements in sieges ? Are these so rare ?

As I said : I dont necessarily say that I'm the Optimal solution to big engagements, I'm saying I still participate and achieve result by constantly layering condis on large cluster of players. I dont understand either of your points. Large scale chilled, vulnerabilty, poison and bleed can affect a lot of players with their cooldown and heal efficiency. It helps Breaking zergs just as much as raw damage.

 

Can scourge perform better ? Absolutely. I dont know how to play a scourge though, and so I wont. I certainly know how to play an engineer though, and I know the ins and out of that class when it comes to condis. So I use that. Can I quantifyingly say that I perform better than a firebrand or a scourge ? No. Do I say that I know how to play condi on a firebrand or a scourge ? No. Do I say that I know how to play condi on an engineer ? Yes.

 

Point ?

[Garfried.7295]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> Raid argument, and insulting to boot. Neat !

>

> I can defend a gate on my own against rams, I can snipe stuff on the Walls and layer them with condis, I can face off against non-constant-evade/invulnerability. My mortar can strike at zergs well beyond their range. I'm running a viper gear kitted specifically for condi. There isn't a single skill in my setup that Doesn't give condi at long range and in a large cluster of players. I have access to several CC skills that deals Condi ontop. I fail to see where you derive how I'm not efficient, considering you havent seen me in action, Simply because I mention "Non-meta".

>

> That gentlemen, is toxicity : Calling out Something based on mere mentions, without even seeing how it's being used. I'll not say you're ignorant as you says I am though, I prefer to say you Simply haven't seen how I play, and thus you cannot judge.

>

> Are there more efficient ways I could play ? Doubtlessly. Do I want to ? No. Lack of variety is the death of fun. WvW is tactical, you want to be tactically flexible, which means throwing "Non-Meta" builds that yield results into the mix is what tip the scales in many engagements. Meta builds are made in comparison to each other more often than they're not. Long distance condi is overlooked, Far Far Far too much.

>

> Mortar poison and ice in the middle of a zerg just before an engagement is one quick way to help your own zerg, by cutting their ability to heal, and Breaking up their zergs in various directions. Flamethrower is exellent at defending gates. Mortar in general can keep players off of Walls, Grenades are good in closed space. All of these deal condis, all of these I can use with a flexible rotation. I've given Thoughts about how I use my skills. Which is unlike many who Simply follow what's written on a page, and half understand what they're using or when they're supposed to use it. Accept that there is a place for "Non-meta" or not, I dont care. I keep on trucking, and unlike many WvWers, I actually defend what is taken. I'm not one of those who Simply follow for easy points and loot. I've successfully fended off a zerg on Redbriar with only 3 people against 20 for 8 minutes, long enough for our zerg to come, because again : that is how WvW is meant to be played.

>

> If that makes me ignorant, then Indeed, Ignorance is bliss.

 

You once again demonstrate that you dont know anything about what makes wvw build useful. Clearing rams through a gate? You will get yoirselves killed to aoes placed on the gate. Shooting things on a wall? If the enemy is on a wall they are not strong enough to fight you anyway. Last time i checked, "tactical flexibility" is a euphemism for not effective enough.

 

There are times when it is absolutely necessary to fight and wipe the enemy server. Wvw builds are tailored to do this. Whether it is roamer builds to fight other roamers or zerg builds to fight other zergs. Your build does nothing to this effect. Poison and condi in range is instacleansed, meaning your whole build can be countered by one scrapper pressing a low cooldown cleanse skill. Grenades are reflected.

You say youve given thought to how you apply your rotation, but your thinking only serves as a way to justify playing an ineffective build. Think about what makes large scale fights run the way they do. Pushing power derives from support classes sustain a forward push. Ranged pressure comes from ranged classes with high impact power damage to oneshot targets. Necros provide corrupts to remove stability and protection so the damage applies and amplifies. These things all work together; approach, corrupt and kill. Your build just kind of floats around that, without doing anything that coordinates with what the rest of the squad does.

[LINKAZZATORE.8135]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > @"LINKAZZATORE.8135" said:

> > > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> >

> > > I can defend a gate on my own against rams, I can snipe stuff on the Walls and layer them with condis, I can face off against non-constant-evade/invulnerability. My mortar can strike at zergs well beyond their range. I'm running a viper gear kitted specifically for condi. There isn't a single skill in my setup that Doesn't give condi at long range and in a large cluster of players. I have access to several CC skills that deals Condi ontop. I fail to see where you derive how I'm not efficient, considering you havent seen me in action, Simply because I mention "Non-meta".

> >

> > you've just proven his point right by showing your not understanding of how the large scale fights are won.

> > you play full condi when there are firebrands, scrappers and tempests with so many condi cleanses and healing that make your whole build a joke proving his point right. even scourges on full zerk can still condi cleanse by simply giving barrier.

> >

> > also it's really funny how he talks about large fights and you talk about rams :)

> >

> >

>

> How does that invalidate my points exactly ? Zergs can meet in plains yes, how does that makes my mortar which can deal burning, poison, and bleed in a single shot, and then another shot of ice, and constant bleed useless ? What about big engagements in sieges ? Are these so rare ?

> As I said : I dont necessarily say that I'm the Optimal solution to big engagements, I'm saying I still participate and achieve result by constantly layering condis on large cluster of players. I dont understand either of your points. Large scale chilled, vulnerabilty, poison and bleed can affect a lot of players with their cooldown and heal efficiency. It helps Breaking zergs just as much as raw damage.

>

> Can scourge perform better ? Absolutely. I dont know how to play a scourge though, and so I wont. I certainly know how to play an engineer though, and I know the ins and out of that class when it comes to condis. So I use that. Can I quantifyingly say that I perform better than a firebrand or a scourge ? No. Do I say that I know how to play condi on a firebrand or a scourge ? No. Do I say that I know how to play condi on an engineer ? Yes.

>

> Point ?

 

point is that as we said you don't understand that your condis by spamming a mortar on a target does nothing in a group scale where a sinfle f5 of a scourge does more than your entire build altogether.

 

go spam your mortar on a scapper that cleanses 300 conditions in 1m30 then let me know

[lare.5129]

I come on www make dayli, or have just fun wiht 1 or 2 mate guild members for 30-60 min.

So if someone feel intoxication around - find mates and go whit small group like me. Don't see any problem.

[Naxos.2503]

> @"Garfried.7295" said:

> > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > Raid argument, and insulting to boot. Neat !

> >

> > I can defend a gate on my own against rams, I can snipe stuff on the Walls and layer them with condis, I can face off against non-constant-evade/invulnerability. My mortar can strike at zergs well beyond their range. I'm running a viper gear kitted specifically for condi. There isn't a single skill in my setup that Doesn't give condi at long range and in a large cluster of players. I have access to several CC skills that deals Condi ontop. I fail to see where you derive how I'm not efficient, considering you havent seen me in action, Simply because I mention "Non-meta".

> >

> > That gentlemen, is toxicity : Calling out Something based on mere mentions, without even seeing how it's being used. I'll not say you're ignorant as you says I am though, I prefer to say you Simply haven't seen how I play, and thus you cannot judge.

> >

> > Are there more efficient ways I could play ? Doubtlessly. Do I want to ? No. Lack of variety is the death of fun. WvW is tactical, you want to be tactically flexible, which means throwing "Non-Meta" builds that yield results into the mix is what tip the scales in many engagements. Meta builds are made in comparison to each other more often than they're not. Long distance condi is overlooked, Far Far Far too much.

> >

> > Mortar poison and ice in the middle of a zerg just before an engagement is one quick way to help your own zerg, by cutting their ability to heal, and Breaking up their zergs in various directions. Flamethrower is exellent at defending gates. Mortar in general can keep players off of Walls, Grenades are good in closed space. All of these deal condis, all of these I can use with a flexible rotation. I've given Thoughts about how I use my skills. Which is unlike many who Simply follow what's written on a page, and half understand what they're using or when they're supposed to use it. Accept that there is a place for "Non-meta" or not, I dont care. I keep on trucking, and unlike many WvWers, I actually defend what is taken. I'm not one of those who Simply follow for easy points and loot. I've successfully fended off a zerg on Redbriar with only 3 people against 20 for 8 minutes, long enough for our zerg to come, because again : that is how WvW is meant to be played.

> >

> > If that makes me ignorant, then Indeed, Ignorance is bliss.

>

> You once again demonstrate that you dont know anything about what makes wvw build useful. Clearing rams through a gate? You will get yoirselves killed to aoes placed on the gate. Shooting things on a wall? If the enemy is on a wall they are not strong enough to fight you anyway. Last time i checked, "tactical flexibility" is a euphemism for not effective enough.

>

> There are times when it is absolutely necessary to fight and wipe the enemy server. Wvw builds are tailored to do this. Whether it is roamer builds to fight other roamers or zerg builds to fight other zergs. Your build does nothing to this effect. Poison and condi in range is instacleansed, meaning your whole build can be countered by one scrapper pressing a low cooldown cleanse skill. Grenades are reflected.

> You say youve given thought to how you apply your rotation, but your thinking only serves as a way to justify playing an ineffective build. Think about what makes large scale fights run the way they do. Pushing power derives from support classes sustain a forward push. Ranged pressure comes from ranged classes with high impact power damage to oneshot targets. Necros provide corrupts to remove stability and protection so the damage applies and amplifies. These things all work together; approach, corrupt and kill. Your build just kind of floats around that, without doing anything that coordinates with what the rest of the squad does.

 

> @"Garfried.7295" said:

> > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > Raid argument, and insulting to boot. Neat !

> >

> > I can defend a gate on my own against rams, I can snipe stuff on the Walls and layer them with condis, I can face off against non-constant-evade/invulnerability. My mortar can strike at zergs well beyond their range. I'm running a viper gear kitted specifically for condi. There isn't a single skill in my setup that Doesn't give condi at long range and in a large cluster of players. I have access to several CC skills that deals Condi ontop. I fail to see where you derive how I'm not efficient, considering you havent seen me in action, Simply because I mention "Non-meta".

> >

> > That gentlemen, is toxicity : Calling out Something based on mere mentions, without even seeing how it's being used. I'll not say you're ignorant as you says I am though, I prefer to say you Simply haven't seen how I play, and thus you cannot judge.

> >

> > Are there more efficient ways I could play ? Doubtlessly. Do I want to ? No. Lack of variety is the death of fun. WvW is tactical, you want to be tactically flexible, which means throwing "Non-Meta" builds that yield results into the mix is what tip the scales in many engagements. Meta builds are made in comparison to each other more often than they're not. Long distance condi is overlooked, Far Far Far too much.

> >

> > Mortar poison and ice in the middle of a zerg just before an engagement is one quick way to help your own zerg, by cutting their ability to heal, and Breaking up their zergs in various directions. Flamethrower is exellent at defending gates. Mortar in general can keep players off of Walls, Grenades are good in closed space. All of these deal condis, all of these I can use with a flexible rotation. I've given Thoughts about how I use my skills. Which is unlike many who Simply follow what's written on a page, and half understand what they're using or when they're supposed to use it. Accept that there is a place for "Non-meta" or not, I dont care. I keep on trucking, and unlike many WvWers, I actually defend what is taken. I'm not one of those who Simply follow for easy points and loot. I've successfully fended off a zerg on Redbriar with only 3 people against 20 for 8 minutes, long enough for our zerg to come, because again : that is how WvW is meant to be played.

> >

> > If that makes me ignorant, then Indeed, Ignorance is bliss.

>

> You once again demonstrate that you dont know anything about what makes wvw build useful. Clearing rams through a gate? You will get yoirselves killed to aoes placed on the gate. Shooting things on a wall? If the enemy is on a wall they are not strong enough to fight you anyway. Last time i checked, "tactical flexibility" is a euphemism for not effective enough.

>

> There are times when it is absolutely necessary to fight and wipe the enemy server. Wvw builds are tailored to do this. Whether it is roamer builds to fight other roamers or zerg builds to fight other zergs. Your build does nothing to this effect. Poison and condi in range is instacleansed, meaning your whole build can be countered by one scrapper pressing a low cooldown cleanse skill. Grenades are reflected.

> You say youve given thought to how you apply your rotation, but your thinking only serves as a way to justify playing an ineffective build. Think about what makes large scale fights run the way they do. Pushing power derives from support classes sustain a forward push. Ranged pressure comes from ranged classes with high impact power damage to oneshot targets. Necros provide corrupts to remove stability and protection so the damage applies and amplifies. These things all work together; approach, corrupt and kill. Your build just kind of floats around that, without doing anything that coordinates with what the rest of the squad does.

 

Indeed, and that is why I dont join the squad. I'm an add, and that's good enough for me. I've rarely gotten shot down by defending a gate with my flamethrower. Knowing the effective distance is generally good enough. Mortar arcs, which makes it difficult to counter when you defend a wall, since there arent many weapons that can target Upward with a bell projectile.

 

Again : Not saying I'm the best WvW player there is, I'm saying I get kills, I successfully defend and I've won 1v1 engagements, as well as several group engagements (that I obviously dont say I won, my build doesn't get much from groups, nor they from me aside from poison, chilled and CC).

 

The way you seem to describe is that everyone needs to roll with the exact same builds and exact same skills, to achieve maximum efficiency. That's predictible. And more to the point, this changes every time there is a new balance patch. My build is stable, it hasn't changed since Path of Fire (for holo skills) and since Heart of Thorns (for most of the other engineer skills). I can rely on it to stay the same.

 

I'm not denying that support is how zergs battles are fought and won. I'm Simply saying I dont Need to conform to meta level of efficiency to get results. I would fare far much worse if I tried to be Something that runs counter to my instincts as a player, either going for a scourge condi that I cannot play well, or for a power holo that I probably could, but find dull. I find enjoyment in playing a condi holo and that means I get creative and fight with more zeal. You probably think that's malarkey and not quantifyable, and that's fair enough. You do you. I do me. I get results either way, otherwise I wouldn't progress in WvW. I've been increasing my WvW experience steadily since I started using my build, when I would otherwise not touch it.

 

For that matter, I also use a reaper minionmaster build and generally get solid results with it when roaming. That's another thing neither of you mentionned : It isn't all about zergs. There are other roles one can fulfill that doesn't require a ton of players, and the build changes in that case. I only follow zergs when I've held an objective and the other zerg is fighting to defend their objective. Thus there is very little for me to defend against. People need to think outside of the box more.

[Valentin.7634]

So many essays.

I personally started Guild Wars 2 because i wanted to play WvW, since i played archer on a couple of other MMOs my first choice was naturally ranger.

I played it in WvW for a certain time and enjoyed before realising that the class had limited potential when it comes to team effort and providing what's necessary to your Squad. Found another class to play and never ever played ranger in WvW again because i never felt the need to play it or because i just didn't see how the class can actually be useful for the squad.

Long story short : ranger is trash and if you cry because people don't want you to play your useless class in a squad where everyone is doing what's necessary to be efficient as a group, then you're an idiot.

[Gaberen.4325]

Once upon a time I won a 1v1 with my specially crafted build, and it showed me that im good. Since that day I know that my build perform well in wvw, no matter what other players says. Sometimes ppl try to argue that it doesnt provide support or damage, especially in large scale fights. I often get kicked because other players are shortsighted. To that im just gonna say that I always top the dmg meter. Just because not everyone can theorycraft builds other than the meta, doesnt mean that they dont exist.

Toxicity is something I live with , its the same players there tend to be mad and toxic, since they dont know how good my build in reality is. I just shrug it off and keep playing outside of the squad and contributing in my own way, probably better than most of these so called "skilled players".

All in all I just wanna say that my d/d longbow spellbreaker is definitely a build which ppl tend to make fun of, but they just dont know any better.

 

 

 

[steki.1478]

> @"Gaberen.4325" said:

> Once upon a time I won a 1v1 with my specially crafted build, and it showed me that im good. Since that day I know that my build perform well in wvw, no matter what other players says. Sometimes ppl try to argue that it doesnt provide support or damage, especially in large scale fights. I often get kicked because other players are shortsighted. To that im just gonna say that I always top the dmg meter. Just because not everyone can theorycraft builds other than the meta, doesnt mean that they dont exist.

> Toxicity is something I live with , its the same players there tend to be mad and toxic, since they dont know how good my build in reality is. I just shrug it off and keep playing outside of the squad and contributing in my own way, probably better than most of these so called "skilled players".

> All in all I just wanna say that my d/d longbow spellbreaker is definitely a build which ppl tend to make fun of, but they just dont know any better.

>

>

>

 

Always top dps because always running solo. Dab on them haters \o7

[Garfried.7295]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > @"Garfried.7295" said:

> > > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > > Indeed, and that is why I dont join the squad. I'm an add, and that's good enough for me. I've rarely gotten shot down by defending a gate with my flamethrower. Knowing the effective distance is generally good enough. Mortar arcs, which makes it difficult to counter when you defend a wall, since there arent many weapons that can target Upward with a bell projectile.

> > >

> > > Again : Not saying I'm the best WvW player there is, I'm saying I get kills, I successfully defend and I've won 1v1 engagements, as well as several group engagements (that I obviously dont say I won, my build doesn't get much from groups, nor they from me aside from poison, chilled and CC).

> > >

> > > The way you seem to describe is that everyone needs to roll with the exact same builds and exact same skills, to achieve maximum efficiency. That's predictible. And more to the point, this changes every time there is a new balance patch. My build is stable, it hasn't changed since Path of Fire (for holo skills) and since Heart of Thorns (for most of the other engineer skills). I can rely on it to stay the same.

> > >

> > > I'm not denying that support is how zergs battles are fought and won. I'm Simply saying I dont Need to conform to meta level of efficiency to get results. I would fare far much worse if I tried to be Something that runs counter to my instincts as a player, either going for a scourge condi that I cannot play well, or for a power holo that I probably could, but find dull. I find enjoyment in playing a condi holo and that means I get creative and fight with more zeal. You probably think that's malarkey and not quantifyable, and that's fair enough. You do you. I do me. I get results either way, otherwise I wouldn't progress in WvW. I've been increasing my WvW experience steadily since I started using my build, when I would otherwise not touch it.

> > >

> > > For that matter, I also use a reaper minionmaster build and generally get solid results with it when roaming. That's another thing neither of you mentionned : It isn't all about zergs. There are other roles one can fulfill that doesn't require a ton of players, and the build changes in that case. I only follow zergs when I've held an objective and the other zerg is fighting to defend their objective. Thus there is very little for me to defend against. People need to think outside of the box more.

> >

> > So your build doesnt have to be changed after a balance patch because it was useless before the patch and after the patch. I fail to see the logic behind playing such a build at all.

> >

> > You're ok with being add, because you still get kills from tagging enemies in the fight. To me, this is again a euphemism for leeching. Stop rationalizing your build and admit that your playstyle is effectively leeching. If you are ok with that, so be it, i cant change that about you. But i don't want to play with people who think this way.

> >

>

> It would be leeching if I couldn't get kills on my own, which I can, thank you very much.

 

No you can't.

 

> My build is not touched by balance patches because it's balanced. Nuance. Metas purposefully exploit imbalances to achieve results not expected by developpers. That's what Meta is.

>

 

Meta is based on synergies between classes that have been balanced specifically to have this purpose. How is aoe stability, provided by firebrand, to facilitate pushing an exploit?

 

[Naxos.2503]

> @"Garfried.7295" said:

> > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > > @"Garfried.7295" said:

> > > > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > > > Indeed, and that is why I dont join the squad. I'm an add, and that's good enough for me. I've rarely gotten shot down by defending a gate with my flamethrower. Knowing the effective distance is generally good enough. Mortar arcs, which makes it difficult to counter when you defend a wall, since there arent many weapons that can target Upward with a bell projectile.

> > > >

> > > > Again : Not saying I'm the best WvW player there is, I'm saying I get kills, I successfully defend and I've won 1v1 engagements, as well as several group engagements (that I obviously dont say I won, my build doesn't get much from groups, nor they from me aside from poison, chilled and CC).

> > > >

> > > > The way you seem to describe is that everyone needs to roll with the exact same builds and exact same skills, to achieve maximum efficiency. That's predictible. And more to the point, this changes every time there is a new balance patch. My build is stable, it hasn't changed since Path of Fire (for holo skills) and since Heart of Thorns (for most of the other engineer skills). I can rely on it to stay the same.

> > > >

> > > > I'm not denying that support is how zergs battles are fought and won. I'm Simply saying I dont Need to conform to meta level of efficiency to get results. I would fare far much worse if I tried to be Something that runs counter to my instincts as a player, either going for a scourge condi that I cannot play well, or for a power holo that I probably could, but find dull. I find enjoyment in playing a condi holo and that means I get creative and fight with more zeal. You probably think that's malarkey and not quantifyable, and that's fair enough. You do you. I do me. I get results either way, otherwise I wouldn't progress in WvW. I've been increasing my WvW experience steadily since I started using my build, when I would otherwise not touch it.

> > > >

> > > > For that matter, I also use a reaper minionmaster build and generally get solid results with it when roaming. That's another thing neither of you mentionned : It isn't all about zergs. There are other roles one can fulfill that doesn't require a ton of players, and the build changes in that case. I only follow zergs when I've held an objective and the other zerg is fighting to defend their objective. Thus there is very little for me to defend against. People need to think outside of the box more.

> > >

> > > So your build doesnt have to be changed after a balance patch because it was useless before the patch and after the patch. I fail to see the logic behind playing such a build at all.

> > >

> > > You're ok with being add, because you still get kills from tagging enemies in the fight. To me, this is again a euphemism for leeching. Stop rationalizing your build and admit that your playstyle is effectively leeching. If you are ok with that, so be it, i cant change that about you. But i don't want to play with people who think this way.

> > >

> >

> > It would be leeching if I couldn't get kills on my own, which I can, thank you very much.

>

> No you can't.

 

>

 

Hahaha

 

Okay. I'll go ahead and ignore everything you say further then. Apparently you invaded my computer and can see what I'm fighting and you can tell me that I cant win fights.

 

That's beyond bold, I have to point out that's even worthy of the words you served me as your first post toward me in this thread. That's ridiculous.

 

Btw, if Meta was balanced specifically for a purpose, it wouldn't be patched out. Enough said.

[Finitura.5843]

I’m not sure on which server you are NA or EU but if you are on EU i will happily invite you to find 15/20 players that run their personally crafted builds to fight against against a 15 man meta squad i bring. We can organise it in eotm so we don’t have to be in the same matchup. Maybe this helps you understand why a meta comp will always outshine a bunch of random builds smashed together. And why commanders such as myself prefer not to have people with their own “brilliantly balanced” builds in my squads.

[LINKAZZATORE.8135]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> Btw, if Meta was balanced specifically for a purpose, it wouldn't be patched out. Enough said.

 

ahahahah so they patch only the meta and not also other builds? that's beyond stupid to say. if a build is meta is because it's the most optimal build to run and synergises with the other builds but that's too hard to understand for you.

 

the patches are to make things less stall, otherwise you'd run the same stuffs from 2012.

 

also answer finitura's message we'll gladly do a 15v15

 

[subversiontwo.7501]

What has been lost since this thread got necro'ed is that Etheri's initial post way back in 2018 can been seen as having a descriptive part ([there is] increasing toxicity) and a prescriptive part ([you should be] increasing toxicity). Personally, I like the descriptive part better. The part where he talks about how the glue between the different ways to play the game is disappearing or how the transfering is affecting community building. That background is very important to the divide between meta-zis and snowflakes. Sadly, that is also where the discussion is running stuck so we never get any good discussion beyond experienced meta and inexperienced non-meta.

 

For example, Finitura's post above is a good example where a 15-man meta squad may trample a 15-man snowflake squad, but a 15-man GvG squad tramples the meta squad and the GvG squad is likely to contain classes, builds and roles not apart of a meta. Granted, a 15-man squad may not scale up well to a 50-man squad but therein lies the interesting discussion and the back and forth between getting a foundation for teamplay and not being a team-player is fairly easily resolved. That part Etheri already laid down in a very timeless manner in the beginning: If you decide to join a squad you ought to respect the person who started it because they are not an NPC and you are not entitled to the squad, the squad is not the mode. That is given and does not really need to be discussed. His squad, his wishes, free mode, free wishes. It really is that simple.

 

I would much rather discuss the fact that these issues have appeared because Anet have been actively discouraging the players and groups that create content in the mode (roamers, guilds, commanders) and that as a result many of the players who do several of these things and can assume such perspectives are no longer here to act as voices of reason. The are becomming scarcily few. That is a loss for the mode since back when guilds set some basic standards for the core of pickup groups there was no rampant discussion about meta or not. Now there are too few people doing something both in pickup groups and between pickup groups. Most of the time you see one commander do everything either in a squad or on a map. That is the root of all this.

[Naxos.2503]

The irony with all of that is that minus 2 or 3 changes my build was meta before, it just isn't nearly as much anymore, and is for Raids. That still doesn't mean I'd join a squad, or seek engagement with a squad full of meta player (Let's face it, some of them arent. they're assumed to be.)

 

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Condi_Holosmith (Build not finished, but still makes sense)

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/engineer/holosmith/condition/

 

The change I made was to replace Bomb Kit with Laser disc, to keep my distance using Blade Burst.

 

As for those who'll point out that yes, Raids have more static targets, that's why you usually find me at sieges, more often than in the plains. Sieges are more easily bottlenecked. The point is. I'm not using a completely random build with whatever I want thrown in. Other people use similar builds.

 

 

 

To be honest, I have literally Nothing to prove to players with that type of attitude.

 

 

[Hoon.1524]

There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you...

I don't want to play meta Spellbreaker cause Bubble limits my builds because I sacrifice a whole Elite skill slot. It's especially frustrating when the bubble becomes redundant because some random bubble was thrown on top of yours when the commander called for one. You don't have to follow my logic. By your logic, I'm forced to play a different spec. That is a solution, though not really, because it forces me to play something I don't really want to.

Just to be clear I don't join a squad to get carried, just saw good players and thought, "nice, could be something good to learn there."

[Kylden Ar.3724]

I am amazed this thread is still open.

 

Necro'd, careened thru matchup discussions and into personal attacks, and the subject alone.

 

Just amazed.

 

 

[Grandark.8624]

I've been casually WvWing and the Warclaw update made me see just how much that game mode needs to die. I had commanders who were in comms saying "okay, I'm going to ping (waypoint in another borderlands) in squad chat so hopefully all the PvE players get stuck there and we can fill our BL with real players" and it's like... fucking what? Plus the fack that every fucking squad I was in took the shit out on "fucking PvE players" and team chat is flooded with "PvE shits GTFO so I can get my mount" when the borderlands DARED to be at capacity.

[Forum Moderator.7963]

As this thread has repeatedly devolved into unconstructive and attacking/insulting posts, we're going to go ahead and close it.